[PsychoGoatee]

Lately I've really been enjoying catching up on Duke user maps, which for some reason I never dug into until this summer. Been playing tons of levels from the past 20 years, lots of great maps. I've probably downloaded half the maps reviewed on MSDN, CGS, and DNR etc.

And I had fun making a Duke map, just to say I made one. I'm not really sure if I'm going to complete a second map or not, or if it's even possible for me to make map that doesn't have 100 similar better maps. Though I could make it just for my enjoyment.

For example, the first thing I did was make an alley with a dumpster, where you jump up on ledge to go over a fence onto the main street. Since then I played actually two or three maps that start that exact same way, etc. The amount of time it'd take for me to competently make a believable street with some of the usual locations you can go into just doesn't seem like it'd be worthwhile, when it'll have been done better so many time before.

But to make it not just about me, what do you do to try and come up with an idea for a map? And do you worry about if it's way too similar to lots of other maps? Personally I really don't mind playing similar maps, I've enjoyed many different people's takes on the ol' city block with a few familiar locations. Since they all have a different gameplay flow to them.

And in general, especially when working with the vanilla textures, it can seem tough to come up with new ideas for environment. For example I think hmmm... I guess the main action in this map could be in a hotel? But it'd just be a less detailed and less complex hotel than several people have played.

To me the only thing I can think of is to make it unique in that it's not normal, make it surreal-ish like Doom, have rooms be weird shapes instead of squares, twists and turns, etc. But I have a feeling my amateur-ish funhouse mirror version of a hotel would not be very appreciated by players. Ha I dunno.

So what do you folks do with these kind of thoughts, and what are some general thoughts on mapping ideas?

[Forge]

PsychoGoatee, on 17 October 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Though I could make it just for my enjoyment.

^this should be the main reason for making a map



everyone's different - some like making vanilla maps, some try to emulate real locations, some like to see how far they can push the game effects, some just come up with an aspect or theme and build around it.

Make what you like and don't worry if there's something 'better' out there. Challenge and compete with yourself, not others.

[Mark]

One of the things that make "the same old map" stand out is putting in a lot of small details. Support beams in the walls and ceilings. Sprite frames around windows and doors. Baseboard mouldings along the bottom of the walls. Put lamps, phones, paper, books, etc on tables and desks. Instead of the same dead end alley or high walls along the edges of a map make a small cross street with some simple buildings and have some kind of barrier to keep the player out of that area because its for show only. Make buildings different heights and styles, not just different textured cubes.

[PsychoGoatee]

Good points there dudes. I seem to be pretty slow at it, though I just picked it up, so for me making it more detailed than other similar maps might not be an ideal strategy for me. But it is true it helps.

Random note of comparison, in the Doom community there seems to be some love for square walled levels with not much detailing. It's even an intentional thing some popular mappers do. I don't know if such a thing flies at all in the Duke community though.

[Mark]

There have been a lot of simple maps released. As long as the shading is there along with good gameplay, many people are willing to overlook the lack of details.

[PsychoGoatee]

That's true. But I think for Duke it's more common that the levels have believable places in them to some degree. Where as with Doom it's just a basic theme where you can make any weird location you want pretty much. Granted it's not exactly easy over there either, you still have some expectations to live up to.

I guess space levels can be kind of surreal and nonsensical like that for Duke, anyway.

[Forge]

PsychoGoatee, on 17 October 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

for Duke it's more common that the levels have believable places in them to some degree.

common, but not necessarily always. There are some 'existential' maps out there.

[Sixty Four]

PsychoGoatee, on 17 October 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

But to make it not just about me, what do you do to try and come up with an idea for a map? And do you worry about if it's way too similar to lots of other maps? Personally I really don't mind playing similar maps, I've enjoyed many different people's takes on the ol' city block with a few familiar locations. Since they all have a different gameplay flow to them.

Every mapper has there city map(s) you should make one nobody thinks exactly alike so things tend to change a bit. Its good to get a city map out also upon starting mapping imo. I made one city map all the rest are pretty strange if you ask me

Now to answer your question from my point of view.

