Help
Duke4.net
DNF #1
Duke 3D #1
Doom Corner "for all Doom related discussion"
- The Sarien Encounter
-
#3723 Posted 07 July 2020 - 07:29 PM
To be fair, both themes have been edited slightly to fit together musically, but not by much. Prince's themes all share very similar formulae and patterns, though, and I suspect you could get away with giving this treatment to many many many other themes he's composed. I've noticed this about his work since I first played Wolf3D and Doom. You could probably put E1M1 from Wolf3D on top of this too.
- Duke Plus Developer
-
#3724 Posted 07 July 2020 - 07:46 PM
Ninety-Six, on 06 July 2020 - 03:26 AM, said:
I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. I prefer the older way of handling difficulty by way of more numerous and/or powerful opposition. From my experience in shooters that mess with damage values, it tends to make things a bit foggier.
It makes things foggier, but at least as a developer you know it is making the game harder and it's easy to code and test.
Some mechanics in modern games don't go very well with the "add more enemies" approach to difficulty. For example, let's say your character can get life leech or various other buffs that proc on enemy kills, so the net effect of adding more of the easier enemies is to make the game easier. Or imagine how much extra testing would be required in a game like Doom Eternal, with all the interconnected mechanics of resource replenishment.
One thing that the old Duke method struggles with, even without new gameplay mechanics, is boss fights. If you want a 1-on-1 fight, it's gonna be the same difficulty regardless of user setting. The level designer could put in extra enemies based on difficulty, but the boss by itself will still be the difficulty floor. I guess another way to put that is the old approach lends itself to difficulty spikes (this is true across the difficulty setting spectrum, if you think about it, when you consider not just boss fights but any time the map layout dictates the number of enemies that can be present).
#3725 Posted 07 July 2020 - 08:57 PM
Trooper Dan, on 07 July 2020 - 07:46 PM, said:
Some mechanics in modern games don't go very well with the "add more enemies" approach to difficulty. For example, let's say your character can get life leech or various other buffs that proc on enemy kills, so the net effect of adding more of the easier enemies is to make the game easier. Or imagine how much extra testing would be required in a game like Doom Eternal, with all the interconnected mechanics of resource replenishment.
I'm speaking pretty much purely in the games where the only thing you have is your gun, no weird magic effects like that. And as far as Doom Eternal goes... I think it would pretty much balance itself out. Your ammo has a strict cap and the gameplay loop is all about switching between going on the offensive and then pulling back onto the defensive to farm resources. More enemies to farm also means less ammo to go around.
Trooper Dan, on 07 July 2020 - 07:46 PM, said:
One thing that the old Duke method struggles with, even without new gameplay mechanics, is boss fights. If you want a 1-on-1 fight, it's gonna be the same difficulty regardless of user setting. The level designer could put in extra enemies based on difficulty, but the boss by itself will still be the difficulty floor. I guess another way to put that is the old approach lends itself to difficulty spikes (this is true across the difficulty setting spectrum, if you think about it, when you consider not just boss fights but any time the map layout dictates the number of enemies that can be present).
It's true, most bosses stayed the same in these old shooters... except Wolfenstein 3D. Of all games, it was Wolf3D that found a workaround. Depending on your difficulty, it would spawn a modified version of that boss, typically with more health.
It's not perfect as bosses in general do tend to be nothing but bullet sponges in these games, but nonetheless,
#3726 Posted 07 July 2020 - 11:02 PM
It is true that boss fights have never been a strong point in Duke - you can tell the bosses were specifically designed to fit in their original map of theirs and that's it. Thrown into the typical user map setting, unless the set-up is creative the fights themselves get super old real quick. Which is why I don't think they should be just thrown in there like that and a certain scenario or at least environment should be crafted around their encounter, but that's actually hard to pull off as their original behavior can be fucking erratic. You can't squish them with sector tricks (or so I've read), they don't like tight spaces and will usually make it through blocked walls and break sequencing, they hurt themselves if you let them. I've had some originally interesting (or so I thought) ideas for boss arenas for years but always gave up on most of those ideas because of how unpractically and inconsistently they would turn out to actually behave. So there really isn't much to make those encounters interesting but good level design and terrain work, so creativity.
Kind of funny how well-organized groups of mini-Battlelords can make for more interesting encounters. I know they're divisive and should be used wisely too but I think they're one of my favorite enemies in the game, as one of the few than can make for an actual challenge all ranges considered by itself. When you think about it, user map designers have always subconsciously replaced a lot of what could have been proper boss fights with mini-Battlelord encounters just because of how broken the bosses fundamentally are on their own.
Kind of funny how well-organized groups of mini-Battlelords can make for more interesting encounters. I know they're divisive and should be used wisely too but I think they're one of my favorite enemies in the game, as one of the few than can make for an actual challenge all ranges considered by itself. When you think about it, user map designers have always subconsciously replaced a lot of what could have been proper boss fights with mini-Battlelord encounters just because of how broken the bosses fundamentally are on their own.
#3727 Posted 08 July 2020 - 09:49 AM
After a long time, it's time to play some good old Doom! I know I said a while ago that I will play Master Levels and Final Doom but until playing the official stuff again, I decided to go with some random wads, the wad I chose for now is Doom the Way id Did using Chocolate Doom 3.0.1, playing with keyboard controls (arrow keys) on UV skill and getting 100% in every level. I'm on second level right now and will continue another time.
Also I have read a couple of posts on previous page and I understand the frustrations regarding difficulty in certain Doom wads, so I agree with Ninety-Six and The Watchtower when comes to certain maps that go into slaughter territory and have a lot of cheap insta kill traps and ruin the experience of said wad. Also good point ck3D with the Duke3d bosses in user maps.
With that said I disagree when comes with saying that high quality wads like DTWID series, Ancient Aliens, Valiant, Eviternity, etc suck because of difficulty or other reasons. I don't think it's fair to judge the entire wad just because of a couple of unfair maps later in the wad. Yeah I know for example Scythe has a weird difficulty curve, starting out really easy and then going into slaughter territory later on but I don't think the wad should be rated low just because of last few maps. I know I haven't played DTWID wads and Scythe since LONG time (while I never played AA, Eviternity, etc) but I thought these are all high quality releases and cacowards well deserved, especially when compared to the majority of Doom wads released that aren't anything special. The only wads I simply don't get why are often praised (even if done in ironic way) are garbage like nuts series, The Sky May Be and wow.wad. Yeah I know they are joke wads but they suck and shouldn't be rated 5 stars, especially when I have seen decent wads or even classics like Memento Mori series and Requiem getting less stars just because of a few bad maps. Also yeah I stand by my point that nuts wad is one of the worst wads ever made and yes I have played it a few times in past (mostly in ZDoom source port, since nuts series were made for zdoom, at least nuts 2 and nuts 3), all you have to do is collect invulnerability and jump on monsters' heads and go to the exit (the game will start to lag at end, so press switch quickly before invulnerability runs out). It is pointless to kill the monsters and even if you do to try, you will not have enough ammo to kill the remaining cybers (in nuts and nuts 2).
I can't wait soon to play a lot more wads and form my own opinion instead of having to look at YouTube videos when comes to certain wads. I can see myself hating some maps in Ancient Aliens for example but it doesn't take away the fact that the maps are rather well designed, it's just I wish that mappers don't go overboard into full slaughter territory.
Anyway here's a few DTWID screens for now.
Also I have read a couple of posts on previous page and I understand the frustrations regarding difficulty in certain Doom wads, so I agree with Ninety-Six and The Watchtower when comes to certain maps that go into slaughter territory and have a lot of cheap insta kill traps and ruin the experience of said wad. Also good point ck3D with the Duke3d bosses in user maps.
With that said I disagree when comes with saying that high quality wads like DTWID series, Ancient Aliens, Valiant, Eviternity, etc suck because of difficulty or other reasons. I don't think it's fair to judge the entire wad just because of a couple of unfair maps later in the wad. Yeah I know for example Scythe has a weird difficulty curve, starting out really easy and then going into slaughter territory later on but I don't think the wad should be rated low just because of last few maps. I know I haven't played DTWID wads and Scythe since LONG time (while I never played AA, Eviternity, etc) but I thought these are all high quality releases and cacowards well deserved, especially when compared to the majority of Doom wads released that aren't anything special. The only wads I simply don't get why are often praised (even if done in ironic way) are garbage like nuts series, The Sky May Be and wow.wad. Yeah I know they are joke wads but they suck and shouldn't be rated 5 stars, especially when I have seen decent wads or even classics like Memento Mori series and Requiem getting less stars just because of a few bad maps. Also yeah I stand by my point that nuts wad is one of the worst wads ever made and yes I have played it a few times in past (mostly in ZDoom source port, since nuts series were made for zdoom, at least nuts 2 and nuts 3), all you have to do is collect invulnerability and jump on monsters' heads and go to the exit (the game will start to lag at end, so press switch quickly before invulnerability runs out). It is pointless to kill the monsters and even if you do to try, you will not have enough ammo to kill the remaining cybers (in nuts and nuts 2).
I can't wait soon to play a lot more wads and form my own opinion instead of having to look at YouTube videos when comes to certain wads. I can see myself hating some maps in Ancient Aliens for example but it doesn't take away the fact that the maps are rather well designed, it's just I wish that mappers don't go overboard into full slaughter territory.
Anyway here's a few DTWID screens for now.
#3728 Posted 08 July 2020 - 02:16 PM
RunningDuke, on 08 July 2020 - 09:49 AM, said:
With that said I disagree when comes with saying that high quality wads like ... Ancient Aliens... I don't think it's fair to judge the entire wad just because of a couple of unfair maps later in the wad.
Unfortunately it isn't a couple of unfair maps near the end of the wad in AA's case. It's the entire ride. Cheap shots after cheap shots because the mappers couldn't be assed to actually balance the encounters for the non-clairvoyant. They only cared about making it look pretty and the actual game part was an afterthought.
I really want to stress this point. It's not about "being too hard." Bullshit is not on the difficulty scale above hard. It isn't. It's entirely separate from difficulty, because real challenge and bullshit are two entirely different things. Legitimate difficulty comes from having a very small or completely nonexistent margin for error. Real challenge is about facing down immeasurable odds that you can get through with good decision making and execution on the fly.
Difficulty is not walking into a room and then dying from an archvile behind a fake wall because you have no idea where the hell you're supposed to stand to be out of sight. Challenge is not going against the definition of insanity and actually getting a different result because that's the one that's required to progress. Hard is not being forced to memorize where every single fatal beginner's trap is.
They are not the same thing. The latter turns it into pure trial and error and luckshit. It basically forces you to save scum. Real challenge, on the other hand, can theoretically be done on your first try (without dumb luck) if you're good enough. Whether someone is or isn't is irrevelant, as long as it's possible.
And the vast majority of doom wads aren't. They expect you to memorize their shitty traps, to pray for good RNG (how many times are you forced to fight an archvile without cover hoping to god he flinches?), and to totally lick the boots of whoever made it just because they look pretty.
I'm sorry, but after years and years and years of having to put up with extremely poor level design, I don't have tolerance for it anymore. All of it got wasted when I played Ancient Aliens all the way through to the start of episode 3.
I want to stress this too: you have no idea how badly I wanted to like Ancient Aliens. It has everything I could want: beautiful neon scenery, an absolutely phenomenal soundtrack, and an alleged high difficulty. I start it up, and literally ten seconds later I'm dead. Not because I failed to perform something. Not because I couldn't develop a reasonable plan of action. But because I followed the level's signposts, doing everything it wanted me to, just so it could shoot a rocket in my face. I died because skillsaw wanted me to die. That's it. That's the only reason I died.
And the whole rest of the wad was like that. Either instantly-fatal beginner's traps or, as I said above, a roulette wheel with guns. I pushed all the way through to episode 3 before I couldn't take the player abuse anymore.
And the worst part? I kept going back. Over and over, every time convincing myself that it had to have been my fault. I was doing something wrong.
But every time it ended the same way. Death to something unforseeable (or forgotten in this case, which may as well be blind) or because the level demanded I get lucky.
Once again, I love challenge. I seek it. I live for the battles in these games. It's why I play saveless to begin with. To live on the edge, to force myself to think about what I do, weigh risks, take gambles, know when to retreat...
None of this can be done with save scumming. And these doom wads enforce it if you ever want to beat it sometime in the next century. Again, not because they're "too hard," but because they're unfair. Again, two different things. Doom mappers seem solely interested in killing the player, not challenging them. It sounds like they'd be the same thing but they're not. They're the exact opposite in fact. Enemy placement, "toll booths," or indeed even traps: they're supposed to be obstacles for the player's benefit. Genuine difficulty is measured in removing safety nets and giving less and less room to make a mistake. But these mappers don't do that. They just want to kill you, no matter the means.
So yeah when I run into a bullshit map in a wad, it's a game ender most of the time. Because if this level got in, why shouldn't I expect more to have? Is it really worth wasting more of my time on a level that doesn't respect the player in any way? I want to be resisted but not shot on my doorstep.
Yes I know I'm taking a lot of this way more seriously than you'd think I should. But I feel very strongly about this. Especially since I've seen it done well, and it just hurts that not only is it so rare and precious, but that this sort of thing is discouraged in the mainline doom community.
This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 08 July 2020 - 02:23 PM
#3729 Posted 08 July 2020 - 10:51 PM
^ No that's interesting. Gives a lot of hindsight on how a player can react and emotionally respond to a level. Something that corroborates what you like to see (genuine and fair challenge vs. trollish cheap shots) is how I see people react to Mario Maker levels which may be stupid (I don't even play that game because Nintendo's policies blow), but such a good vulgarization and representation because both the game and its audience are pretty bare bones and the pool of observable content is so huge, patterns can be observed, usually the levels that get the most excited reactions are the ones of the speed run type that actually flow on their own given the right basic quick inputs, because then the stimuli are constant and the player is sucked into the game being put to the test non stop, but for one level like that you'll also encounter a thousand of the same type that are janky (RNG dependent in parts) and a million that are either full of trolls such as invisible blocks that are just there for no reason but fuck you up or softlock you, or downright broken and now no one likes that shit. Funnily enough, the 'adventure' type of levels that are made all pretty-looking but don't offer any challenge or quick thinking and are just a spectacle are notorious for being the most boring type, basically on par with the troll shit in terms of fun just in disguise.
This post has been edited by ck3D: 08 July 2020 - 11:14 PM
#3731 Posted 12 July 2020 - 11:01 AM
I love how he called Event Horizon "that other, better Doom movie" 
#3733 Posted 15 July 2020 - 10:34 AM
Since last time, I have done quite a bit of progress, though I haven't finished any of the wads I've started as I have so much stuff to play that's hard to choose what to play.
Currently I'm on E1M5 of DTWID (if you ask why it takes so long is because when I finish a level, I go back to collect any missed monsters, items and secrets which happens sometimes and I check an YouTube video of UV Max speedrun to see what I missed), as well as starting the following wads:
Double Impact on UV, using Eternity Engine 4.00.00. I have the first level done 100% and I'm on second level. I have heard the last level is insane but I should be able to handle it.
Knee Deep in ZDoom on UV, using ZDoom 2.8.1. I have done the first level 100% and I'm on second level.
I guess I will post some more screenshots of my progress, if anyone is interested.
