[Jblade]

Oh, so you're only interested in HRP and graphic mods. There is a HRP floating around but it looks terrible and thankfully most people are working more on gameplay stuff and levels than visual things. If that's your metric for a 'total conversion' than you're going to be disappointed no matter where you look.

[MetHy]

If we're comparing both communities, I think the Doom community is better than us in terms of gameplay. Most duke mappers only care about making stunning visuals or fancy tricks and the gameplay is quickly slapped on at the end with no much thought. Good gameplay is made by designing the map and its archtecture and layout around gameplay, with gameplay in mind, which is what a lot of doom mappers do.

I however think that the reason to this comes from the legacy of both original games. Doom has always been more about gameplay while Duke3D has always been more about realism.

Now I was pretty disappointed by this years cacowards, especially the supposedly "best" wad (that whale thing) for me wins the award for worst gameplay ever created and for most pretentious design ever.
Gameplay consists in nothing followed by fighting DOZENS of the toughest enemies in a tight area with no way to take cover followed by nothing followed by fighting 2 bosses at once in a square tight area while they keep spawning in and out of your face. Fantastic.
By pretentious design I mean the mapper thinks his design made solely of 2 shades of blue is so good he believes it stands on its own as for the first map all there is to do is "look" at the scenery from various angles, press 2 buttons, and the map ends. No gameplay. Most prententious "artsy" wad ever.
I believe the people who consider this the greatest wad completly missed the point of what made Doom good.

This being said that's just one wad, the worst ever if you ask me and thankfully most wads stick to what makes Doom Doom. Now if you want to play quality stuff try Vanguard by Skillsaw.

[Jblade]

There's a lot of Doom wads I could recommend, but I think you hit the nail on the head about Doom's gameplay vs Duke's visual focus. I think the problem is Duke's game AI isn't complex enough to allow creative uses of the enemies, and they were created to be visual spectacles rather than challenging enemies. All of Duke's enemies do A cool thing - the Liztroop flies and teleports, the Pigcop throws himself to the floor to make himself a smaller target, the Lizman jumps around (and shits on the floor?!) the Octabrain floats, shoots a cool looking attack (It's even CALLED coolexplosion in the code!) and is fairly creepy, .etc .etc but gameplay wise there's not much utility to it. I think Shadow Warrior did a fair better job of giving the enemies a gameplay use as well as a cool niche.

Duke's enemies are more fun to look at than Doom's, but all of Doom's enemies fulfill some form of role and can be put together to pose a legitimate challenge without resorting to shoving hundreds of them around. Duke's combat just isn't really capable of the same intricacies (mainly because the RPG kills most enemies in one shot and has a huge blast radius, so you're forced to handicap the player to only a few weapons if you don't want to trivialize fights)

[MetHy]

I'm still trying to come up with gameplay based maps lately with interesting and challenging gameplay. I believe a lot still hasn't been done in Duke, but it's pretty hard indeed. Still if people thought about gameplay when designing their maps it would be much better already, or if they took design into account more. Even simple things can make a lot of difference, for example in ACB Studios released recently the author put 2 Pigtanks behind a fence so you were forced to actually shoot at them instead of pushing the button at their back. This alone is very simple and makes gamepaly much more interesting and renders the under-used pigtanks useful and interesting, but can you believe it had NEVER been done ? It shows duke mappers in general don't put enough thought into their gameplay.

[Fox]

James, on 13 January 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

shoots a cool looking attack (It's even CALLED coolexplosion in the code!)

James, on 13 January 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

Duke's enemies are more fun to look at than Doom's, but all of Doom's enemies fulfill some form of role and can be put together to pose a legitimate challenge without resorting to shoving hundreds of them around. Duke's combat just isn't really capable of the same intricacies (mainly because the RPG kills most enemies in one shot and has a huge blast radius, so you're forced to handicap the player to only a few weapons if you don't want to trivialize fights)

I disagree. With exception of the Arch-vile, most of Doom monsters have simplistic attacks. But I guess it's how Doom game as a whole was built that makes it more challenging.

[MetHy]

Yeah but they can find you, even try to take you from another side, shoot at you accurately from a distance, it's harder to avoid their attacks...

To avoid hitscan enemies in Duke you only have to strafe.

[Micky C]

IMO the enemies in Duke are good enough that they can be utilized in a variety of ways based on level design. Like you said MetHy mappers need to start planning their level layout and everything in tandem with the enemies to keep things fresh, interesting and varied. That's why even if Doom has better gameplay based on the enemies (although I find doom wwaaaayyy to repetitive), I'd personally rather have gameplay based on superior level design.

[Daedolon]

I'm "dissing" DOOM, because I'm not a fan of the game so I have no reason to search for mods and maps, and from what I've seen, the mods look horrible (Aeons of Death etc.).

[Jblade]

You picked one of the worst WADs available to dismiss the entire game, so no wonder you don't like it. Gameplay mods are hardly the bread and butter of the Doom community's output.

[Jimmy]

James, on 13 January 2014 - 01:03 AM, said:

Oh, so you're only interested in HRP and graphic mods. There is a HRP floating around but it looks terrible and thankfully most people are working more on gameplay stuff and levels than visual things. If that's your metric for a 'total conversion' than you're going to be disappointed no matter where you look.