Just first imagine taking the player through something they haven't seen, it has a lot to do with architecture and scene/setting. We have seen the countless city, space, and hotel maps. I am honestly pretty un-interested in it. but it doesn't prevent me from playing it.... I think about other games I like, and I find what I like in them it could be darkness, ancient ruins, temples, or jungles. I also think of places I have seen with my own eyes in life, when I saw them I thought "that could be in a map". That's my style though while making maps. City maps, hotel maps, and those type of maps teach the mapper which way he would like to go after each one you will learn more but do not spend to much time just be creative. So just roll with the punches you pick it up as you go and your own imagination will do what your seeking

My map Mean Streets is literally based off a block in D.C and Baltimore combined as one

[PsychoGoatee]

Mean Streets is terrific stuff for sure. That basketball court was a cool touch.

In general I think city streets are a cool setting, because it's so different from say most Doom maps.

[Micky C]

PsychoGoatee, on 17 October 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

I seem to be pretty slow at it,

It's all about the copy and paste

Mark., on 17 October 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

There have been a lot of simple maps released. As long as the shading is there along with good gameplay, many people are willing to overlook the lack of details.

Exactly. Just because locations ought to be believable doesn't mean they have to have any kind of real detail. I mean look at Hollywood Holocaust; the cinema there is just a giant box with a single texture pasted on the walls, other on the floor and ceiling, some 1-minute copy-pasted box-like chairs and some rectangular sectors at the front for curtains. I'd hardly call that detail or realism, but it's believable as far as the game is concerned. A room like that can be made in 5 minutes tops.

[Sixty Four]

PsychoGoatee, on 17 October 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

Mean Streets is terrific stuff for sure. That basketball court was a cool touch.

In general I think city streets are a cool setting, because it's so different from say most Doom maps.

Well thanks dood well the basketball hoops yeah those are my favorite. You know I used to walk in the city a lot and I been to New York and La know what I noticed almost all of the cities have a basketball court in it. Ny has a really nice one i hope to one day see that inspire someone to make a more specific outdoor basket ball court

New York


LA


Baltimore before upgrade


Baltimore got an upgrade in this area


Houston



Basketball is big in the cities

[The Mechanic]

PsychoGoatee, on 17 October 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Lately I've really been enjoying catching up on Duke user maps, which for some reason I never dug into until this summer. Been playing tons of levels from the past 20 years, lots of great maps. I've probably downloaded half the maps reviewed on MSDN, CGS, and DNR etc.

And I had fun making a Duke map, just to say I made one. I'm not really sure if I'm going to complete a second map or not, or if it's even possible for me to make map that doesn't have 100 similar better maps. Though I could make it just for my enjoyment.

For example, the first thing I did was make an alley with a dumpster, where you jump up on ledge to go over a fence onto the main street. Since then I played actually two or three maps that start that exact same way, etc. The amount of time it'd take for me to competently make a believable street with some of the usual locations you can go into just doesn't seem like it'd be worthwhile, when it'll have been done better so many time before.

But to make it not just about me, what do you do to try and come up with an idea for a map? And do you worry about if it's way too similar to lots of other maps? Personally I really don't mind playing similar maps, I've enjoyed many different people's takes on the ol' city block with a few familiar locations. Since they all have a different gameplay flow to them.

And in general, especially when working with the vanilla textures, it can seem tough to come up with new ideas for environment. For example I think hmmm... I guess the main action in this map could be in a hotel? But it'd just be a less detailed and less complex hotel than several people have played.

To me the only thing I can think of is to make it unique in that it's not normal, make it surreal-ish like Doom, have rooms be weird shapes instead of squares, twists and turns, etc. But I have a feeling my amateur-ish funhouse mirror version of a hotel would not be very appreciated by players. Ha I dunno.

So what do you folks do with these kind of thoughts, and what are some general thoughts on mapping ideas?

If you try and make a map without a hotel, or bar, or toilets, or ... etc ... you will indeed never make another map. Just because the basic objects have been done before doesn't mean it'd be boring to have them again.

Sometimes I get ideas from other games and make a mental note (not a particularly safe place to keep 'em ). On their own they are not the start of a new level, but sometimes I think "that plus that, then go one step further".

I think the key is to have a story line, it doesn't have to be the greatest original story ever told but what it does do is give an idea of what to include in the map. Lets make up an example; Duke is in his slum of a flat and has an attack of the munchies and wants a burger (hail to the king baby!). But he is brassic (skint). So, there is a room - in an apartment, or hotel - there will be some kind of fast food shop. There'll probably be a bank to raid for the cash too (well, a keycard). Its a rough area so some alleyways between buildings (you mentioned you started with a dumpster which had a purpose, well, that goes in the alley) ? Roads to join them up. Roads have vehicles. The story suggests what to put in the map - and what not to put in; why would there be a bar ? At the end of it you'll have buildings that have been done before but I don't see any problem with that. At the end of the day, if I'm trying to entice a handful of pigcops to get a bit closer so I can pipebomb them in one go, I don't really care if I'm hiding behind the corner of a bank, hotel, behind a parked car, whatever.