Also Ninety-Six, I understand your point and I appreciate your argument in regards to unfair Doom maps, including Ancient Aliens and other skillsaw wads that I have yet to play, so only then I can judge the wad and how hard it truly in terms of difficulty. What I can't understand (if I read this right) is why are you trying to play a map without saving? I personally don't have the patience to play through a long and hard map without saving, which is why I save my game often after nearly every successful encounter, even in easy maps (as I'm used to save game feature in games since I was kid), considering sometimes I get bored quickly and continue the game later. In the unlucky case I die, I just reload the game and continue. I don't feel like redoing parts of maps I've already played unless I want to replay the map at a later time, if for example I want to play a vanilla wad in Chocolate Doom continuously and then redoing the wad later in PrBoom+ pistol starting each map after that (especially when it's fresh in memory, so I can finish it faster and with less saving), then I have no problem with that. It's that I don't feel like redoing parts I've already done previously, especially if I did manage a fight better than on my second attempt and then I will be less prepared for the encounter that I died earlier. Plus I feel like it's a waste of time I could have better spent completing maps rather than replaying an entire map multiple times because of a particular encounter later in level that relies too much on luck to survive. There is no need to restrict yourself with using such rules. Again forgive me if I didn't understand your post correctly, I should have replied in past week.
Also what source port are you using for playing? Maybe that can have an effect in the game behavior as I have noticed that in general vanilla and limit removing/boom ports tend to be harder because of infinitely tall enemies and various bugs like the blockmap bug (which is what causes hitscan attacks to go through enemies sometimes, I think), while ZDoom based source ports fix bugs, change physics, change behavior of some stuff (like invisibility behavior, decorations blocking projectiles, etc) and make the game much easier and allow you to aim with your mouse and snipe enemies from far away even earlier than intended if they are in hard to reach places where your shots can't reach them yet in normal gameplay. Yes, I want to mention when I play using ZDoom family ports, I take advantage of the port's features like jumping and mouselook which is even required in ZDoom wads. When I play in Eternity and PrBoom+, I just use WASD + mouse movement, while in vanilla and chocolate I play with default controls keyboard only.
I know some people prefer to stick with one or two source ports but I prefer to play wads as intended with their preferred port with some exceptions. Still, I only use few of the most popular ones.
Currently I'm on E1M5 of DTWID (if you ask why it takes so long is because when I finish a level, I go back to collect any missed monsters, items and secrets which happens sometimes and I check an YouTube video of UV Max speedrun to see what I missed), as well as starting the following wads:
Double Impact on UV, using Eternity Engine 4.00.00. I have the first level done 100% and I'm on second level. I have heard the last level is insane but I should be able to handle it.
Knee Deep in ZDoom on UV, using ZDoom 2.8.1. I have done the first level 100% and I'm on second level.
I guess I will post some more screenshots of my progress, if anyone is interested.
Also Ninety-Six, I understand your point and I appreciate your argument in regards to unfair Doom maps, including Ancient Aliens and other skillsaw wads that I have yet to play, so only then I can judge the wad and how hard it truly in terms of difficulty. What I can't understand (if I read this right) is why are you trying to play a map without saving? I personally don't have the patience to play through a long and hard map without saving, which is why I save my game often after nearly every successful encounter, even in easy maps (as I'm used to save game feature in games since I was kid), considering sometimes I get bored quickly and continue the game later. In the unlucky case I die, I just reload the game and continue. I don't feel like redoing parts of maps I've already played unless I want to replay the map at a later time, if for example I want to play a vanilla wad in Chocolate Doom continuously and then redoing the wad later in PrBoom+ pistol starting each map after that (especially when it's fresh in memory, so I can finish it faster and with less saving), then I have no problem with that. It's that I don't feel like redoing parts I've already done previously, especially if I did manage a fight better than on my second attempt and then I will be less prepared for the encounter that I died earlier. Plus I feel like it's a waste of time I could have better spent completing maps rather than replaying an entire map multiple times because of a particular encounter later in level that relies too much on luck to survive. There is no need to restrict yourself with using such rules. Again forgive me if I didn't understand your post correctly, I should have replied in past week.
Also what source port are you using for playing? Maybe that can have an effect in the game behavior as I have noticed that in general vanilla and limit removing/boom ports tend to be harder because of infinitely tall enemies and various bugs like the blockmap bug (which is what causes hitscan attacks to go through enemies sometimes, I think), while ZDoom based source ports fix bugs, change physics, change behavior of some stuff (like invisibility behavior, decorations blocking projectiles, etc) and make the game much easier and allow you to aim with your mouse and snipe enemies from far away even earlier than intended if they are in hard to reach places where your shots can't reach them yet in normal gameplay. Yes, I want to mention when I play using ZDoom family ports, I take advantage of the port's features like jumping and mouselook which is even required in ZDoom wads. When I play in Eternity and PrBoom+, I just use WASD + mouse movement, while in vanilla and chocolate I play with default controls keyboard only.
I know some people prefer to stick with one or two source ports but I prefer to play wads as intended with their preferred port with some exceptions. Still, I only use few of the most popular ones.
This post has been edited by RunningDuke: 15 July 2020 - 10:36 AM
#3734 Posted 15 July 2020 - 03:01 PM
RunningDuke, on 15 July 2020 - 10:34 AM, said:
Also Ninety-Six, I understand your point and I appreciate your argument in regards to unfair Doom maps, including Ancient Aliens and other skillsaw wads that I have yet to play, so only then I can judge the wad and how hard it truly in terms of difficulty. What I can't understand (if I read this right) is why are you trying to play a map without saving? I personally don't have the patience to play through a long and hard map without saving, which is why I save my game often after nearly every successful encounter, even in easy maps (as I'm used to save game feature in games since I was kid), considering sometimes I get bored quickly and continue the game later. In the unlucky case I die, I just reload the game and continue. I don't feel like redoing parts of maps I've already played unless I want to replay the map at a later time, if for example I want to play a vanilla wad in Chocolate Doom continuously and then redoing the wad later in PrBoom+ pistol starting each map after that (especially when it's fresh in memory, so I can finish it faster and with less saving), then I have no problem with that. It's that I don't feel like redoing parts I've already done previously, especially if I did manage a fight better than on my second attempt and then I will be less prepared for the encounter that I died earlier. Plus I feel like it's a waste of time I could have better spent completing maps rather than replaying an entire map multiple times because of a particular encounter later in level that relies too much on luck to survive. There is no need to restrict yourself with using such rules. Again forgive me if I didn't understand your post correctly, I should have replied in past week.
Also what source port are you using for playing? Maybe that can have an effect in the game behavior as I have noticed that in general vanilla and limit removing/boom ports tend to be harder because of infinitely tall enemies and various bugs like the blockmap bug (which is what causes hitscan attacks to go through enemies sometimes, I think), while ZDoom based source ports fix bugs, change physics, change behavior of some stuff (like invisibility behavior, decorations blocking projectiles, etc) and make the game much easier and allow you to aim with your mouse and snipe enemies from far away even earlier than intended if they are in hard to reach places where your shots can't reach them yet in normal gameplay. Yes, I want to mention when I play using ZDoom family ports, I take advantage of the port's features like jumping and mouselook which is even required in ZDoom wads. When I play in Eternity and PrBoom+, I just use WASD + mouse movement, while in vanilla and chocolate I play with default controls keyboard only.
I know some people prefer to stick with one or two source ports but I prefer to play wads as intended with their preferred port with some exceptions. Still, I only use few of the most popular ones.
Also what source port are you using for playing? Maybe that can have an effect in the game behavior as I have noticed that in general vanilla and limit removing/boom ports tend to be harder because of infinitely tall enemies and various bugs like the blockmap bug (which is what causes hitscan attacks to go through enemies sometimes, I think), while ZDoom based source ports fix bugs, change physics, change behavior of some stuff (like invisibility behavior, decorations blocking projectiles, etc) and make the game much easier and allow you to aim with your mouse and snipe enemies from far away even earlier than intended if they are in hard to reach places where your shots can't reach them yet in normal gameplay. Yes, I want to mention when I play using ZDoom family ports, I take advantage of the port's features like jumping and mouselook which is even required in ZDoom wads. When I play in Eternity and PrBoom+, I just use WASD + mouse movement, while in vanilla and chocolate I play with default controls keyboard only.
I know some people prefer to stick with one or two source ports but I prefer to play wads as intended with their preferred port with some exceptions. Still, I only use few of the most popular ones.
Alright this will take some explaining. Buckle up: wall of text incoming.
I'm going to answer your second question first. My source port of choice is zdoom (actual zdoom, as in not G), but I play it with around 80% vanilla compatiblity (unless it's a mod built for zdoom, then I enable all of zdoom's features). I even play with no freelook if the wad was designed for DOS or other ports that lacked that feature.
However there are four main concessions I give towards zdoom over vanilla. The first and by far the most important is overwriting the old hitscan code. I cannot stand how it was done in vanilla. It is basically a game-breaker for me. Y'know how it's annoying when in Duke 3D projectiles clip through enemies (or alternatively hit them but don't register)? That's annoying as hell, but at least it doesn't affect 78% of your weapons, including the workhorses (shotgun, chaingun). It renders the chainsaw useless, neuters the SSG, neuters the BFG, and makes fighting monsters at point-blank insufferable. When I've played DOS (or the official current Unity ports) the amount of times I've taken damage because a pinky slid off the chainsaw or because an imp clawed me because exactly one pellet from the shotgun hit him at point blank is uncountable and infuriating in all cases.
The second and other important concession is control. I may not use freelook, but I still use modern-ish mouse aiming (just without the vertical component) for the precision. Granted I do still have a few gripes with the autoaim system (like when it locks on to an enemy that is literally not on screen at all, even a pixel. Extra fun when you have a rocket launcher in your hands), but for the most part I work with it.
Something I can't work with is the 3rd concession: infinitely tall actors. Now this one, I want to be willing to hand over, since in theory the game should be designed around it. And at least for the first game, it is (minus the infuriating bug where monsters have infinitely tall melee range while you don't. Walking up to a ledge and being unable to move is one thing. Being clawed when you have no way of knowing what's down there on the other hand, isn't fun. Luckily zdoom fixes that without letting you turn that part back on outright, tall actors enabled or not). However, in the second game, even the official levels... it's starts to look clear that the level designers and modders stop really thinking about it. They'll make sure you can possibly make it to the exit, but don't really bother to shore up certain other areas to account for where and when it can be crippling.
The fourth and final concession is the crosshair. It's there for 3 reasons: First, I found out the hard way that the centered weapon sprites aren't actually centered. Normally it doesn't make a difference but when you're trying to snipe distant targets, the problem becomes apparent. Second, in widescreen resolutions, it's significantly harder to place your vertical center than it is on 4:3. It makes certain battles (like the Icon of Sin) far more annoying than it's worth. Not harder, just annoying. And lastly, the fists don't really have a centered model so it makes punching things also annoying. Again, not really harder, just more annoying.
There is one last thing I enable. I don't consider it a concession given that even more vanilla ports use it (such as Crispy or the official Unity ports), other rereleased FPSes enable it, and that with simple math you could figure it out, but I also turn on the kills, items, and secrets counters because I am a completionist.
Now, as for why I play saveless... I will actually fully concede that redoing parts of a level can be annoying. However, for me, that's...kinda the point.
Once again, the main reason I play and love these older FPSes for is the combat. I love to fight. I love engaging in big battles and fierce firefights,surviving solely on my wits and skill alone. This one single aspect is probably what sits at the basis for every opinion I hold about these games. Why I don't care for power fantasy mods like Russian Overkill (because no resistance bores me), why I disagree with the opinions regarding being bored of the stock FPS weapons (I like the workhorse weapons being extremely clear on how they function and translating skills from one game to another), and indeed, why I have almost no tolerance for bullshit.
I will repeat something I said just now: "surviving on my wits and skill alone." For me, "surviving" doesn't just mean "winning a fight." It also means making tactical decisions, like knowing when to retreat. And those decisions are really at the core of why I love combat. If I can just go back to a save, then there simply aren't any stakes. With enough brute force and bullheadedness you can win no matter how lopsided the odds are. Hell, with a safety net behind you at all times, you could always reload any time you take damage and make it through perfectly unscathed.
Now if you like playing that way, go right ahead. I won't stop you. But for me, quicksaving any time things get difficult... it turns every encounter into an inevitable victory. And that's the key word: inevitable. Reloading means every win is inevitable. Victory is always assured. For me, success isn't a success if defeat is literally impossible. A win doesn't feel like a win if there wasn't the possibility I would lose. If there aren't any stakes, if there is no cause for caution, then... it's no different than those power fantasy mods. It's no different than using god mode.
Again, this is how I see it. You can freely argue that there is a big difference between using a cheat or quicksaving, since in one you're still doing it. And again, that's fair. But for me, the feeling is the same. If there isn't something to lose, I can't feel like I've won.
This is why I despise cheap shots and bullshit so much. No only does it unjustly send me back when it wasn't remotely my fault, it encourages save scumming. It makes it almost a demand that I refute any and all stakes if I hope to see the end sometime in this century. It forces victory to be inevitable to actually be possible. That's ass-backwards no matter how you cut it.
And even that wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't constantly mistaken for actual difficulty, and thus spreads like a plague.
I want to emphasize. I love hard. When something is difficult, genuinely difficult, I will be more than happy to not only accept the loss but the consequences that come with it. I can learn from my mistakes. Figure out what decision might not have been the best call, or know what my weakness was in the execution; either to improve that particular skill or try something I can do more reliably. I love to push my limitations, and that includes knowing when I have to run away. It makes knowing when or when not to collect a certain powerup incredibly meaningful, even if I don't know what's coming up next. And if I lose and get sent back all the way to the start of the level, because I just wasn't good enough, then so be it. I'll just have to get better.
But if I'm sent back because I wasn't psychic, then it's a problem.
The key takeaway from all of this isn't just that I hate being sent back when it isn't my fault. It's that such levels force a playstyle that makes victory a foregone conclusion. It forces me to get rid of the stakes. As I said, if victory has to be inevitable to be achieved, that's ass-backwards. And more importantly to me, it robs me of that sense of a hard-fought battle. Where I faced down the odds and got through on good decision making, good skill, good recovery on bad decisions, and the ability to fix myself up after not being skilled enough. I don't like winning while being completely spick and span. It only means something to me if I crawled out of the inferno, battered and bruised, and fist weakly but defiantly in the air, as some teeth fall out.
Is that a somewhat overly-dramatic image? Yes. But I think it gets the point across.
This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 15 July 2020 - 03:03 PM
#3735 Posted 15 July 2020 - 10:39 PM
Thanks, that was good read! As ck3D said, it's always interesting to read other people's thoughts about level design and how they react to it.
