[Person of Color]

Kathy, on 26 December 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

That was my point. Everything goes hand in hand in a game.

Which is exactly why saying "Deus Ex is the best game ever," and then calling Mass Effect flawed is a total bullshit argument.

[Jeff]

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Today's gamers have a fucking entitlement and ego problem

Whenever I bring up *that* word people come and tell me whether I know the definition of entitlement. I can safely say I do.

Just take a stroll through the Bioware Sociopath Network and you'll find 100 sigatures stating "I deserve a better ending", "Random Mass Effect character deserves a better ending". Or "I didn't pay X to use my imagination. Bioware has to do it all for me. It's lazy writing if they don't explain it or fill in the details". Give me a 5 hour DLC that explains everything for free. I want a closure DLC specifically like X. Or I didn't like this part of the game, I want you to do a revamped [random] mission exactly how I want it for free.

[Person of Color]

BSN is fucking awful. The threads devoted to the female characters are just terrible.

Yeah, we get it, even some of the aliens have nice faces. That's because BioWare used actual models and didn't just make synthetic crap in a cubicle. It's more believable that way. It keeps the fourth wall made of concrete instead of stained glass.

"LOL CHECK OUT MY MIRANDA AND JACK LESBIAN FAN FICTION GUYS!"

Sure I'll check it out. But only if you check yourself in first.

[Jimmy]

Dial V for Viper, on 26 December 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

You know, honestly, as much as I love old school shooters, I've come to realize that my love for them is mainly due to adrenaline. Honestly, as long as a game isn't dumbed down, simplistic garbage I'm down for it. Fast paced, high difficulty, skill based excitement gives me that rush.And you know what? I'm cool with you too, regen health. There, I said it. There's something awesome about a game with proper regen health like DE:HR or ME3. You gain sooo much freedom, but you've got all the toughness of wet tissue paper. Watch your back or get eaten alive in two seconds. Crank up the difficulty and it's manlier than medpacks, that's for sure. There's a sense of fear you can't get out of an old school health system. Especially in Mass Effect, if you play as a Vanguard. You basically put yourself in extreme danger for an immediate shield recharge. If you are half a second late in locking on and using your ultra fast headbutting attack, you're straight up fucked. I beat the entire final boss battle of Omega with veins popping into my vision, constantly. I maybe had like 5 natural recharges, the other 50 were all life or death Vanguard attacks.

Regen health and ammo/item refills have their place. BUT! What makes them special is that a limited amount of resources takes planning. Regen health and ammo/item refills are just game-welfare. YOU DEGENERATE.

[Kathy]

Jeff, on 26 December 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

I hear a lot of people talk about going back to the "good old days", but was it really that great? Or is that just looking at the world with rose tinted goggles on?

No, it is looking at the world without handholding.

Viper said:

Which is exactly why saying "Deus Ex is the best game ever," and then calling Mass Effect flawed is a total bullshit argument.

Not really. It might lack in some areas, but makes it up in the others. Same could be said about Mass Effect. But it's about balance between all parts.

[Person of Color]

Jimmy, on 26 December 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

Regen health and ammo/item refills have their place. BUT! What makes them special is that a limited amount of resources takes planning. Regen health and ammo/item refills are just game-welfare. YOU DEGENERATE.

Resource planning is a singular tactic. People act like it's the second coming of the plague if it isn't there. There are many other ways to make up for that "lost" depth with other things.

[Jimmy]

Dial V for Viper, on 26 December 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

Resource planning is a singular tactic. People act like it's the second coming of the plague if it isn't there. There are many other ways to make up for that "lost" depth with other things.

Oh of course. I don't mind if it's not there. I just hate that new FPSes tend to just stick to the same formula. (And that doesn't mean I don't like these new games. I like NY and Chicago pizzas. I just recognize there is a difference between the two.) There's obviously a demand, but no one is making it. They always go half way, with games like Hard Reset. Resource planning is a more important part of deathmatch. The whole point is that you make sure you have the advantage over the other player. If you control the resources, you control the match. Doom is literally libertarian economics at work.

But I digress. I think what really fucked us was the rush to new technology. I don't think the industry was ready for 3D technology, and it's still suffering from it.

[Person of Color]

Kathy, on 26 December 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

Not really. It might lack in some areas, but makes it up in the others. Same could be said about Mass Effect. But it's about balance between all parts.

