[NNC]

Forge, on 02 April 2018 - 06:52 PM, said:

Why, that sounds just like every Duke3d map in all the original episodes that have locks and keys.
The horror.

Usually in Duke3D, locks and keys weren't there for gameplay extension only, but they separated significantly different areas as well with different enemy types. Also, in Duke3D the dead end type key rooms were extremely limited too (read: there is a key door which holds another key), as its nothing else, but fake gameplay expansion.

[MetHy]

Micky C, on 03 April 2018 - 02:20 AM, said:

There are some instances where you can take different routes in the original levels. In Hollywood Holocaust for example, (after getting the RPG in a pretty obvious secret), you can enter the one building from opposite sides. The only reason why it doesn't necessarily feel like macro non-linearity is because the levels are so incredibly small in those games, however this limitation is no longer the case. Whether or not such a layout extends well to a larger scale would come down to personal preference. However, keep in mind that IM is not attempting to be a 1:1 imitation of the older games, rather it takes what's best and aims to make it better with modern advancements in technology and gameplay mechanics. In the AMC TC for example, large parts of several levels can essentially be played backwards. Other levels approach an outdoor open-world level of freedom.

HH is an exception in the entire game, as you can tackle the level any way you want. You can even use the jetpack to skip the keycard (which is not to be confused with maps in which you can skip entire areas if you saved the jetpacks acquired in previous maps; in HH they hand over the jetpack so you may directly fly to the exit in the same map).
The type of unlinearility DN3D generally has is similar to what you find in the office area in Washington Wasteland if you make the walls explode when you come up the ladder, except down to smaller scale areas in Duke. That office area is also exactly what you describe with "playing it backwards".

People tend to idolize unlinearility especially regarding older FPS games. AMC TC also has overwhelming areas and "This is so huge, where do I go and where was that area again" moments which is something I think IM should avoid.

I think that in this regard the preview campaign does things relatively right. It offers enough freedom, the only really big 'unlinear' progression moment is in the office, but there are also a couple of other small ones. More importantly it offers freedom of movement and exploration, which is a bigger key element in Build era FPS level design than true unlinearility is.

It also alternates between bigger and smaller areas, areas with more freedom than others, which creates a good flow and never becomes too overwhelming; though even the more linear areas offer some freedom, like in Blast Processing and you have 2 paths when you come up the ladder, or the way you can tackle the big fight in the green room of Disrupted Service many different ways.

Nancsi, on 03 April 2018 - 03:30 AM, said:

Usually in Duke3D, locks and keys weren't there for gameplay extension only, but they separated significantly different areas as well with different enemy types. Also, in Duke3D the dead end type key rooms were extremely limited too (read: there is a key door which holds another key), as its nothing else, but fake gameplay expansion.

Movie Set is all about that. Rabid Transit also has a room like this. There are probably others instances I can't recall on top of my head.
Coincidentally or not, these are also some of the worsts DN3D maps in my opinion.

Now though in IM the only similar design I can think of is the office area: the director's office requiring a red key and handing out the yellow key as a result. Even then I don't think this is nearly as bad as what you can find in Red Ruckus or in the examples above; for one because it seems to make sense to see that door locked, and secondly because it serves a bigger purpose: making sure the player has explored pretty much the entire office area before accessing the director/manager's room and leaving.

Ideally I think the player should have been able to see the locked office as he comes up, understands he has to find the key which would have given purpose to the exploration.
Edit: or rather, this was supposed to be the role of the yellow lock; but as it is it's not clear the yellow door is the exit and finding that key in the office is our goal.

[Forge]

Micky C, on 03 April 2018 - 02:20 AM, said:

There are some instances where you can take different routes in the original levels. In Hollywood Holocaust for example, (after getting the RPG in a pretty obvious secret), you can enter the one building from opposite sides. The only reason why it doesn't necessarily feel like macro non-linearity is because the levels are so incredibly small in those games, however this limitation is no longer the case. Whether or not such a layout extends well to a larger scale would come down to personal preference. However, keep in mind that IM is not attempting to be a 1:1 imitation of the older games, rather it takes what's best and aims to make it better with modern advancements in technology and gameplay mechanics. In the AMC TC for example, large parts of several levels can essentially be played backwards. Other levels approach an outdoor open-world level of freedom.

