[Forge]

again he isn't going to overclock (it's on him to regret that at a later date)

for out of the box performance within budget he should stick with fx8350, i5-3570k, fx8320, i5-4570
in that order

right now overclocked i5s run circles around fx83xx chip because most game applications are single thread
multi-thread is on its way in and then the fx83xx chips will run circles around overclocked i5s

multi-thread will make i5s obsolete
the antiquated die-system will make fx83xx obsolete

we'll all be buying new boards and chips within 5 years and starting the whose better conversation all over again (though i'm impartial & get what i can afford atm)

[Person of Color]

The 83xx is never going to run circles around the i5 when overclocked. Even now, using stuff that's properly multithreaded, it can't keep up. It's not slow by any means, but it will never be superior. A Sandy Bridge will obliterate it in terms of IPC. It's no contest.

[Forge]

repost:

FX-8350 vs i5-3570K

http://www.cpu-world...5_i5-3570K.html

point taken. (when left at stock)

single thread performance - superior by far -i5
Multi-threaded performance - slightly better -fx8350
Memory-intensive applications - a bit more better -fx8350

an overclocked i5 will outperform a fx8350

i meant to say:
right now overclocked i5s run circles around fx83xx chip because most game applications are single thread
multi-thread is on its way in and then the overclocked fx83xx chips will outperform overclocked i5s

so getting an 83xx cpu is not a completely bad choice

[Forge]

saying to get an i5-3570K without anything more persuasive than an i5 overclocks better than an fx8350 doesn't pertain to his desire

when both are left at stock the difference in performance is negligible


if this is a factor take note that there are no AMD boards with "real" PCIe 3.0 support which may hinder getting the best performance out of any future upgrade to the video card

my suggestion for getting an i5 is to get a good 1155 board that supports those cards (and it can also be upgraded to an i7 later on)

the FX chips are fine, but there's no future in them. the die methods have gone as far as they can without running the chips into some ridiculous 220+ watt range. (i.e. the fx9590 4.7Ghz @220w. if it takes 220w just to get over 4.5Ghz you can keep that chip)

you'll save more than the difference of cost between the fx8350 & the i5 on your power bill in around a year. i5 = 77w, fx8350=125w

i7s are king of the hill and should be relevant for quite some time. plan for future upgrades

[Person of Color]

Forge, on 20 November 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

i meant to say:
right now overclocked i5s run circles around fx83xx chip because most game applications are single thread
multi-thread is on its way in and then the overclocked fx83xx chips will outperform overclocked i5s

so getting an 83xx cpu is not a completely bad choice

No, it still won't. The 83xx doesn't OC high enough to make up for the inferior IPC (Instructions per clock)

Maybe at 5.0GHz it's competitive, but getting 5.0GHz is as much work as getting a Haswell past 4.5, so it's a moot point (A Haswell running at 4.7 would kill it).

Forge, on 20 November 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

saying to get an i5-3570K without anything more persuasive than an i5 overclocks better than an fx8350 doesn't pertain to his desire

when both are left at stock the difference in performance is negligible

The thing is that these Intel chips are idiot proof to overclock, unlike the older Phenoms, and especially the Core 2 Quads, which were a fucking pain in the ass.

If you don't wanna go nuts, like I said, multi and voltage, just mess with those. You'll guarantee a minimum of 4.5 on Sandy and 4.3 on Ivy with just those two settings and a 212 EVO.

I can understand people saying "I don't want to overclock" with other architectures, but Sandy and Ivy Bridge are beyond simple. It's even simpler than overclocking a Pentium 1. Haswell is trickier.

You literally can't fuck it up, and you're getting an extra two years out of a product that costs the same. Overclocking has long been considered a "dark art" for a variety of legitimate reasons, but these chips are much different.

This is why I'm pushing this idea so hard. Ivy or Sandy, you can't fuck it up. You get the performance of a processor 2-3 generations down the line, right now.

Quote

if this is a factor take note that there are no AMD boards with "real" PCIe 3.0 support which may hinder getting the best performance out of any future upgrade to the video card

By the time it's an issue you'll have moved on to something else. We just started "flooding" PCI-E 1.1 slots a couple years back, and that standard was introduced in 2005.

