[icecoldduke]

Mblackwell, on 02 June 2016 - 07:42 PM, said:

You aren't shipping titles on Unity, you are shipping Unity.

I'm aware but you have to remember I am only one person, and I need to narrow the scope of the project so I can finish it. . Remember I want to ship.

[Spiker]

I find it funny that some people over here seem to have the "loss syndrome" where in fact nothing is lost for them, there are only gains. But it seems some of them would rather put it into dust than make this thing great as possible if it doesn't match their expectations.

[Danukem]

icecoldduke, on 02 June 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

I'm aware but you have to remember I am only one person, and I need to narrow the scope of the project so I can finish it. . Remember I want to ship.

All the more reason to stop wasting your energy by picking fights with the community. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to "ship" if you just guaranteed support for vertex animation so as not to break everything, and then let the content creators/curators worry about how best to use it (or not use it) for future projects?

[icecoldduke]

Trooper Dan, on 02 June 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

All the more reason to stop wasting your energy by picking fights with the community. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to "ship" if you just guaranteed support for vertex animation so as not to break everything, and then let the content creators/curators worry about how best to use it (or not use it) for future projects?

I want the communities support. A lot of assets are going to have to be updated, and I need everyone to get on board. It might easier initially to support vertex animation, but in the long run it won't. In the long run, it will best if hrp assets got remade to support NG standards. I can add vertex animation in at a later time, but for right now I need the communities help and support for doing a NG HRP. I would like to keep the scope narrow, rather then "support everything out of the box", lets the renderer on its feet, with a NG HRP and then expand support to every HRP mod that is currently out there.

[Mblackwell]

But that won't happen. You'll get one showcase release I'm sure with a few assets, but nothing like the complete HRP redone.
That's the part that will take years if it ever gets done at all.
Supporting things that are already supported on the other hand gives you a bigger inroad and makes your renderer much more useful to people.

[icecoldduke]

Mblackwell, on 02 June 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

But that won't happen. You'll get one showcase release I'm sure with a few assets, but nothing like the complete HRP redone.
That's the part that will take years if it ever gets done at all.

We'll can we then look at the assets we have and do the following:

• See which assets we can keep that don't need vertex animation and oould be modified to meet NG quality levels, with little to no effort.
  
• See what assets we can switch over skeletal assets without issues. Tea Monster is doing some of that now, if you want to particpate in this effort please contact him.
  
• Then make a list of what assets are going to get screwed by not having vertex animation and see were we are.

[Mblackwell]

And then everyone will download the separate NGHRP since PolymerNG couldn't just load the assets people already have downloaded, and they'll be stuck with large set of files that are worthless except in the one renderer.

[Danukem]

icecoldduke, on 02 June 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

I want the communities support. A lot of assets are going to have to be updated, and I need everyone to get on board. It might easier initially to support vertex animation, but in the long run it won't. In the long run, it will best if hrp assets got remade to support NG standards. I can add vertex animation in at a later time, but for right now I need the communities help and support for doing a NG hrp, and doing it the correct way.

So you in fact could add vertex animation, but you won't because you want to encourage the creation of content that meets NG standards. What you don't get is that we have nothing against skeletal animation or meeting NG standards in general. The problem is that there is a huge amount of content that doesn't meet your standards, and it would be a huge amount of work to change it over. It's not just the HRP, it's pretty much every project released in the last 10 years that contains models. Again, I would be perfectly happy to never use vertex animation ever again. But it exists in various projects I have released, some very recent (e.g. Duke Forces which was just released last month and even had an article in PC Gamer). These projects run in Polymer, and they would not work in your renderer, because you want to punish people for using vertex animation. Nevermind that some of us aren't modelers and don't have the technical ability to convert the models, nevermind that these projects would probably run just fine in PolymerNG even with vertex animation, because unlike the HRP, they don't have ridiculous fan models with bazilians of vertices and hundreds of models in every scene.

[MusicallyInspired]

icecoldduke, on 02 June 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

I would like to keep the scope narrow, rather then "support everything out of the box", lets the renderer on its feet, with a NG HRP and then expand support to every HRP mod that is currently out there.

This is a little more acceptable and a far cry from what you were initially suggesting which gave the impression that you didn't want to implement certain things at all. There was no down-the-road talk about SOS.

[icecoldduke]

MusicallyInspired, on 02 June 2016 - 08:15 PM, said:

This is fine and a far cry from what you were initially suggesting which gave the impression that you didn't want to implement certain things at all. There was no down-the-road talk about SOS.

