[ReaperMan]

Trooper Dan, on 30 June 2019 - 04:00 PM, said:

johnnythewolf can't respond to us now and won't be around any more, unless there is a surprising turnabout in the situation. In my opinion, this isn't about whether we like him, it's about having a forum that's not dysfunctional.

I miss the old days... just having them round till they got bored and left.

[Forge]

ReaperMan, on 30 June 2019 - 05:41 PM, said:

I miss the old days.

I have Spear of Destiny on 3.5 floppy, dosbox, & an external usb disk drive.

Unfortunately, our friend thrived on conflict. The stay here was quite enjoyable because nobody backed down.

[Ninety-Six]

Such a shame. Honestly it's not even about him being left-leaning, at least for me. It was more that his reasoning was always insane and twisted, how he would twist words from other posters and completely overreact, straight-up attack people even if they were being nice to him solely because they did not share his views, and of course, how he felt the need to inject politics into completely unrelated topics.

It's not that he was a lefty. It's because he confused his political beliefs with moral superiority and that gave him extra permissions to just be a dick. We do have a few members present who are similar but even they know when to drop something. Johnny never did.

It's always a tragedy to see a member of any forum turn out that way. I would have rather enjoyed peaceful debates, but when someone decides to accuse people of being "mosque shooters", there is no such thing as "peaceful."

[PokeThePower]

Perhaps for the next brave adventurer a new forum permissions group can be setup where they can no longer read or post in any forum BUT the Outhouse until they've demonstrated a sense of humor about their serious business thoughts.

[Forge]

WorkWandaWork, on 30 June 2019 - 09:15 PM, said:

Perhaps for the next brave adventurer a new forum permissions group can be setup where they can no longer read or post in any forum BUT the Outhouse until they've demonstrated a sense of humor about their serious business thoughts.

so.......like a Camp to learn Concentration?

[PokeThePower]

I was thinking more like the inverse of Hotel California.

[Ninety-Six]

WorkWandaWork, on 30 June 2019 - 10:00 PM, said:

I was thinking more like the inverse of Hotel California.

Cardboard Box Kentucky?

[Danukem]

WorkWandaWork, on 30 June 2019 - 10:00 PM, said:

I was thinking more like the inverse of Hotel California.

You can leave but you can never check out?

[PokeThePower]

Trooper Dan, on 30 June 2019 - 10:04 PM, said:

You can leave but you can never check out?

They can #WalkAway any time but can't check their account out of the outhouse.

[Sledgehammer]

WorkWandaWork, on 29 June 2019 - 04:39 PM, said:

13% of me was responsible for 50% of the purchases of the new Wolfenstein game.

Trooper Dan, on 30 June 2019 - 04:00 PM, said:

but not the kind of troll who is doing it for laughs.

Isn't it what makes trolls actual trolls? I mean, they always do it for laughs or plain attention. I'm not a doctor, but if he's serious about what he says I wouldn't be surprised if the guy is suffering from mental illness, otherwise he's incredibly competent and incompetent at the same time for a troll. If he's serious he hardly can be called a troll.

[Aristotle Gumball]

I have friends from years ago who have over time turned into very similar people as johnny. They don't necessarily go out and seek trouble, but their logic (or lack thereof) is extremely similar. Yeah, mental illness is sometimes exhibited on the internet. He also indicated he has to work a shitty job or did in the past, despite his amazingly useful liberal arts degree. That's where the anger came from, most likely. I hope the guy finds a good therapist.

[Sledgehammer]

It's more than that, the worst comes from self-hating attitude and inferiority complex in general. To treat such illness you need a very competent therapist which are rare to find (usually those problems are coming from childhood), though the biggest problem is that you would have to be concerned about own health yourself since mental illness treatment is not enforced. Various people I know were afraid to go to therapists, even when they were fully aware that they had mental problems.

However, a support from a loving person with a common sense would help too, but this person would have to be very caring and empathic, such people aren't easy to find nowadays.

thricecursed, on 30 June 2019 - 11:57 PM, said:

amazingly useful liberal arts degree

[Aristotle Gumball]

Sledgehammer, on 01 July 2019 - 12:08 AM, said:

It's more than that

I know, but let's not psychoanalyze a person who isn't here anymore. He's gone and that's that (hopefully).

I agree with everything you've said, though. Including the idea that he probably was never trolling.

[Sledgehammer]

I wasn't talking about someone specific in this post (the one that was answer to yours).

[Aristotle Gumball]

Sledgehammer, on 01 July 2019 - 12:30 AM, said:

I wasn't talking about someone specific in this post.

Sorry. I guess it's all a bit depressing for me personally, but whatever. Weirdest Wolfenstein thread ever.