Now I will reply to some points you made (it will be quite a lengthy post as well):
I see and that reminds me I should also talk a bit of my past as well. ZDoom was actually the first source port I used back in mid/late 2007 when I discovered the Doom modding community (I initially used an older version 2.0.96x community build because I wanted to play a mod called NeoDoom and saw it linked on Daniel's page, later I started using the official 2.2.0 or newer versions) and have extensively used it until 2011 or so (along with GZDoom and Skulltag) to play the Doom engine games and various mods the community made (and back in around 2009-2010 I even made my own Realm667 randomizer mod as I always liked those custom monsters, weapons and items they had and I was also a fan of projects made by Tormentor667) because back then I didn't know of DOSBox to play the original versions again (other than watching YouTube videos, like some people using it to play Duke3D) until I used it myself in 2012 to relive the original dos versions of certain games and what I missed in those 5 years. When I actually got Collector's Edition (and in late 2015 I got Book of ID from id Anthology) to finally own original copies of Doom games (until that point I only had shareware Doom versions 1.2, 1.666, 1.9 and a pirated 1.666 copy of Doom 2, not to mention pirated IWADS to join Skulltag servers from an utility called GetWad that got the IWADS for me) but later I sold it after getting the rare and expensive Book of ID (which includes the original DOS versions as well and even fully patched Final Doom wads) because Collector's Edition only had Doom95 port included (and outdated Final Doom wads) and didn't want to play like that buggy Doom95 port, so I used Chocolate Doom to play the IWADS in 2012-2013 for first time on UV skill (and the Master Levels I bought separately, though I sold that as well), so at that time I experienced Ultimate Doom (episodes 2-4), Final Doom and Master Levels for first time in my life. At that time I realized I missed vanilla feeling (which ZDoom family ports lack) and started becoming purist, although this only applied to IWADS, as for everything else I still used ZDoom, for example I used to play Aeons of Death mod for ZDoom with various megawads (whether they were vanilla or limit removing or even other ZDoom wads) and it broke balance and level design so much, then since 2015-2016 I realized my mistake and I have used more vanilla ports like Eternity for playing vanilla/boom wads (although this still didn't work with two old wads Return to Phobos and Doomsday of UAC which both were made with older Doom versions in mind, I myself never owned the registered version of Doom with exception of using the downgrade patch to turn Ultimate Doom into Doom 1.1, so then I patch it to 1.2 and 1.666 to play certain wads from 1994 that are made for these versions), then since last 1-2 years I play each wad exactly as intended by the author, with exception when a wad was made for an older version of ZDoom, in that case if it's a very old wad from 1999 or so I use ZDoom 1.22 (which still has quite a bit of vanilla feeling) and for rest I use ZDoom 2.8.1. Even if for example a wad worked fine in ZDoom 2.0.63a (an ancient ZDoom version from 2004 which seems to be one of the more popular old ZDoom versions) and it doesn't work fine in ZDoom 2.8.1, I will in that case cheat to proceed (see more below about cheating).
OK now to go back to main topic, the reason why I don't like ZDoom that much in last couple of years is because I always thought it added some unnecessary features that are also enabled by default. For example I am not a fan of the squished menu (or the Quake-like interface added into Doom, it's out of place, nothing wrong with Quake interface as Quake is also one of my favorite games), the changed behavior of invisibility and decorations blocking projectiles, the bullet decals, the blood splats on walls, weapon centering when firing and so on. With exception of weapon centering when firing (which I dislike a lot and wish it could be turned off), most of these can be reverted back with the compatibility options but thing is I never use compatibility options, I leave everything to default to get the port's intended experience, I didn't really understand people who use it to play for vanilla (I speak here in general, this isn't meant as an attack, as you are free to use whatever port you like and feel comfortable with). I only use ZDoom for playing ZDoom wads and here I don't care about vanilla and I also play with the nice alternate HUD which shows information that the default ZDoom mini HUD doesn't show, I don't mind having a modern Doom experience every now and then. What bothers me is when people play test their maps in ZDoom and despite claiming it is a vanilla map, then if you try to play in Chocolate Doom or in PrBoom+, you get stuck because the author didn't test with the intended port, you are forced to noclip to continue which is just bullshit. This should come in a separate topic/rant.
Now take for example Eternity Engine. When you run it for first time, it will play demos in background just fine, when you start the game you will see vanilla gameplay and even though Eternity is an advanced port and even has some enhancements that ZDoom also has, they aren't enabled by default. You still get vanilla Doom out of the box gameplay (or rather Boom gameplay, not sure which features are enabled by default). The only thing the port lacks are compatibility levels, which is where PrBoom+ comes, to fill the missing gap from Eternity, especially when playing problematic wads like those mentioned above. PrBoom+ can play them fine with enabling Doom 1.2 compatibility in case of say playing Return to Phobos and for playing Doomsday of UAC it can also work with 1.666 and 1.9 compatibility. It's a shame the level is broken in Ultimate Doom and you have to use NOCLIP to proceed. Oh yeah another thing, I'm also a completionist (getting 100% in each level, this is something I have started doing since past 2 or so years, before that I was fine with just finishing the level, although even back in 2015 I still wanted to 100% everything when came to original games' levels). I also don't use cheats at all (unless absolutely required, example noclip to progress in a problematic map or god mode just because a fight seems pretty much impossible to get past), as such I'd rather miss an inaccessible secret (there are quite a few in Ultimate Doom and Doom 2, not sure about TNT and Plutonia, I will eventually get to 100% them one day) than having to use NOCLIP even if temporary. I also never understood why some people (many people on YouTube when they record their playthroughs of various games) for example cheat with noclip to undo their mistakes whereas if they saved the game more often, they would just reload if they happened to fall into an inescapable pit. I will save this for another topic, don't want to derail this topic too much.
With that said, I agree with you when comes to some bullshit vanilla limitations. I never liked infinitely tall actors, I always felt it was bullshit getting clawed to death by an imp at bottom you could never see or a cacodemon biting you from up there that was blocking your way and so on. You can try working around this limitation with firing a rocket and hoping its blast radius reaches the imp at bottom, as this is how the Icon of Sin also works, the rocket's splash damage is supposed to reach John Romero's head.
I also don't like when my shots miss at close range, I even remember recently having to use 4-5 shells to kill a pinky. And yeah I admit I don't use chainsaw that much because it is quite risky to chainsaw a demon even if theory sounds like a good idea, there is so much shotgun ammo laying around (in original game and even in mapsets like DTWID) that you can use it most of time and still end up with 100 shells at end of level (50 without a backpack) provided you occasionally switch to chaingun and you don't pick up shell boxes when you don't need them. In ZDoom, the flawed collision is fixed, thus you can punch/chainsaw enemies quite easily which works in your advantage but it can be cheating to kill a Mancubus or even a Spider Mastermind with just your berserk fists. Whereas in vanilla it was nearly impossible to hit them with melee attacks.
Somehow, I've had this happen more often in ZDoom than in vanilla when comes to firing a rocket at window and hitting the edge close to me. The rocket launcher doesn't feel as satisfying to use in ZDoom than in vanilla. Something is probably changed in rockets or explosion code in ZDoom ports.
I definitely enable the crosshair in ZDoom ports as well. It definitely helps with aiming, especially when sniping with pistol/chaingun.
I like having the automap stats enabled as well, however in ZDoom based ports they are already enabled by default (items have to be turned on manually as for some reason they aren't shown), PrBoom+ displays all 3 categories by default, Crispy has an option to display them (which is one of features that I enable as well), Eternity doesn't have automap stats unfortunately (they can only be seen if you enable the kinda ugly Boom HUD, I prefer to use classic Doom HUD when playing ports other than ZDoom ports) and finally the recent Bethesda/Unity ports have nice icons for all 3 categories and they are enabled by default as well, so glad they made this feature official, giving you an extra reason to get 100%, compared to original DOS and Chocolate where I have to save at end of level and if I don't have 100% at end of level stats, I load the game and continue searching for any misses (and watch an YouTube video that shows what I missed, provided someone did an UV Max video of the map/wad I'm playing).
As for the rest (if I missed anything, I will reply later, I have been writing this message for 40+ minutes):
I fully understand you. I would have also liked to play saveless but I really hate having to redo stuff, maybe if I were to play saveless the original Doom games and even other games like good old Duke3D, Quake and so on, I'm fine with that because I'm familiar with the original levels and can beat them on hard difficulty even with eyes closed. The only exception are Ultimate Doom E4M1 and E4M2, I absolutely HATE these two levels. I remember two years ago when doing these levels in DOSBox and with the limited controls I have on this laptop and how I died like 10-15 times in each of them, it's incredibly difficult to dodge with the layout I have (so I rarely even strafe with the < and > buttons which is what I use for strafing, I just have to turn to left/right and run when I have to dodge an incoming projectile) and I have to get hit sometimes and pray to RNG I don't get maximum damage, at least in most other Doom and Doom 2 levels there is enough health/armor and I have space to dodge an attack so it's not that bad but in those 2 levels there is very little space to dodge. Well, mostly in E4M2, in E4M1 I hate the lack of health and that bullshit NIN secret with those teleporting barons, it was absolute bullshit and it doesn't help the next level is HARDEST in the game, making you start with low health (thank God for those two medkits in front of you but even then with 65-75% health it doesn't help against that bullshit cacodemon swarm at beginning of level) and the whole level is just insane, too fucking hard because of traps at every corner (interestingly that cyberdemon at end is a joke as it can be telefragged). That's why I will always take over Duke3D's E4 (The Birth) compared to Ultimate Doom's Thy Flesh Consumed any day. It was decently balanced and the levels are also way more fun and even introduce something new (the 3 new enemies and the Expander). Ultimate Doom just adds new levels and although are nicely designed, they are unbalanced and very inconsistent. I was never a fan of Doom's expansions (Thy Flesh Consumed, Master Levels and Final Doom) because they don't add ANYTHING new other than textures and music and few bullshit hard levels. Same applies to Heretic and Hexen expansions, again just new levels, no new content, disappointing. I wish they made new weapons and enemies and items, like Doom 2 added to first Doom. And like how Quake Mission Packs (talking about Quake 1, 2 and 3) added a lot of new stuff, making the expansions absolutely worth playing, heck I always thought Quake 1 Mission Packs were some of the best addons ever created for video games, that's how I wish Doom expansions were also made, with new content. I realize id was busy with Quake at that time but they could have at the very least incorporate SSG and some D2 monsters into Ultimate Doom E4. As for NRFTL and SIGIL, they are much better than previous Doom expansions (although I think Plutonia was also pretty well designed and very challenging at times) but they still don't add anything new. I don't know if I should count the recent community addons (Double Impact, No End In Sight, Deathless and Back to Saturn X E1) as official addons but once again they are just nice new levels and that's it (BTSX adding a ton of new textures and new music). Hope to see more high quality community works getting selected as official addons.
I guess I will stop writing now, there goes my hour.
If I missed a point, I will write it later. Sorry if I didn't talk about everything and started talking about other things, it's just I have to talk a LOT of things about Doom games.
Now I will reply to some points you made (it will be quite a lengthy post as well):
Quote
I'm going to answer your second question first. My source port of choice is zdoom (actual zdoom, as in not G), but I play it with around 80% vanilla compatiblity (unless it's a mod built for zdoom, then I enable all of zdoom's features). I even play with no freelook if the wad was designed for DOS or other ports that lacked that feature.
However there are four main concessions I give towards zdoom over vanilla. The first and by far the most important is overwriting the old hitscan code. I cannot stand how it was done in vanilla. It is basically a game-breaker for me. Y'know how it's annoying when in Duke 3D projectiles clip through enemies (or alternatively hit them but don't register)? That's annoying as hell, but at least it doesn't affect 78% of your weapons, including the workhorses (shotgun, chaingun). It renders the chainsaw useless, neuters the SSG, neuters the BFG, and makes fighting monsters at point-blank insufferable. When I've played DOS (or the official current Unity ports) the amount of times I've taken damage because a pinky slid off the chainsaw or because an imp clawed me because exactly one pellet from the shotgun hit him at point blank is uncountable and infuriating in all cases.
The second and other important concession is control. I may not use freelook, but I still use modern-ish mouse aiming (just without the vertical component) for the precision. Granted I do still have a few gripes with the autoaim system (like when it locks on to an enemy that is literally not on screen at all, even a pixel. Extra fun when you have a rocket launcher in your hands), but for the most part I work with it.
Something I can't work with is the 3rd concession: infinitely tall actors. Now this one, I want to be willing to hand over, since in theory the game should be designed around it. And at least for the first game, it is (minus the infuriating bug where monsters have infinitely tall melee range while you don't. Walking up to a ledge and being unable to move is one thing. Being clawed when you have no way of knowing what's down there on the other hand, isn't fun. Luckily zdoom fixes that without letting you turn that part back on outright, tall actors enabled or not). However, in the second game, even the official levels... it's starts to look clear that the level designers and modders stop really thinking about it. They'll make sure you can possibly make it to the exit, but don't really bother to shore up certain other areas to account for where and when it can be crippling.
The fourth and final concession is the crosshair. It's there for 3 reasons: First, I found out the hard way that the centered weapon sprites aren't actually centered. Normally it doesn't make a difference but when you're trying to snipe distant targets, the problem becomes apparent. Second, in widescreen resolutions, it's significantly harder to place your vertical center than it is on 4:3. It makes certain battles (like the Icon of Sin) far more annoying than it's worth. Not harder, just annoying. And lastly, the fists don't really have a centered model so it makes punching things also annoying. Again, not really harder, just more annoying.
There is one last thing I enable. I don't consider it a concession given that even more vanilla ports use it (such as Crispy or the official Unity ports), other rereleased FPSes enable it, and that with simple math you could figure it out, but I also turn on the kills, items, and secrets counters because I am a completionist.
However there are four main concessions I give towards zdoom over vanilla. The first and by far the most important is overwriting the old hitscan code. I cannot stand how it was done in vanilla. It is basically a game-breaker for me. Y'know how it's annoying when in Duke 3D projectiles clip through enemies (or alternatively hit them but don't register)? That's annoying as hell, but at least it doesn't affect 78% of your weapons, including the workhorses (shotgun, chaingun). It renders the chainsaw useless, neuters the SSG, neuters the BFG, and makes fighting monsters at point-blank insufferable. When I've played DOS (or the official current Unity ports) the amount of times I've taken damage because a pinky slid off the chainsaw or because an imp clawed me because exactly one pellet from the shotgun hit him at point blank is uncountable and infuriating in all cases.
The second and other important concession is control. I may not use freelook, but I still use modern-ish mouse aiming (just without the vertical component) for the precision. Granted I do still have a few gripes with the autoaim system (like when it locks on to an enemy that is literally not on screen at all, even a pixel. Extra fun when you have a rocket launcher in your hands), but for the most part I work with it.
Something I can't work with is the 3rd concession: infinitely tall actors. Now this one, I want to be willing to hand over, since in theory the game should be designed around it. And at least for the first game, it is (minus the infuriating bug where monsters have infinitely tall melee range while you don't. Walking up to a ledge and being unable to move is one thing. Being clawed when you have no way of knowing what's down there on the other hand, isn't fun. Luckily zdoom fixes that without letting you turn that part back on outright, tall actors enabled or not). However, in the second game, even the official levels... it's starts to look clear that the level designers and modders stop really thinking about it. They'll make sure you can possibly make it to the exit, but don't really bother to shore up certain other areas to account for where and when it can be crippling.
The fourth and final concession is the crosshair. It's there for 3 reasons: First, I found out the hard way that the centered weapon sprites aren't actually centered. Normally it doesn't make a difference but when you're trying to snipe distant targets, the problem becomes apparent. Second, in widescreen resolutions, it's significantly harder to place your vertical center than it is on 4:3. It makes certain battles (like the Icon of Sin) far more annoying than it's worth. Not harder, just annoying. And lastly, the fists don't really have a centered model so it makes punching things also annoying. Again, not really harder, just more annoying.
