[ReaperAA]

For those who just want to see what the level looks like, here is a walkthrough by pagb666 (he missed a BFG in one of the secrets though )



Another thing to mention is that this map is intended to be a part of Sigil 2 for Doom 2

[NightFright]

Romero really likes those shootable icons and floor cracks these days. I assume they'll make a custom soundtrack for this again?

[Ninety-Six]

 ReaperAA, on 02 March 2022 - 10:55 PM, said:

Another thing to mention is that this map is intended to be a part of Sigil 2 for Doom 2

So this is basically an "emergency playable preview" then?

[ReaperAA]

 Ninety-Six, on 03 March 2022 - 12:12 AM, said:

So this is basically an "emergency playable preview" then?

Likely I guess. The readme file calls it S2MAP05.

[Ninety-Six]

 ReaperAA, on 03 March 2022 - 12:36 AM, said:

Likely I guess. The readme file calls it S2MAP05.

I feel better about being unable to play this, then. I don't have the money, and honestly if I did have money I'd donate to brullov instead (though both would be ideal if I had the ability, since the cause outweighs the "product.")

[NightFright]

I bought the map by now, btw. 5 bucks really don't hurt, even if you will get it later for free with the finished megawad, probably. People in Ukraine can really use the money right now.

[Ninety-Six]

 NightFright, on 03 March 2022 - 06:40 AM, said:

5 bucks really don't hurt, even if you will get it later for free with the finished megawad, probably. People in Ukraine can really use the money right now.

I know, but I don't even have five cents I can spare.

[Aristotle Gumball]

 Ninety-Six, on 03 March 2022 - 08:48 AM, said:

I know, but I don't even have five cents I can spare.

Glad everyone's got their priorities straight.

[Ninety-Six]

 Thrice Cursed, on 03 March 2022 - 08:56 AM, said:

Glad everyone's got their priorities straight.

Yeah, which is why I am going to sell this aging dinosaur of a laptop with a failing harddrive that ain't even my property so I can go buy a doom level.

[MusicallyInspired]

I understand all too well the realities of a tight budget.

Nobody should be shamed into paying for charity. You are scum if you are doing that. It's not charity otherwise. And it's everything wrong with what started cancel culture, stigmatized gamergate, and perpetuated all the culture wars in the west right now.

[Aristotle Gumball]

 Ninety-Six, on 03 March 2022 - 09:22 AM, said:

Yeah, which is why I am going to sell this aging dinosaur of a laptop with a failing harddrive that ain't even my property so I can go buy a doom level.

No, I just think it's weird you've mentioned several times now how little money you have, and now you tell me you don't even own some crappy laptop? Why are you posting here every day and not like, trying to gain a skill so you can start making some money? Tbh you're far from the only one. There are some practically homeless people on Duke4. I'd donate if someone started a fundraiser (no joke). Shit's ridiculous.

[Ninety-Six]

 Thrice Cursed, on 03 March 2022 - 09:51 AM, said:

Why are you posting here every day and not like, trying to gain a skill so you can start making some money?

Every last cent I can gain is going towards food and more medical bills than you can scribble a dick on.

I ain't gotta explain myself any more than that to someone whose ass is still sore because of the Outhouse.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Genuinely sorry if that's the case, man. I'm not gonna double down on my stupid joke or anything. Seriously. When I said "gain a skill" I mean in terms of the time sink of writing lengthy posts that I've seen you do several times about gaming bullshit, it wasn't making sense to me, but I get that this might be a genuine joy for you in an otherwise bleak existence.

Also meant what I said about donating to a Duke4 fundraiser. There's like at least 5 people I know who could really use some money.

[ck3D]

I mean what's worse, coming to a message board to write lengthy posts about the games said message board is meant to be about, or coming to a message board to write lengthy posts that are completely unrelated to the supposed function of the place altogether really. This is not even a diss by the way, it's actually arguable, some topics are more important than video games and fundamentally it's in the exchanged off topic that communities really can shine. In both situations I guess it's called a hobby. I wouldn't be so quick to jump to assumptions regarding people I only know so little about. Level design commentary is the only thing I log in on here for (and I know I'm not alone here), from a level designer's perspective feedback like Ninety-Six's is a goldmine and such critical approach I think actually is a skill (some people pay beta testers).

