[icecoldduke]

All we know thus far is the maps are going to be fun, there is NG lighting in the new episode and Duke's VO are crap. TX saw what they had as of a few months ago. Game development is very fluid, content can change right up to the point of ship(as stupid as that sounds). For all we know that Bazzinga line is gone.

I would ask everyone to relax. What's the worst case scenario? The port sucks and you have to stick with eduke32? Everyone new that comes in has the revised GRP file, that has Gearbox branding all over it? The HRP removes the 3dr logo in the current version and can remove it in the new version. I don't understand what everyone is getting so worked up over.

On the subject of modding, it seems to me they will support modding; why else would they bother adding NG lighting to Build? If they wanted to do a NG episode of Duke3D, they could have just made it in UE4.

[MusicallyInspired]

How does NG lighting automatically equal modding-friendly? Maybe they just want their new episode to look good.

It is strange why they wouldn't just do something in a new engine, though. But then, that would mean a new Duke game and there are certain ramifications for that.

[icecoldduke]

MusicallyInspired, on 31 May 2016 - 06:06 AM, said:

How does NG lighting automatically equal modding-friendly? Maybe they just want their new episode to look good.

Those choose to higher a bunch of rendering engineers to add NG lighting to a 20 year old engine. If all they wanted to do was make a new NG episode of Duke3D, they could have grabbed a engine that already had NG lighting. Instead they added NG lighting to build.

My personal belief is Randy wants to berry eduke32, in his mind eduke32 isn't good for the brand. He might be able to accomplish that by showing you guys something more shinny then what TX can offer you guys. In order for that to happen, it has to moddable.

[HiPolyBash]

What you're forgetting is that...1. It's Gearbox Software and Randy Pitchford we're talking about here, and 2. They've got money to piss away.

The only thing that we can realistically anticipate is PolymerNG and what ends up happening with that as a modern renderer that supports what content creators have been requesting for years would be a God send.

[MetHy]

I think you're out of your mind icecolduke on this one.

I think the reason they added dynamic lights was : 1) Nowadays devs are completely oblivious to the concept of wall and sector shading of retro FPS. As proven in [every modern FPS reboot which includes remade levels from their original retro games, except with no shading whatsoever] and 2) like you said they want something shiny

But honestly I think the reason is mostly the first point I mentioned, so that the devs of the new episode can include lights and shading in their maps, because they just can't comprehend making lights and shading any other way. Wall and sector shading is prehistoric science to them. It's like asking someone nowadays to start a fire with sticks and stones, the base concept of that is not taught anymore, and even though it really isn't that hard, there is no way anyone will use it nowadays.

As for modding support.... Haven't they already fucked up compatibility with every single map and mod made for DN3D, including vanilla compatible ones? If they wanted modding support, this wouldn't be a good start at all. There won't be.

This is going to the be "BFG Edition" of DN3D. Except even worse.

The new maps can be good but I'm gonna have to re-shade them myself before I want to play them.

[Player Lin]

The bottom line for me: buy Gearbox Shovelware's version of port when sales, played the new shit(maybe copy those new data/Duke3D.GRP out), after completed it, just make it vanished from my HDD forever, never try to install it again.

Yeah, that's what happened with my DooM 3 BFG Edition. And I'm very fine with them.(If I want play DooM 3 mods, I would install the original DooM 3 and RoE)

= EDIT =

icecoldduke, on 31 May 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

My personal belief is Randy wants to berry eduke32, in his mind eduke32 isn't good for the brand. He might be able to accomplish that by showing you guys something more shinny then what TX can offer you guys. In order for that to happen, it has to moddable.

Maybe, but from history of Gearbox...I'm not sure it'll happens, especially the moddable part.

But again, everything is possible, so who knows, but we'll see.

[icecoldduke]

MetHy, on 31 May 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:

I think you're out of your mind icecolduke on this one.