[Ninety-Six]

[DisgustedGrunt]

Ninety-Six, on 01 July 2019 - 12:46 AM, said:

*Super 3-D Hitler's Castle.

[Aristotle Gumball]

How id built Wolfenstein 3D using Commander Keen tech

[Ninety-Six]

That went into a lot more technical detail than I thought it would. It kinda went over my head.

[Zaxx]

Ninety-Six, on 30 June 2019 - 07:27 PM, said:

Honestly it's not even about him being left-leaning, at least for me.

Sorry for getting back to this... but dude, if that guy is a leftist then I'm giving back my lefty badge. What you actually saw there was the ramblings of a confused, frustrated individual and stuff I'd call radical ideology. Can that come from the left? Of course and chances are it did but radical ideology or a fringe group with radical ideology does not equal "the left", it's just the result of misguided political activism usually. A good example of that would be modern feminism: the original feminist ideology succeeded and that managed to empty out feminist activism so today if a feminist wants to make a living out of being a feminist then the only way of doing that is by going radical. Feminism was successful so women are not held back by a patriarchic society these days? Okay, then let's talk about misogyny in video games, females being treated as sexual objects in media and just generally try to artifically speed up the natural process of the success of feminism gradually changing society. I think you get the idea.

I do find it interesting how Johnny thinks that MachineGames treated nazis too well though because I'm kind of on the opposite opinion. The way I see it the new Wolf games show us an exaggerated caricature of the nazis, they are just evil, cruel, basically one dimensional comic book villains. Now, I don't really have a problem with that because Wolf is an FPS where you're supposed to shoot the bad guys but whenever I see nazis being portrayed this way I can't help but think about how much we're still missing the point. The nazis weren't evil villains, they were just normal people doing their job: they woke up every day, went to work, carried out their duties and a lot of them were hard working, honorable people trying to get ahead in life. How can people like that be viewed as the villains who want to destroy the free world? All it takes is a society that's a bit desperate and bitter, an economy that's going to shit and some smart people who want to get advantage of that with propaganda. You show them the enemy and tell them that it was those guys who caused them misfortune, you tell them that there is a way out of the shit if they follow your lead, you give them jobs in your weapons factories. Once they get some money and the economy starts to climb suddenly the weird militaristic attitude stops being that weird, the lies become truths because "that guy did a lot of good for us, he sure as shit knows what he's talking about"and they'll fall in line and follow. That's what's really terrifying, not some comic book villains torturing people: that it happened a few times throughout history, that it can happen again and that there is a tried-and-true method of making it happen again.

But hey, at least we can laugh on old Hitler shitting himself and shooting random people... because that's a lot less disturbing than viewing him as a smart man who knew how to manipulate people on a genius level.

[Ninety-Six]

Zaxx, on 03 July 2019 - 08:04 PM, said:

Sorry for getting back to this... but dude, if that guy is a leftist then I'm giving back my lefty badge. What you actually saw there was the ramblings of a confused, frustrated individual and stuff I'd call radical ideology.

I agree. The reason I said that in the first place was pretty much this right here. I was stating that my problems with Johnny were not because he was left-leaning. There are a few members on here who I know tend to lean left, such as you and thrice. And I have no issue with either of you. My problems with Johnny were the rest of the things I said, which basically amounted to him being incapable of reasoned, rational, and peaceful debate with members who do not share his opinion.

That's what my post was saying. I apologize if it came off as otherwise. I tend to have that problem.

Zaxx, on 03 July 2019 - 08:04 PM, said:

I do find it interesting how Johnny thinks that MachineGames treated nazis too well though because I'm kind of on the opposite opinion. The way I see it the new Wolf games show us an exaggerated caricature of the nazis, they are just evil, cruel, basically one dimensional comic book villains. Now, I don't really have a problem with that because Wolf is an FPS where you're supposed to shoot the bad guys but whenever I see nazis being portrayed this way I can't help but think about how much we're still missing the point. The nazis weren't evil villains, they were just normal people doing their job: they woke up every day, went to work, carried out their duties and a lot of them were hard working, honorable people trying to get ahead in life. How can people like that be viewed as the villains who want to destroy the free world? All it takes is a society that's a bit desperate and bitter, an economy that's going to shit and some smart people who want to get advantage of that with propaganda. You show them the enemy and tell them that it was those guys who caused them misfortune, you tell them that there is a way out of the shit if they follow your lead, you give them jobs in your weapons factories. Once they get some money and the economy starts to climb suddenly the weird militaristic attitude stops being that weird, the lies become truths because "that guy did a lot of good for us, he sure as shit knows what he's talking about"and they'll fall in line and follow. That's what's really terrifying, not some comic book villains torturing people: that it happened a few times throughout history, that it can happen again and that there is a tried-and-true method of making it happen again.

