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Build engine games general

User is offline   MetHy 

  • 1,522

#181

View PostPhredreeke, on 31 August 2018 - 05:16 AM, said:

Refinery is awesome but no Gamblin' Boat? :P


Gamblin' Boat is great. Great theme, great Z axis oriented layout, and great effects with the boat sinking at the end (I've always wondered if Merljin was inspired by this for Red4), however the map feels very empty, under detailed, and the combat situations are really not so good.

Moto Madness:


Brothel:

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User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 377

#182

Refinery has a nice, complex layout, but also a very depressing atmosphere, and I'm not sold on the texturing as well. It's one of those "journey to the center of feces" maps, which RR is infamous for.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 31 August 2018 - 01:33 PM

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User is offline   RunningDuke 

  • 265

#183

View PostSanek, on 29 August 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

Duke Carribean is the best expansion for Duke, while DC is just bland in my opinion. Duke Xtreme is big step below, but I guess people enjoyed it back in the day because of it's funny features.
I actually enjoyed NW back when I was a kid, but I undersand why people consider it the worst expansion of them all. The only reason that NW, Duke!Zone I and 2 was released as a commercial products is because Sillysoft had a very good relationship with WizardWorks by the time when Duke3D came out - before that, Sillysoft made frontends and packaking for all these D!Zone for Doom shovelware collections. Duke3D was a popular game, and WizardWorks wanter something Duke-related fast and on budget, and Sillysoft was there to provide it.

I see and yeah first time I heard of the Duke3D expansions back in 2007, I thought NW sounded the coolest ( :P ) just because of its winter theme but even when playing it, I didn't find that bad. It wasn't until the early 2010s when I started to see the flaws of the expansion and then I realized how bad it is but still didn't think it's THAT bad. A few years ago I started to somewhat dislike the expansion but I still don't consider to be AS BAD as everyone says, it is the weakest of the 3 addons no doubt that. But it's not the Duke Zone levels of bad, in my opinion. And yeah I know the story behind all these shovelware compilations but speaking of NW, I wish either Sillysoft did a better job at the expansion or was created by Sunstorm instead of Sillysoft, now I can imagine a properly made NW expansion.

Quote

I made videos of my 3 favourite maps in RR Rides Again, pistolstart/psychobilly. Maybe this can convince the people in here these aren't such bad games:

Methy, I understand you like the RR games (I have no problem with that) and even though the RR games aren't as bad as I said before (maybe only the main game is truly bad because of the level design), they are just nowhere near as good as the Big Three of the BUILD games. Maybe if they were made by 3DR just like they made Duke3D, SW and Blood (only partially, before the project being handed to Monolith), then RR would have been a much better game. Just another one of those "what if" thoughts I have been having, like with the case above.

Quote

Refinery has a nice, complex layout, but also a very depressing atmosphere, and I'm not sold on the texturing as well. It's one of those "journey to the center of feces" maps, which RR is infamous for.

Exactly! And the part "journey to the center of feces" made me laugh really hard. :lol:
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User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 377

#184

I have a similar opinion on Nuclear Winter. I even defended it on the AMC forums back then. Now I realised it's bad. Really bad. Yeah, there are worse things for this game, even a lot worse things, especially around 1996-97. But they didn't ask money for those. DukeZone 1-2 and Duke Xtreme are stuff I pretend that don't exist. I mean, c'mon, what were they thinking when they made those maps? It still needed work, they had to build the sectors, texture the walls, put the sector effectors, the keys, the enemies in there in 3D mode, they even hacked the cons, but what the hell were they thinking? Did they expect them to be good?

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 01 September 2018 - 11:58 AM

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User is online   Phredreeke 

  • 245

#185

View PostRunningDuke, on 01 September 2018 - 05:09 AM, said:

Methy, I understand you like the RR games (I have no problem with that) and even though the RR games aren't as bad as I said before (maybe only the main game is truly bad because of the level design), they are just nowhere near as good as the Big Three of the BUILD games. Maybe if they were made by 3DR just like they made Duke3D, SW and Blood (only partially, before the project being handed to Monolith), then RR would have been a much better game. Just another one of those "what if" thoughts I have been having, like with the case above.


