[Jokke_r]

Lol, i remember years back when i went completely out on a limb and just pm'd George about the use of the title screen in the HRP and he said he didn't mind. I'm sure 3Dr really doesn't care all too much about a lot of these things it's just people assume they would not allow it and have never actually asked.

[PimpUigi]

Yea, did I miss something?
We need to replace logo's and title screens now?????

I've been out of the loop for a while.

[SwissCm]

I could probably understand being strict about this kind of stuff if the project was still based on the 3DR forums but now that it isn't we should just find high quality versions of the original 3D Realms logo and use them. I don't think 3DR will care at all, it's not like the HRP doesn't already violate a whole load of IP laws already.

[Danukem]

SwissCm, on Mar 28 2010, 10:58 PM, said:

I could probably understand being strict about this kind of stuff if the project was still based on the 3DR forums but now that it isn't we should just find high quality versions of the original 3D Realms logo and use them. I don't think 3DR will care at all, it's not like the HRP doesn't already violate a whole load of IP laws already.

Good post until the comma.

[SwissCm]

DeeperThought, on Mar 29 2010, 04:10 PM, said:

Good post until the comma.

Well it does, I'm not saying that it shouldn't. The HRP contains rather blatant copies of 3D Realms enemies for one but it's hard to get around that.

[Danukem]

SwissCm, on Mar 28 2010, 11:18 PM, said:

Well it does, I'm not saying that it shouldn't. The HRP contains rather blatant copies of 3D Realms enemies for one but it's hard to get around that.

The HRP is distributed under a license that contains the following clause:

Quote

3. Any likenesses, characters, sounds, phrases or references specific to
Duke Nukem, 3D Realms Entertainment, or Apogee Software Ltd. appear in this
Work courtesy of 3D Realms Entertainment and are the exclusive property of
3D Realms Entertainment, and are provided only to be used with a legally
acquired copy of Duke Nukem 3D. You may not alter, transform, build upon or
adapt any portion of this Work specifically related to or derived from the
Duke Nukem intellectual property, including likenesses, characters, sounds,
phrases or references for any purpose other than use with a legally acquired
copy of Duke Nukem 3D.

"courtesy of" implies that the IP is being included with the permission of the relevant parties, and the conditions of the license are designed to protect the IP.

[SwissCm]

DeeperThought, on Mar 29 2010, 04:53 PM, said:

The HRP is distributed under a license that contains the following clause:

"courtesy of" implies that the IP is being included with the permission of the relevant parties, and the conditions of the license are designed to protect the IP.

Did the authors get explicit permission from 3D Realms to use their property?

[Master Fibbles]

The whole project got permission from 3DR.

[SwissCm]

 Mr.Flibble, on Mar 29 2010, 10:11 PM, said:

The whole project got permission from 3DR.

Was it just some forum post stating "Oh yeah we don't really care go ahead" because legally that doesn't mean shit. Hell, even eduke32 is technically illegal to distribute. Not that any of this really matters, I was just making a point. As long as the HRP requires the use of Duke3D datafiles we can do and use pretty much any Duke-related IP we want and 3DR won't care.

[Master Fibbles]

What are you on about? eDuke32 is legal since the source code was released under the GPL. I'm not sure exactly the "permission" situation with the HRP except that some people had to put together a license for it and certain things had to fit the original license of Duke Nukem 3D. There is a license that came with the game and that license is what allows modifications etc.

[SwissCm]

Build was released under buildlic, which is incompatible with the GPL that the Duke3D game code was released due to a non-commercial clause.

[Master Fibbles]

That is what I mean (didn't bother to look it up)...either way, the license of the engine and the game itself allows for modifications. The HRP is nothing more than an extensive MOD. I'm pretty sure if this wasn't legal there wouldn't have been an extensive community at 3DR before they closed down the development house and the development forum stuff moved over here.

[SwissCm]

Geez.

Look, my original point was that although eduke32, the HRP, mods that use 3DR artwork etc technically violate copyright, no-one actually cares.

