[Kyanos]

Hendricks266, on 04 August 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

EDuke32 can build KenBuild, type `make kenbuild`. Unfortunately there is no sound support because I wasn't about to add fmod and KenBuild is rock bottom priority. It was just an exercise for Shadow Warrior.

I've got half a mind to replace fmod with openal. It'll be my first time dealing with any sound library so I'm interested to see what all is going on here. And it's a good corner for me to fuck around in without stepping on any toes, seeing as it's rock bottom priority.

[Hendricks266]

I noticed the build was broken due to some recent changes but it was a snappy fix and it should be coming soon to a push near you.

If you're working from EDuke32's codebase, we will not accept any patches that link us to sound processing middleware. All forks should be made either as a proof of concept (not attempting to gain a userbase) or both under our direction and with intent to merge, to not be considered hostile. I would gladly accept a patch that gets it working with just SDL's sound API (not SDL_mixer). For music, you would need to port in the KDM player from LAB3D (which is under a license textually identical to BUILDLIC). The hard parts for a beginner would be the math to do per-channel 3D positional volume adjustment for the sounds, loading the file formats, and messing with the build system. I would gladly answer any questions you have, should this interest you.

[Kyanos]

Yeah, that sounds good. As of now all of the ekenbuild.exe's I've been able to compile just crash at start-up (after screen res menu, with a quick flicker of a window opening.)

[Kyanos]

Since that fix I can now compile ekenbuild out of the box, but it still doesn't run for me. Testgame.log just stops at loading the texture cache.

[Hendricks266]

Let me walk you through how I would find the solution.

Get into position like you're going to compile ekenbuild. `make kenbuild RELEASE=0`. Then from the same command window, move the exe into position and chdir to the same folder.

Run the following: `gdb ekenbuild.exe`

Type `r` and hit enter.

If GDB says anything about a signal or an exception, very good. Issue the `bt` command to get a backtrace and paste it here.

If it says something about "Program exited", then we'll have to hunt further. With a RELEASE=0 build, the log file should say something about exit() being called and a source file and line number. If not, hard mode:

Back at the GDB prompt, type `b exit` to set a breakpoint at the exit function. Run with `r`. Once the breakpoint on exit() is hit, type `bt` for a backtrace and paste it here.

Run `q` to quit.

[Kyanos]

Hendricks266, on 05 August 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:

just SDL's sound API (not SDL_mixer). For music, you would need to port in the KDM player from LAB3D

I passed on this task, it was way over my head. I did get 3d sound and ogg music working for me in kenbuild using SDL mixer.

[MetHy]

Bumping this thread because I'm not sure making a Witchaven thread is going to go miles.

Finally decided to play both games for the first time.

Overall it was fun but painful at the same time. The main problem with the games, and somehow this felt even worse in 2, is how enemies damage you at the start of their attack animations. Meaning you get hit, then see the animation unfold. So you never see it coming while at the same time, you have to wait for the (sometimes really long) animations of your weapons for a hit to register against your enemies.
Unfair and unfun chore design... to which you can add deadly traps you can often not see coming.

Using the better weapons and/or power-ups was satisfying though.

One thing I do like about the games is how they let you break it if you're stuck. You can use scrolls to open lock doors, to fly, and even build your own staircase using arrows. It's in limited supply but there is enough to skip something when you're really sick of it. This was required quite a few times for me, and in 2 a couple times I even had to cheat to skip to the next level because doors seemed glitched, not even the scrolls would open them..

Half of 1's maps are early 90's senseless maze shit, but the other half is quite good, although nothing compared to Dark Forces' level design which was made at the same time.

2 had 10 less maps but they were generally better, less senseless stuff, more complicated layout, more details (slopes etc). Even then I somehow enjoyed 1 more, the good maps in 1 have a real personality, immersive atmosphere, almost like Powerslave, which few of 2's had.

Witchaven 1 screenshots:

Spoiler

Witchaven 2 screenshots (somehow one of the water textures was glitched):

Spoiler

[Daedolon]

There are a lot of insanely well hidden switches, so doors that seem glitched are just behind a stupid puzzle.

The water is reflective in certain rooms, not a bug.

[MetHy]

Daedolon, on 25 August 2018 - 05:02 AM, said:

There are a lot of insanely well hidden switches, so doors that seem glitched are just behind a stupid puzzle.

There is at least one door that's glitched for sure, you can't beat level 13 without cheating : "Black key door does not work on WH2 Level 13 / The tag for the door to open was erroneously given to an overlapped sector instead of the correct one."

Another time I thought the door didn't work was the last door of level 10. I just checked in Build and turns out there is a trigger nearby, I must have activated twice without paying attention. I thought the door was broken because not even the unlock spell works on it, whereas it works on everything else (perhaps it doesn't work on slide doors?) and the door texture at the bottom is misaligned.

In WH1 there is also a broken switch (pull chain) in level 5 and another time I'm pretty sure you have to use the fly spell and enter a room through the window because the room just won't open.