That wasn't his position. His was that Mass Effect is deeply flawed, and he then held up Deus Ex as the pinnacle of gameplay.

A game can't be "The best ever" if it has that many flaws. Especially when you name yourself "Gameplay Nut" and hold up Deus Ex like Link opening a treasure chest. The gunplay is either terrible or mediocre and some levels, like Vandenberg, actually have components that don't work right if you play the level in a certain way. My play style on that level is pretty cut and dry and that bitch near the reinforced door on level 2 STILL won't talk to me at all unless I run a full frontal assault like a fucking mongoloid, and that's just one bug out of many in that game.

Ever try to get the Tong ending on the GOTY edition? No? You haven't? Well there's a 50% chance you can't even get it! Here's how you do it:

Press "T".

Delete "Say."

Type "set deusex.jcdentonmale bcheatsenabled true"

Hit enter.

Press T AGAIN.

Delete Say AGAIN.

Type "opensesame"

Hit enter.

Press say ANOTHER TIME.

DELETE SAY A SECOND FUCKING TIME.

Hit up twice.

Delete "true" and type "false.

Hit enter FOR THE THIRD TIME.

How do you fuck up something as simple as a keycode? Even the music for the final return to NYC doesn't work in the so called "best" edition. Deus Ex is like a five star meal with a giant mountain of parsley on the plate of the main course. It's still one of the best meals you've ever eaten, but that parsley gets all over everything and kicks it down a notch.

[Jimmy]

Fat fuck analogy.

I understand completely.

[Person of Color]

Here's an even better analogy: Deus Ex is like a warehouse full of classic cars, and each one has a minor problem.

Sure, it's still epic, but everything annoys you a little bit. The Ferrari Daytona has little bit of slop in it's steering. The GT500 needs new brake pads. The convertible Hemi 'Cuda isn't a replica, but the stereo is busted, so you can't blast the Beach Boys, when, you know, take it to the beach.

Nothing in Deus Ex works 100%. Even the nearly perfect plot is held back by downright shit voice acting, which is even worse than 90's era Sega at times.

[Jeff]

Dial V for Viper, on 26 December 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Even the nearly perfect plot is held back by downright shit voice acting, which is even worse than 90's era Sega at times.

Mass Effect has good voice actors. I mean just look at this resume.

[Person of Color]

It's also got big people like Martin Sheen, and at worst you get voice acting that's just "good."

[Jimmy]

I always thought that the voice acting in Deus Ex was supposed be like campy b-movie bad, but they just couldn't pull it off. It definitely detracts from the game.

[Jeff]

Made this video earlier this year.

If you want to hear something really creepy listen to this

[Person of Color]

Jimmy, on 26 December 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

I always thought that the voice acting in Deus Ex was supposed be like campy b-movie bad, but they just couldn't pull it off. It definitely detracts from the game.

It's just typical crappy late 90's voice acting. It's not campy in a great, nostalgic way like SiN, it's just awful.

If I ever win the lottery I'm getting a team together and I'm going to create an HD voice pack. We already have New Vision - We just need the second half of the equation finished.

The good characters such as JC Denton, Manderly and Bob Page will stay. Others will be replaced. Walton Simons will be an optional checkbox. Tom Hall could have been fantastic in that role but he wasn't directed well.

[Gameplay Nut]

Whoa! Huge, elitist, presumptuous rant there, Viper.

Not worthy of my time

I'll bite this one though: no, the gunplay in Deus Ex is not atrocious. There are flaws, yes, mostly aesthetic (reload anims or lack thereof among other things) but once you are invested in the right upgrades it becomes a different beast entirely, complete with 'superpowers' and a great weapon modding system.

And I'll repeat that the level design in Mass Effect is fucking atrocious in many ways. Don't confuse art direction with level design. If none can acknowledge this then I am definitely done here. For fuck sake they lazily place invisible walls about everywhere, and is designed almost exclusively on one plane, Bioware hardly evolve in that regard. Designing third person 3D levels with isometric standards, it doesn't work like that.

I won't waste my time typing paragraphs on ME's gameplay. And no, I am not a "PC Elitist". Just elitist will do, I play on just about every system except for phones.
Additionally I never said I hated Mass Effect, just that I find the thread title and hyperbole within to be laughable and a little insulting to other developers that actually can design decent levels, among other things.

