[Player Lin]

I play SiN and HL1 but whatever haters said, I still love both of them...

Oh, except the SiN:WoS... not found a chance to get it and play, since I already have Steam version of SiN but not want to buy a GoG version of it.


-Stupid rants warning, in below...-

Spoiler

I like Daikatana, seriously, I don't care you didn't want give shit on John Romero, It's sounds like the same as fanboys and haters will said and that's your problem. Blood 2? I hate it forever until someday it get updates and I can play on my system without Input problem((key-bindings-all-nulled with latest updates), wasted my few dollars for test its Steam version and unable to play it. *sigh*

PikaCommando, on 30 September 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

Since the thread has already derailed, does anyone know any FPS/TPS that has Las Vegas levels in it? I only know of DNF, Nitro Family, and Rainbow Six Vegas.

Fallout : New Vegas counts? I know it's not exactly the "Las Vegas" but based on it.

[PikaCommando]

Player Lin, on 30 September 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

I play SiN and HL1 but whatever haters said, I still love both of them...

Oh, except the SiN:WoS... not found a chance to get it and play, since I already have Steam version of SiN but not want to buy a GoG version of it.


-Stupid rants warning, in below...-

Spoiler

I like Daikatana, seriously, I don't care you didn't want give shit on John Romero, It's sounds like the same as fanboys and haters will said and that's your problem. Blood 2? I hate it forever until someday it get updates and I can play on my system without Input problem((key-bindings-all-nulled with latest updates), wasted my few dollars for test its Steam version and unable to play it. *sigh*

Fallout : New Vegas counts? I know it's not exactly the "Las Vegas" but based on it.

Here is a patch for the Steam version of SiN, that not only restores the original textures (because Steam thought it was NSFW) and unused music (because typos in level scripts) but also adds in Wages of SiN.



Why can't there be a good FPS with Las Vegas levels in it? Fallout: NV doesn't really count because it doesn't quite capture the glory of Las Vegas (you know, it being destroyed and mostly a wasteland). This is why I was so hyped for DNF at first. Who in their right mind would put Las Vegas in daylight? I thought everybody already knew that daytime Las Vegas sucks, as proven in Rainbow Six Vegas 2.

[Player Lin]

PikaCommando, on 30 September 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

Here is a patch for the Steam version of SiN, that not only restores the original textures (because Steam thought it was NSFW) and unused music (because typos in level scripts) but also adds in Wages of SiN.

Oh, neat... maybe I will try that when I have time to play SiN again , thanks.

EDIT: No, I just realizing I still needed to get a copy of WoS expansion legally to play it on patched Steam SiN...

PikaCommando, on 30 September 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

Why can't there be a good FPS with Las Vegas levels in it? Fallout: NV doesn't really count because it doesn't quite capture the glory of Las Vegas (you know, it being destroyed and mostly a wasteland). This is why I was so hyped for DNF at first. Who in their right mind would put Las Vegas in daylight? I thought everybody already knew that daytime Las Vegas sucks, as proven in Rainbow Six Vegas 2.

Well, in FNV, the core area of old Las Vegas(named The Strip) still not totally damaged at all, but yes, the rest surrounding areas are.

It seems many games related Las Vegas likely about gambling games.

I checked this but I guess it's not complete...like DNF is not in the list since it's not clear DNF was set on Las Vegas... :\

[MetHy]

I kept hearing about how great Sin is and all that. So, I gave up a 2nd try. Some years ago I tried it and couldn't get into it.

I still can't get into it. I hate how all the pistols and machineguns are projectile (versus hitscan), and slow ones at that. It aims for 'realism' but it makes the game feel floaty, it's like you have to aim next to your enemy and it feels like everything is happening a second after it should.

The controls, player and mouse movements, feel very floaty too, no matter how I configure it.

The game looks like it has some cool stuff and some cool level design, but if the base gameplay isn't fun, then the game's simply not fun for me. I admit I didn't get very far, as the controls and the gunplay repulse me. If you tell me the game switches the guns for ones that don't feel like ass after the first levels, then I'll give it another try.

[PikaCommando]

Are we playing the same game? The bullet-based weapons in SiN are all hitscans.

[MetHy]

I don't know, I've been playing version 1.12, Steam version. Came with Sin Emergence. Apparently that version sucks though so I guess I'll have to try another one.