You're cherry-picking user made levels, whereas I specified the commercial game itself.
I seen a speed run video showing all the keys bypassed in IM.
Entering a building from two different doors still leads to the same spot.

Micky C, on 02 April 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

For example, you have to collect to collect keycards in a specific order instead of having the freedom to choose which one to go for first.

Sure, there are several parts where you can choose from multiple hallways for example, but they all lead to the same area.

So you're making the player explore for three keys at a time instead of one. Either those locked areas are optional, or they have to be entered in order to perform a task which most likely unlocks yet another door. The end result is the same.
What exactly is your argument?

Nancsi, on 03 April 2018 - 03:30 AM, said:

Usually in Duke3D, locks and keys weren't there for gameplay extension only, but they separated significantly different areas as well with different enemy types. Also, in Duke3D the dead end type key rooms were extremely limited too (read: there is a key door which holds another key), as its nothing else, but fake gameplay expansion.

The point was in most cases that the keys have to be collected in a certain order, thus creating a sense of linear game play.

So far in IM the blue key separates the office building from the street, the red key (optional) secures the yellow key. The yellow key separates the above-ground section from the subterranean section.
Seems pretty similar to me.

[Merlijn]

I think Ion Maiden hits the perfect balance between linear progression and freedom of movement so far. Perhaps a few maps could feature more hidden alternate routes or shortcuts for the observant player.
But other than that I'd argue to keep some linearity in there, it adds structure and purpose to a map. Unless there's a clearly defined mission (stuff like: find these 3 reactors and destroy them!)

[Forge]

Merlijn, on 03 April 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

Perhaps a few maps could feature more hidden alternate routes or shortcuts for the observant player.

like the very first level
go through the entire garage structure and control rooms
-or-
go up the ladder hidden in the ceiling vent, blow up the gate, drop down into the next section

[OpenMaw]

I'll say this, I think in games like this there is such a thing as too much freedom. In terms of game-flow, if the layouts become confused, and the main path is not made at least somewhat apparent, it can turn off a lot of gamers. You want to make sure the player feels like they're always making progress in the right direction. Having too many alternate paths can make for a hollow feeling.

I think Ion Maiden is doing a great job on that front. Forge cites a great example of the non linearity on display. Personally I enjoyed when old school games would mix it up. Have some really open feeling maps, and others that are more of a glorified straight line. Doom had some great Horse-shoes, some great donuts, and some great "gauntlets" where you were basically always moving forwards in a linear step. To me variety is very important, and just like in a film, spacing and pacing the 'scenes' so that things are both unexpected and interesting.

[NNC]

What Ion Maiden should avoid is to overflow the maps with secrets. Also secrets like the chair pushing one or the one with the precise window jump are chores and not fun at all. People are completists, and if you spend half of your gameplay to find secrets or beat secrets it can drain the fun entirely. A good comparison is Yoshi's Island of all platform games. A great game with brilliant aesthetics, characters and sounds, but all the fun is drained with the boring hunt for those red coins and flowers.

Another thing I recommend to not overdetail the maps. In the original Build games details like cracks, posters, even blood on the floor was there with a purpose, if for nothing else, just giving a sense of atmosphere of that particular map or an easter egg or showing a secret. Finding secrets in overdetailed maps are less fun and harder too. Even Alien World Order got criticism of being too usermappy, particularly Levelord, who put shitload of unneeded fat in his maps.

[NNC]

MetHy, on 03 April 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

Movie Set is all about that. Rabid Transit also has a room like this. There are probably others instances I can't recall on top of my head.
Coincidentally or not, these are also some of the worsts DN3D maps in my opinion.