Edit: whilst I acknowledge Deus Ex's voice acting is not the best, there are good characters (as you say), but it really is near the bottom of the budget allocation priority list. It's a valid complaint nonetheless but if it didn't have VA at all it would stilll be a great game, whereas if it was a mostly linear invisible wall flat plane chest-high wall fest, I'd really be torn on it, as I am with Mass Effect..
Also bugs in the GOTY edition of DX is not exactly valid, as the original version does not have these problems.
Also also, Mass Effect had a much higher budget and was developed using newer tech, so it's naturally going to have a greater degree of polish. Where Deus Ex rises above is in design. Design is everything, it's what seperates the Call of Duty's and the Duke nukem's first and foremost.

[Person of Color]

Gameplay Nut, on 27 December 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

I'll bite this one though: no, the gunplay in Deus Ex is not atrocious. There are flaws, yes, mostly aesthetic (reload anims or lack thereof among other things) but once you are invested in the right upgrades it becomes a different beast entirely, complete with 'superpowers' and a great weapon modding system.

It is atrocious in the beginning of the game. JC Denton, despite all his augmentations, couldn't hit the broad side of a space shuttle. It's artificial difficulty at it's finest.

As far as gunplay goes later in the game, even with the correct upgrades, it's just generic 90's style shooting. You need way too many shots to take down something as simple as a soldier, and all the guns sound and feel weak. The exception to that rule is sniping, which is fucking awesome in Deus Ex.

I've beaten Deus Ex three times, The Nameless Mod once, and Nihilum once. I've spent countless times replaying individual levels in those games. The gunplay is TNM and Nihilum is fucking great, but classic Deus Ex is pretty janky.

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And I'll repeat that the level design in Mass Effect is fucking atrocious in many ways. Don't confuse art direction with level design. If none can acknowledge this then I am definitely done here. For fuck sake they lazily place invisible walls about everywhere, and is designed almost exclusively on one plane, Bioware hardly evolve in that regard. Designing third person 3D levels with isometric standards, it doesn't work like that.

I'm not confusing art direction with anything. As for everything being on "one plane," that might hold true for the first game, but the second game is less like that. The third game has more ledges and ladders than you can shake a stick at. Did you even play past the first one?

Like I said before, you're getting hung up on the fact that the Y axis isn't used enough in the earlier games. Your concern isn't the combat, the overall flow of the level, object placement, or anything else, it's just "Y-axis."

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I won't waste my time typing paragraphs on ME's gameplay. And no, I am not a "PC Elitist". Just elitist will do, I play on just about every system except for phones.

Probably because your opinion isn't really valued around here, and you know it'll get torn apart. Cherry pick arguments much?

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Additionally I never said I hated Mass Effect, just that I find the thread title and hyperbole within to be laughable and a little insulting to other developers that actually can design games.

"This game doesn't adhere to my completely tight, bullshit standards and therefore Bioware sucks! Here's what I would do differently."

Entitlement attitude. Drop it.

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Edit: whilst I acknowledge Deus Ex's voice acting is not the best, there are good characters (as you say), but it really is near the bottom of the design priority list. It's a valid complaint nonetheless but if it didn't have VA at all it would stilll be a great game, whereas if it was a mostly linear invisible wall flat plane chest-high wall fest, I'd really be torn on it, as I am with Mass Effect..

"Voice acting isn't important in a game with an amazing plot."

"I want to climb like a cat."

Your opinion sucks. It's based on your own individual quirks instead of the merit of the product itself.

[Gameplay Nut]

Dial V for Viper, on 27 December 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

It is atrocious in the beginning of the game. JC Denton, despite all his augmentations, couldn't hit the broad side of a space shuttle. It's artificial difficulty at it's finest.

You look at it from the wrong perspective. In Mass Effect 1 you cannot hit shit either. Artificial difficulty or not, it enforces tactical gameplay. Besides, in DX right off the bat 1st mission you can invest in master pistols skill for 100% accuracy if you so choose. Then it doesn't take too long to get rifles.

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As far as gunplay goes later in the game, even with the correct upgrades, it's just generic 90's style shooting. You need way too many shots to take down something as simple as a soldier, and all the guns sound and feel weak. The exception to that rule is sniping, which is fucking awesome in Deus Ex.

Low-tier soldiers and all civvies go down in 1 headshot, unlike Mass Effect (not that it matters much, bullet sponges can have their place, especially when an enemy is meant to be armoured or all-powerful). The shitty "feel" of guns is valid though, but it is a product of it's time.