There is one last thing I enable. I don't consider it a concession given that even more vanilla ports use it (such as Crispy or the official Unity ports), other rereleased FPSes enable it, and that with simple math you could figure it out, but I also turn on the kills, items, and secrets counters because I am a completionist.
I see and that reminds me I should also talk a bit of my past as well. ZDoom was actually the first source port I used back in mid/late 2007 when I discovered the Doom modding community (I initially used an older version 2.0.96x community build because I wanted to play a mod called NeoDoom and saw it linked on Daniel's page, later I started using the official 2.2.0 or newer versions) and have extensively used it until 2011 or so (along with GZDoom and Skulltag) to play the Doom engine games and various mods the community made (and back in around 2009-2010 I even made my own Realm667 randomizer mod as I always liked those custom monsters, weapons and items they had and I was also a fan of projects made by Tormentor667) because back then I didn't know of DOSBox to play the original versions again (other than watching YouTube videos, like some people using it to play Duke3D) until I used it myself in 2012 to relive the original dos versions of certain games and what I missed in those 5 years. When I actually got Collector's Edition (and in late 2015 I got Book of ID from id Anthology) to finally own original copies of Doom games (until that point I only had shareware Doom versions 1.2, 1.666, 1.9 and a pirated 1.666 copy of Doom 2, not to mention pirated IWADS to join Skulltag servers from an utility called GetWad that got the IWADS for me) but later I sold it after getting the rare and expensive Book of ID (which includes the original DOS versions as well and even fully patched Final Doom wads) because Collector's Edition only had Doom95 port included (and outdated Final Doom wads) and didn't want to play like that buggy Doom95 port, so I used Chocolate Doom to play the IWADS in 2012-2013 for first time on UV skill (and the Master Levels I bought separately, though I sold that as well), so at that time I experienced Ultimate Doom (episodes 2-4), Final Doom and Master Levels for first time in my life. At that time I realized I missed vanilla feeling (which ZDoom family ports lack) and started becoming purist, although this only applied to IWADS, as for everything else I still used ZDoom, for example I used to play Aeons of Death mod for ZDoom with various megawads (whether they were vanilla or limit removing or even other ZDoom wads) and it broke balance and level design so much, then since 2015-2016 I realized my mistake and I have used more vanilla ports like Eternity for playing vanilla/boom wads (although this still didn't work with two old wads Return to Phobos and Doomsday of UAC which both were made with older Doom versions in mind, I myself never owned the registered version of Doom with exception of using the downgrade patch to turn Ultimate Doom into Doom 1.1, so then I patch it to 1.2 and 1.666 to play certain wads from 1994 that are made for these versions), then since last 1-2 years I play each wad exactly as intended by the author, with exception when a wad was made for an older version of ZDoom, in that case if it's a very old wad from 1999 or so I use ZDoom 1.22 (which still has quite a bit of vanilla feeling) and for rest I use ZDoom 2.8.1. Even if for example a wad worked fine in ZDoom 2.0.63a (an ancient ZDoom version from 2004 which seems to be one of the more popular old ZDoom versions) and it doesn't work fine in ZDoom 2.8.1, I will in that case cheat to proceed (see more below about cheating).
OK now to go back to main topic, the reason why I don't like ZDoom that much in last couple of years is because I always thought it added some unnecessary features that are also enabled by default. For example I am not a fan of the squished menu (or the Quake-like interface added into Doom, it's out of place, nothing wrong with Quake interface as Quake is also one of my favorite games), the changed behavior of invisibility and decorations blocking projectiles, the bullet decals, the blood splats on walls, weapon centering when firing and so on. With exception of weapon centering when firing (which I dislike a lot and wish it could be turned off), most of these can be reverted back with the compatibility options but thing is I never use compatibility options, I leave everything to default to get the port's intended experience, I didn't really understand people who use it to play for vanilla (I speak here in general, this isn't meant as an attack, as you are free to use whatever port you like and feel comfortable with). I only use ZDoom for playing ZDoom wads and here I don't care about vanilla and I also play with the nice alternate HUD which shows information that the default ZDoom mini HUD doesn't show, I don't mind having a modern Doom experience every now and then. What bothers me is when people play test their maps in ZDoom and despite claiming it is a vanilla map, then if you try to play in Chocolate Doom or in PrBoom+, you get stuck because the author didn't test with the intended port, you are forced to noclip to continue which is just bullshit. This should come in a separate topic/rant.
Now take for example Eternity Engine. When you run it for first time, it will play demos in background just fine, when you start the game you will see vanilla gameplay and even though Eternity is an advanced port and even has some enhancements that ZDoom also has, they aren't enabled by default. You still get vanilla Doom out of the box gameplay (or rather Boom gameplay, not sure which features are enabled by default). The only thing the port lacks are compatibility levels, which is where PrBoom+ comes, to fill the missing gap from Eternity, especially when playing problematic wads like those mentioned above. PrBoom+ can play them fine with enabling Doom 1.2 compatibility in case of say playing Return to Phobos and for playing Doomsday of UAC it can also work with 1.666 and 1.9 compatibility. It's a shame the level is broken in Ultimate Doom and you have to use NOCLIP to proceed. Oh yeah another thing, I'm also a completionist (getting 100% in each level, this is something I have started doing since past 2 or so years, before that I was fine with just finishing the level, although even back in 2015 I still wanted to 100% everything when came to original games' levels). I also don't use cheats at all (unless absolutely required, example noclip to progress in a problematic map or god mode just because a fight seems pretty much impossible to get past), as such I'd rather miss an inaccessible secret (there are quite a few in Ultimate Doom and Doom 2, not sure about TNT and Plutonia, I will eventually get to 100% them one day) than having to use NOCLIP even if temporary. I also never understood why some people (many people on YouTube when they record their playthroughs of various games) for example cheat with noclip to undo their mistakes whereas if they saved the game more often, they would just reload if they happened to fall into an inescapable pit. I will save this for another topic, don't want to derail this topic too much.
With that said, I agree with you when comes to some bullshit vanilla limitations. I never liked infinitely tall actors, I always felt it was bullshit getting clawed to death by an imp at bottom you could never see or a cacodemon biting you from up there that was blocking your way and so on. You can try working around this limitation with firing a rocket and hoping its blast radius reaches the imp at bottom, as this is how the Icon of Sin also works, the rocket's splash damage is supposed to reach John Romero's head.
I also don't like when my shots miss at close range, I even remember recently having to use 4-5 shells to kill a pinky. And yeah I admit I don't use chainsaw that much because it is quite risky to chainsaw a demon even if theory sounds like a good idea, there is so much shotgun ammo laying around (in original game and even in mapsets like DTWID) that you can use it most of time and still end up with 100 shells at end of level (50 without a backpack) provided you occasionally switch to chaingun and you don't pick up shell boxes when you don't need them. In ZDoom, the flawed collision is fixed, thus you can punch/chainsaw enemies quite easily which works in your advantage but it can be cheating to kill a Mancubus or even a Spider Mastermind with just your berserk fists. Whereas in vanilla it was nearly impossible to hit them with melee attacks.
Somehow, I've had this happen more often in ZDoom than in vanilla when comes to firing a rocket at window and hitting the edge close to me. The rocket launcher doesn't feel as satisfying to use in ZDoom than in vanilla. Something is probably changed in rockets or explosion code in ZDoom ports.
I definitely enable the crosshair in ZDoom ports as well. It definitely helps with aiming, especially when sniping with pistol/chaingun.
I like having the automap stats enabled as well, however in ZDoom based ports they are already enabled by default (items have to be turned on manually as for some reason they aren't shown), PrBoom+ displays all 3 categories by default, Crispy has an option to display them (which is one of features that I enable as well), Eternity doesn't have automap stats unfortunately (they can only be seen if you enable the kinda ugly Boom HUD, I prefer to use classic Doom HUD when playing ports other than ZDoom ports) and finally the recent Bethesda/Unity ports have nice icons for all 3 categories and they are enabled by default as well, so glad they made this feature official, giving you an extra reason to get 100%, compared to original DOS and Chocolate where I have to save at end of level and if I don't have 100% at end of level stats, I load the game and continue searching for any misses (and watch an YouTube video that shows what I missed, provided someone did an UV Max video of the map/wad I'm playing).
As for the rest (if I missed anything, I will reply later, I have been writing this message for 40+ minutes):
Quote
Now, as for why I play saveless... I will actually fully concede that redoing parts of a level can be annoying. However, for me, that's...kinda the point.
Once again, the main reason I play and love these older FPSes for is the combat. I love to fight. I love engaging in big battles and fierce firefights,surviving solely on my wits and skill alone. This one single aspect is probably what sits at the basis for every opinion I hold about these games. Why I don't care for power fantasy mods like Russian Overkill (because no resistance bores me), why I disagree with the opinions regarding being bored of the stock FPS weapons (I like the workhorse weapons being extremely clear on how they function and translating skills from one game to another), and indeed, why I have almost no tolerance for bullshit.
I will repeat something I said just now: "surviving on my wits and skill alone." For me, "surviving" doesn't just mean "winning a fight." It also means making tactical decisions, like knowing when to retreat. And those decisions are really at the core of why I love combat. If I can just go back to a save, then there simply aren't any stakes. With enough brute force and bullheadedness you can win no matter how lopsided the odds are. Hell, with a safety net behind you at all times, you could always reload any time you take damage and make it through perfectly unscathed.
Now if you like playing that way, go right ahead. I won't stop you. But for me, quicksaving any time things get difficult... it turns every encounter into an inevitable victory. And that's the key word: inevitable. Reloading means every win is inevitable. Victory is always assured. For me, success isn't a success if defeat is literally impossible. A win doesn't feel like a win if there wasn't the possibility I would lose. If there aren't any stakes, if there is no cause for caution, then... it's no different than those power fantasy mods. It's no different than using god mode.
Again, this is how I see it. You can freely argue that there is a big difference between using a cheat or quicksaving, since in one you're still doing it. And again, that's fair. But for me, the feeling is the same. If there isn't something to lose, I can't feel like I've won.
This is why I despise cheap shots and bullshit so much. No only does it unjustly send me back when it wasn't remotely my fault, it encourages save scumming. It makes it almost a demand that I refute any and all stakes if I hope to see the end sometime in this century. It forces victory to be inevitable to actually be possible. That's ass-backwards no matter how you cut it.
And even that wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't constantly mistaken for actual difficulty, and thus spreads like a plague.
I want to emphasize. I love hard. When something is difficult, genuinely difficult, I will be more than happy to not only accept the loss but the consequences that come with it. I can learn from my mistakes. Figure out what decision might not have been the best call, or know what my weakness was in the execution; either to improve that particular skill or try something I can do more reliably. I love to push my limitations, and that includes knowing when I have to run away. It makes knowing when or when not to collect a certain powerup incredibly meaningful, even if I don't know what's coming up next. And if I lose and get sent back all the way to the start of the level, because I just wasn't good enough, then so be it. I'll just have to get better.
But if I'm sent back because I wasn't psychic, then it's a problem.
The key takeaway from all of this isn't just that I hate being sent back when it isn't my fault. It's that such levels force a playstyle that makes victory a foregone conclusion. It forces me to get rid of the stakes. As I said, if victory has to be inevitable to be achieved, that's ass-backwards. And more importantly to me, it robs me of that sense of a hard-fought battle. Where I faced down the odds and got through on good decision making, good skill, good recovery on bad decisions, and the ability to fix myself up after not being skilled enough. I don't like winning while being completely spick and span. It only means something to me if I crawled out of the inferno, battered and bruised, and fist weakly but defiantly in the air, as some teeth fall out.
Is that a somewhat overly-dramatic image? Yes. But I think it gets the point across.
Once again, the main reason I play and love these older FPSes for is the combat. I love to fight. I love engaging in big battles and fierce firefights,surviving solely on my wits and skill alone. This one single aspect is probably what sits at the basis for every opinion I hold about these games. Why I don't care for power fantasy mods like Russian Overkill (because no resistance bores me), why I disagree with the opinions regarding being bored of the stock FPS weapons (I like the workhorse weapons being extremely clear on how they function and translating skills from one game to another), and indeed, why I have almost no tolerance for bullshit.
I will repeat something I said just now: "surviving on my wits and skill alone." For me, "surviving" doesn't just mean "winning a fight." It also means making tactical decisions, like knowing when to retreat. And those decisions are really at the core of why I love combat. If I can just go back to a save, then there simply aren't any stakes. With enough brute force and bullheadedness you can win no matter how lopsided the odds are. Hell, with a safety net behind you at all times, you could always reload any time you take damage and make it through perfectly unscathed.
Now if you like playing that way, go right ahead. I won't stop you. But for me, quicksaving any time things get difficult... it turns every encounter into an inevitable victory. And that's the key word: inevitable. Reloading means every win is inevitable. Victory is always assured. For me, success isn't a success if defeat is literally impossible. A win doesn't feel like a win if there wasn't the possibility I would lose. If there aren't any stakes, if there is no cause for caution, then... it's no different than those power fantasy mods. It's no different than using god mode.
Again, this is how I see it. You can freely argue that there is a big difference between using a cheat or quicksaving, since in one you're still doing it. And again, that's fair. But for me, the feeling is the same. If there isn't something to lose, I can't feel like I've won.
This is why I despise cheap shots and bullshit so much. No only does it unjustly send me back when it wasn't remotely my fault, it encourages save scumming. It makes it almost a demand that I refute any and all stakes if I hope to see the end sometime in this century. It forces victory to be inevitable to actually be possible. That's ass-backwards no matter how you cut it.
And even that wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't constantly mistaken for actual difficulty, and thus spreads like a plague.
I want to emphasize. I love hard. When something is difficult, genuinely difficult, I will be more than happy to not only accept the loss but the consequences that come with it. I can learn from my mistakes. Figure out what decision might not have been the best call, or know what my weakness was in the execution; either to improve that particular skill or try something I can do more reliably. I love to push my limitations, and that includes knowing when I have to run away. It makes knowing when or when not to collect a certain powerup incredibly meaningful, even if I don't know what's coming up next. And if I lose and get sent back all the way to the start of the level, because I just wasn't good enough, then so be it. I'll just have to get better.
But if I'm sent back because I wasn't psychic, then it's a problem.
The key takeaway from all of this isn't just that I hate being sent back when it isn't my fault. It's that such levels force a playstyle that makes victory a foregone conclusion. It forces me to get rid of the stakes. As I said, if victory has to be inevitable to be achieved, that's ass-backwards. And more importantly to me, it robs me of that sense of a hard-fought battle. Where I faced down the odds and got through on good decision making, good skill, good recovery on bad decisions, and the ability to fix myself up after not being skilled enough. I don't like winning while being completely spick and span. It only means something to me if I crawled out of the inferno, battered and bruised, and fist weakly but defiantly in the air, as some teeth fall out.
Is that a somewhat overly-dramatic image? Yes. But I think it gets the point across.