Shadow Warrior is also fault of this, particularly Stephen Cole's maps. Shoot random monsters in an open area with 4 locked rooms scattered. Get a key, find the room, get a key, find the room etc.

Ion Maiden did this much better, I think the keys there are used well. Allen Blum was the master of this, he didn't need too many keycards even in large levels.

[Mark]

Nancsi, on 03 April 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

People are completists, and if you spend half of your gameplay to find secrets or beat secrets it can drain the fun entirely.

Its called replay value. Play again later to go and find all secrets. Not all players are so anal that they HAVE to find all secrets during the first playthrough.

[MetHy]

I've never know all secrets in DN3D until a few months ago and I looked up what I didn't know. Never bothered me; once in a while I'd find something I had never found in 20 years.

[OpenMaw]

Though I do think there is something to be said for fewer,better secrets. I still totally appreciate that the Ion Maiden maps are chock-a-block though.

[MusicallyInspired]

Nancsi, on 03 April 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

What Ion Maiden should avoid is to overflow the maps with secrets. Also secrets like the chair pushing one or the one with the precise window jump are chores and not fun at all. People are completists, and if you spend half of your gameplay to find secrets or beat secrets it can drain the fun entirely.

<rant incoming>

This is a perspective I've long fought against in the adventure community. Old adventure games used to have multiple solutions for the same puzzle, or workaround routes that were slightly easier (but didn't grant as much points, or in some cases took points). I think some people seem to have the point of view of "how in the world was I supposed to figure THAT out??" Here's the thing: you're not "supposed to". It's there for if you want the challenge. You don't HAVE to. People seem to have this entitled need to be able to solve EVERYTHING and if they can't then it's the developers' fault for not making it easy enough to figure out. Reminds me of parents who get mad at teachers because their kid failed. Ridiculous. If the puzzle or challenge was the only option and there were no other ways to beat the level/game/puzzle/area/etc then the frustration is understandable. But complaining because all the secrets that are unnecessary to finish the game are too hard to find is silly.

There's a puzzle in King's Quest 1 where you have to get to the cloud world to get a treasure chest from a giant. There are two ways to get there. Both involve talking to the same character. You have to guess a gnome's name and if you get it wrong he gives you a key to a magic door which leads to a cavern with a stairway to the cloudland. If you guess it right he gives you magic beans which you plant and which grow into a giant beanstalk so you can climb to cloudland. The obvious answer is "Rumplestiltskin", however that's not correct. The game does let you know that you're on the right track with your line of thinking, though. The correct solution to the puzzle is hinted at with a note you find in a witch's cottage in the forest which seems to be there for no reason that just reads "sometimes it is wise to think backwards". So if you have the forward thinking to connect the clue with that particular puzzle you may figure that all you have to do is type "Rumplestiltskin" backwards. But that's not correct either (but, again, the game hints that you are on the right track). The correct solution is to write out the whole alphabet on paper, then write out the whole alphabet again underneath but backwards, then match the letters for the name "Rumplestiltskin" in the backwards alphabet which is some unintelligible mess of consonants and vowels.

Many complain about this to this day and call it bad game design but I staunchly disagree. Those games were small back then in 1983 and one of the ways to prolong gameplay or add replay value was to add the points system. You can finish the entire game without full points. You could play again to try to finish the game the correct way and get full points but you don't HAVE to. Guessing the gnome's name in a backwards alphabet may seem "unfair" but imagine back in the day when you have no internet to rely on for hints and it's just you and the game. Imagine finally putting it all together and getting that puzzle correct. You'd be over the moon. It's not outdated and it's not bad design, it's an added challenge that you can choose to commit yourself to overcoming or not. There's nothing wrong with that. The Rumplestiltskin puzzle was the biggest puzzle and the final greatest challenge to overcome to get full points. But it's entirely inconsequential to finishing the game.

[Micky C]

Forge, on 03 April 2018 - 05:31 AM, said:

The end result is the same.
What exactly is your argument?

The end result would not be the same if the distribution of weapons or ammo is different in the different areas.