Sometimes real places can inspire. For example I'm often in Nailsea and I reckon its small shopping center is a good basis for a map. Now, real places often aren't a good thing to use - but in this instance it might work. There are archways (provide cover), there are high-up areas for some good enemy placements and although not obvious in the photos it is on multiple levels. There are four smallish exits from the area which helps set boundaries. There's an hexagonal library which looks more like a spaceship. The architecture will also be a "fun" TROR subject. Just needs a story-line which I haven't got yet, other than a spaceship has landed in Nailsea ... no, _crashed_ in Nailsea as no-one, not even an alien would want to visit that place by choice ! Thing is not to attempt to recreate Nailsea exactly but use the ideas - instead of 20+ archways four or five is enough cover.Two balconies are enough don't need four. It doesn't _have_ to have a bank, or hanging baskets.

Quote

And in general, especially when working with the vanilla textures, it can seem tough to come up with new ideas for environment.

Textures and detailing is where I just grind to a halt. One map I have a sorted story line, I know the layout, primarily what is in each room, the paths the player can take, what spawns where and when, even weapon choices, you name it, hell even the title of the map is sorted. Problem ? See 2nd attached image. The door is important to the gameplay. Anything else will be decorative, so lets get decorating ... er ... um ... stuck !

Sometimes google images can help. So for example in third attached image - a mock-up of an area - it needs detailing and a google image search turned up fourth attached image. I'm not going to replicate it, but the vertical brick columns and detailing towards the roof help make it look 3D, the bottom windows are bricked in etc. The image shows overhanging wooden building extensions which will not only help break up my bland walls but also provide a place for a sneaky commander or three.

Finally whilst searching google images I came across the fifth attached image. I like that building, maybe I can find a use.

Hopefully that'll give you some ideas for map number two

TTFN,
Jon

PS: If anyone also thinks Nailsea could make a good map and wants to have ago, please feel free.

Attached thumbnail(s)

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[Mark]

I thought that last pic was a Walker from Star Wars.

[The Mechanic]

Mark., on 18 October 2015 - 03:31 AM, said:

I thought that last pic was a Walker from Star Wars.

Ha ha, yes, I see your point. Hmm, a building that walks. Now there's an idea .....

TTFN,
Jon

[Micky C]

I could do that. I'm not even joking. Might not be what you're thinking though.

[The Mechanic]

Micky C, on 18 October 2015 - 03:43 AM, said:

I could do that. I'm not even joking. Might not be what you're thinking though.

Intrigued how you would tackle it.

You did set me thinking and I reckon I can make a multi-story TROR building "walk" - I say walk, rather it is easier to move the surroundings relative to the building than vice versa. I can also move sprite objects along pre-defined paths which could be used to animate the feet. Maybe a mini-earthquake upon each foot movement if player is outside of building.

Well, if PsychoGoatee was wondering how to come up with ideas, the past few posts illustrate just that.

TTFN,
Jon

PS: Another thing it does illustrate is the need to get scaling right. I can just imagine Duke looking up at this behemoth. However I've attached a second image of it and, well, nowhere near as inspiring.

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[Micky C]

I was just thinking of having a 2-layer TROR section with the building in the top layer, and pistons for feet in the bottom layer. Then there'd be a conveyor belt moving the floor texture at a fast speed, with the whole thing looking like it was running quickly. If you want to get fancy you could turn the legs into self-oscillating two-way trains although that'd be difficult to time properly to look good. Like you suggested though you could turn the surroundings into a giant two-way train instead of a conveyor belt.

[The Mechanic]

Micky C, on 18 October 2015 - 04:27 AM, said:

I was just thinking of having a 2-layer TROR section with the building in the top layer, and pistons for feet in the bottom layer. Then there'd be a conveyor belt moving the floor texture at a fast speed, with the whole thing looking like it was running quickly. If you want to get fancy you could turn the legs into self-oscillating two-way trains although that'd be difficult to time properly to look good. Like you suggested though you could turn the surroundings into a giant two-way train instead of a conveyor belt.

