[Kathy]

 Malgon, on 12 March 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

I stand corrected. Thanks Lunick.

No, you're not. Apogee LLC owns Rise Of The Triad.

[Daedolon]

 Kathy, on 12 March 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

Apogee LLC owns Rise Of The Triad.

And https://twitter.com/ApogeeSoftware/ is Apogee Software, LLC's twitter account. What's the issue here?

[Kathy]

Saying that 3dRealms(aka Apogee Ltd) owned Rise Of The Triad was the issue here.

[MrFlibble]

 MYHOUSE.MAP, on 02 March 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

First off, I'd try and release the 3DR/Apogee's back catalog on Steam and GoG, if only to make it easy to access Apogee's back catalog without having to deal with 3DR's site.

 Lunick, on 02 March 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

-If possible (and have the rights to) host the rest of 3D Realms/Apogee back catalog on GOG.com/Steam. 3D Realms seems to have attempted to start doing so with games like Duke Nukem 1 + 2 and Hocus Pocus on GOG but then the releases suddenly stopped...

-If the above point is expanded upon and done, then I expect the games to supported somewhat and actually cared for. Blake Stone on Steam is STILL unpatched from the 1.0 version and the creator of ECWolf has expressed his desires of having it updated to at least 2.1 so his source port works properly with the game.

People from DOS gaming communities are also interested in this and would like to know if Interceptor Entertainment will take steps towards adding more Apogee/3DR games to the GOG catalog.

Currently, the following Apogee/3D Realms games are sold at/offered for free by GOG:
Balls of Steel
Blake Stone: Aliens of Gold
Blake Stone: Planet Strike
Duke Nukem 1+2
Duke Nukem 3D: Atomic Edition
Duke Nukem: Manhattan Project
Hocus Pocus
Realms of Chaos
Rise of the Triad: Dark War
Secret Agent
Shadow Warrior Classic Complete
Stargunner
Terminal Velocity

[Micky C]

What do you mean for free? You have to pay for the games.

[MrFlibble]

 Micky C, on 12 March 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

What do you mean for free? You have to pay for the games.

I said

 MrFlibble, on 12 March 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

are sold at/offered for free by GOG:

Stargunner is free (or maybe you prefer "sold for $0"?).

[Micky C]

My bad

[Damien_Azreal]

 Yause, on 11 March 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

At the very least, Interceptor has expressed interest in acquiring Blood.

....which brings us to the problem. Scott Miller already sold the most notable properties (Rise of the Triad, Duke Nukem, Max Payne, Prey)

3D Realms never owned Max Payne.
Remedy created the property and presented it to 3D Realms under the working title of "Dark Justice" or "Max Heat". 3DR acted as producer/publisher on the title.


3D Realms has sold the Blood IP to Monolith when development issues arose.
They sold PREY to ZeniMax through Radar Group (which has turned out to be such a great idea... ugh)
Duke Nukem to Gearbox when... development issues arose.
And Rise of the Triad to the new Apogee LLC.

Other then that all they did was work out a publishing/development deal for Shadow Warrior with Devoler Digital and Flying Wild Hog.


I've always felt that 3DR was a better producer then developer. As a developer, they had the ability to make great products... but, normally just got in their own way.

[Yause]

 Damien_Azreal, on 12 March 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

3D Realms never owned Max Payne.
Remedy created the property and presented it to 3D Realms under the working title of "Dark Justice" or "Max Heat". 3DR acted as producer/publisher on the title.

They didn't? I was under the impression that it was co-owned by 3D Realms and Remedy. Scott Miller certainly spoke of the sale as one of his business triumphs.

Edit: Just checked the old copyright info. Max Payne name and logo belonged to Apogee. Software copyright went to both Remedy and Apogee.

[Kathy]

 Damien_Azreal, on 12 March 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

I've always felt that 3DR was a better producer then developer.

Knowing their development prowess since late 90s... that's not saying much. And they didn't produce much since then either if you compare with early 90s. Which again proves they couldn't adapt to changes in game making.

[Damien_Azreal]

 Kathy, on 12 March 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

Knowing their development prowess since late 90s... that's not saying much. And they didn't produce much since then either if you compare with early 90s. Which again proves they couldn't adapt to changes in game making.

I agree.
I have a lot of nostalgic love for 3D Realms, but... they made a lot of mistakes as a game developer and as a business.
Their ungodly flawed development process, and their inability to work as a team. Or grow a team to suit the needs of developing newer titles. They definitely got ahead of themselves, and didn't have a strategy or even really a clear idea of what they were doing.
As a producer... they didn't do much. Max Payne and PREY. A few third party Duke games, and some expansions to DN3D and Shadow Warrior. While that category is pretty limited, I will say the Max Payne series and PREY stand as some of my favorite games. And, personally, the only third party Duke games I like are Zero Hour and Manhattan Project.