Quote

The water is reflective in certain rooms, not a bug.

Well, it does look really uncanny, like here:



Took me a while to realize I was even allowed to walk on there

[NNC]

It might be an unpopular opiinion, but I think Duke 3D is in a different league compared to the rest of the Build engine games, including Blood or even SW. The amount of work, money, professionalism that were put into the game (despite the messy development) is amazing, and it's only comparable to the likes of Doom, Quake or HL.

While I enjoy SW, the more I play it, the more I feel it's not really a game of its own, but more like Duke Nukem 3D Total Conversion, an outstanding one for that. As I said in the other thread, SW has weaker leveldesign than Duke, particularly on Cole's side (but also hampered by the mix of many authors in most maps), and the combat is problematic with guns are clearly underpowered.

I feel that Blood and RR are just nice indie games, they have their moments of course, but certainly not AAA products of their times. Blood has a weird palette that I simply can't get used to, the somewhat blocky leveldesign (like in SW), and combat issues (like the cultists' hitscan accuracy, or the awkward use of some "joke" weapons like the aerosol can or the voodoo doll... even regular ones like the dynamite are unconfortable for me). RR is a game about showing hi-res texturing, and they completely forgot to add stuff like proper gameplay. Levels are mostly meh, they are not made by pros, I'm afraid. The problems like the overpowered dogs, the too small keys, the somewhat "disgusting" nature of the game hurt it even more.

The rest of the Build games are meh in my opinion. I mean, you can see the good points in NAM or like Redneck Deer Hunting, but they are just obscure curiosities, nothing more.

[MetHy]

MetHy, on 25 August 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:

Another time I thought the door didn't work was the last door of level 10. I just checked in Build and turns out there is a trigger nearby, I must have activated twice without paying attention. I thought the door was broken because not even the unlock spell works on it, whereas it works on everything else (perhaps it doesn't work on slide doors?) and the door texture at the bottom is misaligned.

Correction: I just replayed the map because this bothered me. The trigger requires the black key, except that it's the 2nd time I did pick it up but it doesn't show in the inventory! So the only way seems to be to cheat to get the key.

and also that pull chain in WH1 level 5, it is required to progress, so the only way to beat the map legit is to use an open door spell on the wall, the only indication of it being open-able being that it shows as a red wall in the map.

How did those games even get released with so many dead ends caused by glitches?

[Micky C]

Randy Pitchford was in charge?

[MetHy]

MetHy, on 25 August 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:

There is at least one door that's glitched for sure, you can't beat level 13 without cheating : "Black key door does not work on WH2 Level 13 / The tag for the door to open was erroneously given to an overlapped sector instead of the correct one."

Another correction: apparently you don't need to go in that room to beat the map. It might require using a fly spell instead though, not too sure, that map is very confusing.

Some more fun glitches, warning: avoid stalactites and stalagmites made with steep slopes like the plague, or you're going to have to restart the game as not even loading a previous save seem to cancel it





Another "fun" glitch is how once in a while, the game makes you fly continously upward all of a sudden for no apparent reason, with no fly spell on. Amazing.

[FistMarine]

Nancsi, I agree with you on some of the points you made, mostly that Duke3D was the most polished one out of the BUILD engine games. Here is my opinion about each of the BUILD engine games:

Duke3D is the best one and had the best setting, best weapons, best enemies, best level design, best soundtrack and so on. I admit it's also a bit of nostalgia seeing that it's pretty much the only BUILD engine game I played as kid and might have been the very first game I ever played back in 1998 when I was only 2-3 years old, so this is the game that will always hold a special place in my heart. While this may not be a surprise (I think most of people around this forum have Duke3D as their favorite BUILD game), I also have some minor things that I dislike about the game, mostly related to when Plutonium Pak/Atomic Edition came out.

Some people, myself included, still prefer the original 1.3D full version of the game over the Atomic Edition, at least when playing the game in original DOSBox. Why is that? Because there were some changes introduced in 1.4/1.5 that I simply didn't like. I know there were a few bug fixes as the original 1.3D was kinda buggy in some places and it's good they fixed some bugs but they fixed the double mighty foot bug (one of my favorite bugs in the game!) which was a known bug that I discovered myself...at age of 3! Yes really! Along the kick bug, I also discovered a few other interesting bugs, glitches and tricks by myself, although a little bit later and I won't go into too many details. Among other changes in 1.4/1.5, I also didn't like as much the new font compared to the old one from 1.3D but at least the change is justifiable, as the new font shows that you are playing the new version. The opening demos also aren't as memorable as the ones from 1.3D, the ones in 1.3D are longer and show mostly a walkthrough of Dark Side and Flood Zone, while the demos in AE are short and a mixed bag. The first demo is Freeway (the second secret level in E3) which shouldn't be shown, as the point of the expansion is to exclusively show the expansion levels, there is no need to show a level I have already played before. The demo also stops for no reason during the fight with a Mini Battlelord, the player doesn't die as still has about 100 health left and doesn't die, it just abruptly ends. The second demo of Area 51 is more action packed and player dies at the end of it. The third demo of Duke Burger mostly ignores the enemies in beginning just to enter the restaurant and then deals with the enemies inside, then the player just stops the recording. So yeah, the demos are nowhere near as memorable as the ones from 1.3D.

