[PokeThePower]

Holy shit I've missed a great thread. Great insights, everyone.

It's honestly a bit surreal to watch the perspectives I've been attempting to ooze out slowly come crashing out quickly due to others having some degree of access to the history.

icecoldduke, on 01 December 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

It's just sad they didn't focus on the fun and focused solely on the tech, which always ends in disaster.

Yeah yeah yeah... not everyone was focused on the tech. You can microwave a rat in any tech... but you can only give an achievement for it on consoles. Bastards.

Ahhh crap... steam has achievements. I give up!!!!

[PokeThePower]

Frederik Schreiber, on 01 December 2014 - 02:57 AM, said:

The First Build is the Sidescroller. The one afterwards is an old Quake 1 build, which is primarily using Quake 1 assets, and a few new Duke assets, before they switched to Quake 2. Purely for experimenting with BSP based leveldesign, and getting to know the Quake engine.
The switch from Quake 1 - 2 literally happened within months, so there isn't a lot of content in the Quake 1 builds.
Quake 2 also lasted briefly, and everything you see in the 1998 trailer is literally 90% of what was done. The announcement to switch to Unreal Engine, actually happened before E3 1998.
The first Unreal builds, also consisted primarily of Unreal 1 assets. In 99 they had early versions of a few levels, and weapons done, which resulted in the 99 screenshots. Afterwards development sped up, and in late 2002, the "DNF 2001" build was at it's best, before changing to a new dynamic lighting renderer, which focused on normal maps instead (Doom 3 style).
From then on, the game completely changed, and almost everything was scrapped in small segments. All levels turned out black, as a result of implementing a fully dynamic lighting engine (Just like Doom 3, and Deus Ex 2). Assets were added, replaced, and ultimately large parts of the game was completely scrapped and redone.
The 2002 - 2009 builds ultimately makes up the version of the game you guys know today.

You definitely have the assets! /salute

Now get the videos from Gearbox!!! /hug

I lost my virginity in 2001, and wound up bedridden for 3 months due to a violent car crash the night after losing my virginity. The shift to Doom 3 style technology happened while I was bedridden and on pain killers.

I'd do it all over again... but the shift to new lighting was a firm nail in the coffin.

[Micky C]

Wieder, on 09 December 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

You can microwave a rat

The worst part is that obviously focused interactive bits like that only served to highlight how non-interactive the rest of the game is (which is very).

[PokeThePower]

Micky C, on 09 December 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

The worst part is that obviously focused interactive bits like that only served to highlight how non-interactive the rest of the game is (which is very).

"...the rest of the game became."

It wasn't an especially focused bit, it was trivial to setup using the interactivity system and scripting structure.

[Lunick]

Wieder, on 09 December 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

I lost my virginity in 2001, and wound up bedridden for 3 months due to a violent car crash the night after losing my virginity. The shift to Doom 3 style technology happened while I was bedridden and on pain killers.

This could be a story for a good book.

[Hendricks266]

Lunick, on 09 December 2014 - 10:47 PM, said:

This could be a story for a good book.

A sad book. It could be like the reverse of The Bell Jar, where the protagonist loses their virginity at the start instead of the end and then goes on for a whole book narrating their illness.

[PokeThePower]

Hendricks266, on 09 December 2014 - 10:55 PM, said:

...and then goes on for a whole book narrating their illness.

You know me far too well.

I guess I only have myself to blame.

[Micky C]

Wieder, on 09 December 2014 - 10:36 PM, said:

It wasn't an especially focused bit, it was trivial to setup using the interactivity system and scripting structure.

If an easy-to-use sophisticated scripting system was in place, it would have been cool to see what would be possible with mod tools. Then again it probably wouldn't be anything you couldn't achieve similar results with in other engines.

[KareBear]

http://autodestructd...hives-pt-3.html

Charlie on this page you can see concepts of "Singularity Guns".Im assuming it was to be a BFG/Nuke type weapon if it ever made in into the game?

[Frederik Schreiber]

Wieder, on 09 December 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

You definitely have the assets! /salute

Now get the videos from Gearbox!!! /hug

I lost my virginity in 2001, and wound up bedridden for 3 months due to a violent car crash the night after losing my virginity. The shift to Doom 3 style technology happened while I was bedridden and on pain killers.

I'd do it all over again... but the shift to new lighting was a firm nail in the coffin.