If I wasn't clear on that, thats my fault. Further I would like to get a full art team together to make a NG remake of E1L1. This project would include a team who's sole job is getting content ready for the next gen renderer, add lights, material effects etc etc. I think getting some concept art going for the project would be a good start. Another good start would having you guys go into the HRP and figure out what needs to be done, and figuring out how long it will take.

[MusicallyInspired]

I'm excited to see what people come up with for that.

[Fox]

If you want to take things seriously with the HRP, you should start over. The HRP lacked art direction, and it's primary focus was to get all tiles done. The result is a mixture of art with varying quality and style.

[Mblackwell]

I'm sure if there were people to (re)do it someone like LeoD would want to issue style guidelines.

[Tea Monster]

Why are all the people who have never, and probably will never use any of these features, all jumping up and down in this thread demanding a voice in how it should be developed?

[TerminX]

Tea Monster, on 02 June 2016 - 11:34 PM, said:

Why are all the people who have never, and probably will never use any of these features, all jumping up and down in this thread demanding a voice in how it should be developed?

Like who? Most of the people I see expressing concerns are people who make mods. These are important things to get right.

[Spiker]

Apart from DN Eternity were there any other HRP mods?

[Tea Monster]

Spiker - Not many.

TerminX - None of them use any next-gen features though. Most of them are dead-set against it. It would be the same thing as if there was a push to revamp the classic renderer and me and LeoD were in there raging about issues with models.

On that note - a lot of these arguments would be moot if the bugs with the existing Polymost and Polymer renderers were fixed. I think that a lot of people are seeing NG as replacing everything else and that is why they are so invested in it.

I'm not up on the Polymost bugs - I think there is a skybox issue, I'm not sure about the rest. There are multiple issues with Polymer though that need addressing. If those were fixed and they got everything working as intended, then I think that would take the heat off of NG - which isn't designed to run any of that stuff and shouldn't be expected to.

[Danukem]

Tea Monster, on 03 June 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

Spiker - Not many.

The proper question is, how many mods use models with vertex animation? So, let's see...every major mod I have every released with the exception of WGR2 (although I think it is notable that I did go to the trouble of scripting a number of polymer light features for that). Also, every mod that uses models, which includes a lot of JBlade's stuff, Mblackwell's stuff, lot of guys who aren't around at the moment but made cool stuff... Remember Muelsa who made the awesome Duke Bike mod and also the Super Trooper with incredible AI and like a gillion animations? And the Jurassic Park TC (that one didn't get released, but still, really amazing work). Jesus, I could just go through my hard drive and list of a dozen or more. And it goes well beyond the HRP. A lot of the models we use don't come from that. Just because you didn't hear about something or play it doesn't mean it's unimportant. Even unreleased projects can have an important role -- I'm thinking of a very promising Aliens TC with some bitchin' models, HR textures, maps with spotlights and shit...that content could be developed again if it is picked up. The list goes on and on.

Tea Monster, on 03 June 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

TerminX - None of them use any next-gen features though.

Hard to use what doesn't exist in Eduke32. Unless you mean things like Polymer lights and spec/detail/etc. maps on models, which of course a lot of us do use.

Tea Monster, on 03 June 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

Most of them are dead-set against it. It would be the same thing as if there was a push to revamp the classic renderer and me and LeoD were in there raging about issues with models.

Who are you talking about here? We would love to use next-gen features, we just don't want to see all of our work broken in the new renderer and the community split up. I really respect your work and you have made some great contributions to projects I have worked on, but I don't understand why you say things like this.

If PolymerNG does not support existing content (with possible minor exceptions, of which vertex animation is definitely not one of), then it won't become part of the main EDuke32 branch. This has been stated multiple times by not only the EDuke32 developers, but in principle it was very clearly articulated by icecoldduke himself only a few days ago. The only reason that icecoldduke has offered for resisting the inclusion of vertex animation on models is that the abuse of it will hurt performance. Think about that: it has no bearing on the creation of next-gen content at all. He could add support for the animation used on all the existing models used by EDuke32 without it harming a new HRP or Duke 3D remake in any way. But I guess he's afraid that people won't be interested in making new content if they can keep using the old content, or will blame him if the old content drags down performance. That shows a severe lack of confidence in you and other potential new content creators.

[Micky C]

Spiker, on 02 June 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

Apart from DN Eternity were there any other HRP mods?

I wouldn't call them HRP mods explicitly, but I'm sure there are a large bunch of mods and TCs that use high res content or models.