[PikaCommando]

So far the only complaints I heard about v1.12 is that certain textures are censored and that Wages of Sin is not included, but that's about it. Just apply the patch I posted above to fix both.

[Cage]

Am I the only one to whom the whole Sin vs. HL discussion reminds of those stupid Hendrix vs. SRV (or insert whatever else here) arguments in the comments section on YouTube? Everyone has his mind pretty set on the matter, so it turns out to be a "Look at me, I'm right!" argument. I think it's pretty objective to say that both are two great games that you can choose to play or not to!

For me Half-Life was amazing, I always loved the "show, don't tell" approach it had to the story and the sequences which are great (at least the first time you see them). Sin on the other hand was very clever in design, fun and had a ton of character.

They both suck compared to System Shock 2 though</bait>

[PikaCommando]

System Shock 2 is only good for the ending.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Cage, on 30 September 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

Hendrix vs. SRV

Stevie Ray Vaughan lived longer, ergo he made more good music.

[Hendricks266]

Cage, on 30 September 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

For me Half-Life was amazing, I always loved the "show, don't tell" approach it had to the story and the sequences which are great (at least the first time you see them).

"Show, don't tell" is good for a passive medium like a film, but an active one like a game should aim for "do, don't show".

[Daedolon]

Can't stress what Hendricks266 wrote enough.

[MusicallyInspired]

I've never played SiN so I can't enter into the SiN vs HL debate.

[Steve 64]

I have never played sin either but I have played Half Life for the ps2, I did enjoy playing it, if im not wrong the ps2 version had coop and pc didn't right you play someone else on the coop

[Loke]

Demon Duke, on 30 September 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

I have never played sin either but I have played Half Life for the ps2, I did enjoy playing it, if im not wrong the ps2 version had coop and pc didn't right you play someone else on the coop

Yeah, you played as two chicks. There was also a PC port for it here.

There was also a bonus map in the PS2 version in which you could play as a Vortigaunt.

[Daedolon]

This?

[Striker]

Person of Color, on 26 September 2015 - 09:56 PM, said:

Half-Life is the most overrated game of all time, ever, full stop. It's everything a first person shooter SHOULDN'T be. It's slow, boring, the enemies are tiny and irritating (Except the Xen and soldiers), it has endless needless puzzles that artificially inflate the game's length and slow it down even further, and the environments are among the most uninspired ever. I mean seriously, a giant subterranean top secret research base and it looks like THAT?! It's the original "brown and bloom" shooter.

On top of all that shit I have never played a first person shooter that completely fails to reward the player for anything. The enemies don't feel satisfying when you kill them, the puzzles are so tedious you just sigh and 'thank God', and there's a terrible sense of forward progression. It's downright fucking circular. You spend all your time solving inane puzzles which usually involve hitting the right buttons to move some broken shit out of the way, then discovering you need to find another button. Meanwhile you've shot maybe ten guys in twenty minutes...if you're lucky. When it's all said and done, you've moved forward 500 yards.

Oh yeah, and the controls! Boy do they suck! It's one of the worst handling shooters of the 90's. You move fast and loose and the ladder controls are the worst I have ever experienced. Precision shooting is a nightmare, and platforming is a night terror! But don't worry. There's plenty of both! Plus it's got more ladders than Donkey Kong!

All you do is fall and die in this game.

Oh, and the cherry on top? The laziness. There's maybe four character models and six voices in the whole game. Memory limitations my ass - this game has more loading and unloading than the docks at a warehouse and you can totally switch out character models in a heartbeat. You end up viewing survivors as props and not giving a shit - it's one of the biggest fourth wall breakers in history.

You know what really pisses me off though? How people still say it was "innovative." It didn't take one risk. Not fucking one. Just a bunch of mild changes - that's why only a few years after it came out it was already dated as hell. Meanwhile, SiN is still groundbreaking by 2015 standards.

Fuck Half-Life. Hard. It's one of the worst "genre fusions" out there. A bad adventure game mixed with a downright abysmal shooter. It's popularity proves that people have absolutely no idea what good game design elements are. There's a reason Half-Life 2 is much more intense, Valve wanted to make a good game.