Videos? Why would we want videos?

Yes, the Doom 3 Style Switch was definitely the nail in the coffin.
A lot of great stuff in the prev. builds. My favourite part is probably the EDF "Tower" level, which starts with the highway, and the 747 crashing.
This is also where you experience the "Save the world all by yourself" scene, before reaching the top floor, cracking a code, and getting a hologram briefing of alien tech, before an aircraft crashes into the building.
Absolutely stunning and mind-blowing back in 2001.

KareBear, on 10 December 2014 - 01:59 AM, said:

http://autodestructd...hives-pt-3.html

Charlie on this page you can see concepts of "Singularity Guns".Im assuming it was to be a BFG/Nuke type weapon if it ever made in into the game?

This weapon was never implemented in any version of the game. The weapons you see in the final version are pretty much every weapon you had in the prev. versions.
The only main difference was the Flamethrower, Laser Sniper Rifle (The weapon with a row of rings at the top), and the Machinegun (Only the last version of the game had the Ripper). Every weapon back in 2001 - 2002 had multiple firemodes, selectable in an RPG like HUD. For instance, Pipebomb's could be rotated into Sticky Grenades.
The Flamethrower could turn into a "Flamewall" mode, "Acid Spray" mode, etc.

[Richard Shead]

Wieder, on 09 December 2014 - 10:32 PM, said:

You definitely have the assets! /salute

Now get the videos from Gearbox!!! /hug

I lost my virginity in 2001, and wound up bedridden for 3 months due to a violent car crash the night after losing my virginity. The shift to Doom 3 style technology happened while I was bedridden and on pain killers.

I'd do it all over again... but the shift to new lighting was a firm nail in the coffin.

Looks like Charlie getting laid was one of the worst things to happen to DNF! If only you had been around to set them straight and prevented that fatal transition!!!

Frederik Schreiber, on 10 December 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

Videos? Why would we want videos?

Yes, the Doom 3 Style Switch was definitely the nail in the coffin.
A lot of great stuff in the prev. builds. My favourite part is probably the EDF "Tower" level, which starts with the highway, and the 747 crashing.
This is also where you experience the "Save the world all by yourself" scene, before reaching the top floor, cracking a code, and getting a hologram briefing of alien tech, before an aircraft crashes into the building.
Absolutely stunning and mind-blowing back in 2001.

Boy, do I hate you right now!

Seriously though, I know this has been pondered ad nauseam but is there any chance of these builds ever seeing the light of day? Or at least videos of them??

It has been said in the past that not much game content had been produced for the pre-2003 era versions, but I specifically remember the E3 2001 video update on the 3DR site stating that a good three to four hours of gameplay footage was captured to be edited into that infamous trailer. So at the very bare minimum, we have - circa March or April of 2001 - that aforementioned amount of play time. Factor in that what was captured for potential shots in the E3 video were probably highlights of the most polished areas of the game, AND that they continued to work on that iteration until well over a year after May '01, and one can easily conjecture that there's a whole fuckload of unseen fully playable material in existence that would put the 2011 DNF to crying shame.

On a side note, judging from Frederik's description, it looks as though Gambini and the DNF 2013 team were relatively accurate with the 2nd level of their mod!

[DukeNukem64]

I hope that gearbox let's you release the dnf 2001 game as some sort of legacy some day.

[PokeThePower]

Frederik Schreiber, on 10 December 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

Videos? Why would we want videos?

Oh ye of little faith. I'm not talking about recordings of the game you can now launch yourself, I'm talking about behind the scenes stuff akin to the "dev notes" stuff you've already released. As far as this community is concerned, there is some good stuff in them.

Frederik Schreiber, on 10 December 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

A lot of great stuff in the prev. builds. My favourite part is probably the EDF "Tower" level, which starts with the highway, and the 747 crashing.
This is also where you experience the "Save the world all by yourself" scene, before reaching the top floor, cracking a code, and getting a hologram briefing of alien tech, before an aircraft crashes into the building.

If the excellent Mr. John Anderson ever calls you, hire him.

Frederik Schreiber, on 10 December 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

Absolutely stunning and mind-blowing back in 2001.

