[Aleks]

The Watchtower, on 18 August 2021 - 09:59 AM, said:

I know my Blum obsession is a meme on this forum, but is it really just me who thinks he is as outstanding as Romero?

I've never been really interested in Doom, but I know what kind of figure Romero is - but in comparison to Shadow Warrior level design (and what I've seen of Blood - admittedly I haven't really played it enough to judge), what both Blum and Levelord did with Build engine is on a whole different, much higher level. So in a way, I agree. Also I would really love to see either Blum or Levelord make a user map for Duke 3D, but not "commercial" kind of maps - just let them really flow free with their ideas, without deadlines or worrying about easy access threshold, using all the benefits of the newest EDuke releases.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Aleks, on 18 August 2021 - 10:35 AM, said:

I've never been really interested in Doom, but I know what kind of figure Romero is - but in comparison to Shadow Warrior level design (and what I've seen of Blood - admittedly I haven't really played it enough to judge),

What the fuck. At least get on Blood ASAP.

[NightFright]

Blood is the pinnacle of the Build games. I still cannot believe they gave it just half a page in my PC gaming mag back in the days, saying it's shit and without soul. They had never been more wrong about any game ever.

[MrFlibble]

Ninety-Six, on 17 August 2021 - 01:37 PM, said:

Second, Romero probably has a bit of a personal attachment to the original texture set, seeing as he was there when they were created. And third, Romero strikes me as the kind of designer that prefers autonomy. I think he would only want to involve outsiders for the purposes of playtesting and the like, as opposed to working on the thing itself be it level design or art.

I had all these thoughts myself, but didn't Jimmy make the MIDI pack for Sigil, with Romero's consent/approval? I had the impression that he (Romero) was gravitating more towards community collaboration or at least working in touch with the community lately. It could be a nice move to actually use some community textures or some other assets, at least it seems like that to me.

I also do not think that anyone would consider the use of any new textures as compromising the original set, or deviating from the spirit of the base game.

New textures are easy to add to PWADs, and allow to create new objects with level geometry for which no suitable textures are found in the original set.

Also if you forget OTEX -- it was just an example, although I had an impression that it was a major community contribution, along with the 25th anniversary megawad that used them, -- there are quite a few community made textures which are either directly based on vanilla textures, or are in basically the same visual style. Of the variety that, if put in a vanilla-textured map, only a hardcore player with a keen eye would notice the addition.

[ReaperAA]

MrFlibble, on 19 August 2021 - 07:47 AM, said:

Also if you forget OTEX -- it was just an example, although I had an impression that it was a major community contribution, along with the 25th anniversary megawad that used them, -- there are quite a few community made textures which are either directly based on vanilla textures, or are in basically the same visual style. Of the variety that, if put in a vanilla-textured map, only a hardcore player with a keen eye would notice the addition.

Yeah. If there is a desire for vanilla-ish but extended texture pack (as opposed to something completely unique like OTEX), then there is CC4-Tex.

[NNC]

Aleks, on 18 August 2021 - 10:35 AM, said:

I've never been really interested in Doom, but I know what kind of figure Romero is - but in comparison to Shadow Warrior level design (and what I've seen of Blood - admittedly I haven't really played it enough to judge), what both Blum and Levelord did with Build engine is on a whole different, much higher level. So in a way, I agree. Also I would really love to see either Blum or Levelord make a user map for Duke 3D, but not "commercial" kind of maps - just let them really flow free with their ideas, without deadlines or worrying about easy access threshold, using all the benefits of the newest EDuke releases.

Your opinion is probably controversial these days, but I wholeheartedly agree. Blood might have some interesting weapons and monsters (gilbeast underwater is a legitimate scare) and a well thought out gameplay balance (if we kindly ignore the cultist accuracy that makes episode 1 harder than it should be), but the level design is ridiculously simple, z axis, room over room are barely used, texturing is bland (palette doesn't help), and very few levels are standing out as a recognizable place. Even the acclaimed Overlooked Hotel is barely different to the Shining map after it. I honestly can't even tell the difference between a Wilson and a Hubbard map, only noticed that Kilstrom was involved in the more interesting maps.

SW is better IMHO, Keith Schuler brought some knowledge learnt from Duke mappers, and created maps like Bath House, Floating Fortress or Water Torture. But the average mean was well below Duke's average.

Doom's and Doom 2's design was hampered by strict deadlines, but it was clear that Romero created the maps that truly defined this game. Sigil had minor issues, like the Baron vs peashooter encounters, but it showed Romero's brilliance as a designer. The blackout caco encounter in E5M6 is one of my favourite gaming set piece ever. It legitimately made the red tomatoes as fearsome hell creatures.

Russell Meakim, who designed half of NRFTL and the criminally underrated Redemption of the Slain is a great match to his talent though.

[NNC]

I would be surprised if Romero uses OTEX for his maps. It fucked up Doom's classic palette to start with, and doesn't work well with classic monsters. If Romero wants something new, he should go with GZDoom effects, slopes, dynamic lights, auto saves, dynamic soundtrack, scripted encounters.