But hey, at least we can laugh on old Hitler shitting himself and shooting random people... because that's a lot less disturbing than viewing him as a smart man who knew how to manipulate people on a genius level.

I also agree on this front. One of the most insulting things I ever read was a review for that "Downfall" movie (I think that's what it was called; the one with the famous Hitler rant scene that got memed into oblivion). It condemned it for showing a human side to Hitler. Even though, factually speaking, Hitler was a human.

He was not some demon from Hell let loose upon the earth for the sole sake of ravishing it. He was a man with a terrible, terrible motive with even worse actions. But still, a man. The tendency for most people to avoid looking at people like that, not just Hitler, but other dictators to even murderers as just monsters is a terrible trap to set yourself in. If you dehumanize people like that, it's easy to say to yourself "that could never be me because I'm not a monster!" As opposed to seeing them for what they were and learning from their mistakes; constantly checking yourself to make sure you don't become like them or fall in line with them.

It's a lesson sadly most people don't want to learn, because it forces them to take a look at their own darker natures and confront them.



To MachineGames' credit, unlike most games with Nazis they didn't shy away from the atrocities; to paraphrase a certain Youtuber, "they made hating Nazis feel fresh again." Death camps, the Asylum slaughter, allying with the KKK, the mere presence of Deathshead, really any of the Berlin public announcements, etc.

Most games (most media, really) don't dive into those sort of uncomfortable topics. MG did a pretty good job painting an idea of what the world would look like if the Nazis had won. Except robots.


I do agree that it would be great if they went further and explored how easy it is to fall for the Nazi's line of reasoning, or how one could end up developing the kind of beliefs that fuel the Nazis. One of the greatest lines I think I've ever heard from any medium came from the Lunar Base chapter in TNO; it was during the flashback to Camp Belica between Blazkowicz and Set Roth: "...in everything there must be doubt. Otherwise there's no room to question. To learn. This place. This is the fruit of unquestioned, ferocious conviction. This is where absolute certainty leads."

That's a great line precisely because it touches on that topic.


MG probably could have gone a bit further, but honestly I don't think by too much. This is, as you said, an action-FPS. As cutscene-heavy as MG's Wolfenstein games get, I think focusing on that alongside focusing on the Nazis themselves could make the narratives a bit more unfocused. That sort of thing may honestly be better for a post-Nazi era, sort of like where Youngblood is going. Except instead of being set inside Nazi territory, it could be set in a place free of them. Perhaps in an ironic twist, non-Nazis could start developing scapegoating tendencies on another group of people (probably not Jews), somehow blaming them for the Nazis or the damage from the war or whatever. Something small like that, but that's usually where that sort of thing starts.


But I'm just spitballing. That sort of thing may not be fit for Wolfenstein.

[----]

I have one question to the people here on Duke4:

Does anybody plan to get this game on release day and plan to play it solo (with AI)?

I am currently not 100% sure if I should get the game (because I am not interested in playing it coop, I have other games for mp). I don't trust most reviews as they are written by imbeciles but I trust most people and their tastes here on Duke4 when it comes to shooters of an IP from the early days of shooters.

[Ninety-Six]

I couldn't get it on release day even if I wanted to. I'll probably get it at some point just to complete the Wolfenstein collection, and will play it solo because I don't have any FPS-inclined friends.

[Zaxx]

I'm a bit worried about Youngblood because I think there's a high chance that it will be like the Wolf TNC DLCs: fun shooting but not much else. Wolf without BJ is weird because he's a great character in the MachineGames titles and so far I'm not feeling the girls' personalities. The gameplay might be a bit dodgy too since afaik the girls will be less powerful versions of BJ with his abilities like dual wield being part of the progression system.

Sure, good level design and good co-op synergy could carry the game into greatness but when it comes to level design MG's Wolf games were good but not fantastic so I have my doubts.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Zaxx, on 03 July 2019 - 08:04 PM, said:

Sorry for getting back to this... but dude, if that guy is a leftist then I'm giving back my lefty badge. What you actually saw there was the ramblings of a confused, frustrated individual and stuff I'd call radical ideology. Can that come from the left? Of course and chances are it did but radical ideology or a fringe group with radical ideology does not equal "the left", it's just the result of misguided political activism usually. A good example of that would be modern feminism: the original feminist ideology succeeded and that managed to empty out feminist activism so today if a feminist wants to make a living out of being a feminist then the only way of doing that is by going radical. Feminism was successful so women are not held back by a patriarchic society these days? Okay, then let's talk about misogyny in video games, females being treated as sexual objects in media and just generally try to artifically speed up the natural process of the success of feminism gradually changing society. I think you get the idea.