/salute

Frederik Schreiber, on 10 December 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

This weapon was never implemented in any version of the game. The weapons you see in the final version are pretty much every weapon you had in the prev. versions.
The only main difference was the Flamethrower, Laser Sniper Rifle (The weapon with a row of rings at the top), and the Machinegun (Only the last version of the game had the Ripper). Every weapon back in 2001 - 2002 had multiple firemodes, selectable in an RPG like HUD. For instance, Pipebomb's could be rotated into Sticky Grenades.
The Flamethrower could turn into a "Flamewall" mode, "Acid Spray" mode, etc.

I had honestly given up hope anyone would ever see that stuff.

Do you have a build with all the "blue" weapons with their name written on them?

Duke Rocks, on 10 December 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Looks like Charlie getting laid was one of the worst things to happen to DNF! If only you had been around to set them straight and prevented that fatal transition!!!

I wouldn't have been able to stop the machine... but being 1500 miles away and drugged up definitely made it easier to drive off the cliff. I was completely unconscious through all of 9/11 too, btw.

Duke Rocks, on 10 December 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

It has been said in the past that not much game content had been produced for the pre-2003 era versions,

Only by people who weren't there. Those concepts from Paul Richards bring back some excellent memories btw. I would love to see the "below the ghost town" environments to see the light of day.

Duke Rocks, on 10 December 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

...one can easily conjecture that there's a whole fuckload of unseen fully playable material in existence that would put the 2011 DNF to crying shame.

Fully "touchable" is probably a better description than fully "playable".

[Striker]

A fully finished/reconstructed and polished version of the 2002 DNF would be a fan's dream come true. Fuck it if it's 2001 tech and dated looking, there's a place for that kind of stuff these days, and it would give the game's development cycle the ending it truly deserves.

If only it were possible to get that version of DNF's Source and Editors out to the community, or at least getting a closed dev team put together with assistance from Wieder, who has experience with it already...

Also, before someone insults me, I'm aware Interceptor/3DR do not have the rights. Gearbox does. Just wishful thinking, that's all.

[PikaCommando]

Frederik Schreiber, on 10 December 2014 - 02:24 AM, said:

Videos? Why would we want videos?

Yes, the Doom 3 Style Switch was definitely the nail in the coffin.
A lot of great stuff in the prev. builds. My favourite part is probably the EDF "Tower" level, which starts with the highway, and the 747 crashing.
This is also where you experience the "Save the world all by yourself" scene, before reaching the top floor, cracking a code, and getting a hologram briefing of alien tech, before an aircraft crashes into the building.
Absolutely stunning and mind-blowing back in 2001.



This weapon was never implemented in any version of the game. The weapons you see in the final version are pretty much every weapon you had in the prev. versions.
The only main difference was the Flamethrower, Laser Sniper Rifle (The weapon with a row of rings at the top), and the Machinegun (Only the last version of the game had the Ripper). Every weapon back in 2001 - 2002 had multiple firemodes, selectable in an RPG like HUD. For instance, Pipebomb's could be rotated into Sticky Grenades.
The Flamethrower could turn into a "Flamewall" mode, "Acid Spray" mode, etc.

Woah man, Fred's post brought a lot of things to light. Wow! I'm very surprised and delighted to see this thread, honestly. Words can't express my happiness. Also forgive me for the load of questions I'm about to ask.


So in short, the dynamic lighting ruined the game. That means we would've gotten the version everyone wanted if that switch hadn't been made? Why and how did it force the massive scrappings and redos? Is that also the reason why Vegas is in daytime in final version?

Is the singleplayer a continuous flow with chapters like Half-Life and final DNF or a level-by-level basis separated into episodes like Duke 3D? What about multiplayer?

Also isn't there a Laser Sniper Rifle in the final game too? What about the Mini Nuke? Why can't we know more about DNF in development, or even get the old builds? Hell I think you could earn a lot of money publishing a book detailing DNF's development.

But most importantly, do you know anything about the plot, and what are the phases/changes it went through? Also why did it come to recycling Duke 3D's enemies for final?

[MYHOUSE.MAP]

Can you read? Gearbox owns all rights to DNF. Releasing any materials from DNF without their explicit permission would be suicide, as would attempting to profit off of their owned material by releasing a book about DNF's development.

However, I'm sure things like "the law" wouldn't stop a "BETA IZ BETTA" moron like you from begging for EVERYTHING in DNF's development, would it? That's all you do because you're just Bryan with a shiny coat of paint and GameFAQs-caliber posting instead of slightly coherent gibberish.

