[Fox]

MetHy, on 29 September 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

But being able to use both feet is like the only reason to still use an 1.3 grp...

What about coding it so that it's only possible if EDuke32 is using a 1.3 grp ?

Though personally I believe that an extra settings menu for this kind of behaviour would be very nice. The player could turn on/off at will things like being able to use both feet, custom palette enemies being stronger, etc etc

Eduke32 is v1.5 but it can also load v1.3d GRP. Besides, as far I know the source code for v1.3d was never released, so it would be based purely on guesswork.

And in v1.1, Duke Nukem would lower his weapon, kick, and raise his weapon back (that's why it show the "Mighty Boot Engaged" message). That style is as valid as v1.3d.

[Hendricks266]

Fox, on 30 September 2014 - 05:13 AM, said:

Besides, as far I know the source code for v1.3d was never released, so it would be based purely on guesswork.

We've found it among the beta assets. Haven't done anything with it, or looked at it really.

We also found some interesting code suggestive of ROR...

[MetHy]

I just reinstalled v1.3 in DOSBox, and I really didn't remember that you can't kick slimers trying to eat you in v1.3. I actually kind of like that, it makes them more dangerous and annoying enemies rather than how useless they are in 1.4.

Anyway, my point is I would love it if you used that 1.3 code you have and made a sub-menu in the settings of EDuke32 where the player could turn on/off 1.3 behaviour at will (double kick, being able to shoot or not slimers eating your face, etc).
You could even use that menu for other behaviour like making enemies with custom palette stronger....

Speaking of that, I recall people saying that red Liztroops had more HP in 1.3. I just tried it and they die just as fast as in 1.4....

[Hendricks266]

MetHy, on 30 September 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

Anyway, my point is I would love it if you used that 1.3 code you have and made a sub-menu in the settings of EDuke32 where the player could turn on/off 1.3 behaviour at will (double kick, being able to shoot or not slimers eating your face, etc).
You could even use that menu for other behaviour like making enemies with custom palette stronger....

Novelty crap like that would at best be a cvar. Someone wants to be a power user? They need to learn how to use the damn console. The menus are getting cleaned out and simplified; adding a ZDoom-esque trash heap of "compatibility" options just looks messy and is unnecessary for someone looking to just play the game.

MetHy, on 30 September 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

Speaking of that, I recall people saying that red Liztroops had more HP in 1.3. I just tried it and they die just as fast as in 1.4....

You're thinking of Pig Cops with alt-pals.

[MetHy]

Hendricks266, on 30 September 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Novelty crap like that would at best be a cvar. Someone wants to be a power user? They need to learn how to use the damn console. The menus are getting cleaned out and simplified; adding a ZDoom-esque trash heap of "compatibility" options just looks messy and is unnecessary for someone looking to just play the game.

I don't understand, 1.3 is just as valid as an official DN3D release as 1.4/1.5. If anything, I don't have the sales numbers to prove it, but I'm sure more people played 1.3 than they did 1.4/1.5.

The "2 feet" thing can be considered a fix, but the slimer thing is very arguable whether it improves the game or not; but in any case "which is better" shouldn't be the question.

With the menu, people who'd see it and don't understand what it does would simply leave it be. That's what people do with Zdoom. 1.4/1.5 behaviour could (should) be the default.

[TerminX]

You know what's really ironic about the menu options in ZDoom? They likely exist to help people find settings without looking up the cvars, but there are so many options that it's faster to just look up the cvar than it is to try and find anything in that mess. There are so many menu options that they could put a Cyberdemon at the end of it and have the menu itself be a "labyrinth of the minotaur" subgame. This does not fit current EDuke32 design principles at all.

By the way, the slimer not being affected by quick kick in 1.3D appears to be another bug caused by the last minute changes to quick kick. The 1.0/1.1 style kick would have killed a slimer. We are not purposely adding bugs to reflect the behavior of one version of duke3d.exe when there were 4 more official versions (1.0, 1.1, 1.4, 1.5) that have no such bugs.

[High Treason]

I'm almost certain that with the power of CON in it's current state, one could mod almost any desired behavior into the game if they really wanted to anyway. Probably a little tedious but I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be possible.