I do find it interesting how Johnny thinks that MachineGames treated nazis too well though because I'm kind of on the opposite opinion. The way I see it the new Wolf games show us an exaggerated caricature of the nazis, they are just evil, cruel, basically one dimensional comic book villains. Now, I don't really have a problem with that because Wolf is an FPS where you're supposed to shoot the bad guys but whenever I see nazis being portrayed this way I can't help but think about how much we're still missing the point. The nazis weren't evil villains, they were just normal people doing their job: they woke up every day, went to work, carried out their duties and a lot of them were hard working, honorable people trying to get ahead in life. How can people like that be viewed as the villains who want to destroy the free world? All it takes is a society that's a bit desperate and bitter, an economy that's going to shit and some smart people who want to get advantage of that with propaganda. You show them the enemy and tell them that it was those guys who caused them misfortune, you tell them that there is a way out of the shit if they follow your lead, you give them jobs in your weapons factories. Once they get some money and the economy starts to climb suddenly the weird militaristic attitude stops being that weird, the lies become truths because "that guy did a lot of good for us, he sure as shit knows what he's talking about"and they'll fall in line and follow. That's what's really terrifying, not some comic book villains torturing people: that it happened a few times throughout history, that it can happen again and that there is a tried-and-true method of making it happen again.

But hey, at least we can laugh on old Hitler shitting himself and shooting random people... because that's a lot less disturbing than viewing him as a smart man who knew how to manipulate people on a genius level.

This is my favorite post of yours. I do agree with johnny at least on one level, though: MG's portrayal of the Nazis in their games adds to the idiotic mysticism. Like oh they were so degenerate, yet so powerful and y'know, obsessed with "evil". That's why these days you mainly only see embittered lower class people supporting The Third Reich, which is a problem I think. IRL people do get persuaded positively by negative portrayals of certain groups. The American History X example that johnny gave is perfectly apt and I've seen it myself. Ed Norton's character looks "cool and alpha" and that's all they notice. But OK, artists certainly get things wrong and I don't think people need to be told what to create. I'm just lamenting the fact that they seem to think it comes down to a choice between either a shitting, crazy Hitler or a badass, macho Hitler, because neither actually cut to the core of the matter, which is that Hitler was a human being with a nuanced personality. By not showing this, you distance him from the average person who might fall prey to far right ideology without even perceiving it, while at the same time bolstering Hitler's image as the ultimate bad boy among the right.

More stupid mysticism from Carl Jung:

"With Hitler you do not feel that you are with a man. You are with a medicine man, a form of spiritual vessel, a demi-deity, or even better, a myth. With Hitler you are scared. You know you would never be able to talk to that man; because there is nobody there. He is not a man, but a collective. He is not an individual, but a whole nation. I take it to be literally true that he has no personal friend. How can you talk intimately with a nation?"

The way you take away the mystery (and therefore kill his influence) is by portraying him as ordinary, at least in private. The Downfall also gets this wrong by showing a shouting, belligerent Hitler a lot of the time. We have that recorded conversation between him and another leader that shows how he actually talked. Most people are surprised that he had a deep voice as they've never heard him speak calmly, hence most popular portrayals basically imagine him as his public persona.

Ordinary Men - "The shocking account of how a unit of average middle-aged Germans became the cold-blooded murderers of tens of thousands of Jews."

I can't really see how that would work in a video game either, so to be fair to MG, I think they got the tone "just about right" with TNO and went off the rails with the sequel.

BTW, they tested the IQs of the Nazi leaders at the Nuremberg trials and found that several of them had genius level IQs. It seemed to go down almost perfectly according to rank, with the smartest at the top, the dumbest at the bottom.

[Danukem]

Zaxx, on 04 July 2019 - 12:35 AM, said:

I'm a bit worried about Youngblood because I think there's a high chance that it will be like the Wolf TNC DLCs:

The lower price of the game supports that theory, too. I'm gonna buy it to play coop, but I'm expecting it to be essentially a standalone DLC.

[MusicallyInspired]

I'm not that interested to be honest. After hearing about how disappointing TNC was by some YT personalities I sort of share tastes with, I'm not interested in pursuing the Wolf franchise. I still have and plan to finish TNO though. I wish that one would get a rerelease on Switch.

[Zaxx]

Amazeballs:

[MusicallyInspired]

Hmm the video seems to stop and buffer for me at 21 seconds. On every quality setting.

[Zaxx]

It works just fine for me so blame Youtube... and you can try this Soundclod link too :
https://soundcloud.c...3d-metal-medley