I know I'm out of my mind, and that fact is not isolated to this specific issue .

MetHy, on 31 May 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:

I think the reason they added dynamic lights was : 1) Nowadays devs are completely oblivious to the concept of wall and sector shading of retro FPS. As proven in [every modern FPS reboot which includes remade levels from their original retro games, except with no shading whatsoever] and 2) like you said they want something shiny

But honestly I think the reason is mostly the first point I mentioned, so that the devs of the new episode can include lights and shading in their maps, because they just can't comprehend making lights and shading any other way. Wall and sector shading is prehistoric science to them. It's like asking someone nowadays to start a fire with sticks and stones.

Then why not go with UE4? If that logic was true they would go the UE4 route, most if not all content guys know UE4 very well.

MetHy, on 31 May 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:

As for modding support.... Haven't they already fucked up compatibility with every single map and mod made for DN3D, including vanilla compatible ones? If they wanted modding support, this wouldn't be a good start at all. There won't be.

It would take too much effort to go in and extend the con language to support everything TX and Hendricks have added over the years. I can see the lead engineer looking at backwards compatibility with mods and saying "who cares". I don't think this has any bearing on mod support, but that's just my opinion .

[MusicallyInspired]

Because UE4 is not Duke3D. And like I said earlier, making things in a new engine has certain ramifications. Technically it means a new Duke game. A potentially moddable one, at that.

ICD are you using speech-to-text or something or are you just that bad at using correct spelling?

[icecoldduke]

MusicallyInspired, on 31 May 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

ICD are you using speech-to-text or something or are you just that bad at using correct spelling?

While I am doing other things at the moment; I can't spell worth shit. So that excuse can only take me so far .

[MetHy]

icecoldduke, on 31 May 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

Then why not go with UE4? If that logic was true they would go the UE4 route, most if not all content guys know UE4 very well.

Because then they would have to completely remake the entire game? I think the idea here is to make something quick, but with enough new shine and new content so that people who have already bought the game several times will buy it again. Dynamic lights and a new episode is enough for that, not too big an investment and a great return. A remake would be an entirely new scale...

Or are you saying it would be possible to easily convert the entire game to Unreal Engine?

oh and besides, using UE4 probably means paying royalties for it. They seem to be very keen on keeping the entire money for them, which is the 2nd reason why none of the original add-ons will be included.

[icecoldduke]

MetHy, on 31 May 2016 - 06:45 AM, said:

Because then they would have to completely remake the entire game? I think the idea here is to make something quick, but with enough new shine and new content so that people who have already bought the game several times will buy it again. Dynamic lights and a new episode is enough for that, not too big an investment and a great return. A remake would be an entirely new scale...

Or are you saying it would be possible to easily convert the entire game to Unreal Engine?

oh and besides, using UE4 probably means paying royalties for it. They seem to be very keen on keeping the entire money for them, which is the 2nd reason why none of the original add-ons will be included.

I'm sure Gearbox has a deal with Epic that makes it so Gearbox doesn't have to deal with royalties. I'm saying there is a heavy amount of ramp up time with build. Don't underestimate how much of a pain in the ass, build is to work with on the engineering side. If all Randy wanted to do was make a new Duke3D episode, he could have shipped something in 24 months in UE4. This would have been produced graphically better results then something a hand full of rendering guys did from scratch. It would have also allowed content to start working on stuff at the start of project, rather then waiting on rendering to get everything working and stable. I think him choosing to do all this in Build, at the very least, has a added benefit from his perspective of phasing out eduke32. Which is why I think you will see a good amount of mod support in the new version.

[MetHy]

I still don't understand how you'd make a "DN3D episode in UE4". Either you make a new DN3D episode in Build, either you remake the entire game on another engine, and the latter is on a whole different scale and budget. They're working on a port, not a remake.

I don't see what benefit they would gain from wanting to replace EDuke32. And like I said, if they really wanted to completely replace it, they'd start by making sure not to break compatibility with vanilla maps and mods.