[Danukem]

Believe it or not, some people have taken great pains to ensure that the HRP and EDuke32 do not violate copyright, technically or otherwise. So when you glibly pronounce that they do anyway, you are going to get an argument. Discussions about avoiding copyright infringement were a big deal over at the 3DR forum for years. People cared because 3DR cared. Now 3DR is an empty shell, and we don't use their forums, so things look different. Here's a thread in which the current HRP license was formulated. A lot of thought went into it:


http://forums.3drealms.com/vb/showthread.p...ght=HRP+license

Mr. Flibble's statement that the HRP is "nothing more than an extensive MOD" is not quite right. At some point early in its life, the HRP received the official blessing of 3DR. I'm not privy to the exact details, but my understanding is that a deal was agreed upon whereby the community was given permission to make an HRP using Duke Nukem IP as long as the new models and textures were not based directly on the originals (e.g. no upsizing the original textures and simply adding details). The only other mod I know of that received permission to use Duke Nukem IP was the Borg Nukem TC (which didn't require owning Duke 3D to run).

[SwissCm]

 DeeperThought, on Mar 30 2010, 02:25 PM, said:

Believe it or not, some people have taken great pains to ensure that the HRP and EDuke32 do not violate copyright, technically or otherwise. So when you glibly pronounce that they do anyway, you are going to get an argument. Discussions about avoiding copyright infringement were a big deal over at the 3DR forum for years. People cared because 3DR cared. Now 3DR is an empty shell, and we don't use their forums, so things look different. Here's a thread in which the current HRP license was formulated. A lot of thought went into it:


http://forums.3drealms.com/vb/showthread.p...ght=HRP+license

Mr. Flibble's statement that the HRP is "nothing more than an extensive MOD" is not quite right. At some point early in its life, the HRP received the official blessing of 3DR. I'm not privy to the exact details, but my understanding is that a deal was agreed upon whereby the community was given permission to make an HRP using Duke Nukem IP as long as the new models and textures were not based directly on the originals (e.g. no upsizing the original textures and simply adding details). The only other mod I know of that received permission to use Duke Nukem IP was the Borg Nukem TC (which didn't require owning Duke 3D to run).

Guess who first established the "no upsizing of original textures" rule? Hell, I started the first HRP thread.

The license created for the HRP is a goodwill gesture, not an airtight legal defence. Although it may have received a personal blessing from Joe/George, that doesn't mean anything from a legal standpoint.

Oh, and eduke32 along with every other duke3d port violates copyright, Terminx and I have discussed it many times. I even contacted Ken recently asking if he would change the build license to be GPL, unfortunately he's dead set against any possible commercial explotation of the engine.

[Tea Monster]

It was 3DR who released The Duke Nukem 3D game engine Source and gave the blessing to the HRP.

You are talking about Ken Silverman, who is the author of the original Build engine.

Although the DN3D engine is technically Build, it is legally treated as DN3D and it is 3DR that has the authority to publish it. After Ken brought them his original Build engine, I think it got heavily changed by 3DR anyway. So the code for DN3D that got released isn't what Ken originally brought to the company.

Either way, it is a very silly thing for people on this forum to suppose who owns what, without any access to the contracts people signed back in the day.

[SwissCm]

 Tea Monster, on Mar 30 2010, 06:22 PM, said:

It was 3DR who released The Duke Nukem 3D game engine Source and gave the blessing to the HRP.

3D Realms released the Duke3D game code as well as the build source in a separate directory. Build is owned by Ken. From what I understand he didn't even give the source files to 3D Realms (or monolith or anyone else for that matter), only binary blobs. As to them giving their "blessing" to the HRP, as I said a bajillion times before, that legally means nothing. In fact as far as I could tell from that forum conversation linked to before they didn't bless the HRP, they simply ignored it.

 Tea Monster, on Mar 30 2010, 06:22 PM, said:

Although the DN3D engine is technically Build, it is legally treated as DN3D and it is 3DR that has the authority to publish it.

No, the Duke3D game source code is treated as the Duke3D game source code and the Build source code is treated as the Build source code. They are two separate things and combining them causes a license conflict

 Tea Monster, on Mar 30 2010, 06:22 PM, said:

After Ken brought them his original Build engine, I think it got heavily changed by 3DR anyway. So the code for DN3D that got released isn't what Ken originally brought to the company.

3D Realms didn't change build at all. The version of the build source code Ken released is of a later revision however.