I fully understand you. I would have also liked to play saveless but I really hate having to redo stuff, maybe if I were to play saveless the original Doom games and even other games like good old Duke3D, Quake and so on, I'm fine with that because I'm familiar with the original levels and can beat them on hard difficulty even with eyes closed. The only exception are Ultimate Doom E4M1 and E4M2, I absolutely HATE these two levels. I remember two years ago when doing these levels in DOSBox and with the limited controls I have on this laptop and how I died like 10-15 times in each of them, it's incredibly difficult to dodge with the layout I have (so I rarely even strafe with the < and > buttons which is what I use for strafing, I just have to turn to left/right and run when I have to dodge an incoming projectile) and I have to get hit sometimes and pray to RNG I don't get maximum damage, at least in most other Doom and Doom 2 levels there is enough health/armor and I have space to dodge an attack so it's not that bad but in those 2 levels there is very little space to dodge. Well, mostly in E4M2, in E4M1 I hate the lack of health and that bullshit NIN secret with those teleporting barons, it was absolute bullshit and it doesn't help the next level is HARDEST in the game, making you start with low health (thank God for those two medkits in front of you but even then with 65-75% health it doesn't help against that bullshit cacodemon swarm at beginning of level) and the whole level is just insane, too fucking hard because of traps at every corner (interestingly that cyberdemon at end is a joke as it can be telefragged). That's why I will always take over Duke3D's E4 (The Birth) compared to Ultimate Doom's Thy Flesh Consumed any day. It was decently balanced and the levels are also way more fun and even introduce something new (the 3 new enemies and the Expander). Ultimate Doom just adds new levels and although are nicely designed, they are unbalanced and very inconsistent. I was never a fan of Doom's expansions (Thy Flesh Consumed, Master Levels and Final Doom) because they don't add ANYTHING new other than textures and music and few bullshit hard levels. Same applies to Heretic and Hexen expansions, again just new levels, no new content, disappointing. I wish they made new weapons and enemies and items, like Doom 2 added to first Doom. And like how Quake Mission Packs (talking about Quake 1, 2 and 3) added a lot of new stuff, making the expansions absolutely worth playing, heck I always thought Quake 1 Mission Packs were some of the best addons ever created for video games, that's how I wish Doom expansions were also made, with new content. I realize id was busy with Quake at that time but they could have at the very least incorporate SSG and some D2 monsters into Ultimate Doom E4. As for NRFTL and SIGIL, they are much better than previous Doom expansions (although I think Plutonia was also pretty well designed and very challenging at times) but they still don't add anything new. I don't know if I should count the recent community addons (Double Impact, No End In Sight, Deathless and Back to Saturn X E1) as official addons but once again they are just nice new levels and that's it (BTSX adding a ton of new textures and new music). Hope to see more high quality community works getting selected as official addons.
I guess I will stop writing now, there goes my hour.
If I missed a point, I will write it later. Sorry if I didn't talk about everything and started talking about other things, it's just I have to talk a LOT of things about Doom games.
This post has been edited by RunningDuke: 15 July 2020 - 10:43 PM
#3736 Posted 15 July 2020 - 11:42 PM
RunningDuke, on 15 July 2020 - 10:39 PM, said:
I also don't like when my shots miss at close range, I even remember recently having to use 4-5 shells to kill a pinky. And yeah I admit I don't use chainsaw that much because it is quite risky to chainsaw a demon even if theory sounds like a good idea, there is so much shotgun ammo laying around (in original game and even in mapsets like DTWID) that you can use it most of time and still end up with 100 shells at end of level (50 without a backpack) provided you occasionally switch to chaingun and you don't pick up shell boxes when you don't need them. In ZDoom, the flawed collision is fixed, thus you can punch/chainsaw enemies quite easily which works in your advantage but it can be cheating to kill a Mancubus or even a Spider Mastermind with just your berserk fists. Whereas in vanilla it was nearly impossible to hit them with melee attacks.
This really is the dealbreaker for me. If other ports fixed this I might be more open to trying them, but as far as I know the Z-family are the only ones to do away with that atrocious thing. I know it can make some things be taken out in unintended ways, but as far as I'm concerned that's normal unintentional stuff in games, especially these old ones. I usually don't do that kind of thing when I play anyway (short of when I absolutely without question need to, but I haven't had to yet), so it doesn't factor in with me. The bug, on the other hand, which I'm pretty sure is unintentional... yeah that can go straight to hell. I struggle to express how much I hate that bug. If it wasn't for those source ports I would legitimately never touch Doom in any shape or form ever again. It is that unpleasant and insufferable for me.
RunningDuke, on 15 July 2020 - 10:39 PM, said:
I don't know if I should count the recent community addons (Double Impact, No End In Sight, Deathless and Back to Saturn X E1) as official addons but once again they are just nice new levels and that's it (BTSX adding a ton of new textures and new music). Hope to see more high quality community works getting selected as official addons.
Whether you do or not, I'm still hoping id picks some level sets that don't suffer from bullshit, as I have problems with each of those (minus Deathless which I haven't actually played. It's by Jimmy though so I figure it's probably mostly fine? Even when he decides to get stupid with it, it's nowhere even close to what is the standard). Hell, I referred to two of them directly in my long rant post (NEIS and DI).
Though I admit my hopes aren't high. Even if they are aware of the problem (which I cynically doubt), I myself can attest after years of searching that such level sets are extraordinarily rare.
The music still universally kicks ass, though. No matter how much I despise like 99% of the community's output, I can't ever say the soundtracks aren't some of the best MIDI compositions I've ever heard.
I just wish they didn't come packaged with such pure unbridled frustration.
- The Sarien Encounter
-
#3737 Posted 16 July 2020 - 05:04 AM
MrFlibble, on 12 July 2020 - 11:01 AM, said:
I love how he called Event Horizon "that other, better Doom movie"
I still haven't seen this movie. Have to remedy that.
#3738 Posted 17 July 2020 - 09:56 AM
Ninety-Six, on 15 July 2020 - 11:42 PM, said:
This really is the dealbreaker for me. If other ports fixed this I might be more open to trying them, but as far as I know the Z-family are the only ones to do away with that atrocious thing. I know it can make some things be taken out in unintended ways, but as far as I'm concerned that's normal unintentional stuff in games, especially these old ones. I usually don't do that kind of thing when I play anyway (short of when I absolutely without question need to, but I haven't had to yet), so it doesn't factor in with me. The bug, on the other hand, which I'm pretty sure is unintentional... yeah that can go straight to hell. I struggle to express how much I hate that bug. If it wasn't for those source ports I would legitimately never touch Doom in any shape or form ever again. It is that unpleasant and insufferable for me.
Whether you do or not, I'm still hoping id picks some level sets that don't suffer from bullshit, as I have problems with each of those (minus Deathless which I haven't actually played. It's by Jimmy though so I figure it's probably mostly fine? Even when he decides to get stupid with it, it's nowhere even close to what is the standard). Hell, I referred to two of them directly in my long rant post (NEIS and DI).
Though I admit my hopes aren't high. Even if they are aware of the problem (which I cynically doubt), I myself can attest after years of searching that such level sets are extraordinarily rare.
The music still universally kicks ass, though. No matter how much I despise like 99% of the community's output, I can't ever say the soundtracks aren't some of the best MIDI compositions I've ever heard.
I just wish they didn't come packaged with such pure unbridled frustration.
Whether you do or not, I'm still hoping id picks some level sets that don't suffer from bullshit, as I have problems with each of those (minus Deathless which I haven't actually played. It's by Jimmy though so I figure it's probably mostly fine? Even when he decides to get stupid with it, it's nowhere even close to what is the standard). Hell, I referred to two of them directly in my long rant post (NEIS and DI).
Though I admit my hopes aren't high. Even if they are aware of the problem (which I cynically doubt), I myself can attest after years of searching that such level sets are extraordinarily rare.
The music still universally kicks ass, though. No matter how much I despise like 99% of the community's output, I can't ever say the soundtracks aren't some of the best MIDI compositions I've ever heard.
I just wish they didn't come packaged with such pure unbridled frustration.
I understand you but honestly I can live even with that bug, as annoying as it is. Personally, I prefer to play vanilla mapsets in Chocolate Doom rather than playing them in ZDoom even if for example I were to play ZDoom with classic controls, classic Doom status bar enabled and most compatibility settings set to Doom, it still wouldn't have that vanilla feeling IMO as ZDoom changes far too many things (some of which can't even be turned off) and I think even with compatibility settings set to Doom (strict), you will still run into maps that can't be completed in ZDoom, which work fine in vanilla (or ports with very high vanilla accuracy). I even remember many years ago (back in 2012-2013) when I used to play various mapsets in ZDoom with Aeons of Death mod, I often ran into maps that couldn't be completed without cheating. Sure, I was using a gameplay mod and the compatibility settings were set to Default but my point still stands that ZDoom plays better when playing wads designed for it, like that wonderful Knee Deep in ZDoom. Like I said, feel free to use what port you want but for me I just never understood (at least in last few years when I became a purist) why would people prefer to use ZDoom to play the IWADS and vanilla mapsets when ZDoom is a modern port that is best used to play the wads created for it? I know it is one of the most popular ports and it has a lot of features, supports other Doom engine games and it is seen as an universal port (at least GZDoom, which is ZDoom with OpenGL rendering and has additional features and supports maps made for it that ZDoom wouldn't run) for being able to play almost every wad out there. But still, I rather play wads as intended. As when I use ZDoom family source ports, I use mouselook and have the jump and crouch keys configured, so I tend to jump/crouch sometimes (some ZDoom/GZDoom wads even require these features) and this may break level design as well.
Another annoying thing is what I mentioned in the above post, the fact that some mappers use ZDoom as their port to playtest their wad even if they made a vanilla wad. Take for example a recent (2018-2019) megawad for Ultimate Doom called Lunar Catastrophe. I haven't played it yet (will play after I finish KDIZD) but I remember being disappointed when I read it was made with ZDoom in mind and it is broken in Crispy, Eternity and PrBoom+ because some levels have some doors that don't open unless playing in ZDoom, according to a couple of posts I read in the release thread at Doomworld. I know this is the mappers fault but I wanted to point that as well. Maybe the wad should be fixed and added in the Unity ports? I wouldn't mind that wad getting added as it is similar to DTWID in style and it was nominated for cacowards.
I haven't played yet NEIS, Deathless and BTSX, I will eventually get to them at a later time. However, aside from the very recent playthrough I started in Eternity, I did play Double Impact once many years ago in ZDoom with AEOD mod as said above (it was one of many wads I played with that mod at that time) and I only remember the last level being difficult and since the addon became official in the Unity ports, I have watched a couple of gameplay videos of it on YouTube in past few months but other than that, I don't remember much. I surely hope next week to finish the wad but thing is I've got other wads to play as well, so I only complete like 2-3 levels at most for each wad every day, depending on level length as well.
And yeah, I hope id picks up a lot more community works as official wads. Aside from a couple of 90s megawads that I would have liked to see (such as Memento Mori 1 and 2, Requiem, Icarus, Hell Revealed, etc), there are also quite a few 2000s wads (most of which are Ultimate Doom wads) and even other popular releases like DTWID series that I want and should be added. Unfortunately as far as I know, there's quite a few reasons why some wads aren't getting added:
-Wads can't contain copyrighted content, such as textures and music from other games. This isn't too bad, the custom music (like in case of Hell Revealed that uses ROTT soundtrack) can be easily removed and just replaced with default Doom/Doom 2 songs. I don't know if there were cases (from the chosen wads) where music was a problem.
-Wads that use DEHACKED can't be added because the Unity Doom ports don't have DEHACKED support. In this case, I think they should implement support or just add new actors directly into the engine for the addons, maybe a way to define new monsters instead of replacing existing monsters/objects.
-All authors must be contacted which is just bullshit (imo) because there are many community projects which have a few missing authors, including the old classic megawads mentioned above, Icarus is problematic due to one of authors, Ty Halderman, that died back in 2015, while for other wads the authors have simply disappeared over time or they can't be contacted anymore. I don't understand why can't they contact a couple (or most) of authors that worked on a specific wad, get their approval and then add stuff like Memento Mori 1, 2 and Requiem, all of which use completely original content, so the above two rules don't apply in cases of the classic megawads mentioned above.
There may be another rule I'm forgetting but the one that I find a bit strict is the last one with getting the approval of ALL authors. Which is what prevents classics and also stuff like DTWID getting added, which should be added as they are some of the best wads.
Either way, I am looking forward to see what other wads they add into the future. We know that BTSX E2 is eventually going to be added but I wouldn't be surprised if another wad gets added next. I know they add a new wad at every 6 weeks, usually on Thursday. So if I'm thinking correctly, next wad should be added on 6th August. I wouldn't mind if they also surprise us with two wads getting added at same time (at least two Ultimate Doom episodes).
Anyway, to end the post, I have to say I managed to finish the first episode of DTWID, with getting 100% in each level (in E1M5 I completed 100% all by myself in all 3 categories, while for the rest levels there was always something I was missing, usually a few items and secrets). The last level of the episode doesn't show level stats but I know I got everything as I watched an YT video to see where are all items and secrets, before I attempted the level (the only time I do that). A few screenshots to post, though this time they aren't very interesting, I admit I don't like taking screenshots while fighting monsters because that would leave me exposed for attacks, so I take screenshots usually when saving my game and quitting.
I also started playing an old ZDoom wad (using old ZDoom version 1.22) called Herian 2, which is sort of a Heretic/Hexen styled wad for Doom 2. Well, since you are using ZDoom, you should try it! The only bad thing I heard (and remember from past years when I played with AEOD) is that some levels are quite confusing! But so far I only completed the first two levels and reached level 3. Not sure if I was supposed to jump to get those secrets in first level, as one of them had lowered the platform when I returned to that area later. There are two things to mention (for completionists at least):
-Old version of ZDoom only shows monsters and secrets on the automap, so you can't tell how many items you got. This isn't an issue if you use the latest version of ZDoom which shows items as well (if you enable in menu, as by default it only shows monsters and secrets).
-The intermission screen (in Herian 2) only appears at every 2 levels, so you can't tell how many items you got in first level for example. Once again this isn't a problem if you use newer ZDoom and it doesn't bother me, I don't lose anything by not getting all items (whether I get them or not, but I still try to get as many as possible). Additionally, the second level had some unreachable health bonuses (which show as water droplets in the mod, making them harder to spot), so it's impossible to get them all anyway.
That's all for now. I was thinking to starting a wad in PrBoom+ (like the recently released Akeldama, which is a vanilla compatible wad) and another wad in Crispy Doom (so I have a wad for each source port) but I think I will leave that for next week. Yes I know it's better to finish a wad before getting to another one but I think it's more interesting to play many wads at same time (and to also avoid getting bored of playing the same wad in same day), even if you finish like 2 levels daily for each wad, all these levels add up and in a week you will finish multiple wads (assuming they are all around an episode length and not a full megawad), making you feel like you accomplished much more.
One more thing: if anyone is wondering, the screenshots seem to be shown in a random order instead of the uploaded order. The same applies to the screenshots I have posted in the other topic about what Duke maps/mods we have been playing.
EDIT: Some fixes.
This post has been edited by RunningDuke: 17 July 2020 - 10:18 AM
#3739 Posted 17 July 2020 - 09:02 PM
RunningDuke, on 17 July 2020 - 09:56 AM, said:
but for me I just never understood (at least in last few years when I became a purist) why would people prefer to use ZDoom to play the IWADS and vanilla mapsets when ZDoom is a modern port that is best used to play the wads created for it?
Because, to be 100% perfectly honest, in my opinion... DOS Doom kinda sucks. I don't like the controls, it's very prone to crashing, there are design decisions that just don't play well with how the game actually functions... I'm only willing to put up with so much.