Icecoldduke: I'm willing to bet that the core problem isn't the amount of spare time you have, or bottlenecks in the renderer per se, the problem is quite simply that your goals don't align with that of the community. I'm sure your technical points make a lot of sense. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a super-fast modern renderer full of fancy effects. The issue the community has is that polymerNG is pretty much the community's only chance of getting a a definitive, all-in-on GL renderer that's good for everything. Everything from the fancy effects you want, right down to an almost pure classic experience. Polymost has no effects and the odd bug, no TROR. Polymer has terrible framerate, issues with multiple skies, the showview command, and draw distance.

Do you have a valid argument against wanting to have this definitive GL renderer? Will it take noticeably more time or effort to support these 'legacy' features like vertex animation? Will it make new mods that do use features like skeletal animation slower? If the answer to these questions is no, then I'm afraid you're on thin ground as these seem to be the main defense of your position.

[Kyanos]

MD3_MAX_VERTICES = 8192    #4096
MD3_MAX_TRIANGLES = 16384  #8192  

Some of those HRP models were made with an exporter reworked to double the vertices limit.

[MusicallyInspired]

Tea Monster, on 02 June 2016 - 11:34 PM, said:

Why are all the people who have never, and probably will never use any of these features, all jumping up and down in this thread demanding a voice in how it should be developed?

You're talking about me, right? I haven't and probably won't be making any enhanced visual content for any NG renderer let alone current ones. Like I said before, this new renderer isn't just for content developers, it's for users. I'm a user. I care about how I can use the content. As much as I respect the work you do and share your strong desire to see NG Duke content in some capacity, all I see is you guys being selfish about it like this new renderer belongs to and is being made for you and you alone. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all you do is modeling, correct? I say that as if it's a small feat, that's not what I mean please don't take offense. You don't make entire mods do you? Do you map? I do map every now and then. I've released nothing but I don't have to to enjoy playing around with it and that actually kind of makes me a content developer.

I care how Build features affect map creation and the aesthetic I'd be looking for. If these features are broken I can't do the things I know I could be doing in Polymer or classic. Mostly Polymer. (again, I don't use Polymost at all). I'd love to map for PolymerNG with an HRPNG but if it's going to break things I'd otherwise have fun playing around with that I could do in Polymer or Classic or even Polymost, then I won't use it. Why split the community down the middle like this? What's to gain? You say we're being regressive and stuck in the past. I say you're missing the point entirely. I love new content. Implement whatever new features you want. I'm very excited to see what you guys can create that can take full advantage of it! But I want the classic stuff to work too. Is that so much to ask? My opinion is not invalid because I don't create NG content and I resent the implication.

Quote

On that note - a lot of these arguments would be moot if the bugs with the existing Polymost and Polymer renderers were fixed. I think that a lot of people are seeing NG as replacing everything else and that is why they are so invested in it.

No no no. I'm not content with settling with using Polymer if PolymerNG is going to have a nicer implementation of NG effects. Why should we be left behind and forced to use older renderers? There's room for the both of us.

Quote

I'm not up on the Polymost bugs - I think there is a skybox issue, I'm not sure about the rest. There are multiple issues with Polymer though that need addressing. If those were fixed and they got everything working as intended, then I think that would take the heat off of NG - which isn't designed to run any of that stuff and shouldn't be expected to.

Rubbish. If the Polymer bugs were fixed it'd still be inferior to PolymerNG which is slated to support effects and capabilities that Polymer does not. What happens to those of us that want to take advantage of that? Tough luck? If we can't roll with the punches (your punches) we should be stuck in the past where we belong?

Duke Nukem 3D wasn't designed to have high resolution textures and yet it plays nicely in Polymer with the HRP so that argument is completely invalid as well.

[Kyanos]

icecoldduke, on 02 June 2016 - 08:19 PM, said:

If I wasn't clear on that, thats my fault. Further I would like to get a full art team together to make a NG remake of E1L1. This project would include a team who's sole job is getting content ready for the next gen renderer, add lights, material effects etc etc. I think getting some concept art going for the project would be a good start. Another good start would having you guys go into the HRP and figure out what needs to be done, and figuring out how long it will take.

I missed this post, was a page behind. So the project has changed from a new renderer to a new renderer and a new HRP + modified original maps and new artistic concepts. Like a reloaded type thing, instead of a eduke32 type thing. I'm ok with that, you don't need vert animations for that, go nuts man have fun with your project.