Who would have thought "Duke with Rednecks" wouldn't be as good as "original Duke" :rolleyes:

Yes, Redneck is flawed. So is Total Meltdown's Plug n Pray episode, Shadow Warrior's Twin Dragon (why would you put that many mines in the second level?), Blood's Cryptic Passage, heck even 3D Realm's own The Birth. Yet plenty of us here enjoy those despite their flaws :P
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User is offline   Sanek 

  • 585

#186

View PostNancsi, on 01 September 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

I have a similar opinion on Nuclear Winter. I even defended it on the AMC forums back then. Now I realised it's bad. Really bad. Yeah, there are worse things for this game, even a lot worse things, especially around 1996-97. But they didn't ask money for those. DukeZone 1-2 and Duke Xtreme are stuff I pretend that don't exist. I mean, c'mon, what were they thinking when they made those maps? It still needed work, they had to build the sectors, texture the walls, put the sector effectors, the keys, the enemies in there in 3D mode, they even hacked the cons, but what the hell were they thinking? Did they expect them to be good?


Despite NW's reputation, I wouldn't say that it's as bad as the other addons you mentioned. NW have a decent amount of details, good lighting and generally look more polished than DukeZone II and Duke Xtreme, which looks indistinguishable from the amateur user maps released at the same time. I mean, some seriously think that NW is worse than DukeZone II? Come on. :rolleyes:

Speaking of RR, while the level design is the notoriously flawed part of the game, it still can form what can be called a "Big Four" of Build games. It had that professional look that other Build games (NAM, WWII, Capstone's games) just didn't have.
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User is offline   necroslut 

  • 223

#187

View PostPhredreeke, on 01 September 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

Who would have thought "Duke with Rednecks" wouldn't be as good as "original Duke" :rolleyes:

Yes, Redneck is flawed. So is Total Meltdown's Plug n Pray episode, Shadow Warrior's Twin Dragon (why would you put that many mines in the second level?), Blood's Cryptic Passage, heck even 3D Realm's own The Birth. Yet plenty of us here enjoy those despite their flaws :P


All those are far better than RR. The Redneck games had some really cool looking levels, but the games didn't play well at all, which is quite important when you're making a game.

View PostSanek, on 01 September 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

Speaking of RR, while the level design is the notoriously flawed part of the game, it still can form what can be called a "Big Four" of Build games. It had that professional look that other Build games (NAM, WWII, Capstone's games) just didn't have.


RR had the professional look for sure, just too bad it didn't have the professional gameplay...

Blue barrels are heavier than regular barrels
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User is offline   axl 

  • 161

#188

View Postnecroslut, on 01 September 2018 - 08:58 PM, said:

RR had the professional look for sure, just too bad it didn't have the professional gameplay...


Indeed. RR looks really good, has a VERY good soundtrack, but the gameplay is indeed seriously lacking. And the level design is very confusing. The latter was greatly corrected in Rides Again, which is the better game. But the gameplay still is far off from the other Build games.
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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

  • 3,206

#189

Never had heard of Redneck Rampage. Not until I came to these boards. Still have never played it.

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User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 377

#190

Never heard of Duke Nukem. Is he a member of the british royal family?
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User is offline   thricecursed 

  • 27

#191

I feel like I'll give it another go once M210 releases his port even though I disliked it the last time I played it. The level design isn't just bad it's plain atrocious, lol. But it'll be nice to play it on a high resolution. Dosbox never worked quite right with it. I hope the PC version of Powerslave gets the same treatment eventually.
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User is online   Phredreeke 

  • 245

#192

Keep in mind that RR doesn't have armor, instead food and alcohol serve dual roles in that they both heal you AND provide damage reduction through alcohol and gut meters. Moonshine is the exception in that it first gives you a speed boost like Duke's Steroids and then reset both meters.
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User is offline   MetHy 

  • 1,522

#193

View PostNancsi, on 31 August 2018 - 01:32 PM, said:

Refinery has a nice, complex layout, but also a very depressing atmosphere, and I'm not sold on the texturing as well. It's one of those "journey to the center of feces" maps, which RR is infamous for.


I would understand calling maps like Smelting Plant "journey to the center of feces", but not the entire game is like that, and not Refinery. The only "dirty" moment is going through the vats full of oil, which is a classic Build level progression trope, that is to say using the unexpected route, which is comparable for instance to sewage moments in DN3D like in Death Row, Launch Facility, etc

In fact, Refinery could fit pretty much as is (without the bike) as a DN3D map, though more part of The Birth than ep1/3 due to the more realistic, down to earth layout and architecture, compared to L.A Metldown and Sharpnel City's tendency for cool but unrealistic crazyness.