I've never used ZDoom, but thinking of all the fixes done to EDuke over the years and imagining a list of them in a menu gives me a headache... I can only imagine this ZDoom menu looks much the same as what I see in my head right now.

[TerminX]

Here's a good example:

[Hendricks266]

MetHy, on 30 September 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

The "2 feet" thing can be considered a fix,

It indisputably is. The requests to bring back the buggy behavior are in the spirit of holding Tilde and LCtrl with your left hand and pumping your wang with your right. That's not the spirit that gets features added.

[MetHy]

So you get to decide which part of the original game has to be kept or not ?

I don't see what's wrong with having the option of playing 1.3 the way it does play. I don't even care whether those things were glitches or not, all I know is that it's how it is in the original 1.3 game and that it's not how it is in EDuke32 using that same GRP. Both the double feet and the slimer killing have a huge impact on gameplay and were part of the game for the hundreds of thousands of people who played it before sourceports were a thing.

Also the menu comparison is exaggerated, I wasn't asking to put "every feature EDuke32 added", just two features that were in the orignial game.

Edit : BTW I'd be totally fine if that sub-menu giving the option to turn on/off those 2 things only appeared when using an 1.3 GRP (though in this case, they should be on by default...).
While you're at it, you can put the option to activate tougher custom palette Pigcops as well with 1.3, so that's 3 things though this matters a lot less since it only concerns some 1.3-only usermaps.

I say having accurate gameplay is an improvement, not a step back.

[brownfarted]

Want Feet ?

Introducting :
Shitkicker

[Paul B]

brownfarted, on 30 September 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

Want Feet ?

Introducting :
Shitkicker

Speaking of shit kicking! Methy what are you doing in Russia?

[Jblade]

I think some cvars for people really picky about those things wouldn't hurt, but ultimately those guys ARE the people coding for Eduke32 so if they don't like it, it won't get added in (The nature of the beast is that anybody can take up coding and make a new port using the original or the Eduke32 teams' stuff due to the licensing, but nobody else wants to)

Speaking of Cvars and old glitches, I remember you guys fixed an issue where using the slot 0 foot was supposed to slow you down whilst firing but didn't. If I remember right it was a bug in V1.5 where you moved normally and other versions had you move slowly. Any idea what I'm talking about? because if there are Cvars, being able to disable that would be nice.

[Fox]

There is some visual glitch beetween the time the loading screen ends and the game starts, which the menu and camera position flicks. Would it be possible to extend the loading screen by 1 tic to cover this?

[MetHy]

When watching demos there is a time bar at the top (which lets you fast forward/backward too), it's very useful, however it's very obtrusive especially if one wants to record a video. Any way to hide the bar? If not could that be added?

Jblade, on 01 October 2014 - 12:10 AM, said:

I think some cvars for people really picky about those things wouldn't hurt, but ultimately those guys ARE the people coding for Eduke32 so if they don't like it, it won't get added in (The nature of the beast is that anybody can take up coding and make a new port using the original or the Eduke32 teams' stuff due to the licensing, but nobody else wants to)

Yes because anyone can program a sourceport.
When making a sourceport so widespread you have the responsability of a part of the legacy of the game, and that includes gameplay accuracy of the original game, there should be no place for opinion on what part of the gameplay makes it in or not. People who want to relive 1.3 will be wronged by EDuke32.

[Fox]

It's not a matter of accuracy, but of version. In v1.1 you would briefly switch to the Mighty Boot weapon, in v1.3d you could use the Mighty Boot along with other weapons, and v1.5 fixed some bugs of v1.3d.

[MetHy]

Like I said I don't care if they are glitches. Both things (slimer & feet) have a huge impact on gameplay, and if that's how gameplay is in 1.3, that's how it is.

[Jblade]

Quote

Yes because anyone can program a sourceport.

Come on dude, you know that's not what I'm saying - It's implied when I said 'by the nature of the beast' Any potential coder could come and create a new sourceport using the existing code, it's just TerminX and company are the only guys who like Duke enough to do that. There are others but Megaton's existence has taken a large chunk of their reason to exist (ie functioning multiplayer)

Quote

When making a sourceport so widespread you have the responsability of a part of the legacy of the game, and that includes gameplay accuracy of the original game, there should be no place for opinion on what part of the gameplay makes it in or not. People who want to relive 1.3 will be wronged by EDuke32.