Forge, on 03 April 2018 - 08:35 AM, said:

like the very first level
go through the entire garage structure and control rooms
-or-
go up the ladder hidden in the ceiling vent, blow up the gate, drop down into the next section

I haven't figured out how to lower that ladder. It's a far cry from having a crate next to a ledge in an otherwise near-completely empty street.

Merlijn, on 03 April 2018 - 07:57 AM, said:

I think Ion Maiden hits the perfect balance between linear progression and freedom of movement so far. Perhaps a few maps could feature more hidden alternate routes or shortcuts for the observant player.
But other than that I'd argue to keep some linearity in there, it adds structure and purpose to a map. Unless there's a clearly defined mission (stuff like: find these 3 reactors and destroy them!)

An objective like that would be interesting, or having items other than simple keycards, such as requiring the player to upload a virus into a computer. Although I admit my example is probably going beyond what the game is trying to do in terms of story, and that it's difficult to implement such objectives without some kind of PDU, which I don't see the devs implementing.

[Forge]

Micky C, on 03 April 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

The end result would not be the same if the distribution of weapons or ammo is different in the different areas.

Not really, And that's splitting very fine hairs.

Take the street section outside the office building - that could easily be divided up into "locked" areas all using the same colored key & having a switch or something needed to get into the office building.

Nothing's changed except those additional areas are now mandatory to visit. Just in no particular order.

[Danukem]

Micky C, on 02 April 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

So, while the levels are non-linear on a micro scale, they're very linear on a macro scale, hampering the replay value.

I'm going to pick on this post in a different way. Rather than challenge the assertion that the levels are linear, I'm going to challenge the conclusion that this reduces replay value. I don't agree that replay value is necessarily linked with linearity. Linear games can have a lot of replay value, and very open games can lack replay value. Replay value is more a function of the core gameplay loop being fun, combined with the possibility of improving at the game in various ways (playing faster, getting more or better items, or just executing it more skillfully).

[OpenMaw]

Trooper Dan, on 03 April 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

I'm going to pick on this post in a different way. Rather than challenge the assertion that the levels are linear, I'm going to challenge the conclusion that this reduces replay value. I don't agree that replay value is necessarily linked with linearity. Linear games can have a lot of replay value, and very open games can lack replay value. Replay value is more a function of the core gameplay loop being fun, combined with the possibility of improving at the game in various ways (playing faster, getting more or better items, or just executing it more skillfully).

Indeed, it's why the original Duke and Doom maps bring people back time and time again, and why they inspire so many remakes and re-imaginings.

[Hank]

Trooper Dan, on 03 April 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

I'm going to pick on this post in a different way. Rather than challenge the assertion that the levels are linear, I'm going to challenge the conclusion that this reduces replay value. I don't agree that replay value is necessarily linked with linearity. Linear games can have a lot of replay value, and very open games can lack replay value. Replay value is more a function of the core gameplay loop being fun, combined with the possibility of improving at the game in various ways (playing faster, getting more or better items, or just executing it more skillfully).

to in bold.
I read some of the hints of Ion Maiden. Aiming/shooting at the head gives better kills. So I am trying to go through this level using only the pistol (Loverboy?) Lot's of fun, and replay value in my books.

As for the secrets, I found 2/3. Hours played so far, 12. I'm hooked.

[MusicallyInspired]

Lol I love you guys.

[TerminX]

Google keeps "correcting" Ion Maiden to Iron Maiden, so I thought to myself "how can I create links on a bunch of pages with the text 'Ion Maiden'?"

Who knows if it will have any effect...

[OpenMaw]

TerminX, on 03 April 2018 - 09:42 PM, said:

Google keeps "correcting" Ion Maiden to Iron Maiden, so I thought to myself "how can I create links on a bunch of pages with the text 'Ion Maiden'?"

Who knows if it will have any effect...

Ion Maiden Ion Maiden Ion Maiden.

Just gotta pump the name into the tubes of the internet. Eventually Google will get it. On that day people will punch in "Iron Maiden" and Google will say....