We're getting a map per month these days. Even if they want to monetize a workshop or something, they'd be losing money.

[icecoldduke]

MetHy, on 31 May 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

I still don't understand how you'd make a "DN3D episode in UE4". Either you make a new DN3D episode in Build, either you remake the entire game on another engine, and the latter is on a whole different scale and budget. They're working on a port, not a remake.

I don't see what benefit they would gain from wanting to replace EDuke32. And like I said, if they really wanted to completely replace it, they'd start by making sure not to break compatibility with vanilla maps and mods.

We're getting a map per month these days. Even if they want to monetize a workshop or something, they'd be losing money.

Valid point. I believe if all randy wanted to do was make new next-gen content in Duke3D, what were calling the new episode, I believe he would have gone the route of making a brand new Duke3D game in UE4. He could have done this in 24 months. As for everything else, I believe your wrong.

I don't believe he thinks previous mods have a quality level that warrents backwards compatibility. In order for his reboot to have backwards compatibility, he would have to use code from eduke32(which he has already shown he doesn't want to do), or he would have to have his team add the same con extensions as there are in eduke32. In order for him to do the latter, he would have to have a team go in and start testing various mods to ensure his re-written con extensions work properly. All this IMO has no bearing on whether or not mod support will be in the new duke port. I think the simple fact is he wants eduke32 to go way; this is enough of a reason for him to mandate mod support. Think about it, NG graphics with networking and modding? It's possible that's all he thinks it will take to bring you guys over to his side .

[MetHy]

icecoldduke, on 31 May 2016 - 07:18 AM, said:

reboot

It's just a port! Like Megaton! Except that, since Megaton has already been bought by everyone, they have no other choice than to give it something completely new to make it stand-out and have people buy it again.

Quote

I think the simple fact he wants eduke32 to go way, is enough of a reason for him to mandate mod support.

Does he want EDuke32 to go away? I haven't heard anything like that. AFAIK he wants HTTK to go away, but the fact that HTTK runs on EDuke32 hardly matters, it could have been Megaton devs in the same place it would have been the same scenario.

I don't believe they care at all about the community, modding support, or free sourceports in general. It's meaningless dust for them. The fact that their stuff won't be compatible with previously released content or EDuke32 is just a consequence of the way they're building their thing, I don't believe they ever asked themselves "should we make sure it is compatible, or in the contrary should we make sure it's not?". It's so meaningless in their mind that they're freely ripping off and using what they need from EDuke32 with no concern, who's gonna care and notice anyway, right?

I mean I could be wrong but that's the vibe I get from what we heard of the situation. I don't believe they give a damn, because on oneside the community is so small that on a business pov it's not worth to bother, and on another hand they don't have to worry about EDuke32 being a "competitive product" because 1) Megaton was there already, while EDuke32 existed, and it was a financial success anyway and 2) they have enough new shine and new content, that will only work with their version, that it will stand out anyway (or so they believe).

I don't believe they even thought of those 2 points I just said, it's like a given for them. I'm sorry to break your heart, and with all due respect and love I have for it, I don't believe EDuke32 and the community matter for them, so we're very far having them willingly wanting to "replace" it and see it go away. We're dust.

[Steve 64]

EDuke32 will never die as long as we are here it Lives on

[icecoldduke]

MetHy, on 31 May 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

It's just a port! Like Megaton! Except that, since Megaton has already been bought by everyone, they have no other choice than to give it something completely new to make it stand-out and have people buy it again.



Does he want EDuke32 to go away? I haven't heard anything like that. AFAIK he wants HTTK to go away, but the fact that HTTK runs on EDuke32 hardly matters, it could have been Megaton devs in the same place it would have been the same scenario.