I agree with some of the points here. Thankfully Black Mesa fixes a fuckton of that crap however. (Feels more like Half-Life 2.)

[Person of Color]

PikaCommando, on 30 September 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

I've played SiN and WoS again and again, and I'm pretty sure it's still flawed. There are some things you just can't fix with patches, namely the level design and the cheap ass insta-hitscan-damage-on-sight enemies.

The snipers give you audiovisual warnings everywhere EXCEPT the Aqueducts exit. Those ones are fucking bullshit. And that one in the mansion foyer that you can't see. Aside from that I never had a problem with cheap snipers. They're always at the corners of buildings or on those telescoping platforms. Also, in levels where you're in close proximity to them, you always hear things like "Scanning..." or "Target acquired!" so you know they are close by. I actually like the snipers in this game, because they give you ample opportunity to kill them, but they WILL fuck you up hard body style.

I don't have an issue with any level except the Mountain Gorge...which WOULD be awesome with better vehicle controls, and still has an awesome ending on foot.

One of the reasons I think people have an issue with SiN is because you need to play it like something that just came out. This isn't a retro FPS, it just shoots like one.

Quote

Also I didn't realize Biomass Reclamation Center to be a secret level, because 3/4 of that shit you described are pretty much what you need to do to pass Geothermal Plant (which is not a secret level by the way, it just has multiple parts). Containment Area 57 isn't a secret level either. Pretty sure the only levels that can qualify as true secret levels are Freeport Aqueducts, Missile Silo, and Biomass Reclamation Center. Overall it comes off as less polished than Half-Life. But hey, at least it aged better than Unreal.

The Geothermal Plant is extremely well hidden and requires seriously deviating from the path of the Hidden Docks...it's mentioned as a secondary objective but good luck finding it. I found all those levels though, you just have to be good at games.

Also Missle Silo <3 <3 <3. One of my favorite FPS levels ever. I actually beat it, then rebeat after I got off work the next day because I loved it so much.

Quote

Also as someone who played Daikatana over and over again (because it's nowhere as bad as Blood 2),

Oh man, I don't even know what to make of this. I forced myself through the first episode and gave up at like E2M2. That game sucks so much ass. How the fuck can anyone enjoy it? It's so thoroughly mediocre with tiny flashes of brilliance.

Quote

the difference between the mosquitoes and the frogs and the Headcrabs are that you can actually see the headcrabs. The mosquitoes and the frogs are disguised by the environment so you can barely see where they're coming from. Not to mention, the frogs have ranged attacks and the mosquitoes have that really fucking annoying sound (not to mention being one-dimensional because of how flat the model is).

I rarely have had trouble seeing them. They're not fun to shoot for the same reasons Half-Life's aren't. They're small, they swarm you, they're hard to hit, and their primary purpose is to get in your way. Also in Daikatana the frogs are loud as shit so if I can't see them I can estimate their position.

Quote

The sounds in Half-Life are great too, particularly the enemy death sounds. The weapons sound powerful, unlike the weak pew-pew in SiN. I also don't get why you keep hating on the "puzzles" in Half-Life, because they are so ridiculously easy I didn't even realize they were puzzles.

I'll admit not all of SiN's weapons sound great but they feel great to use. So do Half-Life's. The problem is killing enemies in SiN feels FUCKING GREAT and Half-Life's deaths are anti-climatic as fuck save for the headcrab gurgle, which feels so right.

Quote

The levels flow pretty well too, unlike the backtrack-fest that is most of the later SiN levels. Also, I'm pretty sure a lot of people agree that it's way faster and more non-linear than Half-Life 2.

What SiN levels are you playing? And even when you do have to backtrack it takes almost no time at all and they're non linear anyway so you're still finding new shit. It doesn't even feel like you're backtracking.

Quote

In short, aren't you doing the same things the Half-Life fans are doing? Only talking about the good stuff and ignore the bad ones for your favorite game, while doing the opposite for other games that people like more over your favorite one. If I did that, that would have made Blood 2 the best game ever.

I'm not ignoring anything. I genuinely didn't have issues with SiN. It's a very hard game and if you don't play it after a good night's sleep, you'll fuck things up. You really need to be at your mental peak or else you get your ass kicked and have trouble completing objectives.