On topic, I think John Romero is the fucking man for doing this. I really should start playing Doom again.

[Ninety-Six]

 Thrice Cursed, on 03 March 2022 - 10:06 AM, said:

but I get that this might be a genuine joy for you in an otherwise bleak existence.

Pretty much that exactly.

Thank you. You are forgiven.

[Aristotle Gumball]

 ck3D, on 03 March 2022 - 10:30 AM, said:

I mean what's worse, coming to a message board to write lengthy posts about the games said message board is supposed to be about, or coming to a message board to write lengthy posts that are completely unrelated to the function of the place altogether really.

Yeah man. I mean you're 100% spot on, lol. As for the assumptions, honestly part of me wants to be attacked I think. But I'll leave that to my therapist to figure out.

Toodles.

[NNC]

Bought the map and hats off to Mr. Romero, awesome idea. Guess, Randy is looking elsewhere now.

The map itself seems like a meaner Tenements/Abandoned Mines, with Sigil stuff thrown in. It seems like this is Romero's third map style (the other two are KDITD style, and the Perfect Hatred/Sigil style). The eye switches and hellish cracks seem a bit out of place though.

Gameplay wise the map starts too heavily for my liking, I adjusted myself to HMP only. Also UV has a nasty archvile trap in the middle, that is not present in HMP.

Great level, can't wait for Sigil 2.

[NightFright]

After playing the level, I don't think it's possibly Romero's best level he ever made. Spaces are a bit cramped, which is not my favorite kind of design. Also, the "eye-shooting" hunt gets a bit tedious at times, especially before the last room where it's a bit hidden away. Basic rule is: "If you can't seem to go on, look for an eye". It's still fair and good for the 15mins of entertainment I had with this, but my impression is it'll do better as part of an entire megawad since it isn't that much as a standalone release.

[NNC]

Yes, it's definitely a megawad level, not a standalone experience like E1M4b and E1M8b.

Btw, removing some stuff (floor cracks, eye switches, a few monsters) to match the limits and gameplay style of the original Doom 2, I can see this level between Tenements and Courtyard in the "city" part of the game.

Also I would love to see Romero creating a big pack of his modern levels: E1M4b and E1M8b (and maybe a few more of the same) as an intro episode, Sigil as the Doom 1 one, and Sigil 2 as the Doom 2 one. I don't think it's not feasible to merge a Doom 1 and Doom 2 episode in the same wad.

[Ninety-Six]

I don't suppose the level comes with any hints as to what the "plot" might be? I know it doesn't matter but I am really curious where Romero is going to take us. The original Sigil slot in pretty cleanly after episode 4, since TFC was a rather "abrupt continuation" which Sigil actually kind of cleaned up and made its finale feel like a finale to Ultimate Doom in all (which Unto The Cruel did not).

By contrast, Doom 2 ties up quite cleanly, and honestly not even Final Doom's campaigns really felt like any kind of proper "extension" of Doom 2's campaign, and more "Doom 2 except it's in space/in the jungle." Not necessarily saying they're badfor that reason, but really only Doom 64 felt like it led us anywhere new.

[NightFright]

My guess would be it's post-Icon of Sin. You thought it was over, but then it turns out the demons cloned Romero's head and they are attacking cities again, blah blah blah. Does it really matter? The curious part will be: Can Romero deliver 32 maps in constant quality? It's his biggest and most ambitious project so far, and I wish him the best for living up to expectations. I expect many maps to be rather on the short side like this one, but I am ready to be surprised. Anyway, it's his chance to do better than the original D2 campaign, which had quite a few underwhelming contributions, so: Fingers crossed!

[NNC]

I'm pretty sure this level will be in the early part of the episode. It has grown on me, already played 3 times, and finally beat it on UV. The ending with the invulnerability is very easy, you can beat the cyberdemons with your BFG, and the barons from distance pose no threat. Actually, the early part of the level is harder, there are lots of chaingunners and shotgunners to beat. I'm not sure if the level was made for mouselook (the original Sigil wasn't), it's recommended to jump down to the pools and beat the bad guys from there.