I don't believe they care at all about the community, modding support, or free sourceports in general. It's meaningless dust for them. The fact that their stuff won't be compatible with previously released content or EDuke32 is just a consequence of the way they're building their thing, I don't believe they ever asked themselves "should we make sure it is compatible, or in the contrary should we make sure it's not?". It's so meaningless in their mind that they're freely ripping off and using what they need from EDuke32 with no concern, who's gonna care and notice anyway, right?

I mean I could be wrong but that's the vibe I get from what we heard of the situation. I don't believe they give a damn, because on oneside the community is so small that on a business pov it's not worth to bother, and on another hand they don't have to worry about EDuke32 being a "competitive product" because 1) Megaton was there already, while EDuke32 existed, and it was a financial success anyway and 2) they have enough new shine and new content, that will only work with their version, that it will stand out anyway (or so they believe).

I don't believe they even thought of those 2 points I just said, it's like a given for them. I'm sorry to break your heart, and with all due respect and love I have for it, I don't believe EDuke32 and the community matter for them, so we're very far having them willingly wanting to "replace" it and see it go away. We're dust.

I think you are wrong, but we have to agree to disagree .

[Kristian Joensen]

Gearbox Software absolutely, totally and utterly hates mods and modding. If there is any mod support at all in the new Duke3D port/version it is only because they extremely bedrugingly feel they have to have that to compete.

[pacman]

MusicallyInspired, on 31 May 2016 - 06:06 AM, said:

How does NG lighting automatically equal modding-friendly? Maybe they just want their new episode to look good.

It is strange why they wouldn't just do something in a new engine, though. But then, that would mean a new Duke game and there are certain ramifications for that.

It would suck. The appeal of this is that good old build engine, so it has the original DN3D feel, just a new episode.
Where can I read about all the info related to this? I didnt know it was actually happening. So this is what they will bring back DN3D to Steam with I guess? So if I have Megaton edition I have to rebuy it?

[Kyanos]

pacman, on 31 May 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

So if I have Megaton edition I have to rebuy it?

It's a good point, will they update Megaton or try to sell a new port on steam?

[MetHy]

I'm sure everyone will have to buy it again. Now that they own the franchise I'm sure they want their share of the sales.

I think the idea is that the new shine and the new content will be their excuse to make people pay again.

Even if they give a discount coupon to everyone who already owns Megaton, which I highly doubt will happen because Megaton sales had nothing to do with them, it will be a disaster because people will complain they have to buy it again.

pacman, on 31 May 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

It would suck. The appeal of this is that good old build engine, so it has the original DN3D feel, just a new episode.
Where can I read about all the info related to this? I didnt know it was actually happening. So this is what they will bring back DN3D to Steam with I guess? So if I have Megaton edition I have to rebuy it?

The thread got deleted but someone whose words you can trust had access to their development files for several month. Gearbox hasn't made any official statement on it yet.

[TerminX]

icecoldduke, on 31 May 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

TX saw what they had as of a few months ago.

No, that was what they had as of the end of last month. Not a few months ago. In January they gave me access to their external contractor VPN and r/w access to their Perforce, which I used to both keep tabs on what they were doing and make a couple of minor contributions of my own. The access wasn't terminated until the 20th or 21st of last month after Randy and I went at it on Twitter. I think the last contribution I made was about a week after that, when one of the mappers messaged me on Skype in need of a m32script to fix a problem that had crept into his maps--no sense being a dickhole to someone you like just because their paychecks come from someone you disagree with.

You guys are way off the mark regarding the mappers; they know how to make Build maps very well, actually. The mappers have clearly put a lot of love into what they're doing.

[MetHy]

I have a hard time picturing professional modern level designers trying to Build Doom-era FPS levels. Every modern FPS who claims to be a "retro throwback" is miles off the hook in terms of level design, and the farthest they went back in time in that regard was Painkiller or Serious Sam style (Haven't played new Doom though). Also every "retro FPS level easter egg" in a modern game was a disaster if you ask me.