"DID YOU MEAN 'ION MAIDEN'?"

[NightFright]

In one year, Google will correct "Iron Maiden" to "Ion Maiden". It's inevitable.

[necroslut]

MusicallyInspired, on 03 April 2018 - 12:51 PM, said:

<rant incoming> [...]

Indeed, the idea that players "deserve" 100% is destructive. If you have a hangup making it impossible for you to NOT complete EVERYTHING, then that's a problem you have and you should try to deal with that instead of trying to force the world to adapt to your issues, you SJW. Obsessive-compulsive-completionists suck.

[Zaxx]

necroslut, on 04 April 2018 - 02:17 AM, said:

Indeed, the idea that players "deserve" 100% is destructive.

Word but the problem is that players in this day and age are conditioned to be completionists because AAA titles nowadays are all about "content" and not about gameplay. You fire up some open world game like Assassin's Creed and you'll quickly notice that the gameplay itself is shallow and you're doing the same things over and over again because the point is not to make an enjoyable gameplay experience but rather to create a serviceable gameplay loop that gets expanded by dangling shiny objects before the player. You're not playing those games because you're having a super enjoyable time with them, you're playing them because you're addicted to the instant gratification of "finding content", if it was about the gameplay you'd get bored and leave after an hour.

Now tell that audience that all secrets are not meant to be found on a first playthrough in a classic FPS and they'll don't know what the hell you're talking about. Finding a new secret after years in a classic shooter is a magical feeling but the retarded "consumers" of today's AAA market will never understand that.

[MusicallyInspired]

EDIT: Original post removed. I don't do double negatives good.

I'm an obsessive-compulsive completionist, but I like to earn it.

[MrFlibble]

MusicallyInspired, on 03 April 2018 - 12:51 PM, said:

There's a puzzle in King's Quest 1 where you have to get to the cloud world to get a treasure chest from a giant.

Spoiler

There are two ways to get there. Both involve talking to the same character. You have to guess a gnome's name and if you get it wrong he gives you a key to a magic door which leads to a cavern with a stairway to the cloudland. If you guess it right he gives you magic beans which you plant and which grow into a giant beanstalk so you can climb to cloudland. The obvious answer is "Rumplestiltskin", however that's not correct. The game does let you know that you're on the right track with your line of thinking, though. The correct solution to the puzzle is hinted at with a note you find in a witch's cottage in the forest which seems to be there for no reason that just reads "sometimes it is wise to think backwards". So if you have the forward thinking to connect the clue with that particular puzzle you may figure that all you have to do is type "Rumplestiltskin" backwards. But that's not correct either (but, again, the game hints that you are on the right track). The correct solution is to write out the whole alphabet on paper, then write out the whole alphabet again underneath but backwards, then match the letters for the name "Rumplestiltskin" in the backwards alphabet which is some unintelligible mess of consonants and vowels.

I've never played any King's Quest games and I'm generally not a fan of the adventure genre, but right now my respect for Roberta Williams just jumped to like 500% [/offtopic]

[NNC]

To clarify things, I'm not against secrets. In fact, I love secrets. They are one of the many reasons I love Build-era FPS games. I also never said player deserves 100%.

I just said finding secrets (or even more so: BEATING secrets) shouldn't hinder your original campaign. When you have to push a chair from one side of the map to the other side, and granted, it's very easy to screw things up, and your reward is not that big, it's not fun anymore, but an annoying micro-management which can ruin many people's experience. Also I don't know secrets from any of the original Build games where you can die as easily as in the platforming secret in the office building. Platforming never worked well in FPS in my opinion.

For me a great secret place is like the one in Warp Factor. A hidden button that opens a door somewhere else. It also leads to a surprise place, so your reward is really high. There are little effort secrets as well with little reward, those should be there for satisfaction to the players.

Also you shouldn't forget this is a commercial release, so it shouldn't be treated as a gift to the community, and something like "completists suck" opinion is not helpful at all here. We should really tell now every single nitpick we don't like in my opinion, that will make the game better in the final release.

