[♥Coraline♥]

This thread should seriously be split and cleaned up. Throw all these shit posts in another thread and keep this one tidy, only relevant to the material at hand. This can't look good for people on the outside who want the on-topic material.

[NUKEMDAVE]

MetHy, on 25 April 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

...in the 2nd issue I found (which I found while I wasn't even looking for issues) a teleporter can make you skip a part of the map in coop, a cool part for that matter, and the way it's done a player who doesn't know the map can easily find and use the teleporter before the door to the path that gets skipped is open.
I wouldn't call that insignificant especially considering something can be done to make things proper.

If you're talking about the part where the ceiling comes down to crush you, I don't see any other way that could have been done. The ceiling is supposed to come down and stay down. All I did was add teleports to skip that area. If anyone wants to experience the maps the proper way, they shouldn't be playing them for the first time in multiplayer anyway. Yes, I know that changing some of the doors wasn't a good thing. I wasn't happy about doing it either. I probably could have added a way to skip the slow elevator in Dukematch, too. Even if I had, that map just wasn't built with multiplayer in mind. The same goes for a lot of the other maps, but I made them playable. I wouldn't judge my work on just that map. I'm pretty sure that's the only map where I made changes like that. I worked on D.C. and NW, too.

Anyway, yeah, all of this should be moved to another thread.

[Forge]

i was just using this as an example of what not to do with the new material, but really. He admitted what he did, why he did it, and agreed that it could have possibly been done differently.
What more do you want?

NUKEMDAVE, on 25 April 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Anyway, yeah, all of this should be moved to another thread.

i recommend "pinned trash topic"
http://forums.duke4....ed-trash-topic/

[NUKEMDAVE]

Ok, so I guess I'll share some things that I did to the expansion pack maps for Megaton Edition. I can't post every single thing that I did, but I'll post some things.

I used this trick to deal with level-ending sectors in Dukematch:



It's an invisible, blocked switch set to pal 1. It blocks someone from walking in there and ending the game in Dukematch.

And here are a bunch of random things I did:

http://i.imgur.com/4DkW8tW.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/q4p7zva.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/IknpPZf.jpg

I did this to make less of the nearby building disappear when you're looking at it from behind this:
http://i.imgur.com/siGmTif.jpg

Same thing here:
http://i.imgur.com/Nn0rchu.png

Fixed these:
http://i.imgur.com/A74kYx3.png
http://i.imgur.com/MdoSKCB.png
http://i.imgur.com/DUIjf3l.png

http://i.imgur.com/zG5NDyn.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/x5mPIce.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/v2nNuYb.jpg

[Fox]

You should have added a fence in front of the ending and a Nukebutton nearby, just like Red Light District.

And frankly I disagree with aesthetical changes.

[NUKEMDAVE]

Fox, on 25 April 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

You should have added a fence in front of the ending and a Nukebutton nearby, just like Red Light District.

And frankly I disagree with aesthetical changes.

Yeah, I could have, but that would be changing the map more. What I did works fine, you just can't shoot through it. Anyone who's familiar with the maps will know that it's the end of the map. They'll have to find out on their own that they can't shoot through it if they're curious. Hopefully, they won't try to shoot the RPG through it and be standing too close.

Well, I like things to be perfect. If I see something that could be better, I want to improve it. I didn't get out-of-control and make any big changes, though. I kept it limited. Caribbean was the expansion pack out of all three where I saw the most problems or things that I thought could be improved.

[Forge]

[Fox]

NUKEMDAVE, on 25 April 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Yeah, I could have, but that would be changing the map more.

It's not a matter of "how much" you change it, as long as the changes are indiscernible in single-player. What I said would be consistent with the approach of Duke 3D levels, instead of an invisible forcefield.

And speaking of Duke 3D, some small fixes are necessary in multiplayer. There should be an accessible Nukebutton in Faces of Death and Stadium, plus fixing the teleporter in Critical Mass just like the XBLA version.