 Tea Monster, on Mar 30 2010, 06:22 PM, said:

Either way, it is a very silly thing for people on this forum to suppose who owns what, without any access to the contracts people signed back in the day.

I talk to people who work/ed with the source code and 3D Realms and I know enough about copyright law that the HRP is quite obviously infringing. Can we please stop? Everyone just brings up the same tired old crap and I end up refuting it. It's getting old.

[Gambini]

Ken Silverman´s Build is integrated into duke3d code. It´s quite obvious that all parts agreed in releasing it, so there is no broken law or copyright condition. Not sure about the HRP.

[SwissCm]

 Gambini, on Mar 30 2010, 07:41 PM, said:

Ken Silverman´s Build is integrated into duke3d code.

no

it

isn't

Duke 3D relies on Build code. Build code doesn't rely on Duke3D code. I think Ken just supplied 3DR compiled OBJ files, that was the case with Monolith anyway.

 Gambini, on Mar 30 2010, 07:41 PM, said:

It´s quite obvious that all parts agreed in releasing it, so there is no broken law or copyright condition.

Christ how many times do I have to say this? There is a license conflict. Terminx knows it, Plagman knows it, Ken knows it. It's been discussed on IRC and email several times. Can we drop this now?

[CruX]

...

[The Commander]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_QyYaPWasos

[TURBOKID]

 SwissCm, on Mar 30 2010, 03:54 AM, said:

I think Ken just supplied 3DR compiled OBJ files

Do you even know what OBJ files are? Just so you know i am fluent in OBJ and OBJ is a 3d file format like MD3.
What the fuck are you smoking?

[Omni]

Sure I guess you could know it all and assume .obj files are only used for 3d programs, but maybe they are used as something else also.. just maybe.. http://en.wikipedia....iki/Object_file

[Jinroh]

 DISRUPTOR, on Apr 1 2010, 02:47 PM, said:

Do you even know what OBJ files are? Just so you know i am fluent in OBJ and OBJ is a 3d file format like MD3.
What the fuck are you smoking?

Wikipedia said:

An object file format is a computer file format used for the storage of object code and related data typically produced by a compiler or assembler.

Wikipedia Object file

[Player Lin]

Normally, if you're not programmer or did some programming, you may never know the OBJ file isn't just a 3D model format.

But... /facepalm


The OBJ file is needed if someone compile program, when he need debug or get some crash and try to find what's wrong, he will needed this file.

NOT all compiler and machines can produce the same of OBJ file, even the source code are the same.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

[PimpUigi]

...so we can keep having the awesome title screen we had, and not replace it with a knock off right?

[SwissCm]

 DISRUPTOR, on Apr 1 2010, 04:47 PM, said:

Do you even know what OBJ files are? Just so you know i am fluent in OBJ and OBJ is a 3d file format like MD3.
What the fuck are you smoking?

heh

 PimpUigi said:

...so we can keep having the awesome title screen we had, and not replace it with a knock off right?

It would be silly to do so. Be cool if someone could find/make a nice high resolution 3DR logo too.

[Hendricks266]

I never said anything about tiles #2492 (the intro 3D Realms fullscreen pic) or #2493 (the title screen). Their current status is perfectly fine. Neither uses the 3D Realms logo in the HRP.

What I'm referring to are the couple of in-game, level textures that use the 3D Realms logo within them as a joke. They say things like "3D Realms Studios", "3D Realms Demolition", and "3D Realms Construction". Instead of using the 3D Realms logo within the HRP remakes, they should use the render I posted, originally created by Parkar.

In no way was I making mention to the legality of the use of the title screen, the Duke Nukem IP, or the existence of the HRP. These topics were settled years ago. The "collapse" of 3D Realms makes no difference whatsoever.

tl;dr
This image, or other variations thereof, must not appear in the HRP:

[SwissCm]

oh noes you posted the 3d realms logo without proper licensing you have doomed this website to years of litigation!

[Jinroh]

Oh no! Not years of Litigation!

Hendricks was referring to this picture for those in the not know:
http://hendricks266....uff/hrpteam.png and that makes perfect sense Hendricks I'm all for it. ^^

Could always agree on a different name if that wouldn't fly though. Like "The Duke Construction"