[brullov]

Few days ago I was playing my favourite map "Flood Zone" (E3L3) and got inspiration to create an oldschool map. So I managed to spend only about 3 evenings for it. Oldschool style and action are included. Enjoy!
New version 3.1! Updated!
CLICK TO DOWNLOAD

[MetHy]

Good map!

I liked the exploration, it was well done.
At first I missed the chaingun and the scubagear, which I only got half way through the map; but that's part of the freedom and exploration aspect of the map so I enjoyed it.

Some nitpicking : the 'secret area' in the vents of one of the rooftop, the msg activates even if you stand on top of it and haven't been inside yet... but I did exactly the same mistake in the "Flood Zone" inspired map Mikko and I made for the MM episode (which shares a lot with this map) !

I wish more maps like this were made these days. IMO more mappers should take 3-4 days to make a classic-style map, it's a good learning experience as a mapper and it makes good maps rather quickly.

I'll definitly replay this one soon since judging from those screenshots I missed the jetpack and what's in the window of that building!

[FistMarine]

edit

[Jblade]

Just played it, it was a fun little romp and wears it's inspiration on it's sleeve which is cool. Only suggestion I'd make is that the detailing was a little sparse in places (obvioussly I mean for 3DR standards, not modern standards)

[brullov]

James, on 21 August 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

Just played it, it was a fun little romp and wears it's inspiration on it's sleeve which is cool. Only suggestion I'd make is that the detailing was a little sparse in places (obvioussly I mean for 3DR standards, not modern standards)

By the way, my original style of mapping is better with detailing. I tried to detail the less to be close for 3DR standards. But it's quite impossible to have the same styles cos I don't want to copypaste.

[duke64nukem]

YOOO seeing that flood zone was indeed one of my favorites this map really rocked you know i make maps really detailed and go all out as i can and this just has the original feeling i like man. Props to you good job keeping it original yet detailed i like what you done. But damn the keycards were hard to find man that's all i have against it. Anyway you should make more because this is close to original and i would like to see more

[ck3D]

really good map. awesome layout and great design although texture alignment looked a little faulty here and there. spent a while looking for a way to get to the red keypad until i realized that the crack at the top of that rock formation wasn't the only possible destination from there, and that i could actually jump from said rocks onto that rooftop nearby (a bit of a tricky jump). for a while i was worried that i might have been supposed to let one of those fat commanders i had just spawned (and killed) live, in order for it to shoot a rocket at me in front of said crack and blow it up (seeing as the player is not supposed to be carrying any explosive weapons at this point of the playthrough, unless i missed any). although a smart gameplay feature, that would have been a pretty bad gameplay flow - fortunately i ended up realizing that i could - you know - just try and make the jump.

loved the combat and all the little gameplay elements such as the shrinker ray shooter section - shooters are definitely under-used in duke maps. never ran short of ammo or weaponry, and only got low enough on health to make things interesting - health points were provided when needed, one scuba gear was enough (at least i only found one), found 2 secrets out of 4. only minor complaint is how the room with the 2 battlelords could have been made a little more interesting and detailed. i really liked that map and hope you make more !

[ck3D]

MetHy, on 20 August 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

I wish more maps like this were made these days. IMO more mappers should take 3-4 days to make a classic-style map, it's a good learning experience as a mapper and it makes good maps rather quickly.

while i agree with your logic, i have been there only to observe that the general consensus about the resulting map (Hibernal Solstice) was that it was uninspired, undetailed, not ambitious enough and 'my worst map'. i was definitely going for a classic-style kind of play, also i had only three days to spend on said map and overall really didn't think the outcome was all that bad (in fact the community was going through a dry spell in terms of release, so i reckoned it would be better than nothing), but people generally disliked it. sorry to chime in just to talk about my work again, but the point i am trying to make is, not everyone can make a good, classic map in 3 days. i have been mapping ever since the release of the original game, tried that and failed. this map was made in the same time span by a less experienced mapper and appears to be better in every aspect, but let's not make it a standard. while i would personally be very happy to see classic-looking map releases flowing, realistically it would also only mean that a lot of those levels would feel rushed if anything. i think a balance between both types of release is to be maintained.