[Aristotle Gumball]

NightFright, on 18 August 2021 - 11:51 AM, said:

Blood is the pinnacle of the Build games. I still cannot believe they gave it just half a page in my PC gaming mag back in the days, saying it's shit and without soul. They had never been more wrong about any game ever.

I'd say Blood has more substance than basically any other shooter of its time that didn't really have much of a story. There's a real depth to the world, art style, sound design, etc. Love the anachronistic Wild West style with more futuristic elements (Tesla cannon, etc). It's like they condensed the period from 1870 to 1940 into one era. That isn't to say it's a perfect game, but yeah, basically the peak of Build for me. Duke 3D of course is more important and iconic, but Blood sure beats SW I think.

[Phredreeke]

The Watchtower, on 19 August 2021 - 09:09 AM, said:

room over room are barely used

Wut?

[NNC]

Not in a complex way like in Duke. Blood and SW used a more sophisticated Build engine, but AFAIK they mostly relied on the floor "mirrors" like in the shipwreck level, the layouts were much simpler. But I have never analyzed the levels deeply, so I can be wrong, it was just an impression.

Btw. I think Death Wish has updated the game's design in every possible aspects. Those levels looked mighty, and it's on my shortlist to play through it once finally.

[ReaperAA]

The Watchtower, on 19 August 2021 - 09:14 AM, said:

I would be surprised if Romero uses OTEX for his maps. It fucked up Doom's classic palette to start with, and doesn't work well with classic monsters. If Romero wants something new, he should go with GZDoom effects, slopes, dynamic lights, auto saves, dynamic soundtrack, scripted encounters.

Correction. The palette is not part of OTEX. Its just that some mappers tend to make their own palette (usually by desaturating the inky blues)\

Also again I disagree with OTEX not working well with classic monster. I think it works well.

[NNC]

Ahh, this Jeez-ass guy is thricefucked in disguise.

[Aristotle Gumball]

And your name used to be Nancy, but you have since detransitioned.

[NNC]

I give you a free pass on this one as you're not supposed to understand the relatively confusing hungarian spelling.

[LakiSoft]

But ain't Hungarians and Estonians ugro brothers? So these languages should share some similarities?

Here's some hungarian spelling rules:

s - is actually pronounced as "sh"
sz - is actually pronounced as "s"
cs - is actually pronounced as "ch"

Although this doesn't necessarily means Estonian follow same rules.

[Aristotle Gumball]

You could've looked it up on Wikipedia. Short answer: no, Estonian does not follow the same rules. The "Finno" part of Finno-Ugric really marks the difference between Hungarian & Estonian.

[NNC]

Gingis Khan, on 21 August 2021 - 01:15 AM, said:

But ain't Hungarians and Estonians ugro brothers? So these languages should share some similarities?

Here's some hungarian spelling rules:

s - is actually pronounced as "sh"
sz - is actually pronounced as "s"
cs - is actually pronounced as "ch"

Although this doesn't necessarily means Estonian follow same rules.

Yep, the cs in my old nickname gave huge confusion here. It was still a shitty nickname, but not hungarian Nancy.

But enough of that: I'm curious if Romero adds any of his old Sigil levels with more varied beastiary in his new megawad. That would speed up the progress a lot as only 23 levels are needed to add, not 32. But the chances are low as he declared it as the fifth episode of OG Doom.

[MrFlibble]

Outtagum, on 15 August 2021 - 12:09 PM, said:

Demo here: https://hellforge-st...the-age-of-hell

I watched Mr. Icarus' review and while the demo indeed looks quite impressive, it also feels a little bit too derivative to my tastes. Considering that it is still running on the Doom engine, what are the chances that these overly obvious similarities, like the Revenant's design that is almost a complete carbon copy, could evoke the ire of the copyright holders?

[William Gee]

A small 4 level wad I have been working on.

Attached thumbnail(s)

• 

[ck3D]

The Watchtower, on 19 August 2021 - 10:38 PM, said:

Not in a complex way like in Duke. Blood and SW used a more sophisticated Build engine, but AFAIK they mostly relied on the floor "mirrors" like in the shipwreck level, the layouts were much simpler. But I have never analyzed the levels deeply, so I can be wrong, it was just an impression.

Btw. I think Death Wish has updated the game's design in every possible aspects. Those levels looked mighty, and it's on my shortlist to play through it once finally.

My only direct experience with Blood as a player was always just to try and get as far into episode 1 as possible when I was a kid the few times I did play it and so for a while my grasp on the level design in that game was surface level, but not so long ago I did watch a few playthrough videos (maybe of the expansion packs too, then I couldn't tell you which was which off the top of my head) with paying close attention to the mapping in mind and I was pleasantly surprised in fact. The strong postmodern urban vibes and levels such as Freeway (and obviously Spin Cycle, etc...) aside, I actually saw a lot of smart SOS use (again, may have been in one of the expansion packs) that sort of trumps what Duke 3D did with it on average, and I'm not talking about the 'fake' floor mirror effect. It's very vague but the general impression those Blood videos left me with was of what Duke 3D would have been if Blum had designed all the maps, not because of anything aesthetic but because of the intelligence in the pure 2D layouts and the arrangement of the different floors and rooms. The comparisons kind of stop there though, and maybe we're even saying the same thing if what I'm describing is in fact memories of Death Wish (which is possible as I know I've seen videos of that). But different version of the engine or not, I remember appreciating those points in particular in the level design of Blood maps altogether, but I suspect the darkness of that game (both in terms of tone and color palette) may contribute to masking those qualities a fair bit as everything blends together into the general horror theme, it may be harder for specific traits to stand out. Similarly to what some people say about 'good' video editing for instance, where the best kind supposedly is the one you never actually notice.