Now speaking of E4, I also consider The Birth to be not as good as the original 3 episodes. Mostly because more mappers worked on it and it feels like a bunch of user maps slapped together to form an episode. I also didn't really enjoy Randy's maps in this episode (although Area 51 is his best one), mostly because of the oversized mess and the balance being all over place. Take for example It's Impossible. It has a cool theme for an opening level (which sets the mood for the episode) but the rooms feel too large suffering from oversizing (as mentioned before) and it has some bullshit traps, like the explosions at end before falling down the vent (you must throw a pipebomb and then run in previous room before detonating, otherwise you will get caught by the explosions), which then reveals monsters hidden behind rooms which can corner you easily if you don't know how to react fast in this situation. Overall Randy's maps aren't that bad but they feel more like user maps to me, which are good but nowhere near as good/memorable as Allen Blum's maps or Levelord's maps (some of the maps in E4 still have their charm, mostly the ones by Allen Blum). The funny thing I realized recently is that the levels Randy made in E4 are the first level, the secret level and the last level, he didn't make any level from middle of episode. I also wish Levelord was properly credited for his maps, so he wouldn't leave 3DR and then have some guys edit his maps for the worse (the original names for the maps also sounded better) and I also wish the episode was made by just Allen Blum and Levelord, just like the first 3 episodes and Alien World Order. Yeah, I dare to say that some of the levels in AWO are even better than some of the levels in E4. Of course there are some good parts about E4 as well, in terms of level design: the more memorable and better designed Duke Burger, Derelict being a large and cool level (yes I liked this level, although a bit confusing at times) and list continues. The new enemies are also pretty cool but I wish they didn't suffer from the resize bug, as it's pretty silly (seen mostly in user maps) to see a Protector Drone appear large but then when it sees you, it shrinks to normal size. The new weapon Microwave Expander is ok but it's too gimmicky and has a low 50 ammo limit. Would have been a lot better if it worked like the Shrinker with just shooting a projectile and would have dealt enough damage (perhaps 50 damage compared to 15, so it's not overkill) to expand the enemy and act like a "better" shrinker. However it made a small improvement in gameplay in that compared to 1.3D, you could kill the Protozoid Slimers by kicking them, while in 1.3D you couldn't kill them. And they also fixed the slightly annoying harmful acid (dropped by barrels or slimer) even if you had boots on, among other minor annoyances from 1.3D. I have played and finished Duke3D countless times, including both original version and Atomic Edition and a few times each of the 3 addons. Overall, Duke3D is an excellent game and AE is a good expansion but the levels aren't as memorable as the 3 original episodes. I haven't played World Tour yet but judging from what I saw on YouTube, some levels in AWO are better than ones in The Birth as mentioned above.

SW also felt like a very good Duke3D TC to me. SW to Duke3D is basically what Hexen is to Heretic, in sense that they are BOTH created by same developer and feel very similar in style, just with some differences regarding weapons, enemies, setting, etc.
But yeah SW wasn't as memorable as Duke3D as the level design wasn't as good, the weapons felt a bit weaker and more gimmicky, the Ripper Heart for example, while sounds good to summon a friendly Lo Wang clone to deal with enemies, it had only a max ammo limit of 5 (would have been better if it had an ammo limit of 10) and the clone wasn't as reliable as you think. Sure, it did clear rooms of enemies if used correctly but it's not able to detect a Shadow Ninja, so it's useless against them. Plus it creates an additional "enemy" and you can't get all kills anymore if you try to get all kills in a level. The Guardian Head suffers from a low ammo limit of 80 compared to its firing rate, so you run out of ammo quickly. Couldn't have they made the ammo limit at least 90? As you get 30 ammo per each head collected, so it makes more sense to have 90 ammo. The railgun also suffers a bit from low ammo limit, would have been better if it had at least 30 ammo but at least it's justified in that it's a powerful weapon. However if in Quake 2 you could carry 50 slugs (100 with backpack) with your Railgun, why can't do here as well?
The Nuke is another gimmicky weapon, which most people would have probably used against a boss but even against a boss isn't that good as it doesn't seem to do as much damage as you think (it barely does like 20-25% damage to their health bar) and you run the risk of killing yourself from the high blast radius. It works better against rooms full of enemies, say if there are 20 enemies in a room, just use a nuke and take cover fast and it should kill all of them. The nuke is available in nearly every level, I believe, so you are encouraged to use one in most of the levels.
The enemies are not well balanced, with the colored ninjas being among the most annoying, with their bullshit insta kill attacks, especially the shadow ninjas! I have finished the game twice before on Who Wants Wang (never played as kid as I never owned the game, have played first time about 5 years ago) and currently I'm doing a new playthrough on No Pain No Gain. Overall the game is great.