[Kyanos]

I bet you can't guess what game engine that is

[icecoldduke]

Micky C, on 03 June 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:

Icecoldduke: I'm willing to bet that the core problem isn't the amount of spare time you have, or bottlenecks in the renderer per se, the problem is quite simply that your goals don't align with that of the community. I'm sure your technical points make a lot of sense. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a super-fast modern renderer full of fancy effects. The issue the community has is that polymerNG is pretty much the community's only chance of getting a a definitive, all-in-on GL renderer that's good for everything. Everything from the fancy effects you want, right down to an almost pure classic experience. Polymost has no effects and the odd bug, no TROR. Polymer has terrible framerate, issues with multiple skies, the showview command, and draw distance.

This is a good point. I will accept that the community wants a all in one renderer that fixes the bugs that exist in Polymer and Polymost. I have no problems delivering on that goal, this includes vertex animation and all of that, but I need the communities support. My goal with PolymerNG has always been a Duke Nukem 3D reloaded type project. The only legal way we can maybe such a project is in the build engine. There advantages to delivering on the PolymerNG reloaded project before adding support for other HRP mods. If we can resurrect the core Duke Nukem 3D IP, in build, with next generation graphics, I believe we can bring more people(new and old) to this community.

This means more content developers and hopefully more engineers. Some one said we are only getting 12 new maps a year. This is unacceptable, we need more new content a year. Here is what I'm purposing. Phase 1: Let's get the PolymerNG Duke Nukem reloaded project on its feet. Just a couple maps, something to show gamasutra, and other gamedev sites. Phase 2: Go in and support the older mods with vertex animation and fix various bugs that have caused you guys nightmares over the past 10 years. I'm willing to have vertex animation mixed with NG effects on one condition. If people come and post "my framerate sucks ass", and you realize they are using egregious amounts of vertex animated objects(like the guy that complained that eduke32 was taking up 4gb of memory), that you guys very angrily tell them to read the FAQ. I will not be able to support people doing things the wrong way.

If this is acceptable, I would like to start getting a team together to do Phase 1 of PolymerNG which is the reloaded style project. If you are not a content creator, could some of you find the old content guys and see if they are willing to join this project? I need content guys, all varying amounts of skill are welcome.

[Kyanos]

If you can give me a win7 build and tell me what file format you want models in, I may be able to script up some batch conversions quick enough to get you one model per frame animations def'd in and working, it's a simple starting point and will cut out most of your vert animation issues really fast, you'll need a better modeller than me to do skeletons and new animations though.

[MusicallyInspired]

Awesome. I am satiated.

[icecoldduke]

Drek, on 03 June 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

If you can give me a win7 build and tell me what file format you want models in, I may be able to script up some batch conversions quick enough to get you one model per frame animations def'd in and working, it's a simple starting point and will cut out most of your vert animation issues really fast, you'll need a better modeller than me to do skeletons and new animations though.

I'd like all new models to be in the FBX format(it doesn't really matter, since it just gets converted to the model payload format anyway). I'll work on getting you guys Win64(Win7/8) x64 builds this weekend.

[Steveeeie]

icecoldduke, on 02 June 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

Not if we can find some content developers to do it. In my mind PolymerNG is going to be for NG content. I'm going to have to support everything I do when it's complete and I can forsee a bunch of support issues with vertex animation. I don't see any good coming from it, which is why I'm against having vertex animation support. I know artists like it, but it's a engineering nightmare. My goal with PolymerNG is to make a high performance renderer, you guys know this, and I need content guys that are willing to make next gen content to replace the current HRP for PolymerNG to fully take advantage of the renderer.

You guys complain about performance all the time. Look up how many topics on this forum are complaining about Polymer and Polymost performance. The solutions I'm purposing help allieviate a huge concern that you guys have posted about for long time.

I didn't know everyone was going to be so attached to vertex animation . It's not a build feature and most NG engine's don't support it. If I say I will support morph targets in the future can you guys live with that?

I would also like to get a NG HRP team started, I know one person is currently helping out with that. Is there anyone else right now that would interested in joining?

Again, you are not answering my question, I am not a supporter of vertex animation, my issue is there seems to be no plans for any kind of prop animation.

[icecoldduke]

Steveeeie, on 03 June 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

Again, you are not answering my question, I am not a supporter of vertex animation, my issue is there seems to be no plans for any kind of prop animation.

Please see two posts above .

[Steveeeie]

LeoD, on 02 June 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

Which simply won't happen.
15 years of HRP -> still not complete

I'm with tea monster, this is because its way too tricky to make things for.

if we got a decent model format and sensible material and animation tools I would personally be all over it.