[brullov]

ck3D, on 23 August 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

really good map. awesome layout and great design although texture alignment looked a little faulty here and there. spent a while looking for a way to get to the red keypad until i realized that the crack at the top of that rock formation wasn't the only possible destination from there, and that i could actually jump from said rocks onto that rooftop nearby (a bit of a tricky jump). for a while i was worried that i might have been supposed to let one of those fat commanders i had just spawned (and killed) live, in order for it to shoot a rocket at me in front of said crack and blow it up (seeing as the player is not supposed to be carrying any explosive weapons at this point of the playthrough, unless i missed any). although a smart gameplay feature, that would have been a pretty bad gameplay flow - fortunately i ended up realizing that i could - you know - just try and make the jump.

loved the combat and all the little gameplay elements such as the shrinker ray shooter section - shooters are definitely under-used in duke maps. never ran short of ammo or weaponry, and only got low enough on health to make things interesting - health points were provided when needed, one scuba gear was enough (at least i only found one), found 2 secrets out of 4. only minor complaint is how the room with the 2 battlelords could have been made a little more interesting and detailed. i really liked that map and hope you make more !

Thanks for the feedback! I am working on a new map now

Spoiler

You can find pipeboms underwater.

[Micky C]

MetHy, on 20 August 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

I wish more maps like this were made these days. IMO more mappers should take 3-4 days to make a classic-style map, it's a good learning experience as a mapper and it makes good maps rather quickly.

While it's nice to have simple. classic maps, especially if there's been a period without any releases, if most mappers switched over to making them (and within a few days) then IMO people will eventually get tired of them and start to crave something a little more ambitious. I'm thinking about market saturation.

IMO there should be a nice mix of classic and "modern" style maps. The purpose of the classic maps would be for 'standard' fun, nostalgia, and keeping release frequency up due to their short construction time. While other maps which aim for higher details, and perhaps something fresh in gameplay/architecture/whatever are for players who want to try something new and perhaps more realistic. Not to mention the spread of classic maps will make the "modern" maps feel even more detailed by comparison, which is a good thing.

I feel that with the recent trend towards more classic maps, as well as all the average-quality stuff coming out of Megaton, that the community has almost forgotten what a proper ambitious high-detailed map is. I'm not talking about this one which obviously went for the classic style (sorry for the off-topic btw), but there are quite a few maps lately which judging by the comments seem to be mind blowingly good yet looking at the photos they don't seem like anything that special. Yes I'm aware of the whole "you don't need a million details to have a good-looking map" and I map by that philosophy myself, but having said that I feel as though the overall standard has dropped, probably because half the maps these days are coming out of Megaton by people who have only been mapping a year or less. We need another It Lives.

Edit: Hmm my post seems a bit black and white. What I'm trying to say is there's nothing wrong with spending a year on a really nice map that looks really good and tries to push the boundaries in one way or another. I'll admit I'm a hypocrite since I'm not the one who'd want to do it
2nd Edit: Actually I am sort of doing that now that I think about it...

[Helixhorned]

I quickly fired up this map and liked the classic look of it, even if it was a bit too much inspired by E3L3 for my taste. I have one question though: why the use of lotag-1255, i.e. full reverb MUSICANDSFX? For me, that makes sounds in the affected area distorted to the point of being unrecognizeable. Am I the only one to experience this? I'm pretty paranoid of running such sounds through my system due to memories of sound cards failing and producing similar effects. (Not claiming that playing back distorted sounds was the cause of the failure, but still...)

[ck3D]

Micky C - if 'another It Lives' were to come out nowadays, i am pretty sure it would go close to unnoticed and people would forget about it a week later. sorry for plugging in my own work again but it is - for obvious reasons - what i can personally relate to the best as far as illustrating this type of situation goes : the last 'ambitious' map i released was bummed out.map (anarchy city x). while not the most ambitious level ever, it was definitely on the detailed / modern-looking side, and took me months to make (plus i could only work on it on and off which made the process even more chaotic on my end as the author). when i finally released it, barely anyone paid attention to it, then just a few days later it had already blended into oblivion amidst all the other levels that get released only to go through the exact same treatment regardless of the amount of effort that was put into its making. even though i tried to make it different gameplay-wise, so that it would stand out, to everyone else it ended up being just 'yet another modern-looking map you have fun roaming around in once before letting your hard drive phagocyte it for good or at least, unless someone mentions it on a message board six years later and you remember it from way back when' (or so i assume).