Blood is a good game in my opinion, although I've got yet to play the game (yes I still haven't played the game outside of the alpha version) but I have seen enough videos of it on YouTube to get familiarized with the game. I can't comment on the overall impression as I didn't play the game yet but I heard it is plagued by a couple of annoyances, such as the early versions being extremely buggy (how did they release such a buggy game originally?), some enemies being a bit unbalanced (like the cultists with their high accuracy and damage output and the stone gargoyle being very difficult to kill), the save bug which causes the damage to change depending of the skill (the lower skills would make the game harder and the highest skill would make the game easier) and so on.

RR is garbage. It has a few good things going on, such as the high quality textures but overall feels like a shittier version of Duke3D. I have already pointed out what I disliked about the game in 2 other threads a couple of months ago, so I will not repeat myself but all I can say is the level design is pretty bad, the enemies have weird collision (mostly the animals and the small enemies), the weapons feel boring and the humor just plain sucks in general. I have played and finished once the main game, addon and sequel, last year on DOSBox. As Nancsi said, I can say it is indeed a disgusting game and also didn't deserve any of the praise it has gotten. It should have faded into obscurity along with other obscure games released back then. It just doesn't deserve to be mentioned along with the Big Three of the BUILD engine games.

Sadly the other BUILD engine games are somewhere between mediocre and bad. I will not comment much on each, so I will just mention a bit about each of them:

PowerSlave is just ok, nothing special in my opinion. It has an interesting Egyptian theme but it's not anywhere close to the big FPS games. I also hate how it doesn't have the classic save game system and instead the game relies on lives and saving between the levels. The only version of the game I have played (both as kid and few months ago) was some beta demo version of the game which has just 2 levels. I have also played the Re-Exhumed mod for GZDoom and that's pretty much it.

TekWar is meh, I never played the game before but I have seen on YouTube and it's again nothing special.

Witchaven is awful. I remember trying the game as kid (I guess it was the second one, Witchaven II: Blood Vengeance) and all I remember is that fucking creepy ass talking face (I guess it appeared when installing or starting up the game?) and that the game itself was boring and uninteresting. I haven't played the game since then and occasionally have seen a bit on YouTube before but otherwise it's not something I would like to play again.

NAM is pretty much a Duke3D TC and would have been better off released as freeware as a simple mod/TC for Duke3D. Same goes to World War II GI. Played and finished both of them once, last year on EDuke32 and they were ok as Duke mods but not as commercial games.

Extreme Paintbrawl is the worst of the worst. Never played the game but I have seen it before on YouTube. Glad I never played this piece of crap.

Overall:

-Duke3D is the best one

-SW is really good but not as good as Duke3D

-Blood is also really good but it is debatable whether is better than SW and/or as good as Duke3D. I think I would rate Blood and SW equally, with Duke3D better than both.

-RR doesn't deserve to be in same league as Duke3D, SW and Blood. Instead, the Big Four is made of Duke3D, SW, Blood and Ion Maiden.

Ion Maiden is excellent and it has the potential to be better than both SW and Blood and just as good as Duke3D!

And I apologize for a very long post but I needed to say my honest opinion about each of the BUILD engine games.

[Phredreeke]

I'd rate Blood above SW and even Duke. While I enjoyed Redneck, the quality of maps is a bit inconsistent. Also while I like the soundtrack having the same 8 tracks on loop gets kinda repetitive after a while (this is one area Duke wins bigly with each level in the five official episodes having its own unique music)

[NNC]

I don't think it's just nostalgia to rate Duke higher than the other games. Ion Maiden is not nostalgia at all, but it looks visibly better so far than most Build games.

I really agree with RunningDuke about the demos. The Dark Side demo looked awesome, I can even see they recorded it many times to have this cinematic experience. I always play this level to mimic the demo, like try to blow the crack next to the train by throwing a pipebomb into the train (rarely succeeds, but when I do, it feels satisfying ), or let slimers eat Enforcers (and even kill some before the rest can do it), and other autistic stuff. In Flood Zone I always throw a couple of shrink rays towards the octas, like in the demo.

On the other hand, the V1.5 demos were bad. Freeway started out OK, but it ended abruptly, and honestly, I never cared about the other two. They were all half baked attempts from the devs.

The Birth episode is indeed a mixed bag. I still think that only Derelict follow the classic design formula, which is close to the classic episode 1 and 2 style. Duke Burger and Going Postal are good as well, and have classic moments too (the buring secret area in GP felt like episode 1 or Freeway for example), but they still have those Birth type of jokes and goofiness that didn't age too well. The rest of the maps are just OK (although I have some soft spot for It's Impossible, even with its obvious flaws). Most of them felt like just afterthought work and glued from previously made leftovers with unnecessary goofy details added. I utterly detest Babe Land and The Queen for some reason. The former I still consider the low point of Blum, especially how good this stuff could have been considering the real life version it copied.

As for Redneck Rampage, disgusting might be a harsh word, but hard to describe better a game, when fecal areas and fecal enemies are regular part of the game. I wanted to like this game, but gave up.