As for Half Life's puzzles (You mentioned this earlier, but I deleted it by accident), they aren't hard. They're just uncreative and destroy any sense of forward progression, and there's a never ending stream of them.

Quote

By the way, the people who made the amazing Wages of Sin are also the people who made Call of Duty :V

Oy vey!

Spastic Lagomorph, on 30 September 2015 - 03:14 AM, said:

By the way, enemy combat in Half-Life was pretty awful. The main thing I appreciated about the game was the atmosphere. I could do without the enemies really. Heck, you could transplant the imps and demons from DooM and it'd be better.

*fistbump*

I don't know why people defend the combat in this game. The grunts are fine, but what's the point if they're only in a few segments of the game? Like I said before, it can't combine two genres to save it's own life. The fucking game trips over itself at every opportunity.

[Person of Color]

Spastic Lagomorph, on 30 September 2015 - 03:25 AM, said:

But all of the above games are still better than DUKE NUKEM FOREVER!

Spoiler

[/taking the piss out of Gearbox]

Spoiler

[/double post for emphasis]

DNF is better than Half-Life, but not by much. I could actually finish DNF. They both have shitty pacing but at least with DNF I'm moving forward all the time.

MetHy, on 30 September 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

I kept hearing about how great Sin is and all that. So, I gave up a 2nd try. Some years ago I tried it and couldn't get into it.

I still can't get into it. I hate how all the pistols and machineguns are projectile (versus hitscan), and slow ones at that. It aims for 'realism' but it makes the game feel floaty, it's like you have to aim next to your enemy and it feels like everything is happening a second after it should.

The controls, player and mouse movements, feel very floaty too, no matter how I configure it.

The game looks like it has some cool stuff and some cool level design, but if the base gameplay isn't fun, then the game's simply not fun for me. I admit I didn't get very far, as the controls and the gunplay repulse me. If you tell me the game switches the guns for ones that don't feel like ass after the first levels, then I'll give it another try.

Sounds like you're having OpenGL vsync issues.

Okay, NOW I'm done. Fuck this.

[Gambini]

MetHy, on 30 September 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

I don't know, I've been playing version 1.12, Steam version. Came with Sin Emergence. Apparently that version sucks though so I guess I'll have to try another one.

I went through the whole game twice in its times. It´s all about getting past the abandoned buildings mission (which is what comes next after the bank robbery). After that things get much better. It was a great game. I advice you to give it a chance.

I remember the HL vs Sin war, it was on the magazines of those times. Half Life of course won the battle, aided by the fact that Ritual released their game too early, being forced to patch it multiple times later.

[Micky C]

I enjoyed that level, IIRC it had some nice design.

Does no one else not like that stealth level where you break into the facility?

[Person of Color]

I like the stealth level. I thought it was pretty easy and only got caught a few times. Beating guys up is easy as long as they aren't in a lab. The next mission is much easier if you get the uniform out of the locker room though.

[OpenMaw]

Person of Color, on 30 September 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

DNF is better than Half-Life, but not by much. I could actually finish DNF. They both have shitty pacing but at least with DNF I'm moving forward all the time.

I... You know I can agree with some of the points you've made about Half-Life, but, not this. No. I mean DNF, in it's quest to steal everything from everyone ever, rips off some of the worst scripted sequence bullshit of Half-Life and Half-Life 2. The long as fuck opening where you can't shoot or do anything? The endless locked-in scripted events and shit? I mean come on dude.

[Micky C]

Surely DNF was worse in that regard. I don't remember getting locked in that much from what I played of half life. And even when I was, it was much more reasonable. I mean not being able to walk past a man and his son until you give him your autograph, despite all the space either side, is just unforgivable.

[PikaCommando]

I wasn't talking about the snipers. I'm talking about every human enemies in the game, which suffered from the same 100% accurate damage on sight problem as the human enemies in Blood 2. At least all the enemies in Half-Life gave you time to react, whereas in this you had no chance because computers. And I'm pretty sure this is supposed to be an action FPS, not a stealth game.