There is the argument for "as intended," but like I said, with some aspects what they intended and what actually happens can be on two separate continents (see about the infinitely tall actors trait screwing you over sometimes).
#3740 Posted 20 July 2020 - 07:39 AM
Ninety-Six, on 17 July 2020 - 09:02 PM, said:
Because, to be 100% perfectly honest, in my opinion... DOS Doom kinda sucks. I don't like the controls, it's very prone to crashing, there are design decisions that just don't play well with how the game actually functions... I'm only willing to put up with so much.
What about Choco/Cripsy Doom?
- banned!
-
#3741 Posted 20 July 2020 - 08:03 AM
Ninety-Six, on 17 July 2020 - 09:02 PM, said:
Because, to be 100% perfectly honest, in my opinion... DOS Doom kinda sucks. I don't like the controls, it's very prone to crashing, there are design decisions that just don't play well with how the game actually functions... I'm only willing to put up with so much.
This is why I never played it back in the day. I got into FPS when Duke and Quake had been out for a year, and Doom just seemed antiquated. Only finished 1-2 with Zdoom.
- Let's go Brandon!
-
#3742 Posted 20 July 2020 - 11:26 AM
I guarantee you John Romero prefers modern control schemes too.
- The Sarien Encounter
-
#3743 Posted 20 July 2020 - 11:44 AM
I stuck with keyboard-only controls right up until a friend introduced me to Half-Life, then I migrated to the mouse and numpad. I was quite a master at Duke3D doing keyboard only. I remember going with my dad to a computer show one year and one of the computers had a MP game of Quake 2 running, and I played it entirely with keyboard....and I didn't do too well. I used to think in my ignorant youth that playing with a mouse was "too easy."
#3744 Posted 20 July 2020 - 06:00 PM
Psh...amateurs. I beat Jedi Knight and Half-Life keyboard only. I probably still could. The real problem I've found with just keyboard controls is having to strafe and turn. Really makes those ring fingers sore. Generally I don't do that anymore unless I don't have a choice.
#3745 Posted 20 July 2020 - 07:08 PM
MrFlibble, on 20 July 2020 - 07:39 AM, said:
What about Choco/Cripsy Doom?
Chocolate is just DOS without the need of an emulator. That's kind of the point of its existence. So everything I said about DOS applies.
Crispy, on the other hand, is a different story. It's been on my radar for a while. It looks like it offers a lot of the features I enjoy in zdoom (level stats, crosshair, even native colored blood support) and some bug fixes, though I don't know if it fixes the hitscan bug. That's one of the reasons I haven't tried it. The other admittedly doesn't apply on this machine, but the 640x480 resolution I was a bit afraid of since my actual computer didn't like resolution changes much.
Though looking at it again, it sounds like it might actually be an emulated 480p rather than a legitimate one? If that's the case I might have ignored it this long for no reason.
#3746 Posted 20 July 2020 - 10:03 PM
Well, if it wasn't for the original DOS version, ZDoom wouldn't even exist! Now I admit ZDoom has really smooth controls and mouse movements but when comes to original levels (and vanilla wads), I don't like using modern controls (and whatever else ZDoom added like blood splats on walls, bullet holes in walls, etc), I just prefer using DOSBox/Chocolate Doom, Crispy sometimes for limit removing wads, Eternity and PrBoom+ for most limit removing and Boom compatible wads. I wouldn't mind if one day I completely gave up DOS Doom, Chocolate and Crispy and only used Eternity, PrBoom+, ZDoom and GZDoom for the majority of wads but I think DOS/Chocolate have their place in certain Doom wads as well, at least 90s megawads for DOS Doom (like MM series, Requiem, Icarus) and DTWID series for Chocolate Doom.
As for Crispy Doom, I don't think it fixes the hitscan bug but I don't see why would someone prefer Crispy Doom over PrBoom+ which is also having vanilla compatibility (with complevel parameter), has automap stats, supports not only limit removing but also boom compatible wads and I believe it has crosshair as well (?). The only thing I dislike at PrBoom+ is how is the port set up when you first run it, you must tweak it to make it look close to vanilla and I have it running exactly like how Eternity looks in screenshot I posted above (which in turn looks similar to Chocolate screenshots I put above, I mean in terms of the status bar filling whole screen, not how squashed it looks when you play PrBoom+ on higher resolutions for example, though PrBoom+ itself also has aspect ratio options unlike many other ports, so even if you play on highest resolution you can set the text and status bar to be in original Doom format, just the way I like it) but other than that, it is a very good modern, yet classic, Doom experience. Crispy Doom has also some features I don't like, such as how the Save Game is grayed out during demos (which doesn't happen in vanilla, chocolate, Eternity and PrBoom+) and other pointless additions (though I admit it also has a few interesting features) that just weren't necessary for a slightly enhanced Chocolate fork. I even found in past years Crispy Doom to be quite glitchy at times but maybe the port was enhanced a lot since then, I mean I currently have the latest 5.8.0 installed and I will use it to play FreeDoom and Romero's E1M4B and E1M8B, all of which I never played before (though I did play many years ago an old version of FreeDoom using ZDoom). I will see these days...
For now, yesterday I played more Herian 2 (reached level 4) and KDIZD and did second level 100% as well. I had to look up on YouTube to see the last secret (which contained the last armor bonus I was searching) and of course having to hunt down the last few health/armor bonuses (especially armor bonuses due to how they well blend into background) is really annoying and completely drains me!
I will see today with playing DTWID E2, continuing Double Impact and maybe starting that recent Akeldama megawad, I don't think I can hope to finish it before the end of month before Doomworld guys are finishing it (I know they are playing it in their Megawad Club). I was thinking to join Doomworld as well (and share my thoughts in some topics as well) and I know there's a few members here on Duke4.net who would tell me to not do that (I admit I also don't like certain members I've seen at DW) but I hope I can integrate myself pretty well. I mean I have been lurking on Doomworld for the last 5 years and I don't think I will ever get banned for voicing my own opinions (in regards to playing wads and how I play them, etc).
EDIT: Ninety-Six, yes I understand you (and I even agree with some things you said) that you don't like vanilla at all and I can attest that if the original DOS version of Doom wasn't updated so many times, I wouldn't have liked to play for example Doom 1.1 (my first version of Doom was shareware 1.2, imagine my surprise back in 2011-2012 when I found 1.1 and even 1.0 exist and saw them on YouTube first time, this is how I also found Nightmare skill didn't even exist and was added in 1.2) because I also think the old 0.99 (1.0) and 1.1 are buggy as shit and even 1.2 seems a bit buggy and it wasn't until versions 1.666 and 1.9 where original DOS Doom established a standard in vanilla maps and mods (though later versions such as 1.9 and especially Ultimate/Final Doom versions, started changing various behaviors of Doom that broke demos and certain wads). So even though I am a purist, I'm not that kind of purist. I prefer to play Ultimate Doom in its entirety in DOSBox unlike others who prefer Registered 1.1 or 1.2 which are the earliest Doom versions and they claim that it's the best experience, which is just bullshit because:
1) I never had the registered version of Doom (other than in last couple of years using unofficial downgrade patch to convert Ultimate to Registered 1.1, just so I can separately patch to 1.2, 1.666 and 1.9 and look at various differences and probably play/test certain old 1994 wads that were only meant for registered versions, which unfortunately are broken in Ultimate Doom, see Return to Phobos and UAC DEAD), therefore for me Registered doesn't really exist, to me Shareware (1.2, 1.666 and 1.9) and Ultimate versions truly exist, so these are what I usually play in DOSBox and the shareware only for E1 (mostly 1.2 and 1.666 for their more interesting intro demos and the differently colored bar on top, I liked the blue bar for first Doom 1.2 and red bar for Doom 2 1.666, a shame that these were replaced with ugly gray bar for 1.9 and Ultimate/Final). Yes like I said there are quite a few things I don't like at versions 1.9 as well (like the shittier shareware Doom demos, registered demos are same as from 1.666 and the Ultimate Doom demo from E4M2 just plain sucks, while Doom 2 had the first demo replaced in 1.9 with a shorter and shittier demo) but to me they are still the best versions for vanilla experience if you plan to play in DOSBox or other source ports. Well in general it is best to use latest version of IWAD when playing in source ports, so it's all good.
2) Ultimate Doom is the definitive version of game and complete experience and it makes sense to have all 4 episodes in same place and you can just go from one episode to another after you finished each (actually when I finish an episode I quit game and come back later to start next episode, so this reason doesn't really apply) and unlike Duke3D where I had full version from start and later I got Atomic as well, it is actually worth playing 1.3D for first 3 episodes because there are quite a lot of differences between 1.3D and 1.4 which makes 1.3D a lot more unique (and it's actually a lot more common), so even if you don't care no matter if you play 1.3D for first 3 episodes and 1.4/1.5 for E4 or play Atomic Edition in its entirety, you will still have fun and there is no wrong way to play Duke3D (unless you play the shitty ass iOS/Android port from 2009-2011 or WT port for first 4 episodes). For Doom not only there are a LOT of versions (at least 10 versions of first Doom, yes including the Sybex 1.25, beta 1.4/1.5/1.6 and the non significant 1.8 that no one cared about) but also the Registered version is really rare (I wonder how many people had the registered version of Doom back in the day? I know the game sold pretty well, 1 million copies I think, with the shareware installed on 10 million computers, much more than Windows 95 was installed!) and I don't see the point even as someone who likes having/owning different versions of games, just forget about registered existing, to me just play either shareware (if you don't own Doom at all) or Ultimate (if you own it, which I imagine most do), then play in DOSBox and use whatever source port you want for playing custom Doom wads!
And yes I have also noticed that John Romero himself prefers to play the game using source ports like Doomsday (which he used in that old IGN video) and ZDoom (what he used to playtest his own SIGIL wad, glad some members of community helped him with testing in other ports or else we would have SIGIL requiring ZDoom for no reason at all). And say what you want about vanilla Doom being glitchy as hell but this is how I grew up, with shareware versions (1.2, 1.666 and 1.9) of first Doom and a pirated v1.666 of Doom 2. If I didn't play these vanilla versions or never had Doom at all and discover it later, I would have probably used ZDoom to play it, which was actually my main port for 5 years (in 2007-2012).
And one more thing: I'm 100% aware of the annoying limitations and shit like infinitely tall actors, the hitscan/blockmap bug and even that rare save glitch where if you save the game on ledge, upon reloading you fall through and can even get you stuck in an unwinnable state and finally the engine limitations (like not being able to look up/down, which was added in Heretic, Hexen and Strife and jumping which was added in Hexen and Strife) but despite all that, there is something that makes me wanna go back to original DOS Doom and want to play as intended. Which is why I don't use ZDoom to play majority wads like I used to until 2012. If I did that, it wouldn't feel like Doom anymore, it feels like Doom recreated in another engine. Even if I would enjoy looking up/down, jumping (as long as I don't break level design) and being able to pass below/over monsters, it just feels a bit strange to experience Doom that way. If the official ports (like the recent Bethesda/Unity ports) would have added option for looking up/down, jumping and turning off infinitely tall actors, I would have no problem with these options existing in an official Doom port. At this moment it's ZDoom family only (although Eternity and even Crispy Doom have options for jumping but in these cases I never use, only in ZDoom family ports since there are many ZDoom/GZDoom wads that require jumping and crouching, so it's natural to have the jump key set up in this case).
That's all, sorry for this wall of text, I am sick of writing messages for hours, I will take a small break from this topic. I guess I will go to play more Doom and actually make progress instead of wasting my time with walls of texts no one likes to read and for what? For voicing my opinions in regards to vanilla that no one seems to like these days? I mean let's be honest, the reason why I like both Duke3D and Quake more than Doom is also because of freedom of movement, I like being able to look up/down, jump and crouch (just jump in Quake, though you can also crouch in later Quake games) more than in case of Doom where I'm restricted and although ZDoom adds these features and quite a lot of quality of improvements, it also changes the core gameplay of Doom. So you can break the level design if you weren't supposed to jump or crouch through windows or look up and shoot at a switch that you were meant to access later when you can reach it.
Honestly I'm all for playing well designed ZDoom mods that make use of jumping and crouching to access new secret areas and such (like Knee Deep in ZDoom which I often mention due to being one of most influential ZDoom mods ever made) but you can't go wrong with a vanilla/limit removing/boom compatible wad being played every now and then (using Eternity and PrBoom+ for example) for a more vanilla feeling, even if BOOM source port also changed some vanilla stuff (and maybe fixed the blockmap bug as well? not sure here).
Ninety-Six, can you also answer some parts of my previous post about the other possible candidates of being included in the new Bethesda/Unity ports? I feel like we should also talk more about that, since I am still looking forward to the wads they are adding to the recent ports. I'm sick of talking about vanilla to be honest!
EDIT 2: One more thing that I forgot to mention is even in past few years I played a couple of random wads (such as old 1994-1995 wads and more recent releases) in GZDoom (sometimes even with Brutal Doom mod) and I've had many wads (though some worked fine) glitch on me and not work properly and I'm not making this up, I did have maps I got stuck because they didn't work properly in GZDoom. The first time I played D2TWID (back in 2014), I played in GZDoom with the enhancement mod Doom Expanded and then when I got to the Commander Keen secret levels, the super secret boss fight with Dopefish didn't work right, instead of requiring a lot of shots, the Dopefish died in one hit because it still acted like Wolfenstein nazi that it was supposed to be replaced. And then I got stuck in the level with no way out, as when killing the Dopefish, the level was supposed to end and advance to next, so I had to use changemap command (not map because I needed to retain my inventory). So yeah I don't recommend using ZDoom/GZDoom when playing vanilla styled wads, whether you use a gameplay mod or not, you will experience glitches like I did. And once again, I'm NOT making this up to say that vanilla is better, it all happened! Use the intended port that the author has tested with (if it's a more modern wad) which should be mentioned in readme file and if it's an older wad, then use something like Crispy Doom and PrBoom+ with the proper complevel. I guarantee all this should work fine!
EDIT 3: Also I have zero nostalgia for episodes 2, 3 and 4 for Doom (and even the secret level in E1 as I could never find it as kid), which is why I don't like them that much (E4 is slightly better than E2 and E3 in terms of design but suffers in gameplay as it's a very inconsistent episode with the first two levels having frustrating difficulty) and usually when I refer to Doom 1, I mostly mean Knee Deep in the Dead and if I refer to Ultimate Doom, then I not only refer to E4 but also the whole package.