The reasons I like the map so much is that it's everything classic Build mapping, influenced by DN3D, is all about. It is highly theme centric: one map, one precise and cool theme. It has the interconnected layout, and you get to see later/earlier parts of the level as you progress from different point of views. It alternates between outdoor/indoor parts. The 3D feel: with lot's of Z involved either between SoS, sprite structures, or even a bit of RoR, while also having you fight enemies which are above or below you. Like I said level progression involves having to go through the unexpected cool route, but also requires solving some simple puzzles. The level has quite a lot awesome structures like machinery related to oil pumping and storage, and effects use like water level rising, the 2-way train over RoR, and of course tons of explosions including the place blowing up at the end.

All of that is what defines classic Build level design, with all its tropes, and the map has it all. On top of this, the map is technically speaking very impressive and makes use of cool things RR/RR:RA brought to the table, for instance lighting/shading is a mix between regular sector/wall shading, lighting directly applied on textures, as well as using transparent black sprites, all used together to go over the limit of what should be possible with Build. There is also a very smart mix of sector and sprite structure for 3D layouts.
The map is highly detailed but almost without ever hindering gameplay (I'll show that flaw later), the balance between "not enough" and "too much" is spot on to remain classic, playable, yet impressive.
Then, there is also the bike at the start of the map, used not only for cool fights but as a progression mean. Also the annoying nature of keys and switches use inherent to RR is almost completely avoided, and there is also no "in your face" titty alien bitches, which are probably the two biggest flaws of RR.

Finally, gunplay in the map is some of the finest in the entire RR franchise. Almost every enemy choice and placement is perfect and goes with the environment in a clever way, leading in a gameplay balance that goes from taking cover, to blasting shit up, to sniping, while always giving an incentive to switch weapons.


The map isn't perfect though and there is one trope pretty much missing: secrets. iirc there is only 3 and only 1 of them is really interesting. Also this one room is too cramped for its own good and has some nasty invisible walls.


This post has been edited by MetHy: 08 September 2018 - 04:01 AM

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User is offline   Sanek 

  • 585

#194

RR's complicated industrial levels reminds me of Billy Boy's maps a lot. Is there anybody who's also think so?
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User is offline   MetHy 

  • 1,522

#195

Does anyone know the retail prices of all Build games at release starting with Witchaven?

I'm very curious about late ones which are also pretty short, like Rides Again, NAM, WW2 GI. Even Redneck Rampage only has 2 episodes.
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User is offline   Sanek 

  • 585

#196

You can visit the archived website of the publisher/approved vendor and see what price they offered. I guess it can be pretty close to the retail prices of the time. For example, Interplay wanted $44.95 for RR!

Or maybe there's a chance that some of forum members still have a retail copy with a price sticker on it.
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User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 377

#197

View PostSanek, on 08 September 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

RR's complicated industrial levels reminds me of Billy Boy's maps a lot. Is there anybody who's also think so?


Yeah, especially Cranium and Bedrone. They felt like RR maps on steroids though, RR is not that bad. I'm not sure what was Billy Boy thinking when he made his maps. He took all the wrong tropes of "how not to make a map" and put into his works. The primary offender were those "switch in one place, door in the other side of the big map with at least 25 doors between the two, 16 are phony, 9 are to open from other irrelevant switches" moments. This kind of gameplay had been proven wrong in Stephen Cole's SW maps, but if you add major confusion, it becomes unplayable. Too bad, because the guy had talent to make visually appealing levels.
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User is offline   Avoozl 

  • 18

#198

I am in the minority here but honestly RR is probably my least favorite Build game.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 410

#199

View PostGrand Admiral Thrawn, on 14 September 2018 - 05:42 PM, said:

I am in the minority here but honestly RR is probably my least favorite Build game.

Depends on what you refer to as Build games really: if you think that even TekWar is better than RR then you are definitely in the minority. :D

The way I see it when it comes to the more popular Build games (Duke 3D, Blood, Shadow Warrior, RR) RR is absolutely the weakest of them and I think most people would agree with me (there is a reason why people like to refer to Duke, Blood and SW as the big three of Build engine games). RR is a "Xatrix game": just like Kingpin it's an FPS with a very fun atmosphere but with kinda weak mechanics. If I want to play a good FPS I play other stuff, I play RR because it's just awesome to shoot rednecks and aliens while listening to Mojo Nixon. :D
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User is offline   thricecursed 

  • 27

#200

RR's probably got the highest resolution textures of any game from that year, though. I'd rather play RR than Quake 2 at this point. I also just dig the aesthetic of sprites and the cartoony-ness of Build games. But yeah, I wish it was more "creepy rednecks" instead of goofy rednecks. It could've been more like Blood.

It also somehow pisses me off less than the worst aspects of Shadow Warrior. Mainly because I really want to like SW, but every time I play it the guns and the puzzles piss me off. Like moving those pillars on the level with the flying carpet. Makes me want to quit every time. RR I already think is kinda shitty, so it's less annoying.