[Jimmy]

NUKEMDAVE, on 25 April 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Yeah, I could have, but that would be changing the map more. What I did works fine, you just can't shoot through it. Anyone who's familiar with the maps will know that it's the end of the map. They'll have to find out on their own that they can't shoot through it if they're curious. Hopefully, they won't try to shoot the RPG through it and be standing too close.

Well, I like things to be perfect. If I see something that could be better, I want to improve it. I didn't get out-of-control and make any big changes, though. I kept it limited. Caribbean was the expansion pack out of all three where I saw the most problems or things that I thought could be improved.

I'm with both you and Fox on some of these issues. Like I said before, the changes should be seamless. I actually agree with your aesthetic changes because, again, the product is improved but seamless and in accordance with what was intended. Mappers make errors sometimes. The only issue I have with the changes you've presented is the "end of level hallway." I think a Red Light District approach would work best, and I find it acceptable because of Fox's logic of "That's how 3DR would have resolved multiplayer issues." It's a good compromise in my opinion, and if done right, the end user will think it was always supposed to be that way.

[NUKEMDAVE]

Agreed. I probably should have put a fence at the end of each level, but I didn't want there to be a new, visible gap in the floor. I'm not sure I'm up for going through the levels of all three expansions and doing it over now, though. But if MetHy has a better solution to the Lost Lagoon map, I'm open to accepting it. I don't think Termit has been as active much lately. I submitted a fix for the Market Melee map to him. I forgot to add a co-op switch somewhere where a player could get stuck. I don't think that fix has made it in yet. I've been doing additional fixes of things I've missed for free. I told Termit if there were any future problems discovered, I would fix them for free and I have been.

I did try to keep some consistency with Duke3D's maps. Most of Duke3D's maps had a keycard switch on each side of a door. The Market Melee map was pretty well set up for Dukematch, but instead of having a second credit card switch on the red credit card door, they had a regular switch set to pal 1. I just replaced it with a credit card switch. Yeah, that made it visible in single player, but I thought it looked better than having regular on/off switches. Caribbean Catastrophe didn't even have a switch at all on the other side of the blue credit card door.

[Fox]

Use Critical Mass solution for crushing ceiling: you have an area which locks the door behind and the ceiling falls over you; it also opens a teleport which another player in Co-operative can use instead of the door, and if you enter the teleport it opens the teleport on the other side; in Deathmatch there switches to open the teleports.

For doors that are locked preventing the player from going back, you can can place a Touchplate to reveals a switch on the other side so that a player in Co-operative another player can open it.

[MrBlackCat]

I struggle with and see both sides of the issue(s) here. I am equally sympathetic of both however...
I like to hear the players fingers slide down the strings of the guitar... in songs I know with this occurrence. But if I never heard the song with this occurrence, I would not miss it.

The neurotic in me says "thanks for fixing the actual errors". The neurotic in me also says perfection would be to have it perfectly original, short of minimal adaptation for functionality. (like mathematically minimal, not opinion minimal.)

Considering that this is Duke 4, I greatly appreciate the level of civility that has been maintained considering the importance of BOTH points of view in this thread as I follow it.

MrBlackCat

[Danukem]

Well, I hope that everyone learned their lessons from this.

[Jimmy]

termit, on 26 April 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

Wow, you can keep stuff confidential

[Forge]

termit, on 26 April 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

Wow, you can keep stuff confidential

You didn't pay him to keep his mouth shut. That costs extra.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Jimmy, on 26 April 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

<snip>

[NUKEMDAVE]

Is that quote even real? Because I'm not seeing that post. I did keep it confidential "for now". I didn't say a word about it publicly until after the update was released that included my maps, which made it no longer confidential at that point. It stayed between me and my testers until the update came out. Oh well, I guess I shouldn't have encouraged people to go play multiplayer in the expansion packs then.