maps that make use of some of the fancy modern features (ie. TROR) take even longer - or at the very least, are even more complex - to make than how most of the 'detailed' maps that were made a few years ago, including It Lives. according to your logic that ambition in level-making is important, their respective authors would deserve just as much credit, if not more. however the truth is, those maps just get played once or twice and fade into oblivion as well just as much as the next one. in fact if anything, the less aesthetically ambitious, so-called 3DR-styled levels get more attention - probably because they are more light-hearted and fun to play, thus more memorable and with a higher replay value. performance for the sake of performance will always be inferior to sheer fun in a context of entertainment.

were i to remember certain releases from this past year and think of them as landmarks, maps like slum noir or this one, or projects such as duke hard would be the first ones to come to mind. not maps like bobsp 4 or entrapped - no disrespect to their respective authors intended because they obviously have talent and every map has its place. i just feel like some of the most ambitious levels are only good to have around just so that people know that they are there and available, if anything. some of them aren't even fully playable even on modern set-ups ! their sole existence itself are their main sense of purpose. whereas some other maps are not only there, but also fun to play. not everyone can pull off a good, classic map - but i would definitely prioritize entertainment over technical prowess. the question is trickier than it might seem - so maybe i should just shut up for once and go try finishing my own map in order to stay somewhat relevant - whatever that may mean - instead of arguing over the whole ordeal.

[ck3D]

Helixhorned, on 23 August 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

I quickly fired up this map and liked the classic look of it, even if it was a bit too much inspired by E3L3 for my taste. I have one question though: why the use of lotag-1255, i.e. full reverb MUSICANDSFX? For me, that makes sounds in the affected area distorted to the point of being unrecognizeable. Am I the only one to experience this? I'm pretty paranoid of running such sounds through my system due to memories of sound cards failing and producing similar effects. (Not claiming that playing back distorted sounds was the cause of the failure, but still...)

i am the same. not the first time i get it in user maps either as of late - not too sure what this trend is all about. off the top of my head there must have been three instances of user maps resorting to that effect over the past year or so. maybe it is due to the way i play duke and the original authors use different settings and do not experience it.

[brullov]

Helixhorned, on 23 August 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

I quickly fired up this map and liked the classic look of it, even if it was a bit too much inspired by E3L3 for my taste. I have one question though: why the use of lotag-1255, i.e. full reverb MUSICANDSFX? For me, that makes sounds in the affected area distorted to the point of being unrecognizeable. Am I the only one to experience this? I'm pretty paranoid of running such sounds through my system due to memories of sound cards failing and producing similar effects. (Not claiming that playing back distorted sounds was the cause of the failure, but still...)

It's one of my mistakes which I have not corrected. However, it's alright on my PC.

[LeoD]

Artem Nevinchany, on 19 August 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Oldschool style and action are included

I enjoyed it. Thanks.

Helixhorned, on 23 August 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

[...] even if it was a bit too much inspired by E3L3 [...]

If I were a mapper I'd even check if some parts were just copied

ck3D, on 23 August 2014 - 03:06 AM, said:

sorry for plugging in my own work again but it is - for obvious reasons - what i can personally relate to the best as far as illustrating this type of situation goes : the last 'ambitious' map i released was bummed out.map (anarchy city x). while not the most ambitious level ever, it was definitely on the detailed / modern-looking side, and took me months to make (plus i could only work on it on and off which made the process even more chaotic on my end as the author). when i finally released it, barely anyone paid attention to it, then just a few days later it had already blended into oblivion amidst all the other levels that get released only to go through the exact same treatment regardless of the amount of effort that was put into its making.
were i to remember certain releases from this past year and think of them as landmarks, maps like slum noir or this one, or projects such as duke hard would be the first ones to come to mind. not maps like bobsp 4 or entrapped - no disrespect to their respective authors intended because they obviously have talent and every map has its place.