Now I admit ZDoom has really smooth controls and mouse movements but when comes to original levels (and vanilla wads), I don't like using modern controls (and whatever else ZDoom added like blood splats on walls, bullet holes in walls, etc), I just prefer using DOSBox/Chocolate Doom, Crispy sometimes for limit removing wads, Eternity and PrBoom+ for most limit removing and Boom compatible wads. I wouldn't mind if one day I completely gave up DOS Doom, Chocolate and Crispy and only used Eternity, PrBoom+, ZDoom and GZDoom for the majority of wads but I think DOS/Chocolate have their place in certain Doom wads as well, at least 90s megawads for DOS Doom (like MM series, Requiem, Icarus) and DTWID series for Chocolate Doom.As for Crispy Doom, I don't think it fixes the hitscan bug but I don't see why would someone prefer Crispy Doom over PrBoom+ which is also having vanilla compatibility (with complevel parameter), has automap stats, supports not only limit removing but also boom compatible wads and I believe it has crosshair as well (?). The only thing I dislike at PrBoom+ is how is the port set up when you first run it, you must tweak it to make it look close to vanilla and I have it running exactly like how Eternity looks in screenshot I posted above (which in turn looks similar to Chocolate screenshots I put above, I mean in terms of the status bar filling whole screen, not how squashed it looks when you play PrBoom+ on higher resolutions for example, though PrBoom+ itself also has aspect ratio options unlike many other ports, so even if you play on highest resolution you can set the text and status bar to be in original Doom format, just the way I like it) but other than that, it is a very good modern, yet classic, Doom experience. Crispy Doom has also some features I don't like, such as how the Save Game is grayed out during demos (which doesn't happen in vanilla, chocolate, Eternity and PrBoom+) and other pointless additions (though I admit it also has a few interesting features) that just weren't necessary for a slightly enhanced Chocolate fork. I even found in past years Crispy Doom to be quite glitchy at times but maybe the port was enhanced a lot since then, I mean I currently have the latest 5.8.0 installed and I will use it to play FreeDoom and Romero's E1M4B and E1M8B, all of which I never played before (though I did play many years ago an old version of FreeDoom using ZDoom). I will see these days...
For now, yesterday I played more Herian 2 (reached level 4) and KDIZD and did second level 100% as well. I had to look up on YouTube to see the last secret (which contained the last armor bonus I was searching) and of course having to hunt down the last few health/armor bonuses (especially armor bonuses due to how they well blend into background) is really annoying and completely drains me!
I will see today with playing DTWID E2, continuing Double Impact and maybe starting that recent Akeldama megawad, I don't think I can hope to finish it before the end of month before Doomworld guys are finishing it (I know they are playing it in their Megawad Club). I was thinking to join Doomworld as well (and share my thoughts in some topics as well) and I know there's a few members here on Duke4.net who would tell me to not do that (I admit I also don't like certain members I've seen at DW) but I hope I can integrate myself pretty well. I mean I have been lurking on Doomworld for the last 5 years and I don't think I will ever get banned for voicing my own opinions (in regards to playing wads and how I play them, etc).
EDIT: Ninety-Six, yes I understand you (and I even agree with some things you said) that you don't like vanilla at all and I can attest that if the original DOS version of Doom wasn't updated so many times, I wouldn't have liked to play for example Doom 1.1 (my first version of Doom was shareware 1.2, imagine my surprise back in 2011-2012 when I found 1.1 and even 1.0 exist and saw them on YouTube first time, this is how I also found Nightmare skill didn't even exist and was added in 1.2) because I also think the old 0.99 (1.0) and 1.1 are buggy as shit and even 1.2 seems a bit buggy and it wasn't until versions 1.666 and 1.9 where original DOS Doom established a standard in vanilla maps and mods (though later versions such as 1.9 and especially Ultimate/Final Doom versions, started changing various behaviors of Doom that broke demos and certain wads). So even though I am a purist, I'm not that kind of purist. I prefer to play Ultimate Doom in its entirety in DOSBox unlike others who prefer Registered 1.1 or 1.2 which are the earliest Doom versions and they claim that it's the best experience, which is just bullshit because:
1) I never had the registered version of Doom (other than in last couple of years using unofficial downgrade patch to convert Ultimate to Registered 1.1, just so I can separately patch to 1.2, 1.666 and 1.9 and look at various differences and probably play/test certain old 1994 wads that were only meant for registered versions, which unfortunately are broken in Ultimate Doom, see Return to Phobos and UAC DEAD), therefore for me Registered doesn't really exist, to me Shareware (1.2, 1.666 and 1.9) and Ultimate versions truly exist, so these are what I usually play in DOSBox and the shareware only for E1 (mostly 1.2 and 1.666 for their more interesting intro demos and the differently colored bar on top, I liked the blue bar for first Doom 1.2 and red bar for Doom 2 1.666, a shame that these were replaced with ugly gray bar for 1.9 and Ultimate/Final). Yes like I said there are quite a few things I don't like at versions 1.9 as well (like the shittier shareware Doom demos, registered demos are same as from 1.666 and the Ultimate Doom demo from E4M2 just plain sucks, while Doom 2 had the first demo replaced in 1.9 with a shorter and shittier demo) but to me they are still the best versions for vanilla experience if you plan to play in DOSBox or other source ports. Well in general it is best to use latest version of IWAD when playing in source ports, so it's all good.
2) Ultimate Doom is the definitive version of game and complete experience and it makes sense to have all 4 episodes in same place and you can just go from one episode to another after you finished each (actually when I finish an episode I quit game and come back later to start next episode, so this reason doesn't really apply) and unlike Duke3D where I had full version from start and later I got Atomic as well, it is actually worth playing 1.3D for first 3 episodes because there are quite a lot of differences between 1.3D and 1.4 which makes 1.3D a lot more unique (and it's actually a lot more common), so even if you don't care no matter if you play 1.3D for first 3 episodes and 1.4/1.5 for E4 or play Atomic Edition in its entirety, you will still have fun and there is no wrong way to play Duke3D (unless you play the shitty ass iOS/Android port from 2009-2011 or WT port for first 4 episodes). For Doom not only there are a LOT of versions (at least 10 versions of first Doom, yes including the Sybex 1.25, beta 1.4/1.5/1.6 and the non significant 1.8 that no one cared about) but also the Registered version is really rare (I wonder how many people had the registered version of Doom back in the day? I know the game sold pretty well, 1 million copies I think, with the shareware installed on 10 million computers, much more than Windows 95 was installed!) and I don't see the point even as someone who likes having/owning different versions of games, just forget about registered existing, to me just play either shareware (if you don't own Doom at all) or Ultimate (if you own it, which I imagine most do), then play in DOSBox and use whatever source port you want for playing custom Doom wads!
And yes I have also noticed that John Romero himself prefers to play the game using source ports like Doomsday (which he used in that old IGN video) and ZDoom (what he used to playtest his own SIGIL wad, glad some members of community helped him with testing in other ports or else we would have SIGIL requiring ZDoom for no reason at all). And say what you want about vanilla Doom being glitchy as hell but this is how I grew up, with shareware versions (1.2, 1.666 and 1.9) of first Doom and a pirated v1.666 of Doom 2. If I didn't play these vanilla versions or never had Doom at all and discover it later, I would have probably used ZDoom to play it, which was actually my main port for 5 years (in 2007-2012).
And one more thing: I'm 100% aware of the annoying limitations and shit like infinitely tall actors, the hitscan/blockmap bug and even that rare save glitch where if you save the game on ledge, upon reloading you fall through and can even get you stuck in an unwinnable state and finally the engine limitations (like not being able to look up/down, which was added in Heretic, Hexen and Strife and jumping which was added in Hexen and Strife) but despite all that, there is something that makes me wanna go back to original DOS Doom and want to play as intended. Which is why I don't use ZDoom to play majority wads like I used to until 2012. If I did that, it wouldn't feel like Doom anymore, it feels like Doom recreated in another engine. Even if I would enjoy looking up/down, jumping (as long as I don't break level design) and being able to pass below/over monsters, it just feels a bit strange to experience Doom that way. If the official ports (like the recent Bethesda/Unity ports) would have added option for looking up/down, jumping and turning off infinitely tall actors, I would have no problem with these options existing in an official Doom port. At this moment it's ZDoom family only (although Eternity and even Crispy Doom have options for jumping but in these cases I never use, only in ZDoom family ports since there are many ZDoom/GZDoom wads that require jumping and crouching, so it's natural to have the jump key set up in this case).
That's all, sorry for this wall of text, I am sick of writing messages for hours, I will take a small break from this topic. I guess I will go to play more Doom and actually make progress instead of wasting my time with walls of texts no one likes to read and for what? For voicing my opinions in regards to vanilla that no one seems to like these days? I mean let's be honest, the reason why I like both Duke3D and Quake more than Doom is also because of freedom of movement, I like being able to look up/down, jump and crouch (just jump in Quake, though you can also crouch in later Quake games) more than in case of Doom where I'm restricted and although ZDoom adds these features and quite a lot of quality of improvements, it also changes the core gameplay of Doom. So you can break the level design if you weren't supposed to jump or crouch through windows or look up and shoot at a switch that you were meant to access later when you can reach it.
Honestly I'm all for playing well designed ZDoom mods that make use of jumping and crouching to access new secret areas and such (like Knee Deep in ZDoom which I often mention due to being one of most influential ZDoom mods ever made) but you can't go wrong with a vanilla/limit removing/boom compatible wad being played every now and then (using Eternity and PrBoom+ for example) for a more vanilla feeling, even if BOOM source port also changed some vanilla stuff (and maybe fixed the blockmap bug as well? not sure here).
Ninety-Six, can you also answer some parts of my previous post about the other possible candidates of being included in the new Bethesda/Unity ports? I feel like we should also talk more about that, since I am still looking forward to the wads they are adding to the recent ports. I'm sick of talking about vanilla to be honest!
EDIT 2: One more thing that I forgot to mention is even in past few years I played a couple of random wads (such as old 1994-1995 wads and more recent releases) in GZDoom (sometimes even with Brutal Doom mod) and I've had many wads (though some worked fine) glitch on me and not work properly and I'm not making this up, I did have maps I got stuck because they didn't work properly in GZDoom. The first time I played D2TWID (back in 2014), I played in GZDoom with the enhancement mod Doom Expanded and then when I got to the Commander Keen secret levels, the super secret boss fight with Dopefish didn't work right, instead of requiring a lot of shots, the Dopefish died in one hit because it still acted like Wolfenstein nazi that it was supposed to be replaced. And then I got stuck in the level with no way out, as when killing the Dopefish, the level was supposed to end and advance to next, so I had to use changemap command (not map because I needed to retain my inventory). So yeah I don't recommend using ZDoom/GZDoom when playing vanilla styled wads, whether you use a gameplay mod or not, you will experience glitches like I did. And once again, I'm NOT making this up to say that vanilla is better, it all happened! Use the intended port that the author has tested with (if it's a more modern wad) which should be mentioned in readme file and if it's an older wad, then use something like Crispy Doom and PrBoom+ with the proper complevel. I guarantee all this should work fine!
EDIT 3: Also I have zero nostalgia for episodes 2, 3 and 4 for Doom (and even the secret level in E1 as I could never find it as kid), which is why I don't like them that much (E4 is slightly better than E2 and E3 in terms of design but suffers in gameplay as it's a very inconsistent episode with the first two levels having frustrating difficulty) and usually when I refer to Doom 1, I mostly mean Knee Deep in the Dead and if I refer to Ultimate Doom, then I not only refer to E4 but also the whole package.
This post has been edited by RunningDuke: 21 July 2020 - 12:51 AM
#3747 Posted 21 July 2020 - 12:41 PM
RunningDuke, on 20 July 2020 - 10:03 PM, said:
As for Crispy Doom, I don't think it fixes the hitscan bug but I don't see why would someone prefer Crispy Doom over PrBoom+
RunningDuke, on 20 July 2020 - 10:03 PM, said:
The only thing I dislike at PrBoom+ is how is the port set up when you first run it
^That, really. Plus the -complevel shenanigans
RunningDuke, on 20 July 2020 - 10:03 PM, said:
there is something that makes me wanna go back to original DOS Doom and want to play as intended.
The last thing I'll say on this vanilla debate is in regards to this: "as intended" isn't necessarily the same thing as "as released." I rather significantly doubt id wanted the chainsaw to be completely useless, for instance.
RunningDuke, on 20 July 2020 - 10:03 PM, said:
Ninety-Six, can you also answer some parts of my previous post about the other possible candidates of being included in the new Bethesda/Unity ports? I feel like we should also talk more about that, since I am still looking forward to the wads they are adding to the recent ports. I'm sick of talking about vanilla to be honest!
To be honest I'm surprised the DTWID projects haven't been made available, especially since NEIS was released and IIRC that was an offshoot of the first one. For the most part they're packs of fair level design, though I will admit upon replaying them I found them rather dry. Except D2TWiD anyway; that one I seem to enjoy a bit more, though granted I'm not sure if it's because I find the levels better or because I just prefer Doom 2 to the original (or both. They're not mutually exclusive and a lot of the reason I prefer the actual D2 is its more open-ended and arena-styled levels).
I also would like to see some of Paul Corfiatis' body of work be made available. Though a lot of his work is boom/zdoom oriented so I can understand why it's not. That being said Zone 300 should be perfectly fine since every level has only 300 linedefs so it isn't going to break limitations (the only level with more than 300 lines is MAP32, and even then that was a reject from D2TWiD so it was built with vanilla limitations in mind). It also has a killer soundtrack (though the same could be said for the rest of his work too. I will admit I am a bit of a fan of pcorf's music, with like 90% of them being hits with me).
On the topic of soundtracks, I would also really like to see the Plutonia MIDI Project put up. In fact I'd like to see some of the non-map based mods included as addons, things like soundtrack changes or small graphical tweaks that can be loaded with other add-ons or the base mapsets. Obviously I'm not talking things like Simpsons Doom but some of the simpler stuff like the Minor Sprite Fixing project and such.
I've also been having a go at TNT:Revilution lately. And while I haven't yet finished it and it could easily go to crap, every level I've played up to this point has been pretty good (minus the dumpster fire that is MAP16. That is just a miserable level). Given that stuff like NEIS and Double Impact can be on there despite having some really bullshit level design I don't see why TNT:R can't. And while I can't vouch for them yet there might be hope for the Plutonia sequels, Plutonia 2 and the PRCP.
I'd also like to see the Doom Core trilogy get some recognition. It's all by one guy, valkiriforce, but for the most part his level design is consistently solid and doesn't have that much in the way of BS (indeed, his TNT:R levels are some of my favorites. They're really good).
This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 21 July 2020 - 12:48 PM
#3748 Posted 21 July 2020 - 10:16 PM
Quote
^That, really. Plus the -complevel shenanigans
I admit that was exactly what turned me off from using PrBoom+ many years ago, these two reasons: the complevel and the visuals. I had no idea why the port was set up like that and why almost everyone who used it (when I watched YouTube videos of it being used or looked at screenshots posted on Doomworld) had weird resolution/aspect ratio set up and also the fact GlBoom+ looks so ugly and uses an outdated OpenGL renderer. Once I managed to set it up correctly (I only use PrBoom+, didn't touch the GlBoom+ because I don't care about it) and figured out the -complevel parameter and exactly how it works, it became one of my favorite ports and that way I can play a lot of Boom compatible wads in a classic way (instead of relying on ZDoom based ports) and I will not have trouble with Eternity's lack of compatibility levels either.
Also if you don't believe me, I have screenshots I made recently of Akeldama (in PrBoom+) and Double Impact (in Eternity). As you can see, I have both set up with classic status bar and classic looks and feeling. Well, Eternity is already set up like that the first time you start it but PrBoom+ really requires some tweaking when you first run it, then you can make it look just like in the screenshot I have. Pure, classic Doom feeling right here.
Quote
The last thing I'll say on this vanilla debate is in regards to this: "as intended" isn't necessarily the same thing as "as released." I rather significantly doubt id wanted the chainsaw to be completely useless, for instance.
