[Zaxx]

Explosives work in a way that if you hit a wall crack with them they'll explode. This works with the bowling bombs primary fire but you can't really aim the height of your throwns beyond a certain point so use the grenade launcher instead.

[Mblackwell]

Zaxx, on 27 August 2019 - 03:50 PM, said:

Explosives work in a way that if you hit a wall crack with them they'll explode. This works with the bowling bombs primary fire but you can't really aim the height of your throwns beyond a certain point so use the grenade launcher instead.

The alt fire also has a higher arc. And charging sends them flying higher too.

If you want the alt fire to explode at a specific spot just make sure and prime it well. Zaxx is right about cracks forcing detonation. Vents will (or should) as well.

[Danukem]

Mblackwell, on 27 August 2019 - 03:53 PM, said:

Zaxx is right about cracks forcing detonation. Vents will (or should) as well.

I guess I wasn't getting it close enough to the crack then.

[Zaxx]

It's certainly not the best option I guess, I mean you do have to hit the crack precisely and aiming the height is tricky. Basically I use the primary for this secret exclusively:

The benefit is that if you miss the crack you can just pick the bomb up and try again so you don't lose ammo. The grenade launcher is a lot easier to aim so that works a lot better + I found that the bowling bomb's alt fire with crouching is great too.

[Zaxx]

Btw. can you get something for completing the shooting range? I'm missing one secret on the map and I have no idea where could it be.

[DisgustedGrunt]

Just finished it!

with 97% kills and 53% secrets (i know, i suck), don't know exact time (not installing Gog galaxy) but i think took me around 13 - 14 hours.

10/10, Game of the Year.

Great level design, as complex as it was i never got lost, and i barely use the automap. Loved the music. Only weapon i never used much was the Clusterpuck, kinda forgot about it until i was out of everything else explosive.

only thing i didn't liked was that using alt-fire to switch between the disperser shotgun/ grenade launcher didn't counted as reloading it.

Now, if you excuse me, those secrets aren't gonna find themselves.

[Zaxx]

Lazy Dog, on 27 August 2019 - 07:20 PM, said:

Now, if you excuse me, those secrets aren't gonna find themselves.

You won't find them either. On my first playthrough I managed to find 73% and a lot of those was random where the usual rules don't apply. On my second playthrough now I put a bigger emphasis on secret hunting and usually the ones that I've missed are:

- Overly complicated bullshit puzzles that you'll never solve by yourself because a clue is missing or simply because it asks too much from you.
- Stuff where the rules don't apply. You're missing one secret on a map so you methodically re-explore the level and look for the odd texture? Nah, fuck you, it's going to be behind a regular wall texture, you won't even get a shadow.

And to make matters worse the most detailed and most rewarding secrets are the zone mega-secrets = the ones you'll never find (okay, some of them are okay). It's not like Duke 3D where most people found the cool shit like the "doomed space marine" because those were easy, here there was a lot of care put into the player not finding the good shit.

Also if you're expecting those classic Build secrets you're kinda in for a letdown: there are no stuff like button combination puzzles, obscure buttons to shoot (there is one where you have to shoot a "no smoking" sign for whatever reason though: it's not signposted, it looks the same as all the other signs like that, so fun), crazy rooms that give you everything and more like in Blood etc. There is some cool stuff in there like the ones connected to using the electifier or the darts but even that's underutilized. There is a lot "pixel hunting" though (you know, that stuff you hate from point n click adventure games).

[Zaxx]

How is this supposed to work btw?

In both of my playthroughs it took around 20 tries to get in there and I have absolutely no clue what I'm doing wrong.

[t800]

I was wondering about one unused enemy type. In ending screen after finishing Preview campaign (Crisis in Columbia episode under Bonus missions in full game), specifically in lower right picture frame you can get look at him. So was he scraped definitely because he looked too "Duke3d-ish"? Can we maybe look forward to seeing him later in some sort of expansion pack?


Only other mention of him in game I could find was this small picture from locker.



EDIT: Sorry for pushing your post to previous page, Zaxx.

[MusicallyInspired]

Actually, I never saw either of those enemies in the game anywhere (the red tank thing nor the big ugly green-shirted dude).

[t800]

Well, I presumed it was beta version of 3rd boss.

[MetHy]

Zaxx, on 27 August 2019 - 08:05 PM, said:

You won't find them either. On my first playthrough I managed to find 73% and a lot of those was random where the usual rules don't apply. On my second playthrough now I put a bigger emphasis on secret hunting and usually the ones that I've missed are:

- Overly complicated bullshit puzzles that you'll never solve by yourself because a clue is missing or simply because it asks too much from you.
- Stuff where the rules don't apply. You're missing one secret on a map so you methodically re-explore the level and look for the odd texture? Nah, fuck you, it's going to be behind a regular wall texture, you won't even get a shadow.