[Phredreeke]

On the subject of The Birth:

I personally like all the spy show references Randy put into It's Impossible, thought maybe it should have been placed later in the episode due to its complexity.
Duke Burger is a fave of mine. It just feels Duke-ish.
Shop n Bag, meh. Kinda generic.
Babe Land, nice concept but could have been done better (compare with Mr. Splashy's in Duke Caribbean)
Pigsty is probably my favourite level in the episode. Again, while It's Impossible put in spy show references, Pigsty put in nods to crime shows and movies.
As for Area 51 it's very good for a secret level. The DN64 devs made a good choice in dropping (no pun intended) Tier Drops in favor of this.
Going Postal. I love the music (Pissed Office Box) but the level doesn't do it for me.
XXX-Stacy has potential, but ends up feeling like they just took two unfinished levels and glued them together.
Critical Mass is pretty ambitious, thought not a level I'd count among my favourites.
Derelict, honestly not too big on this one.
The Queen... OH GOD WHY?

[NNC]

Mr. Splashy's is my least favourite Caribbean map tbh. It's highly confusing, the texturing for me feels like bland, and those one time screams are just dull. I mean if those people are using those rides, why can't you see them? Or were they baby aliens?

IMHO this amusement park stuff was a lot better in Blood's Dark Carnival. Those minigames really helped the atmosphere.

[FistMarine]

Nancsi, on 28 August 2018 - 01:07 AM, said:

I don't think it's just nostalgia to rate Duke higher than the other games. Ion Maiden is not nostalgia at all, but it looks visibly better so far than most Build games.

I really agree with RunningDuke about the demos. The Dark Side demo looked awesome, I can even see they recorded it many times to have this cinematic experience. I always play this level to mimic the demo, like try to blow the crack next to the train by throwing a pipebomb into the train (rarely succeeds, but when I do, it feels satisfying ), or let slimers eat Enforcers (and even kill some before the rest can do it), and other autistic stuff. In Flood Zone I always throw a couple of shrink rays towards the octas, like in the demo.

On the other hand, the V1.5 demos were bad. Freeway started out OK, but it ended abruptly, and honestly, I never cared about the other two. They were all half baked attempts from the devs.

The Birth episode is indeed a mixed bag. I still think that only Derelict follow the classic design formula, which is close to the classic episode 1 and 2 style. Duke Burger and Going Postal are good as well, and have classic moments too (the buring secret area in GP felt like episode 1 or Freeway for example), but they still have those Birth type of jokes and goofiness that didn't age too well. The rest of the maps are just OK (although I have some soft spot for It's Impossible, even with its obvious flaws). Most of them felt like just afterthought work and glued from previously made leftovers with unnecessary goofy details added. I utterly detest Babe Land and The Queen for some reason. The former I still consider the low point of Blum, especially how good this stuff could have been considering the real life version it copied.

As for Redneck Rampage, disgusting might be a harsh word, but hard to describe better a game, when fecal areas and fecal enemies are regular part of the game. I wanted to like this game, but gave up.

Ah, I see what you mean. And yeah the demos in versions 1.4 and 1.5 were disappointing to me. The thing is in version 1.4 there were different demos too (slightly different compared to 1.5, although played on exact same map) but they aren't too much different and they aren't memorable at all. The same kinda applies to the Doom engine games. I preferred for example the Doom 1.666 shareware demos over the registered ones (also used in ultimate doom) because one of the demos in shareware 1.666 was a COOP demo and was much more fun, though the other demos are fine (except that 4th one added in ultimate doom, it's short and horrible, despite the level being frustratingly hard). In Doom 2 1.666, the first demo was longer, better and showed more action. Later in 1.9, the demo was re-recorded (same map) and the player plays worse, takes more damage and as result dies quickly. The second and third demo remain the same, thankfully. For more details regarding demos of the other Doom versions, as well as Heretic and Hexen demos, visit this page: https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Demo (sorry for off-topic!)
I also sort of wish SW 1.2 had demos playing in background too. I heard shareware versions 1.0 and 1.1 have demos playing in background but these versions don't load at all in DOSBox 0.74!

I always wondered why the expansion packs are worse than the original game. As it also applies to Ultimate Doom's E4, Heretic's E4 and E5 (and hidden E6!), Master Levels for Doom 2 and Final Doom. For example the E4 in Doom, is not only very difficult but also a bunch of different mappers worked on it, the style is inconsistent (E4M1, E4M2 and E4M6 are way too hard for example, while rest range from easy to medium difficulty) and there is no map on intermission screen like the first 3 episodes that showed a map with the progress. The same applies to Heretic, the extra episodes lack a map on the intermission screen and are a lot more difficult (mostly just the first level due to lack of ammo and health). I will not comment on ML and FD as I think I have talked enough about Doom engine games.