I didn't even intend to have a thread about my fixes here. I did think about it at first, but I knew there would be criticism over it. All I intended to do with that first post that started this whole thing was to offer help if there happened to be any leftover maps in that beta content that might be put on Steam Workshop or something. I'll probably end up being asked to make any maps that happen to be released multiplayer compatible anyway. I have a couple of friends who ask me to make maps multiplayer compatible every now and then.

[Forge]

NUKEMDAVE, on 26 April 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

Oh well, I guess I shouldn't have encouraged people to go play multiplayer in the expansion packs then.

facetious

NUKEMDAVE, on 26 April 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

I didn't even intend to have a thread about my fixes here. I did think about it at first, but I knew there would be criticism over it.

that's not the way you came across. it was more like being a braggart that termit came to you about the fixes, and it appeared that you were trying to throw your "weight" around like you were some kind of subject matter expert.
true intentions or not, that's how it seemed.

NUKEMDAVE, on 26 April 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

I'll probably end up being asked to make any maps that happen to be released multiplayer compatible anyway. I have a couple of friends who ask me to make maps multiplayer compatible every now and then.

like this. you're the go-to guy for everything multi-player. nobody else is capable

NUKEMDAVE, on 26 April 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

All I intended to do with that first post that started this whole thing was to offer help if there happened to be any leftover maps in that beta content that might be put on Steam Workshop or something.

some of the stuff you did, i could care less. some of the other stuff you did - or the way you did it - pass. no more please

imo, i'd rather see MetHy, Mikko Sandt, Fox, & Ryan Lennox do the map work

[NUKEMDAVE]

Forge, on 26 April 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

that's not the way you came across. it was more like being a braggart that termit came to you about the fixes, and it appeared that you were trying to throw your "weight" around like you were some kind of subject matter expert.
true intentions or not, that's how it seemed.

Well, that's not the case, but it doesn't surprise me that was assumed. I would have been fine with someone else doing it and I thought that was going to be the case for a while until I was contacted. At the time, I really wasn't up for doing all of the maps in the other two expansions (NW and D.C.), but I did. I wasn't bragging, I just wanted to mention it. It would be better than me just saying "I might be interested in working on some maps" without mentioning any work that I've done in the past.

Forge, on 26 April 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

like this. you're the go-to guy for everything multi-player. nobody else is capable

Nobody is willing... usually. Or they're busy with other things. If my friends had asked here on the forums for someone to set up maps for multiplayer for them, do you really think anyone would be up for it? I don't always have the time to lend a hand either, but I try to if I can.

[OpenMaw]

@Thread
Okay, seriously. Lay off already. It's clear to me that you're seeking to make Nukemdave out as some kind of an ego maniac, when none of his posts exhibit anything of the kind. What the fuck, people? Yes, it's worth noting that there are many others out there far more capable and experienced with the build engine, but this is getting really ridiculous. Why is this becoming a witch hunt, exactly?

The only reason this needs separation from the OT isn't because Nukemdave mentioned his work, but because people kept dragging that subject back into the original topic simply to level criticism at him. I've knownNukemdave for quite a long time, and I have never known him to be egotistical, arrogant, or self-important. He was making a passing remark about something, and that was all, FWIW. Other people took to questioning him in detail over this matter.

[Fox]

NUKEMDAVE, on 26 April 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

Nobody is willing... usually. Or they're busy with other things. If my friends had asked here on the forums for someone to set up maps for multiplayer for them, do you really think anyone would be up for it? I don't always have the time to lend a hand either, but I try to if I can.

Interesting, I could give a try.