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I've beaten Deus Ex three times, The Nameless Mod once, and Nihilum once. I've spent countless times replaying individual levels in those games. The gunplay is TNM and Nihilum is fucking great, but classic Deus Ex is pretty janky.

The gunplay is pretty much exactly the same in all three so you have just confessed to believing the gunplay in DX to be great as well.

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I'm not confusing art direction with anything. As for everything being on "one plane," that might hold true for the first game, but the second game is less like that. The third game has more ledges and ladders than you can shake a stick at.

No, all three have abysmal level design.

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Like I said before, you're getting hung up on the fact that the Y axis isn't used enough in the earlier games. Your concern isn't the combat, the overall flow of the level, object placement, or anything else, it's just "Y-axis."

Y-Axis is the primary complaint, but it is not all I mentioned. You're not reading, you must be overwhelmed by a flurry of fanboy emotions.

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Probably because your opinion isn't really valued around here, and you know it'll get torn apart. Cherry pick arguments much?

Time for some changes. Step aside chump

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"This game doesn't adhere to my completely tight, bullshit standards and therefore Bioware sucks! Here's what I would do differently."

Entitlement attitude. Drop it.

Blind fanboy-ism, drop it.

I am not being entitled I am pointing out perfectly valid flaws with the game and this thread.

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"Voice acting isn't important in a game with an amazing plot."

I never said it was not important. Every single file of code, textures, sound etc, it all counts, all of it. All makes up the final product. But it is a matter of priorities. Do you allocate resources into high-profile VA's or focus on actually making a great game?

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Your opinion sucks. It's based on your own individual quirks instead of the merit of the product itself.

Not at all. All perfectly valid complaints. It's your opinion that sucks, it's "defend the game at all costs, man the guns!". I have acknowledged errors of DX, you have blindly defended ME the whole time.

[Kathy]

Gameplay Nut, on 27 December 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

It's a valid complaint nonetheless but if it didn't have VA at all it would stilll be a great game

It probably would have been a better game.

[Person of Color]

Gameplay Nut, on 27 December 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

You look at it from the wrong perspective. In Mass Effect 1 you cannot hit shit either. Artificial difficulty or not, it enforces tactical gameplay.

That's a poor argument. Design flaws shouldn't force compensation. They shouldn't even be there. Saying that "Oh, it means you have to be up close" means that I lose another way of approaching a problem in a game that's all about free choice. It detracts from the experience. Both Deus Ex and especially ME1 had moments where I wanted to run to the basement, grab a hammer, and throw it through my monitor.

Flaws never make anything more fun, unless you're talking about muscle cars.

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Low-tier soldiers and all civvies go down in 1 headshot. The shitty "feel" of guns is valid though, but it is a product of it's time.

You need to be six inches away to get a headshot, or crouch for ten seconds while the reticule tightens. As for the "shitty feel" of the guns, even Doom and Wolf3D had great feeling weapons. UT99 had the best out of any game of that era, and it's still better than most modern games.

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The gunplay is pretty much exactly the same in all three.

The guns are much more accurate, sound better, and have more stopping power. It's a big step up. It's immediately noticeable between Deus Ex and TNM.

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No, all three have crap level design.

Can we get some elaboration here?

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Y-Axis is the primary complaint, but it is not all I mentioned.

Cover shooters involve fragile protagonists and require the player to make split second decisions that can end poorly. Having more than two planes of combat not only isn't fair, it isn't fun. Human Revolution is also much flatter than Deus Ex as a result, save for some huge set piece rooms and areas like Hengsha.

It's a limitation of the genre itself.

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Blind fanboy-ism, drop it.

I am not being entitled I am pointing out perfectly valid flaws with the game and this thread.

You're failing to elaborate on why Game A sucks, and why Game B, a game generally regarded as flawed, is better. Same shit. That shit is blind.

I'm acknowledging both games as "all time greats," but you refuse to state exactly why Mass Effect suffers from poor level design.

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I never said it was not important. Every single file of code, textures, sound etc, it all counts, all of it. All makes up the final product. But it is a matter of priorities. Do you allocate budget into high-profile VA's or focus on actually making a great game?

Voice acting isn't a cost issue, it's a directing issue. My father has been working with voice actors for years, and I've sat in actual recording studios and seen the entire process unfold. Even the all time greats need quality directing or they fall flat.

You can get good results with cheap voice actors. Case in point, The Nameless Mod. It's got some janky stuff, but some of the people are total no names and do a good job.