Speaking of The Birth, I also didn't like that much Duke's humor in this episode compared to the awesome humor from the first 3 episodes, though there are some good lines too (for example I like all the lines said when you blow up an enemy). As for maps, Duke Burger and Derelict are my favorites in this episode. Going Postal is a good map too (with a memorable horde of enemies at end of level, although a bit out of place for Duke3D). I didn't find Shop-n-Bag and Babe Land too bad but both can be confusing for first playthrough. I remember back in 2008 on my first playthrough of E4 where I got stuck in Shop-n-Bag as I didn't know I had to shoot the button on ceiling through the gate after using the yellow card. And I also remember getting stuck in Babe Land too, although I remembered at that time from watching a speedrun of E4 that you had to shoot the second and fourth target to open the window and grab the red card. Pigsty, XXX-Stacy and Critical Mass are all ok, though there are some issues with Critical Mass present in original version where it was possible to get stuck in coop if you died after the building collapsed, and should have been spotted and fixed before game was released (it was fixed on XBLA version). I didn't like Randy's maps as I said above (maybe only Area 51) and it would have been better if they got released as user maps and instead we got the remaining slots filled with more maps by Allen Blum.

I have the same feelings about Redneck Rampage. The game relies too much on this kind of humor and even if it might be funny at first, it loses its appeal quickly. Combine the shitty humor with the shitty gameplay and shitty level design and you've got a really shitty package! (no pun intended).

I agree that in some ways Blood is better than SW (for example the levels in Blood feel better designed than the ones in SW) but I can't say yet until I played the main game.

[NNC]

RunningDuke, on 28 August 2018 - 08:39 AM, said:

Ah, I see what you mean. And yeah the demos in versions 1.4 and 1.5 were disappointing to me. The thing is in version 1.4 there were different demos too (slightly different compared to 1.5, although played on exact same map) but they aren't too much different and they aren't memorable at all. The same kinda applies to the Doom engine games. I preferred for example the Doom 1.666 shareware demos over the registered ones (also used in ultimate doom) because one of the demos in shareware 1.666 was a COOP demo and was much more fun, though the other demos are fine (except that 4th one added in ultimate doom, it's short and horrible, despite the level being frustratingly hard). In Doom 2 1.666, the first demo was longer, better and showed more action. Later in 1.9, the demo was re-recorded (same map) and the player plays worse, takes more damage and as result dies quickly. The second and third demo remain the same, thankfully. For more details regarding demos of the other Doom versions, as well as Heretic and Hexen demos, visit this page: https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Demo (sorry for off-topic!)
I also sort of wish SW 1.2 had demos playing in background too. I heard shareware versions 1.0 and 1.1 have demos playing in background but these versions don't load at all in DOSBox 0.74!

I always wondered why the expansion packs are worse than the original game. As it also applies to Ultimate Doom's E4, Heretic's E4 and E5 (and hidden E6!), Master Levels for Doom 2 and Final Doom. For example the E4 in Doom, is not only very difficult but also a bunch of different mappers worked on it, the style is inconsistent (E4M1, E4M2 and E4M6 are way too hard for example, while rest range from easy to medium difficulty) and there is no map on intermission screen like the first 3 episodes that showed a map with the progress. The same applies to Heretic, the extra episodes lack a map on the intermission screen and are a lot more difficult (mostly just the first level due to lack of ammo and health). I will not comment on ML and FD as I think I have talked enough about Doom engine games.

Speaking of The Birth, I also didn't like that much Duke's humor in this episode compared to the awesome humor from the first 3 episodes, though there are some good lines too (for example I like all the lines said when you blow up an enemy). As for maps, Duke Burger and Derelict are my favorites in this episode. Going Postal is a good map too (with a memorable horde of enemies at end of level, although a bit out of place for Duke3D). I didn't find Shop-n-Bag and Babe Land too bad but both can be confusing for first playthrough. I remember back in 2008 on my first playthrough of E4 where I got stuck in Shop-n-Bag as I didn't know I had to shoot the button on ceiling through the gate after using the yellow card. And I also remember getting stuck in Babe Land too, although I remembered at that time from watching a speedrun of E4 that you had to shoot the second and fourth target to open the window and grab the red card. Pigsty, XXX-Stacy and Critical Mass are all ok, though there are some issues with Critical Mass present in original version where it was possible to get stuck in coop if you died after the building collapsed, and should have been spotted and fixed before game was released (it was fixed on XBLA version). I didn't like Randy's maps as I said above (maybe only Area 51) and it would have been better if they got released as user maps and instead we got the remaining slots filled with more maps by Allen Blum.

I have the same feelings about Redneck Rampage. The game relies too much on this kind of humor and even if it might be funny at first, it loses its appeal quickly. Combine the shitty humor with the shitty gameplay and shitty level design and you've got a really shitty package! (no pun intended).

I agree that in some ways Blood is better than SW (for example the levels in Blood feel better designed than the ones in SW) but I can't say yet until I played the main game.