To me, 3DR created a powerhouse with DN3D. One that probably amazed them just as much as it did the gaming community. And left them stumped on how to not only keep up, but surpass it.
Shadow Warrior is great, but some of the level design in some areas is really, really bad.
And their inability to hold a development team together for PREY speaks pretty clearly about the internal workings of the company.

They got so wrapped up in trying to make Duke huge, they lost track of many, much more important things. As in making the game fun for the sake of being fun. They lost the tone and style of Duke's sarcasm and black comedy, and tried to fill it with slapstick and toilet humor.
And, they hurt themselves so much they couldn't continue making new and interesting projects. Earth No More came into the light... only to do nothing.


I love 3D Realms. But, for the memories and the nostalgia. As a developer and a business... they were in over their heads for years.

[Malgon]

 Kathy, on 12 March 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

No, you're not. Apogee LLC owns Rise Of The Triad.

 Daedolon, on 12 March 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

And https://twitter.com/ApogeeSoftware/ is Apogee Software, LLC's twitter account. What's the issue here?

 Kathy, on 12 March 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

Saying that 3dRealms(aka Apogee Ltd) owned Rise Of The Triad was the issue here.

Lunick corrected my error when I stated that 3DR/Apogee Ltd. still owned Rise of the Triad, and I admitted that I was wrong on that count. Apogee LLC owns Rise of the Triad.

[MrFlibble]

Back to the GOG.com issue, I was thinking, would it be a good idea if the shareware versions of Apogee/3DR games that are not freeware were included in GOG.com's free game catalogue (bundled with DOSBox and installer and all)? I suppose that this could help bring those games to a wider audience.

[Kathy]

 Malgon, on 12 March 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

Lunick corrected my error when I stated that 3DR/Apogee Ltd. still owned Rise of the Triad, and I admitted that I was wrong on that count. Apogee LLC owns Rise of the Triad.

Sorry, I'm an idiot for not checking what "stand corrected" actually means.

[Kristian Joensen]

3DR and Remedy co-owned the Max Payne IP and shared all the revenues 50/50.

[necroslut]

 MrFlibble, on 13 March 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

Back to the GOG.com issue, I was thinking, would it be a good idea if the shareware versions of Apogee/3DR games that are not freeware were included in GOG.com's free game catalogue (bundled with DOSBox and installer and all)? I suppose that this could help bring those games to a wider audience.

As most of the shareware releases were technically complete games (i.e. Duke Nukem Episode 1) I don't see a problem with that. I don't think GOG has done it previously, and it's possible they don't want to do it.

[MrFlibble]

 necroslut, on 13 March 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

I don't think GOG has done it previously, and it's possible they don't want to do it.

I've heard that they aren't very active about expanding the freeware part of their catalogue. There are currently about 12 free games there, and just by adding the freeware Apogee, Epic MegaGames and MVP software releases they could easily expand that beyond 30 freeware titles. I assume that just by saying "we have more than 30 freeware games ready to be installed once you sign up" could serve as an incentive to draw in new users/potential customers.

It is my understanding that some of the users actually do support this approach and are trying to convince GOG.com to add more titles to the freeware catalogue. It's just that I'm not sure if there's a need for some kind of negotiations with (former) copyright holders (probably not but the process of adding new free/liberated games to GOG.com doesn't seem to be very simple anyway).

As for the shareware versions I personally think that it would do good to advertise the full game, but in some cases the developers' concerns that a potential buyer will lose interest after playing the shareware episode might not be without justification as well.

Personally I'd love to have more freeware/shareware DOS games added to GOG.com, just because this service makes the games easily accessible to those users who can't be bothered to tinker with DOSBox themselves to play an old title. This would also help save from obscurity some of the less popular games too.

[Sangman]

 X-Vector, on 12 March 2014 - 01:27 AM, said:

That could be done under the Interceptor name.
After the DNF debacle 3D Realms is now firmly a legacy name and its legacy games are already being sold through multiple channels, so at the moment I'm still unsure what exactly the point is.

I'm fully expecting revivals of old less known Apogee titles. Sequels to Crystal Caves and Cosmo's Cosmic Adventures and shit.

[DustFalcon85]

 Kristian Joensen, on 13 March 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

3DR and Remedy co-owned the Max Payne IP and shared all the revenues 50/50.

And they sold the Max Payne IP to Rockstar/Take-Two after Max Payne 2: The Fall of Max Payne.

Anyways. How a/b a revival of Arctic Adventures, Pharaoh's Tomb, and Mission to Mars?

[Kyanos]

 DustFalcon85, on 13 March 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

And they sold the Max Payne IP to Rockstar/Take-Two after Max Payne 2: The Fall of Max Payne.