[Phredreeke]

What do you mean by "floor mirrors"?

[ck3D]

Phredreeke, on 21 August 2021 - 06:22 PM, said:

What do you mean by "floor mirrors"?

I'm assuming the 'fake'/OG room-over-room involving SE 40+'s.

[Phredreeke]

But SW/Blood don't use sector effectors...

[ck3D]

I have no idea how Blood and SW work, but in Duke 3D there are leftovers of that effect which some people have reproduced before using SE40+'s (I think 40 to 45?). Basically it tells the game to render a sector that's somewhere else in the map in place of a different one to simulate floors down below or up above and so people have drawn parallels with how mirrors function before. From stuff I've read on here, SW is known for using a clean version of the trick in certain levels (about Blood I'm not sure), whereas in Duke 3D it's basically broken which is why no one is using it.

[LakiSoft]

The Watchtower, on 21 August 2021 - 06:51 AM, said:

Yep, the cs in my old nickname gave huge confusion here. It was still a shitty nickname, but not hungarian Nancy.

But enough of that: I'm curious if Romero adds any of his old Sigil levels with more varied beastiary in his new megawad. That would speed up the progress a lot as only 23 levels are needed to add, not 32. But the chances are low as he declared it as the fifth episode of OG Doom.

That sounds like really good idea. Though i think Romero will go on totally new 32 levels. I would personally more like if he put old Sigil as a first cluster of Sigil 2, while adding Doom 2 stuff in old Sigil levels, then making the rest 23 even cooler levels to complete so new, but good old classic experience. But again, as i said, that's unlikely to happen.

[NNC]

William Gee, on 21 August 2021 - 04:32 PM, said:

A small 4 level wad I have been working on.

Is this your first Doom mapset? As it is, I will try it for sure. I got the impression your style would work astonishingly well with Doom 2, and possibly GZDoom effects might be helpful as well.

[NNC]

ck3D, on 21 August 2021 - 05:42 PM, said:

My only direct experience with Blood as a player was always just to try and get as far into episode 1 as possible when I was a kid the few times I did play it and so for a while my grasp on the level design in that game was surface level, but not so long ago I did watch a few playthrough videos (maybe of the expansion packs too, then I couldn't tell you which was which off the top of my head) with paying close attention to the mapping in mind and I was pleasantly surprised in fact. The strong postmodern urban vibes and levels such as Freeway (and obviously Spin Cycle, etc...) aside, I actually saw a lot of smart SOS use (again, may have been in one of the expansion packs) that sort of trumps what Duke 3D did with it on average, and I'm not talking about the 'fake' floor mirror effect. It's very vague but the general impression those Blood videos left me with was of what Duke 3D would have been if Blum had designed all the maps, not because of anything aesthetic but because of the intelligence in the pure 2D layouts and the arrangement of the different floors and rooms. The comparisons kind of stop there though, and maybe we're even saying the same thing if what I'm describing is in fact memories of Death Wish (which is possible as I know I've seen videos of that). But different version of the engine or not, I remember appreciating those points in particular in the level design of Blood maps altogether, but I suspect the darkness of that game (both in terms of tone and color palette) may contribute to masking those qualities a fair bit as everything blends together into the general horror theme, it may be harder for specific traits to stand out. Similarly to what some people say about 'good' video editing for instance, where the best kind supposedly is the one you never actually notice.

Probably I would appreciate them more if I check them in an editor too. But the main impression is still that everything blur into just one giant level. Also thinking about the comment the Blood is an anachronistic game as it uses present day weapons and stuff in XIX century surrounding. Probably that bothers me too. I'm actually in favour of futuristic environments as past already happened. But that's a personal thing.

[NNC]

Shadow Warrior's floor mirrors are the fake room over rooms using a paralaxed mirror(??) sprite. I don't know the details, but when I checked the maps it looked like that way. I guess Blood has similar stuff in it, for example in the shipwreck level you can look into the storage room with the fire key in a very similar way.

[Ninety-Six]

The Watchtower, on 22 August 2021 - 07:51 AM, said:

Is this your first Doom mapset?

2 of the levels in the wad were released before, but he's touched them up a lot since and added two more from scratch.

[William Gee]

The Watchtower, on 22 August 2021 - 07:51 AM, said:

Is this your first Doom mapset? As it is, I will try it for sure. I got the impression your style would work astonishingly well with Doom 2, and possibly GZDoom effects might be helpful as well.

YES and NO. I started 2 of the levels after DooM 2016 was released, but I never finished them and I thought they had disapeard, but I found them on doomworld in beta state, so I have touched them up and added 2 more levels so far.