By the way, I don't remember any backtracking in Half-Life. The only one I remember is the one where you first get the Tau Cannon and have to rescue the scientists to open the door to the surface and the Tentacle boss fight. Also for SiN, I already found everything on my first playthrough, so I end up going around the levels which leads to bad memories of backtracking that Half-Life never gave me because it all felt so natural (plus there's only one instance). imo SiN's first episode is the best, the rest all sucked imo, especially starting from the sea levels. Thrall Master is piss-easy as the Makron, as opposed to the challenging Nihilanth. As for Daikatana, it's only the second episode that's usually considered good, although I liked the fourth episode more. Also Daikatana's final boss, Kage Mishima, is what I consider to be the hardest boss I've fought in FPS.

Also, SiN's difficulty is what I call artificial difficulty. The game would be a lot easier if the human enemies doesn't damage you instantly on sight and indeed it is, I never had any problems with the mutants. I mean come on, even DN3D's Battlelord doesn't damage you instantly on sight. As I said already, Half-Life's puzzles doesn't even feel like puzzles, so I always felt like progressing forward. The difference between DNF and HL is that in HL you progress forward faster.

[OpenMaw]

Micky C, on 30 September 2015 - 11:44 PM, said:

Surely DNF was worse in that regard. I don't remember getting locked in that much from what I played of half life. And even when I was, it was much more reasonable. I mean not being able to walk past a man and his son until you give him your autograph, despite all the space either side, is just unforgivable.

That's exactly what i'm saying. DNF is definitely not better than Half-Life. Especially when it comes to scripted bullshit. Hence what I said. The opening two levels, all the sequences throughout the game that bring gameplay to an utter halt. Imitating Half-life and Half-Life 2's usage of scripted events, but way worse.

[Player Lin]

Yeah, I agree SiN's hitscan enemies are super accurate for no reasons and make player miserable in higher difficulty(if you're not fast to react as those AIs.), it could be annoying.
I always take at least one or two hits when face those human enemies whatever I do, I guess that's why those enemies always drop items to "balance"...but I guess I can accept that, since it didn't made me rage-quit or stop play and love SiN.

It also reminds about when first time I tried to play the highest difficulty, I didn't noticed that problem when I was play on Easy. And my poor Blade's body got sliced into pieces(*) a lot of times in the first mission so many times.....

(*):The good'ol Quake 2 engine cliche -- characters turn into pieces when health < 0, or bigger negative values. But I haven't play SiN for a while so I'm not sure about these things...

[PsychoGoatee]

Commando Nukem, on 01 October 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

That's exactly what i'm saying. DNF is definitely not better than Half-Life. Especially when it comes to scripted bullshit. Hence what I said. The opening two levels, all the sequences throughout the game that bring gameplay to an utter halt. Imitating Half-life and Half-Life 2's usage of scripted events, but way worse.

Well, I like DNF better. But I find the scripted stuff funny myself. I know I'm an oddball on that one. I'm an HL fan too. I agree overall with what you're saying though, the way that since HL so many FPSs have replaced cutscenes with unskippable first person dialogue scenes and stuff like that, overall it's not a plus. The worst offender for me is FarCry4. The cutscenes are all unskippable, you can't even move during them, and they are just insanely dull and poorly written too. Just annoying people talking at you up close in first person for seemingly endless amounts of time.

[OpenMaw]

It's fine if it's here and there. Ya know, once in awhile. Or if it's a couple characters talking on the side that you can just walk by. There's a sequence in DNF just before the unskippable kid signing sequence where the characters block the hall so you HAVE to watch a news report. As if the story in Duke Nukem Forever was somehow paramount to you understanding what you need to do. There was literally no need to force the player to watch that. I think a lot of those things would have been far more enjoyable if they were "on the side" and not forced upon you. As in Duke 3D where a lot of the story is derived from elements in the environment and they don't intrude on the immediate concerns of the player - Shooting aliens, finding keys, exploring the maps. The more you mess with the player, the thicker the barrier between the player and the immersion into your game world.

[Tea Monster]

Half Life was and is a great game. It tried to present something different from every other shooter out there. The creatures were designed to be creatures, with different abilities and defence mechanisms, not just a procession of things with claws.

DNF was a complete mess and a failure on so many levels - that isn't counting in what it could or should have been as a high-water mark to measure its fall from.

I've started playing SIN and I haven't got to anything really interesting. The weapons seem kind of mehhhh, and the controls are a bit floaty. The level and character design is great though. I am getting that "This is what an early version of DNF could have been like" vibe off it.