The secrets were really nice, you can see 3 of the 4 from the main area, that's a bit similar to NRFTL. Also, other than that single archvile, the only Doom2 only monsters here were the chaingunners and the hell knights. Romero was never keen to use revenants, mancubi, arachnotrons or pain elementals.

[MObreck]

 The Watchtower, on 04 March 2022 - 03:29 PM, said:

Also, other than that single archvile, the only Doom2 only monsters here were the chaingunners and the hell knights. Romero was never keen to use revenants, mancubi, arachnotrons or pain elementals.

That can have its own charm when done properly. My personal copy of DOOM is both games packaged into one. I worked in some DOOM2 monsters into the DOOM1 episodes to spice things up, but under rigid rules. I only added a few chaingunners to Episode 1. For Episode 2 only Chaingunners, Hell Knights, Revenants, and an occassional Pain Elemental to replace some of the excessive Pinkys and Cacos. Episode 3 I made more of a free for all but I don't think I added Archviles to any stage.

[NightFright]

My highlight was a Heretic to Doom 2 conversion. With a few adjustments, it's a blast. But I don't mind if Romero is going easy on the D2 bestiary in his maps. I still hate Revenants, Archviles and Pain Elementals passionately. Mostly because they draw all your attention immediately since they are the ones that can cause big trouble otherwise.

[Ninety-Six]

I actually like revenants quite a bit. Honestly it's exactly their ability to turn a fight on its head with their sudden introduction that I like about them (as long as they aren't used in the patented Skillsaw Says Go Fuck Yourself trap).

Archviles I don't mind as long as they're used the way they were designed for. Either as turrets, or very rarely out in the open resurrecting mangeable groups of enemies. In other words, how they were used in vanilla Doom 2 (though I do think Plutonia's "Hunted" is pretty clever). Unfortunately that's usually not how they're used anywhere else...

Agreed full-stop on the Pain Elementals.

[MObreck]

 NightFright, on 04 March 2022 - 03:45 PM, said:

I still hate Revenants, Archviles and Pain Elementals passionately. Mostly because they draw all your attention immediately since they are the ones that can cause big trouble otherwise.

Personally I place Revenants on a much lower annoyance tier than the other two simply because they make such easy infighting fodder. A lot easier to get them distracted killing their fellow monsters and if your get them to fight something at least Hell Knight rank they are toast.

Spam usage of Pain Elementals or Archviles on the other hand can ruin a mapset for me. One of the things that made BTSX bearable for me was my modded version's replacement for the Pain Elementals are a lot less obnoxious to deal with while mixed with other enemy hordes.

[Ninety-Six]

 MObreck, on 04 March 2022 - 04:56 PM, said:

One of the things that made BTSX bearable for me was my modded version's replacement for the Pain Elementals are a lot less obnoxious to deal with while mixed with other enemy hordes.

I would like to inquire about this matter further please go on.

[ReaperAA]

 Ninety-Six, on 04 March 2022 - 05:43 PM, said:

I would like to inquire about this matter further please go on.

An easy way to make pain elementals less annoying is to nerf lost souls (like by reducing their health as some wads do). If you use a ZDoom port, then this can be easily achieved by making a decorate script using SLADE3 and putting following code in the decorate file:

Quote

actor LostSoulNew : LostSoul replaces LostSoul
{
Health 50 // original lost soul has 100 health
}

[NightFright]

Indeed, they gave those Lost Souls far too many HP. It was OK in the first Doom since they were used sparsely. But if you introduce monsters that can spam them, it gets annoying. As a compromise, one could reduce Lost Souls HP only if they originate from a PE. But well, I only played Romero's map on the lower difficulties so far, so there's no issue with that. I read that there's Cyberdemons on UV. That's fun when you have tight spaces everywhere.

[NNC]

Most enemies in Doom have too much HP if you think about it. I really miss more low to mid tier enemies, which need 2-3 shotgun shells, no less, no more. There are the cannon fodders (70 HP or less), the zombies and the imps, and other than lost souls and pinkies, the rest of the squad have at least 300 HP (revenant). And lost soul shouldn't be a mid-tier, it should be a low-tier due to the nature of the enemy.

Pinky is the only enemy which is actually and truly a mid-tier one, like the octabrain, the drone, or even the pigcop and the enforcer in Duke.