Anyways. How a/b a revival of Arctic Adventures, Pharaoh's Tomb, and Mission to Mars?

^ Pharaoh's Tomb

[Kathy]

 DustFalcon85, on 13 March 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

And they sold the Max Payne IP to Rockstar/Take-Two after Max Payne 2: The Fall of Max Payne.

They sold it the day it was announced to be in development.

[Blue Lightning]

 Damien_Azreal, on 12 March 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

They got so wrapped up in trying to make Duke huge, they lost track of many, much more important things. As in making the game fun for the sake of being fun. They lost the tone and style of Duke's sarcasm and black comedy, and tried to fill it with slapstick and toilet humor.
And, they hurt themselves so much they couldn't continue making new and interesting projects. Earth No More came into the light... only to do nothing.


I love 3D Realms. But, for the memories and the nostalgia. As a developer and a business... they were in over their heads for years.

Agreed. It would of been simple...stay with the formula that works. The wheel was already round. Make Duke Forever like Duke 3D...change the models and graphics of course, but make the same kind of non linear maps, the same cracks in the wall for secrets, the same drinking from pipes, the same formula. The game would of been easy if they didn't try to get fancy and stuck with the known quanity.

[Forge]

Alien Carnage
Biomenace
Dark Ages

[Malgon]

 Kathy, on 13 March 2014 - 06:44 AM, said:

Sorry, I'm an idiot for not checking what "stand corrected" actually means.

No problem.

 Forge, on 13 March 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Alien Carnage
Biomenace
Dark Ages

Yeah, I think something Bio Menace related could be nice. I always thought this track was very cool.

[X-Vector]

 Sangman, on 13 March 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

I'm fully expecting revivals of old less known Apogee titles. Sequels to Crystal Caves and Cosmo's Cosmic Adventures and shit.

 Forge, on 13 March 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

Alien Carnage
Biomenace
Dark Ages

These are all old and obscure games that only ring a bell for a handful of people.
Considering they are also all side-scollers I don't see any point in reviving these titles, unless the new 3D Realms is intent on gunning for a tiny niche market.
DN:MP didn't exactly set the sales charts alight and that one had Duke Nukem in it.

[MrFlibble]

 X-Vector, on 14 March 2014 - 12:44 AM, said:

Considering they are also all side-scollers I don't see any point in reviving these titles, unless the new 3D Realms is intent on gunning for a tiny niche market.

I for one have always thought that Halloween Harry 3D would make for a nice game

Also said games could probably get a wider audience if their addition to the GOG.com freeware catalogue were negotiated.

One idea that seems not entirely worthless to me is that of a new game which would feature an ensemble cast of all (or most) characters from the old franchises. After all, back in the day the developers/publishers themselves would promote the concept that their characters from different games kind of existed in the same universe and, in some cases, were even related (B.J. and Commander Keen, Duke and Major Stryker). I know that this kind of "superhero team" plot is a huge cliche but I suppose it could work out to create a nostalgic tribute game.

Just my two cents though.

[Damien_Azreal]

 Blue Lightning, on 13 March 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

Agreed. It would of been simple...stay with the formula that works. The wheel was already round. Make Duke Forever like Duke 3D...change the models and graphics of course, but make the same kind of non linear maps, the same cracks in the wall for secrets, the same drinking from pipes, the same formula. The game would of been easy if they didn't try to get fancy and stuck with the known quanity.

And I disagree.
The formula needs to evolve. It can't stay the same as DN3D. It has to grow over time.
DNF didn't grow though, it isn't a cohesive product.

Shadow Warrior is a good example of how to grow and expand.

[Jimmy]

Maybe in terms of gameplay mechanics, but the level design actually regressed for the most part.

[xMobilemux]

Shadow Warrior only evolved the swordplay, everything else was just average, the level design was mediocre and the gameplay was Serious Sam with a sword.
Shadow Warrior only seems like a massive step forward because it's the one and only reboot in all of gaming that didn't take thousands of steps back.

Shadow Warrior 2 has the potential to be a major step forward, but I just think FWH is gonna go all Croteam and just make the same game in a new setting and a few new weapons, monsters etc.

[necroslut]

 xMobilemux, on 14 March 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Shadow Warrior only evolved the swordplay, everything else was just average, the level design was mediocre and the gameplay was Serious Sam with a sword.
Shadow Warrior only seems like a massive step forward because it's the one and only reboot in all of gaming that didn't take thousands of steps back.

Shadow Warrior 2 has the potential to be a major step forward, but I just think FWH is gonna go all Croteam and just make the same game in a new setting and a few new weapons, monsters etc.

I think both Damien and Jimmy were talking about 1997 Shadow Warrior. Though ('97) Shadow Warrior is probably one of the few games to ever improve on Duke 3D in any aspect.