You are right, I don't think id intended to have that blockmap bug in first place with chainsaw being useless and other weird quirks that vanilla has. These should have been fixed long ago, now it's too late, especially since from what I read, the recent Unity ports have to preserve vanilla demos as well. Not sure what are the main things fixed in Boom and MBF for example because I will eventually get into playing Boom and MBF compatible wads in the following weeks and for instance I'm not sure if Boom fixes the blockmap bug.
Ninety-Six, on 21 July 2020 - 12:41 PM, said:
To be honest I'm surprised the DTWID projects haven't been made available, especially since NEIS was released and IIRC that was an offshoot of the first one. For the most part they're packs of fair level design, though I will admit upon replaying them I found them rather dry. Except D2TWiD anyway; that one I seem to enjoy a bit more, though granted I'm not sure if it's because I find the levels better or because I just prefer Doom 2 to the original (or both. They're not mutually exclusive and a lot of the reason I prefer the actual D2 is its more open-ended and arena-styled levels).
I also would like to see some of Paul Corfiatis' body of work be made available. Though a lot of his work is boom/zdoom oriented so I can understand why it's not. That being said Zone 300 should be perfectly fine since every level has only 300 linedefs so it isn't going to break limitations (the only level with more than 300 lines is MAP32, and even then that was a reject from D2TWiD so it was built with vanilla limitations in mind). It also has a killer soundtrack (though the same could be said for the rest of his work too. I will admit I am a bit of a fan of pcorf's music, with like 90% of them being hits with me).
On the topic of soundtracks, I would also really like to see the Plutonia MIDI Project put up. In fact I'd like to see some of the non-map based mods included as addons, things like soundtrack changes or small graphical tweaks that can be loaded with other add-ons or the base mapsets. Obviously I'm not talking things like Simpsons Doom but some of the simpler stuff like the Minor Sprite Fixing project and such.
I've also been having a go at TNT:Revilution lately. And while I haven't yet finished it and it could easily go to crap, every level I've played up to this point has been pretty good (minus the dumpster fire that is MAP16. That is just a miserable level). Given that stuff like NEIS and Double Impact can be on there despite having some really bullshit level design I don't see why TNT:R can't. And while I can't vouch for them yet there might be hope for the Plutonia sequels, Plutonia 2 and the PRCP.
I'd also like to see the Doom Core trilogy get some recognition. It's all by one guy, valkiriforce, but for the most part his level design is consistently solid and doesn't have that much in the way of BS (indeed, his TNT:R levels are some of my favorites. They're really good).
I also would like to see some of Paul Corfiatis' body of work be made available. Though a lot of his work is boom/zdoom oriented so I can understand why it's not. That being said Zone 300 should be perfectly fine since every level has only 300 linedefs so it isn't going to break limitations (the only level with more than 300 lines is MAP32, and even then that was a reject from D2TWiD so it was built with vanilla limitations in mind). It also has a killer soundtrack (though the same could be said for the rest of his work too. I will admit I am a bit of a fan of pcorf's music, with like 90% of them being hits with me).
On the topic of soundtracks, I would also really like to see the Plutonia MIDI Project put up. In fact I'd like to see some of the non-map based mods included as addons, things like soundtrack changes or small graphical tweaks that can be loaded with other add-ons or the base mapsets. Obviously I'm not talking things like Simpsons Doom but some of the simpler stuff like the Minor Sprite Fixing project and such.
I've also been having a go at TNT:Revilution lately. And while I haven't yet finished it and it could easily go to crap, every level I've played up to this point has been pretty good (minus the dumpster fire that is MAP16. That is just a miserable level). Given that stuff like NEIS and Double Impact can be on there despite having some really bullshit level design I don't see why TNT:R can't. And while I can't vouch for them yet there might be hope for the Plutonia sequels, Plutonia 2 and the PRCP.
I'd also like to see the Doom Core trilogy get some recognition. It's all by one guy, valkiriforce, but for the most part his level design is consistently solid and doesn't have that much in the way of BS (indeed, his TNT:R levels are some of my favorites. They're really good).
Yeah, as far as I know DTWID series haven't been made available because two of the rules:
-Not being able to contact all authors (both the first DTWID and D2TWID have a lot of authors that worked on projects, would have been nice to add them anyway even if one author or two are unreachable)
-D2TWID uses DEHACKED and the new port doesn't support that, other than that it would have been nice to be added due to having Commander Keen stuff included which is fine since they still own the rights to Commander Keen.
Yes, adding Paul Corfiatis' wads would be pretty sweet. I really liked 2002: A Doom Odyssey (although I played it in ZDoom in past, both with and without gameplay mods, due to having 2 secret levels that can only be reached in ZDoom) and it's one of the wads I hope it gets added because I'm sure the author is still around (along with 2 other guest mappers that worked on the wad, I believe) and that way it would also be fully playable in the new Unity port as well, instead of being limited to ZDoom only, which is weird since Eternity also has its own MAPINFO lump called EMAPINFO. However Eternity is a very underrated port and most people don't seem to bother with adding EMAPINFO lump as well, just the main MAPINFO lump for ZDoom ports only (see Lunar Catastrophe). I haven't played Zone 300, so I can't comment on it yet. I agree that the music that Paul Corfiatis makes is really good!
The Plutonia sequels (Plutonia 2 and PRCP) would also be cool to be added but again both suffer from having a lot of authors that worked on the project which can't be contacted, either way I hope they sort it out soon as Plutonia 2 alone absolutely deserves to be included, as it has fully original content (with exception of a Duke3D song which can be easily removed for copyright reasons). I remember playing both (although only the first couple of levels) using ZDoom/GZDoom many years ago and I hope in next weeks I will play through them. Funnily enough, before I started downloading the wads I started playing, I decided to have a go at idgames' Random File option and alongside mostly shitty wads I got (and some very old sprite replacements mods), one of the choices I got was PRCP. However I didn't play it because I wanted to play DTWID first, then I will play UDTWID, then D2TWID, then Plutonia sequels and then TNT sequels/spinoffs.
As for TNT Revilution, that would be cool to be added as well, although it again has many authors that worked on it and it has DEHACKED (and heard about MAP30 having those new enemies using Turret sprites from Duke3D), so until they sort this out, it can't be added. Also haven't played the wad yet, I only watched few videos of it on YouTube but I hope it gets added eventually! I even heard of the TNT 2 Devilution sequel to TNT that is still in progress and hope it gets released someday.
By Doom Core Trilogy, you mean the Doom Core, Reverie and Eternally Yours wads, right? I know they were released recently (I think?) in a single wad called Doom Core Trilogy but I haven't played this stuff yet (it's on my to do list, as are all wads released so far) and I know it is ZDoom exclusive due to MAPINFO once again and no one bothering to mention and test in Eternity. Maybe I will find a way to contact valkiriforce and suggest him to add an EMAPINFO lump and make the megawad (or gigawad in this case) playable in Eternity as well. Otherwise, I guess I will have to use ZDoom here and only if playing the wads separately, each in the intended port (Chocolate Doom I guess, I'm not sure if Eternally Yours is a vanilla wad, I know Reverie is for sure, not entirely sure about Doom Core but I'd say yes). Oh wait, sorry if I talked again about vanilla and ZDoom, that wasn't intentional and I don't mean to hate on ZDoom especially since it's the port you are using. I just have a slight dislike for being the most popular source port and being used even if the wad doesn't really require it, I wouldn't see myself enjoying much a vanilla mapset in ZDoom if I'm mouselooking, jumping and crouching everywhere to access secret areas or accidentally break the level design. Yes sometimes I'm a bit weird like that but I usually try to refrain myself from doing that, it's not like I'm jumping and crouching all time but it is very tempting when you have the keys set up and you see a platform you can't reach yet. Unless the author disabled jumping and crouching in the MAPINFO lump, then I'm okay with that for the most part. If not, I guess I will combine with a gameplay mod to spice things up.
Plutonia MIDI Pack should definitely be added and actually integrated into main Plutonia IWAD and also I think the Minor Sprite Fixing Project should be integrated into all the IWADS as well (as far as I know only BTSX addon includes the extra frames of DoomGuy, zombies and imp) I'm not sure why they haven't done that already, considering they did fix even few errors in the original levels (only levels that were changed were E1M4, E4M1 and MAP06). They should have gone further and also fixed the unreachable secrets in maps E4M3, E4M7, MAP15 and MAP27 (and maybe others in Master Levels, TNT and Plutonia, not sure which levels as I haven't played them in years) and made if there are no secrets in maps, instead of showing 0%, it will show 100% (like ZDoom based ports), same applies to monsters and items if there are maps that don't contain any of them.
Also for more quality of life improvements, they should also include the unused firing frames for the pistol and BFG as seen here on TCRF pages of Doom and Doom 2
As bonus, here are all my suggestions of wads that should be added to the Unity ports (the ones in Bold are megawads) which I collected in past few months (if I'm missing something, I will include later):
Spoiler
Spoiler
Additionally, I'd also like to see Heretic and Hexen remastered in same way the Doom games were and with addon system too, I can imagine for Heretic we would have Curse of D'Sparil as a possible addon, while for Hexen I can only think of two wads (Shadows of Cronos and Curse of the Lost Gods).
Oh and maybe the first Quake game to receive a similar remastering treatment as well because there are so many Quake addons that should be included as official works (aside from the two official mission packs), including the 5th episode (the anniversary episode Dimension of the Past) and old classics like Beyond Belief. Ok, I can guess I can stop dreaming now.
To end the post, I played more Double Impact and reached level 3 (I nearly died at one point in second level but I made it through and thanks to those UV max videos on YouTube, I was able to find remaining secrets and started level 3 with maxed health and armor), as well as starting Akeldama (in PrBoom+) on UV and reached level 3 (also survived the first 2 maps, the first map in particular had a nasty trap right BEHIND me and thanks to that armor secret I survived with 50% health and 75% armor but other than that, I did fine). I guess it's time to post some more screens (and to show that PrBoom can be made to look just like vanilla, not how the port is set up first time)
This post has been edited by RunningDuke: 22 July 2020 - 12:06 AM
#3749 Posted 21 July 2020 - 11:13 PM
I forgot about the DEHACKED stuff in TNTR and D2TWiD. Damnit.
In that case I think before anything else, they should really add in DEHACKED support. They already included their own version of a MAPINFO, and without DEHACKED support I think the Unity versions are missing out on a lot of stuff. Yeah TNT:R used some Duke 3D sprites but that's easily remedied. The Dehacked stuff isn't and I think that limits their options pool way more significantly than it should. I mean DEHACKED even works for DOS so for the current port to fall behind DOS in scope is...kind of sad.
In that case I think before anything else, they should really add in DEHACKED support. They already included their own version of a MAPINFO, and without DEHACKED support I think the Unity versions are missing out on a lot of stuff. Yeah TNT:R used some Duke 3D sprites but that's easily remedied. The Dehacked stuff isn't and I think that limits their options pool way more significantly than it should. I mean DEHACKED even works for DOS so for the current port to fall behind DOS in scope is...kind of sad.
This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 21 July 2020 - 11:15 PM
#3750 Posted 22 July 2020 - 12:05 AM
I agree, they really should add their own version of DEHACKED (or a new way to define new actors into the game) or maybe adding the new actors directly into the engine. They are missing out a lot of stuff that came in last years because of that.
Also DOS Doom didn't really have support for DEHACKED on its own, it was a separate program that modified the various hardcoded limits into the vanilla executable, as far as I know. I know for sure Chocolate Doom has built-in dehacked support which is one of reasons why I prefer Chocolate over DOS Doom when comes to more recent vanilla wads like DTWID, because I wouldn't have been able to load the deh file into DOOM.EXE to have the new map names displayed into automap. With Chocolate Doom, all I have to do is load the dehacked patch with the -deh parameter alongside the usual -iwad and -file parameters (in this case I had set the Chocolate Doom shortcut like that: -iwad DOOM.WAD -file DTWID.wad -deh DTWID.deh).
Most other source ports (such as Eternity, PrBoom+, ZDoom family ports) include loading the DEHACKED lump directly from the wad, so you don't need to load the deh wad separately as it already exists in the wad (at least the wads released from late 2000s until now). In case of Akeldama, which is a recent vanilla compatible wad, it didn't come with a separate deh lump like the usual vanilla wads come with, however it is still embed into the wad, therefore I decided to play in PrBoom+ so I can get new level names (and possibly new intermission text), otherwise I would have been missing them out if I played in Chocolate. As you can see, I try my best to get the closest experience that the authors intended (after all, the wad was tested with Chocolate, PrBoom+ and ZDoom/GZDoom).
What do you think of the suggestions I have made so far with other wads that should be added? Is there a particular wad (other than the ones you specified) that you'd like to see added in the recent unity ports? I'm sure a couple of them have also the difficulty that you are looking for (I mean not too easy and not too hard). Also just reminded of two additional Ultimate Doom megawads that I forgot to mention: Switcheroom and The Ultimate NMD. I will go to add them to previous post if I can still edit it.
EDIT: Done. On that subject, do you think Deathmatch wads should get added? I was thinking of the Gothic DM series but I don't know if there is a high demand for deathmatch wads to get added. I would also like if the ports get a proper online multiplayer support and even new multiplayer mods like Team Deathmatch and Capture the Flag, that would be pretty cool as I'm sure there are many CTF wads that could be included.
Also DOS Doom didn't really have support for DEHACKED on its own, it was a separate program that modified the various hardcoded limits into the vanilla executable, as far as I know. I know for sure Chocolate Doom has built-in dehacked support which is one of reasons why I prefer Chocolate over DOS Doom when comes to more recent vanilla wads like DTWID, because I wouldn't have been able to load the deh file into DOOM.EXE to have the new map names displayed into automap. With Chocolate Doom, all I have to do is load the dehacked patch with the -deh parameter alongside the usual -iwad and -file parameters (in this case I had set the Chocolate Doom shortcut like that: -iwad DOOM.WAD -file DTWID.wad -deh DTWID.deh).
Most other source ports (such as Eternity, PrBoom+, ZDoom family ports) include loading the DEHACKED lump directly from the wad, so you don't need to load the deh wad separately as it already exists in the wad (at least the wads released from late 2000s until now). In case of Akeldama, which is a recent vanilla compatible wad, it didn't come with a separate deh lump like the usual vanilla wads come with, however it is still embed into the wad, therefore I decided to play in PrBoom+ so I can get new level names (and possibly new intermission text), otherwise I would have been missing them out if I played in Chocolate. As you can see, I try my best to get the closest experience that the authors intended (after all, the wad was tested with Chocolate, PrBoom+ and ZDoom/GZDoom).
What do you think of the suggestions I have made so far with other wads that should be added? Is there a particular wad (other than the ones you specified) that you'd like to see added in the recent unity ports? I'm sure a couple of them have also the difficulty that you are looking for (I mean not too easy and not too hard). Also just reminded of two additional Ultimate Doom megawads that I forgot to mention: Switcheroom and The Ultimate NMD. I will go to add them to previous post if I can still edit it.
EDIT: Done. On that subject, do you think Deathmatch wads should get added? I was thinking of the Gothic DM series but I don't know if there is a high demand for deathmatch wads to get added. I would also like if the ports get a proper online multiplayer support and even new multiplayer mods like Team Deathmatch and Capture the Flag, that would be pretty cool as I'm sure there are many CTF wads that could be included.
This post has been edited by RunningDuke: 22 July 2020 - 12:09 AM