And to make matters worse the most detailed and most rewarding secrets are the zone mega-secrets = the ones you'll never find (okay, some of them are okay). It's not like Duke 3D where most people found the cool shit like the "doomed space marine" because those were easy, here there was a lot of care put into the player not finding the good shit.

Also if you're expecting those classic Build secrets you're kinda in for a letdown: there are no stuff like button combination puzzles, obscure buttons to shoot (there is one where you have to shoot a "no smoking" sign for whatever reason though: it's not signposted, it looks the same as all the other signs like that, so fun), crazy rooms that give you everything and more like in Blood etc. There is some cool stuff in there like the ones connected to using the electifier or the darts but even that's underutilized. There is a lot "pixel hunting" though (you know, that stuff you hate from point n click adventure games).

Recent comments, not just yours, have brought back to me a question I've been asking myself for a while: when did secret places shift from "cool optional bonuses" to "game content I'll feel ripped off from if I'm not handed out absolutely every single one of them" ?
The answer is probably "somewhere during this `recent` retro gaming phase". Secret places in games used to be a norm and pretty much disappeared a few generations ago, only to come back as a part of "retro games mechanics".

Now - during the development of IF for study purposes, I actually went and look at FAQs for the secret places I wasn't aware of in Build games. Before that, I never knew all the secrets in DN3D, during more than 20 years I kept replaying the game and once in a while I'd find a new secret place I didn't know about, which felt extremely cool.
Which brings me to this point: all the 'obscure' type of secret places IF can have, are type of secrets you would find in Build games and other old FPS and old games in general. Going through a maskwall with little to no indication it is actually not a "real" wall, interacting with a piece of the scenery which otherwise fits in, etc, are secret place types you can find in DN3D.
The point isn't that we haven't been creative about it, there are variations on those types, and also secret types that exploit mechanics that you'd find in IF and not in other Build games, as well as secret types which are by design more modern.

The point is, I do not feel like we've been particuarly big assholes here. IF devs, consciously or not, have been inspired both by Build games and other games of that era, but also by the 20+ years after that.
At the same time, I feel like secret places and secret hunting has largely shifted in this recent era; most modern games secrets, including retro games, often consist in simple things such as "look up", "look under a bridge", or sometimes even just "look behind this corner, which, despite not being lit as well as the intended path, is just a regular corner".

Now, mix this concept of modern secrets being relatively easy to find, with what I said above regarding players being part of the "achievement generation" who can feel they are being cheated out of game content, and the result is players feeling pissed about "secrets" being hidden.

I'm not trying to shift blame blame here, or to say whether that feeling is justified or not, I do not know the answer. The goal of the post is to try and have a bit of perspective to examine and understand the situation better.

Finally, there are several ways in which IF encourages secret hunting, more so than other old games (which didn't need to, since it used to be a norm). Admittedly, that may have the un-intended effect to emphasize this "pissed feeling"; as even the means given to the player to help find secret places, like the radar, which for instance would help in at least one of the secret you mentionned, seem overall under-utilized by players. Again, probably because most players aren't used to having to actively look for secret places in various ways anymore.

So, with all of that taken into account, I have modified 2-3 secrets I was responsable of by adding subtle clues. It should be in a future patch.
However, there is still a middle ground to maintain, we have also heard tons of players who voiced how satisfied they were with secrets hunting, as it is. We wouldn't want to abandon a part of our roots and indentity either. Hence, the change is only "subtle clues", for a few secrets.

t800, on 28 August 2019 - 05:14 AM, said:

Well, I presumed it was beta version of 3rd boss.

It is yeah, with a different palette and with no overpaint yet.

[Phredreeke]

I believe the red tank is in the game, just with an orange palette instead.

[MusicallyInspired]

MetHy, on 28 August 2019 - 05:44 AM, said:

Recent comments, not just yours, have brought back to me a question I've been asking myself for a while: when did secret places shift from "cool optional bonuses" to "game content I'll feel ripped off from if I'm not handed out absolutely every single one of them" ?
The answer is probably "somewhere during this `recent` retro gaming phase". Secret places in games used to be a norm and pretty much disappeared a few generations ago, only to come back as a part of "retro games mechanics".