[Forge]

Commando Nukem, on 26 April 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

@Thread
Okay, seriously. Lay off already. It's clear to me

seems to me you're on the witch hunt

i never said he was an X type of person,
i pointed out that some of the stuff he says can be perceived in a certain way. even giving an example and how it can be taken. i was merely making him aware of that and maybe it's why he's getting some of the flak he's catching now.

i never said his mapping was bad,
i mentioned that i didn't like some of his methods or choices for going about accomplishing certain tasks which i don't think would be appropriate for official 3DR material, but i didn't go off on some extended rail about it. i couldn't have done any better and i wouldn't have even tried.

i'm passively mentioning things. NukemDave is taking it for what it is. you seem to feel the need to be aggressive and offended about it

[termit]

Nukem Dave help us a lot with multiplayer testing and map fixes. I am grateful to him for that. Why did I asked him to fix maps? Because he was the only one who suggested help with maps.
About my previous message on keeping stuff confidential. I just don't think it's a good idea to share screenshots of private messages, especially when some one asking to keep confidentiality on it
A community member contacted me recently and suggested his help to improve maps as he is very experienced with map editing. We are discussing details.
Thanks guys for pointing out that expansion maps need more work.

[NUKEMDAVE]

termit, on 27 April 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

About my previous message on keeping stuff confidential. I just don't think it's a good idea to share screenshots of private messages, especially when some one asking to keep confidentiality on it

I wouldn't have if I wasn't pressured into having to show it to prove something. I'm sorry.

As for adding a gate to the end of the maps, that wouldn't work perfectly everywhere, like this place:



There would be that gap in the middle. I'm not sure if a player could slip through it or not, but I guess it's possible. It doesn't look as good with a gap to me. Also, some of the level endings have even bigger exits than that, and the gates would have to be scaled pretty large to block it off. I'm not even sure that would look too great either.

Just because I didn't do things that some of you don't agree with, doesn't mean I was incapable of doing them that way. What I did worked and I went with it. I had a few people help me test the maps out extensively to find problems. I can say that I did a good job seeking out and eliminating areas where players could get trapped by adding extra switches where they were necessary. If someone else is going to work on the maps now, I would recommend that they just improve on my maps. Otherwise, there's going to be a lot of work on their hands checking for areas where players can get trapped.

Edit: And if the person who's going to work on the maps now has any questions about anything, ask me.

[Fox]

You should put it before the stairs, and use the same tile from the masked wall in the next level.

[Danukem]

Forge, on 26 April 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

seems to me you're on the witch hunt

I'm going to butt in, just because I can.

No one is on a witch hunt. I don't believe that you are on a witch hunt, nor is Commando Nukem or anyone else in this thread. But in a web forum, when people post a lot of comments about something, the sheer number of comments gives the impression that it is a big deal. Even if each criticism is reasonable and civil, the effect of piling them on can seem a lot like persecution, even if it's not intended that way.

I think everyone who has been paying attention understands what happened. Some mistakes were made, some feathers were ruffled and life goes on.

[Jimmy]

Seems simple enough to me.




P.S. I was never criticising Nukem Dave. I'm enthusiastic about making the games as good as possible, like I said, I liked some of his small changes to aesthetics that make the game more immersive. I think such a discussion is healthy, but maybe not in some of the rhetoric. I don't think NukemDave had anything but good intentions.

[Fox]

Hitler was a man with good intentions.

[Jimmy]

Fox, on 27 April 2014 - 05:36 PM, said:

Hitler was a good man with good intentions.

FTFY

[NUKEMDAVE]

Fox, on 27 April 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

You should put it before the stairs, and use the same tile from the masked wall in the next level.

That will work, I guess. I don't like cutting off more access to a part of a map than I have to, though.

Jimmy, on 27 April 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

I don't think NukemDave had anything but good intentions.

Correct. What drove me to want to help was because I tried to play co-op in Caribbean with a friend shortly after the multiplayer was added to the game. We made it to the Lost Lagoon map and realized there were some serious problems, so that's what drove me to want to solve the problems because I really wanted to be able to play the whole thing in co-op. When I did come up with a solution for that map, I showed my fixes on the game's community hub and that's where Termit took notice.