Two way train ! Why didn't I think of that ! When "train" reaches the end of it's route it fires an activator. That could be used to trigger sector-ceiling-rise (foot up) as well as trigger two way train to return. The trigger also triggers two door helpers each with different auto-close delays, the first one triggers foot down, the second one kicks off the two-way again. I reckon that'd work - might need sector rise to be done via CON file tho.

TTFN,
Jon

[Micky C]

There's already a sector ceiling rise effect in the game isn't there?

[The Mechanic]

Micky C, on 18 October 2015 - 04:58 AM, said:

There's already a sector ceiling rise effect in the game isn't there?

Yes, but a fundamental flaw in the way existing SE's/ST's,'etc work is the need an activator which mostly (but not always) means you can't put two effects in the same sector. Two way train need is ST31 + SE30 + activator. With that in the sector, how do you also add ceiling rise ?

This is why in the library I'm working on there are no activators, rather effects have the "channel" number as part of their setup, that means you can easilly apply 2,3,4 however many effects you want in the same sector.

TTFN,
Jon

(I reckon four 2-ways per foot will solve it).

[Forge]

PsychoGoatee, on 17 October 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

To me the only thing I can think of is to make it unique in that it's not normal, make it surreal-ish like Doom, have rooms be weird shapes instead of squares, twists and turns, etc. But I have a feeling my amateur-ish funhouse mirror version of a hotel would not be very appreciated by players. Ha I dunno.

Says who?

Some people will like it, others won't.

-the more maps you make, the more your skills will improve
-you can't please everybody. There are people who absolutely hate what is generally considered some of the best user made maps.

[oasiz]

For slum noir, I just immersed myself in the map itself. Trying out different styles with really obscure variations and creating new variations with some sprite placement as needed.
Build porn thread was intended for mapping inspiration, having a bunch of wacky stuff that would work out as fun gimmicks.


Anyway... for walker it would have to be 2-way trains and pistons like was said, then you can lower the parallax ceiling / etc.. to make it look like it's not just pistons going around.
Gonna be a total bitch to set up but much of it is doable even without TROR (Although it wouldn't be visible).

Biggest problem is going to be that you will be firing the train as well when you mess with that sector, meaning that it will change it's direction on 2way track.

More sensible version would be to have it visible from inside & conveyor belts. Too bad that duke can't move many sectors at the same tick.
You can still however just lower/raise the exterior to make it look like it's the mech doing it, since the 1&2 unit difference won't be visible from far away.

Just tried and you can do a somewhat convincing walking animation if you make the exterior SE 29 (float). Although it will introduce nice bugs with sprite behaviour now and then.

[Mark]

^^ Thats why I take the easy way out and make a model instead.

[Micky C]

The Mechanic, on 18 October 2015 - 05:05 AM, said:

Yes, but a fundamental flaw in the way existing SE's/ST's,'etc work is the need an activator which mostly (but not always) means you can't put two effects in the same sector. Two way train need is ST31 + SE30 + activator. With that in the sector, how do you also add ceiling rise ?

This is why in the library I'm working on there are no activators, rather effects have the "channel" number as part of their setup, that means you can easilly apply 2,3,4 however many effects you want in the same sector.

TTFN,
Jon

(I reckon four 2-ways per foot will solve it).

Why can't the two-way train be an exterior sector and the piston be a child sector on the inside?

[PsychoGoatee]

The Mechanic, on 18 October 2015 - 04:21 AM, said:

Well, if PsychoGoatee was wondering how to come up with ideas, the past few posts illustrate just that.

Definitely good stuff. Just I have the added hurdle of how I'm not exactly great at mapster quite yet. I could think of say having a moving building that transforms into a giant robot that Duke climbs on, I just might have trouble making that a reality. Ditto for say.... many very simple things you may or may not see me ask about in the mapping topic at various points.

[The Mechanic]

PsychoGoatee, on 18 October 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

Definitely good stuff. Just I have the added hurdle of how I'm not exactly great at mapster quite yet. I could think of say having a moving building that transforms into a giant robot that Duke climbs on, I just might have trouble making that a reality. Ditto for say.... many very simple things you may or may not see me ask about in the mapping topic at various points.

What I meant was that just googling some images, another image turned up as inspiration. I never thought of making it move, someone else did and the idea happened to appeal to me, otherwise I'd be thinking more along the lines of a static building that might look good being blown up. Ask ten other mappers and I bet you'd get ten different ideas again.

So, if you are struggling to think of a map idea, try google images, find an image you like, think of a story and go with it.

TTFN,
Jon