[PikaCommando]

MYHOUSE.MAP, on 11 December 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

Can you read? Gearbox owns all rights to DNF. Releasing any materials from DNF without their explicit permission would be suicide, as would attempting to profit off of their owned material by releasing a book about DNF's development.

However, I'm sure things like "the law" wouldn't stop a "BETA IZ BETTA" moron like you from begging for EVERYTHING in DNF's development, would it? That's all you do because you're just Bryan with a shiny coat of paint and GameFAQs-caliber posting instead of slightly coherent gibberish.

Dude, have a Snickers. You seem rather edgy when you're hungry.



Better?


Also note how patiently I am waiting for a reply from Fred, without posting more than once despite that being a huge wall of text. I'm sure all these things will turn out alright after some nice discussions between Fred and Gearbox.

[Hendricks266]

PikaCommando, on 11 December 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

I'm sure all these things will turn out alright after some nice discussions between Fred and Gearbox.

http://dictionary.re.../browse/lawsuit

[MYHOUSE.MAP]

I'm sure the company that is just as restrictive with the Duke IP as 3DR was and bogged 3DR/Interceptor down in lawsuits for trying to make Mass Destruction will suddenly be very open to releasing prototype DNF assets that are in the posession of someone that does not legally own DNF and it's assets!

[PikaCommando]

Hendricks266, on 12 December 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

http://dictionary.re.../browse/lawsuit

>not having nice discussions first

MYHOUSE.MAP, on 12 December 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

I'm sure the company that is just as restrictive with the Duke IP as 3DR was and bogged 3DR/Interceptor down in lawsuits for trying to make Mass Destruction will suddenly be very open to releasing prototype DNF assets that are in the posession of someone that does not legally own DNF and it's assets!

Fred doesn't need to release the assets, he just needs to tell us what they are, which he already somewhat did.

[MYHOUSE.MAP]

PikaCommando, on 12 December 2014 - 01:09 AM, said:

Fred doesn't need to release the assets, he just needs to tell us what they are, which he already somewhat did.

Yeah lemme go summarize 14 YEARS WORTH of content for some obnoxious Malysian dude that thinks beta is better. Not like I have anything better to do and I'm sure Gearbox won't learn about someone describing in extreme detail assets they are legally not able to share!

[PikaCommando]

MYHOUSE.MAP, on 12 December 2014 - 01:16 AM, said:

Yeah lemme go summarize 14 YEARS WORTH of content for some obnoxious Malysian dude that thinks beta is better. Not like I have anything better to do and I'm sure Gearbox won't learn about someone describing in extreme detail assets they are legally not able to share!

Cool, thanks.

[Frederik Schreiber]

PikaCommando, on 11 December 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

Woah man, Fred's post brought a lot of things to light. Wow! I'm very surprised and delighted to see this thread, honestly. Words can't express my happiness. Also forgive me for the load of questions I'm about to ask.

So in short, the dynamic lighting ruined the game. That means we would've gotten the version everyone wanted if that switch hadn't been made? Why and how did it force the massive scrappings and redos? Is that also the reason why Vegas is in daytime in final version?

I wouldn't say Dynamic Lighting Ruined the game. The required changes to everything surrounding it possibly did.
The issue is that in order to have a good looking game using Dynamig Lighting and Shadows, you need assets with Specular and Normal maps for it to compete (Especially back in 2003).
This required all assets to be remade from scratch, which was a huge undertaking.

PikaCommando, on 11 December 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

Is the singleplayer a continuous flow with chapters like Half-Life and final DNF or a level-by-level basis separated into episodes like Duke 3D? What about multiplayer?

The Singleplayer was continous like Half-Life. There was no obvious episodes, but the game was split into Zones, using "!Z1L1_1" as a format.
Each of the 6 Zones was basically episodes. Vegas, Highway, EDF Base, Desert/Ghost Towm, Hoover Dam, Area 51.

The game had you manually drive the bike through vegas (Free Roaming), all the way to the highway, and through the desert. Extremely cool.
Multiplayer was pretty much done, and very fun indeed! With 9 dedicated Multiplayer Levels, all finalized.

PikaCommando, on 11 December 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

Also isn't there a Laser Sniper Rifle in the final game too? What about the Mini Nuke? Why can't we know more about DNF in development, or even get the old builds? Hell I think you could earn a lot of money publishing a book detailing DNF's development.