The same thing happened to the point system and alternate paths from early adventure games. People rag on King's Quest 1 for the insane Rumplestiltskin puzzle being way too hard to ever figure out but they're missing the point. In the game, there's a gnome who helps you but you have to guess his name. Rumplestiltskin is not correct, but there's a note found elsewhere in the game that simply reads "sometimes it is wise to think backwards." If you manage to put two and two together you might think that spelling Rumplestiltskin backwards would be the correct solution. It is not. The actual solution is to reverse the entire alphabet and remap the letters in Rumplestiltskin to the backwards alphabet. If you get it right the gnome gives you magic beans which when you plant sprouts a giant beanstalk that takes you to cloudland and to one of the 3 treasures in the game you're supposed to find. But if you get it wrong he simply leaves a key which unlocks a door to a cavern with a staircase that takes you to cloudland instead. Same outcome, just less points. And you still get to finish the game.

People saying this puzzle is unfair don't get the point (no pun intended). King's Quest came out in 1984. It may have been a way to artificially extend the length of such a small game but that's not always a bad thing. Games just weren't that long and really couldn't be back then unless you came up with interesting new ways to get people to keep playing. The point system was created to get you to do just that until you found a way to beat the game with full points. It's not something you're owed. It's a mark of accomplishment. And it's the same thing with "retro shooter" secret areas. Ion Fury got it exactly right IMO. It's certainly better than the ridiculous achievements nowadays like the "finish level 3 with exactly 3 ammo rounds left in your clip without jumping and getting hit only once" nonsense.

[Zaxx]

MetHy, on 28 August 2019 - 05:44 AM, said:

Recent comments, not just yours, have brought back to me a question I've been asking myself for a while: when did secret places shift from "cool optional bonuses" to "game content I'll feel ripped off from if I'm not handed out absolutely every single one of them" ?
The answer is probably "somewhere during this `recent` retro gaming phase". Secret places in games used to be a norm and pretty much disappeared a few generations ago, only to come back as a part of "retro games mechanics".

I think it's more complicated than that. I'm not a completionist, I don't think I've ever found all the super secrets in Blood for example nor all the secrets in Duke and I'm not really interested in that aspect of secret hunting. What I'm interested in is finding enough secrets so that I have some extra resources to spare + finding the more elaborate easter eggs. That's why I think that this zone mega secret thing was kind of a mistake: because you've put the most effort into secrets 90% of the playerbase will never find. Like the "room from that famous horror game" is amazing, if you know that game then it's a fucking love letter, every single piece of information hidden there is a gem. It's not about gating off content or anything like that, I'm just on the opinion that stuff like that can add some extra value to the overall experience so you should show them off.

The other thing is that IF is pretty dense visually, it's a lot more detailed than other Build games so naturally that will make secrets harder to find: you'll get a lot more things on the map that will look suspicious so if a secret is hidden behind a regular wall for example you kinda feel cheated because there were just so many "better" options.

Also: the "pixel hunting" aspect is a new thing in IF and I just don't think that it suits the gameplay. For example there is a map where you can open the back of a truck by shooting a teeny-tiny red button in a teeny-tiny crack in the wall: it's not only near impossible to find because by default you're autorunning it also doesn't make sense. What is a red button doing in a middle of a crack in the wall and why does it open the back of a truck? Of course thinking that stuff like that is bad is coming from my opinion that secrets are the most fun when they are "logic puzzles" so to speak. The thing is I love adventure games so I always thought that secret hunting is an aspect that could be improved in FPS games and that's what immersive sim-like games did. In System Shock 2 or Doom 3 logs will lead you to secret places in a lot of instances, like you find a log that says "dude, the shit just hit the fan here so I've hidden some supplies in our hiding spot that looks like this" and then you find that place by the clues you were given.

Now in a traditional FPS things don't work like this... but they could be, especially in Build where the more realistic approach to level design seems to be a guiding principle. I have to admit I never liked how Duke 3D did its secrets because they were just a bit too random sometimes but at least the "good shit" was always signposted well. On the other hand Doom was always amazing in this regard because you can basically find everything by learning the rules of how secrets are placed and that's where the "logic puzzle" thing comes into play. You missed something? Eh, there may be a computer map somewhere on the more complex maps and even the plain old automap is very helpful because it can give you clues on how to find that missing room. Now Doom is the most old school FPS of them all yet interestingly that game always wanted you to find those secrets.

Is secret hunting in IF fun? Of course it is fun because there are a lot of clever and nice things in there, it's just that going for that 100% run is not ideal and the easter egg-filled rooms that would break up the "monotony" of finding radars-armor-medkits-ammo are things most people won't see. So you know, I don't think there would be anything wrong with giving the player more information when it comes to how to access the "good shit" (and yeah, I do think that if you get where the solution to a secret starts you should be able to solve it instead of being "fuck this, I'm outta here" after trying for 20 minutes ).

But again this is just a very minor nitpick of mine because when it comes to the resource gathering aspect the game has so many secrets that the problem of some them being batshit crazy gets automatically solved. And when it comes to the mega secrets I'll just look up the missing stuff on Youtube anyway because I like seeing that stuff.