I really really think you're going a bit too overboard here...2 single glitches do not in any way represent a wrongdoing on TX and co's part towards V1.3D players. I never used the dual kick exploit and I never cared about kicking slimers off my face (because they're a worthless enemy in any case) I started playing Duke on the PC in V1.3D in DOS, and I played it for a long time before I got my hands on the atomic edition. I think there's attention to detail and then there's slavish recreation of old bugs/glitches.

Finally, and I know you don't mean it personally, but when you get passionate about something and argue the way you are now you're pretty much guaranteeing that they'll never add what you're asking for. Most of the Eduke guys are family men with young children and jobs, I feel pretty safe saying when they see someone coming across as aggressive (I'm not saying you're intending to be unpleasant or aggressive, I think you're just passionate about keeping the original gameplay) about an old glitch not carried over they are not gonna feel compelled to spend time adding it in for you.

EDIT: also one last thing to keep in mind...what you're asking for is doable in CON code. Maybe if you ask one of the communities' CON coders for a mutator or something they might oblige you (I don't have the time I'm afraid though) That's much more likely to occur than having those things hardcoded into the exe.

[Mark]

MetHy, on 03 October 2014 - 02:59 AM, said:

When making a sourceport so widespread you have the responsability of a part of the legacy of the game, and that includes gameplay accuracy of the original game, there should be no place for opinion on what part of the gameplay makes it in or not. People who want to relive 1.3 will be wronged by EDuke32.

Speaking of opinions, start a poll to try and find out how many or few people even give a crap about this bug being put back in.

[MusicallyInspired]

There's always DOSBox.

[MetHy]

Jblade, on 03 October 2014 - 04:26 AM, said:

Come on dude, you know that's not what I'm saying - It's implied when I said 'by the nature of the beast' Any potential coder could come and create a new sourceport using the existing code, it's just TerminX and company are the only guys who like Duke enough to do that. There are others but Megaton's existence has taken a large chunk of their reason to exist (ie functioning multiplayer)

I really really think you're going a bit too overboard here...2 single glitches do not in any way represent a wrongdoing on TX and co's part towards V1.3D players. I never used the dual kick exploit and I never cared about kicking slimers off my face (because they're a worthless enemy in any case) I started playing Duke on the PC in V1.3D in DOS, and I played it for a long time before I got my hands on the atomic edition. I think there's attention to detail and then there's slavish recreation of old bugs/glitches.

Finally, and I know you don't mean it personally, but when you get passionate about something and argue the way you are now you're pretty much guaranteeing that they'll never add what you're asking for. Most of the Eduke guys are family men with young children and jobs, I feel pretty safe saying when they see someone coming across as aggressive (I'm not saying you're intending to be unpleasant or aggressive, I think you're just passionate about keeping the original gameplay) about an old glitch not carried over they are not gonna feel compelled to spend time adding it in for you.

EDIT: also one last thing to keep in mind...what you're asking for is doable in CON code. Maybe if you ask one of the communities' CON coders for a mutator or something they might oblige you (I don't have the time I'm afraid though) That's much more likely to occur than having those things hardcoded into the exe.

I don't know what any of this has to do with families and children. You're bringing this down to a personal level even though there was no need to because you are being offended that I am discussing the accuracy of EDuke32, which this thread is for.

As for the slimers, being unable to kick them and having to use a weapon in v1.3 is exactly what makes them non useless and more threatening enemies. Either it's going to take a couple of seconds to switch weapon and use the pistol against them, which means losing 10-20hp in the meantime, or using a strong weapon which in some cases might mean wasting ammo.
It can be a big deal on the long term and against many slimers. Alone it might seem not much, but coupled with other small things like being able to switch weapons faster in certain cases in EDuke32, the end result of all it becomes very different. This is why small things matter.

And for the con thing, I could probably do it myself, but that's not the point. It sounds ironical to have to use a custom con just so one can play the game like it should; and the difference between a custom con and the thing directly implemented in EDuke32 is that the majority of people wouldn't even know about the custom con.

MusicallyInspired, on 03 October 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

There's always DOSBox.

If that's your answer then EDuke32 might as well not exist. Very constructive.