This post has been edited by thricecursed: 15 September 2018 - 08:04 AM

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User is offline   Avoozl 

  • 18

#201

View PostZaxx, on 15 September 2018 - 12:35 AM, said:

Depends on what you refer to as Build games really: if you think that even TekWar is better than RR then you are definitely in the minority. :D

The way I see it when it comes to the more popular Build games (Duke 3D, Blood, Shadow Warrior, RR) RR is absolutely the weakest of them and I think most people would agree with me (there is a reason why people like to refer to Duke, Blood and SW as the big three of Build engine games). RR is a "Xatrix game": just like Kingpin it's an FPS with a very fun atmosphere but with kinda weak mechanics. If I want to play a good FPS I play other stuff, I play RR because it's just awesome to shoot rednecks and aliens while listening to Mojo Nixon. :D
Well I never knew TekWar was a Build engine game nor have I ever played it.
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User is offline   necroslut 

  • 223

#202

View PostZaxx, on 15 September 2018 - 12:35 AM, said:

Depends on what you refer to as Build games really: if you think that even TekWar is better than RR then you are definitely in the minority. :D

The way I see it when it comes to the more popular Build games (Duke 3D, Blood, Shadow Warrior, RR) RR is absolutely the weakest of them and I think most people would agree with me (there is a reason why people like to refer to Duke, Blood and SW as the big three of Build engine games). RR is a "Xatrix game": just like Kingpin it's an FPS with a very fun atmosphere but with kinda weak mechanics. If I want to play a good FPS I play other stuff, I play RR because it's just awesome to shoot rednecks and aliens while listening to Mojo Nixon. :D

While I agree with you, TekWar is at least ambitious in a way Redneck Rampage isn't. Not that they managed to pull through on those ambitions, but anyway. ;)
I would argue that Powerslave is a much better game than RR. Yes, the PC version.

Blue barrels are heavier than regular barrels
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User is offline   Newken 

  • 19

#203

I finished Redneck Rampage (RedneckGDX) recently and I had a blast. Now it's time for Route 66. B)
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User is offline   thricecursed 

  • 27

#204

View Postnecroslut, on 16 September 2018 - 12:32 AM, said:

While I agree with you, TekWar is at least ambitious in a way Redneck Rampage isn't. Not that they managed to pull through on those ambitions, but anyway. ;)
I would argue that Powerslave is a much better game than RR. Yes, the PC version.


Ditto on Powerslave. I can't say enough good things about it (as well as the console versions). I know Night Dive intends to release PowerslaveEX at some point, but I wonder if anyone knows if they intend to port the PC version as well.
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User is offline   necroslut 

  • 223

#205

View Postthricecursed, on 16 September 2018 - 02:33 AM, said:

Ditto on Powerslave. I can't say enough good things about it (as well as the console versions). I know Night Dive intends to release PowerslaveEX at some point, but I wonder if anyone knows if they intend to port the PC version as well.

At least the PC version works fine enough in DOSBox these days - I remember it trying to play it when it barely ran.

Blue barrels are heavier than regular barrels
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User is offline   thricecursed 

  • 27

#206

View Postnecroslut, on 16 September 2018 - 02:52 AM, said:

At least the PC version works fine enough in DOSBox these days - I remember it trying to play it when it barely ran.


Yeah, I had it set up with the cutscenes working and everything, but I can't handle the low FOV. Makes me nauseous and gives me a headache after 5 minutes. As a kid I think I just put up with it, but I like to play these oldies while listening to podcasts and relaxing after work.
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User is online   Phredreeke 

  • 245

#207

The latest RedneckGDX does address one of the most common complaints of RR in that keys are now distinctly colored.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • 410

#208

View Postnecroslut, on 16 September 2018 - 12:32 AM, said:

While I agree with you, TekWar is at least ambitious in a way Redneck Rampage isn't. Not that they managed to pull through on those ambitions, but anyway. ;)
I would argue that Powerslave is a much better game than RR. Yes, the PC version.

Both are valid arguments... and to me that's kinda weird because Powerslave is not something I'd confidently call "good" either while the Xatrix guys ultimately ended up making Return to Castle Wolfenstein. It's crazy how much a developer can improve in just a few years.
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User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 377

#209

I still don't know if RRRA level designer Mal Blackwell is the same guy as our mblackwell...
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User is offline   Fox 

  • Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!
  • 4,960

#210

Mblackwell name is Jonathan Strander, as listed in Ion Maiden credits.
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