The Doom community is a bit smarter than the Duke community in that aspect (IN MY OPINION) because they figured out a long time ago that you can't just slap hi-res textures and 3D models into a 2D game and expect it to look good. High resolution stuff really only has a place when the levels and stuff are designed for it.

Fox, on 13 January 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

I disagree. With exception of the Arch-vile, most of Doom monsters have simplistic attacks. But I guess it's how Doom game as a whole was built that makes it more challenging.

The AI is far superior.

[neoacix]

Jimmy, on 13 January 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

The Doom community is a bit smarter than the Duke community in that aspect (IN MY OPINION) because they figured out a long time ago that you can't just slap hi-res textures and 3D models into a 2D game and expect it to look good. High resolution stuff really only has a place when the levels and stuff are designed for it.

I can't agree to that.
As far as I know, there is at least 1 project to add voxels to DOOM for replacing the common 2D-sprites.
And polymer in combination with maphacks does a great job on enhancing the levels ambience, not to mention things like Duke Eternity...

The biggest benefit of DOOM besides Duke3D for me as a player, who wan't to play oldschool FPS, is:
Doom has a very good working multiplayer netcode, Duke does not atm.

Doom has multiplayer mods like "Who done it?" and stuff like that, which I realy like.
Duke3D can't have such stuff because of broken netcode...

I think that's the reason why the DOOM has such a big community.
They can play the game the whole day in different mods on multiplayer.
With Duke, you can't...

[LeoD]

Jimmy, on 13 January 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

High resolution stuff really only has a place when the levels and stuff are designed for it.

So we shouldn't use the HRP when playing the original levels which it was designed for in the first place? ROFL

[Radar]

The original levels were still only designed for 8-bit art, homie.

[Forge]

there's nothing wrong with HRP per say, but when you neglect the rest of the aspects that create an immersive atmosphere and depend on 3d graphics to do the job for you (and fancy lighting as well), then the end result is just a plastic looking map

[Jimmy]

ITT: People who can't read. For fuck's sake.

dpax, on 13 January 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

I can't agree to that.
As far as I know, there is at least 1 project to add voxels to DOOM for replacing the common 2D-sprites.
And polymer in combination with maphacks does a great job on enhancing the levels ambience, not to mention things like Duke Eternity...

Voxels are a natural evolution of 2D sprites, dude. Of course they look good in old games. What's your point?
Duke Eternity was designed with the HRP in mind.

LeoD, on 13 January 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

So we shouldn't use the HRP when playing the original levels which it was designed for in the first place? ROFL

The HRP was designed for individual assets. The original levels were designed for the assets it shipped with. Learn to read and think critically.

[Daedolon]

James, on 13 January 2014 - 04:03 AM, said:

You picked one of the worst WADs available to dismiss the entire game

You missed my point, I didn't choose anything. I just happened to walk upon it on YouTube.

I dunno, give me something like SSTTC or DNF2013 on DOOM and I'll give it a try.

[Jblade]

http://www.doomworld.com/cacowards/

Go nuts (but I would recommend sticking to Zdoom mods since they're generally more interactive and closer to what Duke would offer rather than vanilla ones, if you're not fond of Doom's core gameplay) Start at 2013 if you want the latest and best looking stuff (and the ZDCMP2 is probably the closest parallell DNF2013 as far as Doom mods go)

[neoacix]

ELFDICK, on 13 January 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

Voxels are a natural evolution of 2D sprites, dude. Of course they look good in old games. What's your point?
Duke Eternity was designed with the HRP in mind.

I think I misunderstood your previous post.
It sounded some kind like "HI-res textures and 3D-models don't belong in a old game like Duke3D or Doom anyway" to me.
Anyways nevermind.

[Jimmy]

dpax, on 15 January 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

I think I misunderstood your previous post.
It sounded some kind like "HI-res textures and 3D-models don't belong in a old game like Duke3D or Doom anyway" to me.
Anyways nevermind.

They don't. But if a modder wants to use those assets to build something cool, like Duke Nukem Eternity, then go nuts.

[Hendricks266]

Micky C, on 11 January 2014 - 04:25 PM, said:

This month Puritan did an interview with Ken over at Come Get Some. Most questions were oriented towards what Ken is up to these days with regards to Duke 3D (not much ) and Build.
The interview can be found here: http://www.scent-88....uary/index.html just press the "interview" button.

It seems like this interview was lost with CGS' new site design, and the Wayback Machine doesn't have it. Does anyone have a copy from after it was updated with some additional information?

[Carl Winslow]

I quoted a post from 2014 like a stupid bitch

[Hendricks266]

Carl Winslow, on 16 October 2016 - 04:59 PM, said:

I quoted a post from 2014 like a stupid bitch

Idiot, I'm bumping the thread on purpose. I saw this when it was first posted, and I thought about it while reading our SVN log to document changes affecting z-fighting and maskwalls.

[Forge]

it's still under the "mapper of the month" 2014 section (though it moved)

http://www.scent-88....mom/2014jan.php

[Hendricks266]

You the real MVP.