Players and (experienced) mappers just don't feel the same about maps, it seems. And if you have a special baby, like ACX maybe, it's even more disappointing if the majority(?) of "the public" thinks otherwise. Among your works, ACX is by far not among my favourites, despite the obvious amount of work put into it. Plus, quite a number of great maps were released just around the same time.
In terms of landmarks I have quite a different opinion, too. Considering the size of our community (although it seems to have grown a bit recently thanks to Megaton), I think mapping for Duke3D should be for fun. Or satisfaction to reach a certain goal. The maximum possible amount of recognition is just limited here. If I cared about appreciation I'd have ceased contributing long ago, or at least radically changed my way of posting. We just love Duke3D, but not all of us in the same way, do we?

[MetHy]

I had a soundglitch in the map (both times I palyed it), when getting close to the waterfall I'd get a really loud glitch sound... And apart from that I didn't notice any reverb in the map!

Micky C, on 23 August 2014 - 02:32 AM, said:

Micky C

I never said there was anything wrong with more detailed map. Imo it's good to have both, and if everyone took a few days to make one classic style map, we would have both .
Also personally I don't think I'd ever get tired of playing classic style maps if they're done properly (rather than making a shitty map and calling it 'classic' because it's not very detailed)...

But I also believe that, quite often, more detailed maps come with the loss of a part of the essence of the original game. Whether it's the gameplay style, the feeling of exploration and of non lineariity, or the smart interconnected layout, etc But at the same time they also often bring something new to the table which is always interesting.
That's why I'd like to see both more often.

[Micky C]

Like ck3d said, not everyone's capable of making a classic map, at least not quickly. I include myself in this group of people, mainly because classic maps are a touch too abstract for me to have good inspiration for.

Btw ck3d, Anarchy City X is a horrible example to go with, since (along with Wide Awake), they have extremely non-traditional gameplay and hence can't be directly compared to other maps. To be perfectly honest I didn't enjoy or finish either of them
Had nothing to do with the visuals, just that the gameplay isn't my cup of tea. Plus IMO Anarchy City X isn't on the same level as other pieces of your work such as Anorak City in terms of sheer detailing.
Plus back in the mid-late 2000's everyone was trying to push for the most detailed map. Now that things have taken a step back and classic style (along with the generally average Megaton maps) have taken the reigns again, a high detailed map would probably stand out a lot more than it would have a few years ago. Especially if it had fresh details as opposed to a high detail level but in a style that we've already seen before.

Perhaps I emphasized the wrong things; yes it's good to every now and then do something ambitious in terms of details (doesn't have to be super mega detailed, just decently detailed but something never done before, perhaps not unlike Slum Noir but with more details). However IMO this should go hand-in-hand with ambitious gameplay. Paul B's Brooklyn Bridge, a TROR map, had a really cool layout, as well as tonnes of ideas that either hadn't been done before, or are underused in maps. Plus the TROR layers allow for extra trimming possibilities. All these things together make it a memorable map.
I wouldn't say TROR maps take much more time than a non-TROR map with equivalent architecture, at least once you know what you're doing.

[Mark]

ck3D said: if 'another It Lives' were to come out nowadays, i am pretty sure it would go close to unnoticed and people would forget about it a week later.

Every now and then I think about how my very ambitious Graveyard project will suffer the " here today, gone tomorrow " scenario. But then I look back at the hundreds of hours on and off between other projects over the last two years and I realise how much fun its been for me. Plus I have learned a lot more mapping skills, especially the use of effects. I honed my skills in model creation and con coding. So even after my 15 minutes of fame ( I hope ) it will not have felt like wasted time.

[Forge]

Helixhorned, on 23 August 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

I have one question though: why the use of lotag-1255, i.e. full reverb MUSICANDSFX? For me, that makes sounds in the affected area distorted to the point of being unrecognizeable. Am I the only one to experience this? I'm pretty paranoid of running such sounds through my system due to memories of sound cards failing and producing similar effects. (Not claiming that playing back distorted sounds was the cause of the failure, but still...)

No. I mentioned it before about the haunted library map in the Duke Hard episode and someone said it was my sound card. Issue dropped.