Deus Ex suffered from the same problem nearly every Sega game had in the 90's - no direction with voice acting. Those are the kind of results you get when you get random staff members to read a few lines off of a piece of paper and go out to lunch.

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Not at all. All perfectly valid complaints. Your opinion sucks. it's "defend the game at all costs, man the guns!". I have acknowledged errors of DX, you have blindly defended ME the whole time.

My opinion doesn't suck because I'm actually elaborating on it.

Kathy, on 27 December 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

It probably would have been a better game.

It would go up a few spots in my "Top 10," that's for sure.

[Jeff]

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"This game doesn't adhere to my completely tight, bullshit standards and therefore Bioware sucks! Here's what I would do differently."

Entitlement attitude. Drop it.

To put it nicely, I think what he's saying is about the whole "certain gamers who know how to make better games than Bioware who's been making games for nearly 20 years". Or anyone else for that matter. Another example would be like saying Steven Speilberg has been making movies for years, some guy who's never actually directed or made a movie could do it better. I think that's what he's getting at.

I've read a lot of fan fiction and it's not that great. Not as good as anything Bioware has come up with. I mean certain people wanted to take a mission in the game and turn it into a mindless spoon fed action sequence simply because they believed their choices didn't matter enough. Or they didn't like the design of the level and thought it should have been similar to the suicide mission in ME2.

People hark on about bad writing, but they've been spending too much time reading internet memes than playing the game. Reapers aren't killing organics, they're harvesting us. Reapers aren't even synthetic, they are a hybrid of organic and synthetic. Shows how much some people know. Then when you confront them with it, they go "Reapers are a hybrid?? Really? I thought they were synthetics". Clearly shows those who didn't like certain parts and want it redone how much they actually played the game.

[Gameplay Nut]

Dial V for Viper, on 27 December 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

That's a poor argument. Design flaws shouldn't force compensation. They shouldn't even be there. Saying that "Oh, it means you have to be up close" means that I lose another way of approaching a problem in a game that's all about free choice. It detracts from the experience. Both Deus Ex and especially ME1 had moments where I wanted to run to the basement, grab a hammer, and throw it through my monitor.

I do not consider it a design flaw, and neither should you. It's a case of merging RPG and FPS. Stat-based and skill-based. It's excellent, in my opinion. Like I said, if one does not like that then you can upgrade the related skills almost immediately and 'fix' it right away. it's nice that it starts off this way then goes classic FPS once you invested the skills. Variety is a good thing.

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As for the "shitty feel" of the guns, even Doom and Wolf3D had great feelings weapons.
UT99 had the best out of any game of that era, and it's still better than most modern games.

I can agree with that somewhat. Still I'd take it over Mass Effect's boring shooting in a heartbeat.

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The guns are much more accurate, sound better, and have more stopping power. It's a big step up. It's immediately noticeable between Deus Ex and TNM.

Look again, blind fanboy. Overall accuracy and stopping power is the same, as it should be.

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Can we get some elaboration here?

You have already been given enough of the details but keep reading on for further elaboration.

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Cover shooters involve fragile protagonists and require the player to make split second decisions that can end poorly. Having more than two planes of combat not only isn't fair, it isn't fun. Human Revolution is also much flatter than Deus Ex as a result, save for some huge set piece rooms.

Complete bullshit blind defending of the game.

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It's a limitation of the genre itself.

No it is not. The Saboteur, Red Dead Redemption, these are cover shooters done right and both have Y-Axis action, especially The Saboteur.

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You're failing to elaborate on why Game A sucks, and why Game B, a game generally regarded as flawed, is better. Same shit. That shit is blind

.

You are choosing not to read.

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I'm acknowledging both games as "all time greats," but you refuse to state exactly why Mass Effect suffers from poor level design.

Outright poor design, the facts:

-Overuse of out of place waist high walls. No effort put into this at all, how about make cover as boxes for once, anything but more of those copy and pasted walls.
-One plain
-Extreme overuse of Invisible walls.
-Contextual jump triggers. (more a gameplay design issue that adds to the low quality feel of the levels).

Opinions:

-Levels are too linear
-Little variety to art direction despite visiting many different planets. (Art direction problem that adds to the low quality feel of the levels)
-Cannot crouch or jump at one's free will (gameplay problem that adds to the low quality feel of the levels)

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Voice acting isn't a cost issue, it's a directing issue. My father has been working with voice actors for years, and I've sat in actual recording studios and seen the entire process unfold. Even the all time greats need quality directing or they fall flat.