Even if I was told the mapping was outsourced, since I don't know to whom, it's still just "Gearbox" in my mind. Plus, they use dynamic lights, so unless that's just for effects like weapons and projectiles, the design already stray away from Doom era.

I honestly hope the new episode is great, but I find it hard to picture.

[trustn0!]

TerminX, on 31 May 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

You guys are way off the mark regarding the mappers; they know how to make Build maps very well, actually. The mappers have clearly put a lot of love into what they're doing.

All the more reason to sort things out.
I'm just hoping Randy understands this as well

Make Duke Great Again!

[MusicallyInspired]

Who says it's Gearbox employees doing the mapping? For all we know it's someone else outsourced to do them. I have no idea, I'm just saying...

[Tea Monster]

Hmmmm... where would they go to find a lot of talented BUILD mappers... I wonder....

[Hendricks266]

The new maps are what I'm excited about. It's fun to see all the speculation from you guys, but this is one thing Gearbox got right. Very right.

[pacman]

Hendricks266, on 31 May 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

The new maps are what I'm excited about. It's fun to see all the speculation from you guys, but this is one thing Gearbox got right. Very right.

How do you know? Did they hire people from the community? I would like some new roch maps

Anyway, if the new port doesn't support the old maps it will be a disaster. One of the coolest features of Megaton was easily downloading maps from the workshop and playing them with friends, if they get rid of this then it will be over as soon as you finish the new episode. No one will play the game since there will be 0 maps compatible with the new port.
It's an insult to all those years of amazing work put into making user maps. I hope they are not stupid enough to commit such a big mistake.

[Lunick]

pacman, on 31 May 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

How do you know? Did they hire people from the community? I would like some new roch maps

Clearly Hendricks is in bed with Gearbox and has been rallying all the nasty things people have been saying straight to Randy Pitchfork's inbox. Or maybe it is because he is/was working on HTTKC

pacman, on 31 May 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

Anyway, if the new port doesn't support the old maps it will be a disaster. One of the coolest features of Megaton was easily downloading maps from the workshop and playing them with friends, if they get rid of this then it will be over as soon as you finish the new episode. No one will play the game since there will be 0 maps compatible with the new port.
It's an insult to all those years of amazing work put into making user maps. I hope they are not stupid enough to commit such a big mistake.

I don't think it was confirmed anywhere that old maps wouldn't work. I believe it was con file mods that would be incompatible.

This thread is stupid.

[Jimmy]

icecoldduke, on 31 May 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

I don't understand what everyone is getting so worked up over.

Because it's fucking Gearbox Shovelware, who has demonstrated time and time again that they have no qualms with releasing subpar or poor quality products. Nobody is even fucking playing Battleborn. It's doing worse than Bombshell. Not to mention the ongoing Garland Screwjob where they're trying to wrestle away HTTKC.

Kristian Joensen, on 31 May 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

Gearbox Software absolutely, totally and utterly hates mods and modding. If there is any mod support at all in the new Duke3D port/version it is only because they extremely bedrugingly feel they have to have that to compete.

Or because they're totally incapable of removing this ability from the game.

MetHy, on 31 May 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

I have a hard time picturing professional modern level designers trying to Build Doom-era FPS levels. Every modern FPS who claims to be a "retro throwback" is miles off the hook in terms of level design, and the farthest they went back in time in that regard was Painkiller or Serious Sam style (Haven't played new Doom though). Also every "retro FPS level easter egg" in a modern game was a disaster if you ask me.

No Rest for the Living for Doom 2 was excellent, somewhat modern but comparable to numerous other high quality Doom episodes released before 2000.

[deuxsonic]

Shovelware is akin to packing material. It fills the disc and is unwanted software. It's a quantity thing as though they are piling it on by the shovelful. I think the issue people have with Gearbox stuff is not an issue of quantity (if anything it's the opposite) but rather of quality, so trashware I think is what you mean.