The laser rifle in the final game is basically a Railgun. The rifle in the 2001-2002 version was actually a sniper rifle, with a few different features.

Don't forget that Gearbox owns Duke Nukem Forever.

PikaCommando, on 11 December 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

But most importantly, do you know anything about the plot, and what are the phases/changes it went through? Also why did it come to recycling Duke 3D's enemies for final?

The plot was roughly the same. The setting was way more "Serious". Almost to a survival horror / Half Life level, which really suited the game.
I don't know why the majority of the enemies were changed back to the original. My guess would be that it had been so long since Duke 3D, that re-using the classic enemies was a "Safer Bet"

[PikaCommando]

Frederik Schreiber, on 12 December 2014 - 01:53 AM, said:

I wouldn't say Dynamic Lighting Ruined the game. The required changes to everything surrounding it possibly did.
The issue is that in order to have a good looking game using Dynamig Lighting and Shadows, you need assets with Specular and Normal maps for it to compete (Especially back in 2003).
This required all assets to be remade from scratch, which was a huge undertaking.



The Singleplayer was continous like Half-Life. There was no obvious episodes, but the game was split into Zones, using "!Z1L1_1" as a format.
Each of the 6 Zones was basically episodes. Vegas, Highway, EDF Base, Desert/Ghost Towm, Hoover Dam, Area 51.

The game had you manually drive the bike through vegas (Free Roaming), all the way to the highway, and through the desert. Extremely cool.
Multiplayer was pretty much done, and very fun indeed! With 9 dedicated Multiplayer Levels, all finalized.



The laser rifle in the final game is basically a Railgun. The rifle in the 2001-2002 version was actually a sniper rifle, with a few different features.

Don't forget that Gearbox owns Duke Nukem Forever.



The plot was roughly the same. The setting was way more "Serious". Almost to a survival horror / Half Life level, which really suited the game.
I don't know why the majority of the enemies were changed back to the original. My guess would be that it had been so long since Duke 3D, that re-using the classic enemies was a "Safer Bet"

Thanks man, I knew I could count on you. The game sounds like it was pretty much finished by that point. I'd push for more information, but I guess you've had enough.

You're the hero Duke Nukem deserves, and also the one it needs right now. I ran out of words to describe my thanks so you can have this instead.

[TheZombieKiller]

I asked these on Facebook, however I'll post it here so that the answers are more public

I was wondering if the source codes to the following Duke Nukem Manhattan Project files will be released on the 3DR site along with the alpha and beta stuff, or at another time, if they are to be released at all:

duke/sys/duke_base.dll (most important)
sys/gl.dll (OpenGL renderer)
sys/dx8.dll (Direct3D renderer)
sys/skmod.dll (DNMP's additions to the Granny3D format?)

Any other source code would be great too, and would make the game much more moddable, but of course due to the use of the Granny3D library, a full source release seems impossible at this time.

Oh and by the way, do you know anything about a "whore" enemy that was planned for DNMP? I was going through the files and there were various references to a "whore" enemy, including references to models and textures that were not present in the game files

[Hendricks266]

PikaCommando, on 12 December 2014 - 01:09 AM, said:

>not having nice discussions first

OMG a Duke Costanza. And you even colored the greentext.



Still had to downvote you, whether you're trolling me or oblivious to the background and current state of the 3DR-GBX relationship.

[Shaq Fu]

Oh my god Frederik you are a GOD for telling us all that cool DNF info. It sounds like the greatest game that never was

[Fox]

MYHOUSE.MAP, on 12 December 2014 - 01:16 AM, said:

Yeah lemme go summarize 14 YEARS WORTH of content for some obnoxious Malysian dude that thinks beta is better. Not like I have anything better to do

I don't understand what exactly you are mad at.

MYHOUSE.MAP, on 12 December 2014 - 01:16 AM, said:

I'm sure Gearbox won't learn about someone describing in extreme detail assets they are legally not able to share!

He is not sharing the assets.

[PikaCommando]

Fox, on 12 December 2014 - 03:07 AM, said:

I don't understand what exactly you are mad at.


He is not sharing the assets.

Maybe he can't read?

[TheZombieKiller]

Oh by the way, Fresch, in addition to my questions in my post above, what kind of machine are you running these DNF builds on?