You can get good results with cheap voice actors. Case in point, The Nameless Mod. It's got some janky stuff, but some of the people are total no names and do a good job.

Deus Ex suffered from the same problem nearly every Sega game had in the 90's - no direction with voice acting. Those are the kind of results you get when you get random staff members to read a few lines off of a piece of paper and go out to lunch.

Not quite. You either have talent, or you do not. At lot of VA's in the 90's were the developers themselves, thereby saving money for things more important . Direction is primary, but you need the talent too.

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My opinion doesn't suck because I'm actually elaborating on it.

That's Strawman bullshit. I'm wasting my time with you.

[Person of Color]

Gameplay Nut, on 27 December 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

I do not consider it a design flaw, and neither should you. It's a case of merging RPG and FPS. Stat-based and skill-based. It's excellent, in my opinion. Like I said, if one does not like that then you can upgrade the related skills almost immediately and 'fix' it right away. it's nice that it starts off this way then goes classic FPS once you invested the skills. Variety is a good thing.

Variety is a good thing, but it needs to be implemented right. There's no clear progression of gun wielding talents in Deus Ex. You're either garbage or Chuck Norris. JC needed to start out better and talent upgrades needed a more linear curve.

If you throw all your talent points into guns, you're still inaccurate until you hit Hong Kong. That's halfway through the game. Not cool.

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I can agree with that somewhat. Still I'd take it over Mass Effect's boring shooting in a heartbeat.

Mass Effect's shooting isn't "shitty," but I'll take UT99 over damn near anything.

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Look again, blind fanboy. Overall accuracy and stopping power is the same, as it should be.

Many of the enemies are weaker, and there are many new exclusive weapons that are stronger and still balanced, such as the EMP Gun. You don't need to waste one and a half assault rifle clips to take out four guys at medium range. The enemies also deal more damage which makes the game harder than Deus Ex.

As for the fanboy comment, I'm not the one defending an unpopular opinion for the sake of it. Most of The Internet will call Deus Ex's gunplay "shit," and own up the fact that certain things in it haven't aged well.

Like I said, it's still one of the best games ever made, but you can't hold certain parts of it up as examples for the Industry because Warren's boys fucked up a few important things, and dozens of smaller ones.

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You have already been given enough of the details but keep reading on for further elaboration.

No, I haven't. "Flat" isn't a valid complaint. Pacing, weapon strength, quality of setpieces, enemy count and placement, and objective placement are all key factors that add to the quality of a level. You can have a level that's "flat" and still have it play well.

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Complete bullshit blind defending of the game.

Overwhelming a player is never a good option. Otherwise you'll be stuck crouching behind crates 90% of the time, playing the game conservatively because you can't fucking see what's around you. That's a huge problem in a game where the lead character can't take more than six bullets, and there are 10 powerful enemies on screen.

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No it is not. The Saboteur, Red Dead Redemption, these are cover shooters done right and both have Y-Axis action, especially The Saboteur.

I'm not gonna lie, I skipped Red Dead Redemption because it was never released on PC, as I did with The Saboteur because it got average reviews.

It's two completely different implementations. You can't take down hordes of enemies in a game where you're jumping from ledge to ledge constantly. John Shepard is a soldier, he isn't a civilian spy going behind the lines. Wow look at how famous the first Human Spectre is, brb, gonna scale buildings and kill 10 guys to take over one radio tower. Hope no one sees the famous John Shepard LOL!

It's done correctly for the type of game Mass Effect is. Once again, you let objectivity take a backseat to personal preference. You're a super soldier who guns niggas down, and is famous throughout the galaxy.

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You are choosing not to read.

And you're choosing to let personal opinions dominate everything, regardless of rationality.

[Person of Color]

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Outright poor design, the facts:

-Overuse of out of place waist high walls. No effort put into this at all, how about make cover as boxes for once, anything but more of those copy and pasted walls.

Overused? Yes. They don't detract from the fun though. You can't deny the placement of them is awesome.

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-One plain

Not even the right word, and there are many battles that are dual plane in ME2, and most of them are in ME3.

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-Extreme overuse of Invisible walls.

Designing the game so that you don't fall off catwalks and ledges isn't poor design, it's common sense, especially considering some of the pitfalls in Mass Effect. Being able to fall off would just make things worse. It's not an "invisible wall," it's common sense. Would you rather they put ugly as shit railings everywhere?