[Sanek]

NightFright, on 03 April 2018 - 10:02 PM, said:

In one year, Google will correct "Iron Maiden" to "Ion Maiden". It's inevitable.

When I first read the game's title, I immediately thought that it was a terrible name for a game (from the commercial standpoint), since the random people will not be able to even find the game if they'll google it . On the other hand, the game have it's target audience; I don't think that people will play it unless they enjoyed simillar games.

Btw, the russian version of Google show the Ion Maiden without any corrections.


EDIT: On the contrary, Yandex (the premiere russian searcher) didn't show up Ion Maiden at all. It corrects the "typo" automatically.

[MusicallyInspired]

Nancsi, on 04 April 2018 - 05:33 AM, said:

I just said finding secrets (or even more so: BEATING secrets) shouldn't hinder your original campaign.

But it....doesn't.

Quote

When you have to push a chair from one side of the map to the other side, and granted, it's very easy to screw things up, and your reward is not that big, it's not fun anymore, but an annoying micro-management which can ruin many people's experience.

Speak for yourself. And that's not necessary to complete the game. This is a secret. You don't want to go through it, don't do it. I like earning my rewards, thank you. Even if it takes a difficult challenge to receive. You must not like games like Super Meat Boy very much do you? Finding some secrets in Super Metroid is another good example.

Quote

Also I don't know secrets from any of the original Build games where you can die as easily as in the platforming secret in the office building. Platforming never worked well in FPS in my opinion.

Which secret are you talking about?

Spoiler

The one where you jump out the window from the bathroom (I think) onto the adjacent balcony?

I got that on the second try. And only because the first time I wasn't 100% sure of the method. Once I died I understood immediately what I had to do instead and it was a cakewalk. I know it's not that easy for everyone, but it can be.

Quote

For me a great secret place is like the one in Warp Factor. A hidden button that opens a door somewhere else. It also leads to a surprise place, so your reward is really high. There are little effort secrets as well with little reward, those should be there for satisfaction to the players.

Also you shouldn't forget this is a commercial release, so it shouldn't be treated as a gift to the community, and something like "completists suck" opinion is not helpful at all here. We should really tell now every single nitpick we don't like in my opinion, that will make the game better in the final release.

I agree that saying completionists suck is unproductive, but this can be a dangerous line of thinking. If everyone and their dog submitted their "picked nits" on refining (in their minds) the game to perfection, you end up with a bunch of conflicting feedback and, worst-case scenario, you end up with a homogenized soulless husk of something that was great. Feedback is certainly important, but it must be weighed with the original intentions of the design so it can be steered accordingly. Not all feedback is worth listening to. When Double-Fine was beta testing Broken Age to outside journalists and such one of the bits of feedback was that a certain section that repeated over and over and over again was monotonous and looked at as bad design, but that was the whole POINT of the sequence. To get you get sick of it and try to break the cycle. If Tim Schafer removed that the whole effect would have been lost as it was also a major part of the plot. But it would have been "more fun" for some players (who didn't get it) if it didn't exist. But the game would have been worse for it.

I love the secrets in this game, personally.

[Hank]

TerminX, on 03 April 2018 - 09:42 PM, said:

Google keeps "correcting" Ion Maiden to Iron Maiden, so I thought to myself "how can I create links on a bunch of pages with the text 'Ion Maiden'?"

Who knows if it will have any effect...

Prolly stupid suggestion, but this is what I am.

How about "Ion" Maiden? If you type "Ion" Maiden, it forces the search engine to look for Ion.

I don't use Google Spy, below is DuckDuckGo

 IonMaidenHits.jpg (237.27K)
Number of downloads: 13

[Forge]

Hank, on 04 April 2018 - 08:02 AM, said:

How about "Ion" Maiden? If you type "Ion" Maiden, it forces the search engine to look for Ion.

I don't use Google Spy, below is DuckDuckGo

google spy & bing spy have the same result as duck.
it defaults to iron maiden, but you can click, "show only 'ion maiden' results"