[Mblackwell]

MetHy, on 03 October 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

one can play the game like it should;

Since it was patched out by 3DRealms and not the EDuke32 team, apparently the original designers disagree with that statement. A bug is a bug even if you like the results of it.

[MusicallyInspired]

Come on, suggesting Dosbox for an authentic alternative experience (which is incredibly painless to accomplish) is a far cry from saying EDuke32 shouldn't exist. EDuke32 is the best of the best obviously and I use it all the time, but if the devs don't want to implement what they perceive as a bug rather than a missing feature there isn't much else to do.

[Jblade]

Quote

I don't know what any of this has to do with families and children. You're bringing this down to a personal level even though there was no need to because you are being offended that I am discussing the accuracy of EDuke32, which this thread is for.

I'm not offended, what is with this forum and people jumping to bizarre conclusions? I'm not part of the dev team and I don't talk to them in anyway outside of forum posts here. I'm telling you that they do this shit in their free time, and TX and half of the team are married with kids (as far as I know) so why would they spend what precious free time they have adding in a feature recreating an old glitch for someone coming across as belligerent about it. It's probably the language gap but saying 1.3D players have been wronged by Eduke32 comes across as fairly extreme (and perhaps in turn my post came across as patronizing, which was not the intention and I'm sorry if it did) I say this as a 1.3D player myself (the very first IW was a 1.3D TC in an age where everybody else had long moved onto the atomic edition)

[LeoD]

make utils fails to build:

In file included from build/src/util/generateicon.c:4:0:
build/include/kplib.h: In function 'kzclose':
build/include/kplib.h:40:1: error: implicit declaration of function 'MAYBE_FCLOSE_AND_NULL' [-Werror=implicit-function-declaration]
 static inline void kzclose(void) { MAYBE_FCLOSE_AND_NULL(kzfs.fil); }
 ^
cc1.exe: some warnings being treated as errors
Failed building build/obj/generateicon.o from build/src/util/generateicon.c!
make: *** [build/obj/generateicon.o] Error 1

[TerminX]

No guarantees are made that things will ever compile while flagged DONT_BUILD. It's an easy fix, though.

[Stabs]

So weirdest thing happened today, i was playing e1l1 and was enetering the cinema through the whole in the wall at the ticket booth, and iam not sure what happened, i must of hit and angle just right near the crack in the wall and it teleported me into the secret room above in SoS

I know this bug does is exist it just the first time iver ever happened in e1l1 the 18 oyears Ive been playing the official game levels

so if someone perfects this SoS glitch they could do some funny speedruns

[MetHy]

Stabs, on 16 October 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

So weirdest thing happened today, i was playing e1l1 and was enetering the cinema through the whole in the wall at the ticket booth, and iam not sure what happened, i must of hit and angle just right near the crack in the wall and it teleported me into the secret room above in SoS

I know this bug does is exist it just the first time iver ever happened in e1l1 the 18 oyears Ive been playing the official game levels

so if someone perfects this SoS glitch they could do some funny speedruns

Lately I've been having the feeling that SoS teleporting glitches tend to happen easier than they should in EDuke32, though I can't prove it, but I often got teleported in ways I had never before.

[oasiz]

When speedrunning the game with llcooldave, we found out that megaton has way more clipping bugs than eduke does.
Some bugs are a lot easier to perform than they normally would be.

eduke is similar to dos duke from what I remember, same success rate with clipping.
The only main difference we found with eduke when compared to DOS was this My link

I recall TX mentioning that eduke handled player being inside a -1 sector differently, outside of play area that is. I could remember it wrong. I recall it actually being some kind of an oddity in the original code that was fixed.
This only seems to apply in to underwater clipping, elsewhere this doesn't really happen.
Anyway, you still clip inside on all versions, the difference is that which one ends up killing you as well.

Duke is very VERY buggy by nature, once you start actually running the game, you will suddenly notice how absolutely broken the game is. Megaton just made things even easier.
Btw, you can also reach the red room trough the arcade with careful timing on movement and jumping in to the spotlight that rotates, you can also make it back to the arcade easily.

[Stabs]

well i was on DukeVR, no idea which build its based off, maybe me leaning forward clipped it through the wall or something

It was just such a weird bug, i swear if had a dollar for everytime ive dicked around in e1l1....

i shall dub it "the lotto bug"