Speaking of Doom, I might be in the minority, but I actually like episode 4 a lot. I think it's a proper upgrade of the trainweck leveldesign in episode 3 (Paendemonium is the only good level in episode 3 IMHO, and if I recall, that was made by Tom Hall except for the hellish textures). Even the Spiderboss is a lot better in episode 4, than in episode 3. Dis shouldn't have been greenlighted by quality controls honestly. Not that Unto the Cruel is that much harder, but at least there are some effort put into the level. The difficult maps are the first two and the sixth ones, but Hell Beneath is a bit better if you play on Hurt me... skill (which my pussy self usually do), and the other two are a bit on the trial and error side, they will get significantly easier if you find the secrets and the ways to play the levels.

But other than that, I agree. Honestly, I never played Master Levels, and I utterly disliked Plutonia, I don't get what's all the praise there.

[FistMarine]

There's a few levels in E4 that are really good but I just disliked that the difficulty is very inconsistent, with first 2 levels and 6th one being the hardest, while the 4th one is the easiest and the rest are mostly medium to hard difficulty levels. So the difficulty is all over the place in this episode, you can see they rushed it a bit. I can't comment much on episodes 2 and 3 considering that as a kid I only had the shareware version and the first episode is the one I remember the most, which was the best. It wasn't until a few years ago I played all classic Doom games (on UV difficulty but not 100% completion) and from my experience, while I didn't find E2 and E3 anything special, E4, Master Levels and Final Doom were a mixed bag but mostly because of the way they were thought out (TNT for example was supposed to be released for free but ID software picked up the project and sold as commercial product as first half of Final Doom). I mean there's mostly good parts into each but what I remember disliking about Final Doom was that the level design in TNT was average (some levels were awful and there were also two frustrating ones, such as The Stronghold and Mount Pain) and Plutonia had better designed compared to TNT (although the TNT soundtrack was really good, while Plutonia just reused music from Doom 1 and 2) but I also disliked sometimes the overuse of chaingunners and revenants, it felt cheap at times but otherwise, it didn't feel too difficult to me if I planned my route.

These days I'm actually playing through the Ultimate Doom in DOSBox on UV (100% everything) and so far I have done episode 1 and I'm halfway through episode 2. Once I reach and finish with E4, I will be able to describe how each episode and level felt to me, compared to the memories from 5-6 years ago. Maybe I will have better luck this time in E4, considering I will go for all secrets (except those that you can't get without noclip in two maps from E4, which is not an issue in the original 3 episodes, although 2 other levels in Doom 2 have the same problem with some inaccessible secrets in maps 15 and 27).

Now let's talk about the Duke3D addons (DC, Caribbean and NW) and even Plug N Pray. Which do you think is the best and worst level for each? I know there was a similar topic but I just wanted to go back on topic as I think I talked too much about Doom in this topic.

[NNC]

Let me guess...

Duke it out in DC
Best: Nuked Files (the most classic style of all maps, although Smithsonian deserves credit for a vintage Bob Travis experience)
Worst: probably Memorial Service (not for the design, but for the dull gameplay... most enemies appear at the start of the map, while the ending is about making a shitty puzzle twice in a row without visiting aliens). The same problem is there in the opening level, but at least it's not annoying.

Caribbean:
Best: Alien Remains (I love the map's layout, design, shading, the way you can get outside... the boss area is remade for the worse though, it would be better as a classic alien green area)... honorable mentions to Full House, Lost Lagoon, Wavemistress.
Worst: Mr Splashy's easily

Nuclear Winter:
The less said about this is the better. Christmas Village is OK.

Plug 'n' Pray:
Best: Nightmare Zone, and don't care what you pussies think about it. Trackside Tragedy and Gates Motel are also good, despite some confusing moments.
Worst: the godawful Alien Rendezvous... it's _se.map quality with unbalanced hitscan monsters.

[Phredreeke]

Nancsi, on 28 August 2018 - 03:52 AM, said:

IMHO this amusement park stuff was a lot better in Blood's Dark Carnival. Those minigames really helped the atmosphere.

Dark Carnival is tied with Overlooked Hotel as my favourite Blood level.

RunningDuke, on 28 August 2018 - 12:11 PM, said:

Now let's talk about the Duke3D addons (DC, Caribbean and NW) and even Plug N Pray. Which do you think is the best and worst level for each? I know there was a similar topic but I just wanted to go back on topic as I think I talked too much about Doom in this topic.

Nuclear Winter would have been better suited as a free mod than a paid expansion. I actually like the concept, and the "storyline" could never have been pulled off nowadays. Screw the abundance of tripbombs though.

Duke Caribbean and Duke it out in DC are both much better. Which one is better is a matter of taste. Caribbean is more "original" in that it has a fairly large amount of original art and its own soundtrack, while DC mostly uses the original games artwork and recycles episode 3's soundtrack. DC has a few more levels (10 vs 8) and some may prefer the expansion's urban setting over the tropical resort setting of Caribbean. I love Smithsonian Terror, which is a level that seem to divide the fandom

[FistMarine]

I agree that NW should have been released as a free mod instead of commercial expansion, along with other bad stuff such as Duke Zone 1 and 2, Duke Xtreme, etc. I also liked the concept of NW but I wish it was executed a lot better. I know there were a few Christmas themed projects released throughout the years and those are a lot better than NW.