I found out that if my in game master volume level is at 100% I get that problem no matter how much tweaking i did to my card. I went to one of those areas in the map and started bumping the master volume down incrementally until it stopped buzzing and sounded like it was supposed to.

[Sanek]

I'm agree with ck3d. Nobody cares attetion to maps nowadays, except for a bunch of old dudes and the map's author. Modern design is not in fashion anymore. Such map as The Thing by Loke can be considered as a mapping masterpice, but nobody cares, because the map don't have any gameplay. And I remember spending a lot of time building a bridge in Bride Between Two Islands, but nobody cares about it the next day after release. Maybe that's because I leaked and stopped work on LORCH3, because I know it's not that memorable...

Artem Nevinchany, good map btw!

[MetHy]

[brullov]

That moment when actually, the topic is about my map

[Radar]

Wow, this thread is an interesting read. It's nice to hear it from the mapper's side.

Truthfully, I haven't been interested in recent maps because everybody's trying to make a "classic-style" map. It's like we're in some "back to basics" phase of mapping right now. I can't stand it. Nothing's innovative anymore.

Anarchy City X and Wide Awake were awesome. They were exceptions to the "classic-style" fad, offering a new style of combat I've never seen before in Duke. I enjoyed these maps very much. Perhaps sometimes it just seems like no one is paying attention to your work? I've experienced that before. When you're an artist (and I certainly do consider you guys artists), it can be hard to feel appreciated when you don't see everybody just gobbling up the stuff you've worked for months or years on. Just because your release thread didn't get as many replies as you hoped for doesn't mean the map was ignored. You never know who downloaded your map and it touched their heart, they just never told you.

And I think comparing anything to It Lives is sort of moot. It Lives is still recognized today because it's brilliant. Maps made today don't get as much praise because they aren't as brilliant. That's just the way it is. Gambini set the standard higher than anything it was before, and I imagine the "classic-style" fad is a result of that. Nobody wants to try and top it. I think it will be like this for quite a bit until mappers start to meet the standard he set. Just like Pascal's maps were extraordinary back when they just came out, but nowadays any big and ambitious map is of the same quality (or even better), I bet in a couple years maps of the same quality of It Lives will be much more common.

[MetHy]

I don't even see it, I mean, I don't even believe there really is a "back to basics" or "classic style" trend.

Let's have a look at what has been released this year (in no order, must have SP, and I'm probably missing some):
- Duke2070
- Nitroglyceryn
- Beach CBP
- Duke Hard
- Penthouse Mayhem
- Destillateur
- Slum Noir
- Turok
- Wang Nukem
- MiamiFL
- Forever Doom
- Tower Of Babel
- Apprehension Arizona
- Dukecraft
- (Lorch 3)
- Flood Area

Hmm, ok, except from this map I don't see any map that intentionally went for classic style. I'd consider some of these maps, like Apprehension Arizona, Beach CBP, Duke2070, Nitrogylecryn, and most maps from Duke Hard, highly detailed too. Not as "highly" detailed as a It Lives, but highly detailed enough.

Sorry but I don't see it.

[brullov]

Updated the map.

[brullov]

Gonna have a piece of my opinion in your discussion. First, this map is less detailed cos I wanted to remake the original map (E3L3) as close as it possible without copying. Second, you should pay attention to the gameplay. It's so stupid wrong to compare this map with It Lives. There are different ideas, design and... gameplay. Flood Area considered to be a "fun map" like shoot-n-run. I think, this map also good in multiplayer.

[MetHy]

The discussion isn't meant to be negative towards your map. Your map has plenty of qualities.

[brullov]

MetHy, on 23 August 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

The discussion isn't meant to be negative towards your map. Your map has plenty of qualities.

Oh, I know. Just want to show people that as you say "back to basic" isn't bad at all. As for me, I like short maps with intense playing.

[Radar]

I said "I think comparing anything to It Lives is sort of moot", as in, I'm not trying to compare your map to It Lives either. Your map is great, Artem.

[brullov]

Yay Ponies, on 23 August 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

I said "I think comparing anything to It Lives is sort of moot", as in, I'm not trying to compare your map to It Lives either. Your map is great, Artem.

Now it's clear to me. Thanks