Debris that blocks off parts of a level for added effect isn't exactly what I would call invisible. It's painfully obvious what you can and can't vault over.

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-Contextual jump triggers. (more a gameplay design issue that adds to the low quality feel of the levels).

Mostly useless unless you're scaling buildings Saboteur style, so I don't see the problem here.

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Opinions:

-Levels are too linear

A little variety wouldn't hurt, I can agree with that, but they aren't exactly shit either. Especially ME3 with it's open environment combat. There are multiple ways to kill enemies though, there's a sandbox effect there, and your freedom is based on loadout/class/squad selection. Changing those in later playthroughs can [i]completely]/i] change the way a battle progresses.

The variety isn't built into the levels, it's how you design your own "headcanon." It's more than made up for in other areas.

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-Little variety to art direction despite visiting many different planets. (Art direction problem that adds to the low quality feel of the levels)

Yeah because The Citadel, the Silversun Strip, Omega, Illium, Tuchanka, the Migrant Fleet, and Beckenstein all look the same. Oh wait, I'm sorry, they don't and that's bullshit. How many different shades of green do you want the trees? Do you want pink and purple fantasy stuff like WoW?

There's frozen shitholes, boiling hot shitholes, and garden worlds, just like gee, I don't know, real fucking life?

The reuse of door buttons and crates is annoying, but aside from that they share a similar artistic style with different content, just like every game ever. Half Life 2 has a feel, Deus Ex has a feel, Mass Effect has a feel.

Too much variety makes a game look like pieced together sack of shit. Fuck incoherence.

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-Cannot crouch or jump at one's free will (gameplay problem that adds to the low quality feel of the levels)

Why the shit would I want to crouch in a game that wouldn't award me for it? ME2/3 are all about fast action and being swarmed by enemies. If you aren't in cover you're running for your life or trying to Rambo three guys. You aren't sneaking up on people. It's Doom style in third person with cover shooter elements. The difference is that Doom actually needed a jump feature.

Adding complexity is worthless if you add it just for the sake of it.

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Not quite. You either have talent, or you do not. At lot of VA's in the 90's were the developers themselves, thereby saving money for things more important . Direction is primary, but you need the talent too.

They had the budget. This is Ion Storm we're talking about.

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That's Strawman bullshit. I'm wasting my time with you.

Strawman my ass. It took me two days and multiple posts to get you to outline "Why Mass Effect had bad level design." That was the central point of your argument.

You come into a thread, spout something no one agrees with, then expect us to just know why you think it sucks?

You bore me. You're fucking slow when you argue, and your points are typical "I can develop games better than Company X" bullshit. Peace.

[Carl Winslow]

Dial V for Viper, on 26 December 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Even the nearly perfect plot is held back by downright shit voice acting

You obviously can't understand the comedic power that the absurd delivery of these lines has.

also you dorks need to watch a good review of Mass Effect 3 ok?


Mass Effect as a franchise was never actually that great and the only people who enjoy the last entry seem to really enjoy vapid, uninteresting combat mechanics, poor story that just rips off anime and Deus Ex with writing by a lady who writes Phineas and Ferb gay sex fanfiction(!?), and having enough DLC shoved down their throat that they don't have to play the game to even be good. Mass Effect 3 is garbage and I will never understand why it's praised so highly.

[Gameplay Nut]

Colon Semicolon, on 27 December 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Mass Effect as a franchise was never actually that great and the only people who enjoy the last entry seem to really enjoy vapid, uninteresting combat mechanics, poor story that just rips off anime and

Should have stopped there:

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Deus Ex with writing by a lady who writes Phineas and Ferb gay sex fanfiction(!?), and having enough DLC shoved down their throat that they don't have to play the game to even be good. Mass Effect 3 is garbage and I will never understand why it's praised so highly.

The original Deus Ex, from the year 2000. A legendary game, go play it. Not the recent one.

And I understand why Mass Effect was praised so highly- ignorance. It's not garbage though, not as a whole. It has it's strong points, just not in gameplay and level design.

[Jeff]

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rips off anime and Deus Ex

As many of us stated, I'm sure Deus Ex has probably borrowed some of it's ideas from other stories. Just like other stories have borrowed certain ideas. I mean the whole Illuminati thing sounds like a conspiracy thing you find on the internet. It is not something that was born out of that game. They didn't come up with the original idea. If people expect something 100% original these days don't count on it. Nothing is 100% original. Taking a couple ideas here and there is nothing really.