I found the overuse of tripbombs in NW annoying too. There are some levels that have tripbombs at every corner possible, so you need to take it slowly to avoid getting blown up.

I also consider both DC and Caribbean to be good and personally I don't have a favorite level between these two, they are all good. They can get a bit confusing at times, especially DC with Smithsonian Terror level but at least they are very well designed. And yeah Caribbean is the more original addon, while DC feels like a typical Duke3D episode as it reuses E3 soundtrack (replaces E3) and includes new art but that's pretty much it. And while it's true that DC has more levels in the episode, Caribbean actually has more levels overall as there are additional 4 DukeMatch levels included (they are placed on episode 2 slot, I believe).

[axl]

I would rate Duke Nukem 3D the best of the build games. Best episode is cleary episode 1. I used to prefer episode 3, but it has too many flaws. Still classic though.

Blood is a VERY CLOSE second. Again, episode 1 is the best one. Although episode 2 and 3 are really good also. It goes a bit downhill in episode 4 where there isn't much coherency in its level design.

Shadow Warrior is a mixed bag in my opinion. It just feels too much as Duke gone Asian. And Lo Wang just isn't that funny. I also don't like the episode structure... Episode 1 has only 4 levels and episode 2 has 18 ?? That just feels weird.

[Phredreeke]

Episode 1 is the "shareware episode", with the rest of the game in episode 2.

RunningDuke, on 28 August 2018 - 08:39 AM, said:

I also sort of wish SW 1.2 had demos playing in background too. I heard shareware versions 1.0 and 1.1 have demos playing in background but these versions don't load at all in DOSBox 0.74!

Which reminds me...

(from ICD's SW port to eduke32)

[Sanek]

RunningDuke, on 29 August 2018 - 11:34 AM, said:

I agree that NW should have been released as a free mod instead of commercial expansion, along with other bad stuff such as Duke Zone 1 and 2, Duke Xtreme, etc. I also liked the concept of NW but I wish it was executed a lot better. I know there were a few Christmas themed projects released throughout the years and those are a lot better than NW.

I found the overuse of tripbombs in NW annoying too. There are some levels that have tripbombs at every corner possible, so you need to take it slowly to avoid getting blown up.

I also consider both DC and Caribbean to be good and personally I don't have a favorite level between these two, they are all good. They can get a bit confusing at times, especially DC with Smithsonian Terror level but at least they are very well designed. And yeah Caribbean is the more original addon, while DC feels like a typical Duke3D episode as it reuses E3 soundtrack (replaces E3) and includes new art but that's pretty much it. And while it's true that DC has more levels in the episode, Caribbean actually has more levels overall as there are additional 4 DukeMatch levels included (they are placed on episode 2 slot, I believe).

Duke Carribean is the best expansion for Duke, while DC is just bland in my opinion. Duke Xtreme is big step below, but I guess people enjoyed it back in the day because of it's funny features.
I actually enjoyed NW back when I was a kid, but I undersand why people consider it the worst expansion of them all. The only reason that NW, Duke!Zone I and 2 was released as a commercial products is because Sillysoft had a very good relationship with WizardWorks by the time when Duke3D came out - before that, Sillysoft made frontends and packaking for all these D!Zone for Doom shovelware collections. Duke3D was a popular game, and WizardWorks wanter something Duke-related fast and on budget, and Sillysoft was there to provide it.

[NNC]

The general problem in Duke it out in DC is the lack of dynamic gameplay. It seemed Travis enjoyed recreating Washington in his own style, which is good, but gameplay was an afterthought in most maps. The most obvious flaw is the monster placement. In Hell to the Chief and Memorial Service you visit some flying troopers and many LA Pigcops early in the level, and as you progress from outside to inside, the enemies are getting rarer and rarer to the level, that in both levels there are almost nothing to fight after getting the second keycard of the 3 available. It got slightly better later on, but even in Dread October, there were just a few Commanders left after cleaning up the cramped submarine.

The only map with a different approach was Top Secret, where the Aztec snippet was kinda dull and out of place (I mean you time travel for a simple keycard that is hidden there to return to the original area), and the Warp Factor level of unfairly place sentry drones also didn't help.

Another thing I missed from DC were some nice extra Duketalk related to Washington jokes (even from the imposter who did the voice acting in Caribbean), which should have elevated the atmosphere further. Some additional sound effect would have helped as well. IIRC even the street ambience sounds were screwed, they were 1 time sounds instead of random ambiences. Pigcops also should have dressed differently, Man in Black style for example (well, they looked still better there than in Amsterdam or Moscow).

[MetHy]

I made videos of my 3 favourite maps in RR Rides Again, pistolstart/psychobilly. Maybe this can convince the people in here these aren't such bad games:

[Phredreeke]

Refinery is awesome but no Gamblin' Boat?