[Zaxx]

MusicallyInspired, on 28 August 2019 - 06:46 AM, said:

People saying this puzzle is unfair don't get the point (no pun intended). King's Quest came out in 1984. It may have been a way to artificially extend the length of such a small game but that's not always a bad thing. Games just weren't that long and really couldn't be back then unless you came up with interesting new ways to get people to keep playing. The point system was created to get you to do just that until you found a way to beat the game with full points. It's not something you're owed. It's a mark of accomplishment. And it's the same thing with "retro shooter" secret areas.

Here's the thing though: not only the times changed but so did the players. An FPS like IF is aimed at people who played Duke 3D when they were kids. That was almost 25 years ago, they grew up, they have a lot less time to play videogames so just let 'em see the car from Carmageddon, okay?

[Mblackwell]

What you're doing wrong in the video you posted is not waiting until the fan has lifted you all the way up. There is plenty of time.

[Zaxx]

 Mblackwell, on 28 August 2019 - 07:31 AM, said:

What you're doing wrong in the video you posted is not waiting until the fan has lifted you all the way up. There is plenty of time.

Yeah, I figured that out, somehow I always wanted to get in there too quickly.

[DisgustedGrunt]

 t800, on 28 August 2019 - 02:27 AM, said:

I was wondering about one unused enemy type. In ending screen after finishing Preview campaign (Crisis in Columbia episode under Bonus missions in full game), specifically in lower right picture frame you can get look at him. So was he scraped definitely because he looked too "Duke3d-ish"? Can we maybe look forward to seeing him later in some sort of expansion pack?

The alien is from Bombshell

[oasiz]

Yes, it was one of the first enemies added in due to having a model but never coded beyond basic movement.
All screenshots you see with it included are basically mockup-tier material, the guys's AI basically just mostly left/right slowly and shoots his cannon.
It was quite jerky and un-fun even early on, plus we decided that it didn't fit the direction we wanted to go for.

I think you can probably spawn a_masticon in some of the earlier versions, might need CON edits.

This guy was soft-scrapped back in 2015 practically though, it was just one of the few "other" enemies outside of the preview stuff we could show (back then we didn't even have unique shotgunner frames, those were literally added last week before the release!)

Red brute is just the version we had as a render before touchups, kinda shows the huge difference that Cage does to bring the model to a nice looking sprite

[Phredreeke]

The Masticon scout resembles a liztroop a bit too much IMO.

[darkcaleb]

Hey there people I was wondering about something maybe that have been asked before? Is it possible for mappers to use outside Ion Fury the textures from the game?

[DisgustedGrunt]

 Phredreeke, on 28 August 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:

The Masticon scout resembles a liztroop a bit too much IMO.

Where the Duke 3D aliens suppossed to be in Mass Destruction? if so they probably reworked the Trooper model into the Masticon.

[Zaxx]

Maximum Fury is pretty amazing, I love what you did with the enemy placements on that difficulty. It's cool to see some enemy types being introduced a bit earlier and their inclusion can alter how you approach those encounters. Really great replay value for people who like the added challenge.

[Perro Seco]

I would like to buy this game, but not on Steam. I want to buy the typical box, with the disk and the manual. Is this possible outside of the USA? Is the game already available in other countries like Spain? Sorry for my ignorance, but it has been more than a decade since I bought the last game...

Another question; I heard that the game was patched to not "offend" some people , so I would like to know if it's still possible to get the original game without this modification.

[LeoD]

 Perro Seco, on 29 August 2019 - 06:36 AM, said:

Another question; I heard that the game was patched to not "offend" some people , so I would like to know if it's still possible to get the original game without this modification.

No changes have been made so far. Buy it now (GOG) and save your fury.grp. From the player's point of view this whole issue is nothing but a storm in a teacup. You won't see the offending thingy without cheating or Mapster anyway. Insofar I don't care if they take it out or not (maybe they should), and I wouldn't call it censorship either.

[NightFright]

3DR is also still included. However, should they make more relevant changes (e.g. such as adding subtle hints to some secrets as oasiz indicated), there's hardly a way to avoid upgrading if the "De-OGAY-ification" is applied at the same time. Unless someone is making an uncut patch from the original groupfile.

[Micky C]

The Ogay bottle is staying in the game, for those who haven’t heard.

[Radar]

I don't think the devs want this thread to derail into this topic, but just mentioning that they walked back the censorship pledge. It's not happening.

EDIT: Micky posted while I was writing.

[Perro Seco]

Sorry, I just asked because I've been away from home more than a month, and now that I'm back, the first thing I heard about the game was that story about censorship.

Now about my first question, when will the game be available to buy as a physical copy? I know about the Big Box edition, but I just want a box with the game and the manual.