Now if you are talking about the ending bit. Choice names may be similar, but they do not work the same way.

[Gameplay Nut]

Jeff, on 27 December 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

As many of us stated, I'm sure Deus Ex has probably borrowed some of it's ideas from other stories. Just like other stories have borrowed certain ideas. I mean the whole Illuminati thing sounds like a conspiracy thing you find on the internet. If people expect something 100% original these days don't count on it. Nothing is 100% original. Taking a couple ideas here and there is nothing really.

Now if you are talking about the ending bit. Choice names may be similar, but they do not work the same way.

Deus Ex's narrative (the original not Human Revolution) was inspired by the X-Files, Sci-Fi literature such as Fahrenheit 451, games in it's lineage such as System Shock and plenty more.
We all draw inspiration from somewhere, ideas do not just form from nothingness.

Dial V for Viper, on 27 December 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Not even the right word, and there are many battles that are dual plane in ME2, and most of them are in ME3.

I am no longer wasting my time on you with your ignorance as well as your straw man and ad hominem arguments but I'd just like to point out that I had already used "plane" correctly further up the thread in the right context, and that this was just a simple mistake.

[Jeff]

Gameplay Nut, on 27 December 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Deus Ex's narrative (the original not Human Revolution) was inspired by the X-Files,

X-Files was sort of born out of the Watergate scandal during Nixon's administration. Suspicious of government, etc. Sorry, I think I'm getting a bit off track.

[Person of Color]

Colon Semicolon, on 27 December 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

You obviously can't understand the comedic power that the absurd delivery of these lines has.also you dorks need to watch a good review of Mass Effect 3 ok?Mass Effect as a franchise was never actually that great and the only people who enjoy the last entry seem to really enjoy vapid, uninteresting combat mechanics, poor story that just rips off anime and Deus Ex with writing by a lady who writes Phineas and Ferb gay sex fanfiction(!?), and having enough DLC shoved down their throat that they don't have to play the game to even be good. Mass Effect 3 is garbage and I will never understand why it's praised so highly.

I wouldn't call the combat "Vapid and uninteresting," considering that you're talking to a guy who's beaten FreeSpace 2 on Insane difficulty. With a keyboard.

It's vapid if you play as a soldier and don't use biotics, that's for sure. ME1 is broken, ME2 is just good, ME3 is the tits. But no biotics = Generic Cover Shooter 2012 - DLC Edition.

Speaking of DLC - I don't buy that shit, I pirate it. EA is run by greedy Jews.

Gameplay Nut, on 27 December 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Should have stopped there:The original Deus Ex, from the year 2000. A legendary game, go play it. Not the recent one.And I understand why Mass Effect was praised so highly- ignorance. It's not garbage though, not as a whole. It has it's strong points, just not in gameplay and level design.

Both DE and DE:HR are worth playing.

Jeff, on 27 December 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

As many of us stated, I'm sure Deus Ex has probably borrowed some of it's ideas from other stories. Just like other stories have borrowed certain ideas. I mean the whole Illuminati thing sounds like a conspiracy thing you find on the internet. It is not something that was born out of that game. They didn't come up with the original idea. If people expect something 100% original these days don't count on it. Nothing is 100% original. Taking a couple ideas here and there is nothing really. Now if you are talking about the ending bit. Choice names may be similar, but they do not work the same way.

Deus Ex's plot is nothing but borrowed ideas, just like Mass Effect. What makes it special is how well they implemented it.

Gameplay Nut, on 27 December 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Deus Ex's narrative (the original not Human Revolution) was inspired by the X-Files, Sci-Fi literature such as Fahrenheit 451, games in it's lineage such as System Shock and plenty more.We all draw inspiration from somewhere, ideas do not just form from nothingness.I am no longer wasting my time on you with your ignorance as well as your straw man and ad hominem arguments but I'd just like to point out that I had already used "plane" correctly further up the thread in the right context, and that this was just a simple mistake.

Put more effort into your arguments, don't state opinion and bias as fact, and people won't have an issue with you. It's not your opinion so much as how you convey it.

Jeff, on 27 December 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

X-Files was sort of born out of the Watergate scandal during Nixon's administration. Suspicious of government, etc. Sorry, I think I'm getting a bit off track.

Yeah basically.