If you're running tri-SLI Titans on PCI-E 2.0 there's like a 5% performance hit.

Quote

the FX chips are fine, but there's no future in them. the die methods have gone as far as they can without running the chips into some ridiculous 220+ watt range. (i.e. the fx9590 4.7Ghz @220w. if it takes 220w just to get over 4.5Ghz you can keep that chip)

AMD has gone surprisingly quiet about Cleveland Steamroller. It wouldn't surprise me if they're switching to a new socket. They also hired back an engineer from the A64 glory days and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it's seriously been put under the knife.

Quote

you'll save more than the difference of cost between the fx8350 & the i5 on your power bill in around a year. i5 = 77w, fx8350=125w

[Forge]

debatable

these are just the first i came across





somewhere in one of these they also debunked the urban legend about power consumption = bigger bill that seems to be spread around like gospel (even on those sites i linked to earlier)


i can probably go hunt down a few that say the i5 is better; so this back forth is not really productive.

i'm impartial so if he wants AMD, i say go for it. if he changes his mind and goes with Intel; good, go for it.

[Person of Color]

That isn't exactly what I would call a fair comparison.

It's an 8350 pushed to the absolute limits of it's silicon vs. a 3570k pushed to 80-90% of it's potential.

At that frequency, the 8350 will need GOOD water cooling, which makes it more expensive. Or, at the very least, an $80+ air cooler. I've pushed a 3570k to 4.5 with a Hyper 212 Evo and it peaked at 71c IIRC.

I'd also like to point out that I have near zero brand loyalty when it comes to parts. There are very rare exceptions like EVGA, XFX, and Biostar which have exceptional customer service.

No one cares about you. They care about the OEM's and retailers who will buy their shit en masse. If Intel cared about their customers they wouldn't have fucked up the heatspreader on Ivy/Haswell. OY VEY YOU WANT 5GHz?! BUY SOCKET 2011 GOY! THOSE HAVE SOLDERED HEATSPREADERS!

[Inspector Lagomorf]

This "discussion" has been very enlightening. I'll start looking at some i5 chipsets, then.

[Forge]

Forge, on 20 November 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

the FX chips are fine, but there's no future in them. the die methods have gone as far as they can without running the chips into some ridiculous 220+ watt range. (i.e. the fx9590 4.7Ghz @220w. if it takes 220w just to get over 4.5Ghz you can keep that chip)
... plan for future upgrades

Viper The Rapper, on 21 November 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

AMD has gone surprisingly quiet about Cleveland Steamroller. It wouldn't surprise me if they're switching to a new socket. They also hired back an engineer from the A64 glory days and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it's seriously been put under the knife.

out of all the banter, this is probably the most relevant

i would start with these:
http://www.amazon.co...&keywords=Intel
http://www.amazon.co...85134119&sr=1-1

i always promote the best board you can get within reason of budget - quality dictates performance, life expectancy, upgradability, etc.

the difference between the original AMD package and this package is $33.82 more

you could go with this board, but you'll need a sound card
http://www.amazon.co...&keywords=Intel

this wouldn't be a bad choice either:
http://www.amazon.co...O/ref=de_a_smtd

[Person of Color]

If you're on a budget, I've been VERY satisfied with my Z77-D3H. Three complaints (None of which you'll experience):

1. At high voltages, the VRM's run hot and need tons of airflow (You won't experience this unless you have an absolute rare dud of a Sandy Bridge). Unlike with their shitty AMD boards, it's easily manageable without mounting a fan directly on them. For you, they'll run lukewarm at best (Ivy Bridge chips take less voltage).
2. Despite completing an 8 hour and 12 hour Prime95 test, sometimes the system will fail to POST, and Gigabyte's OC recovery feature sucks. It always power cycles at least 3 times, and sometimes it can't recover itself and I have to flip the power switch, wait for it to cycle a few more times, then go into the BIOS and select "Save Settings and Exit." I'm pushing the limits of this chip, which is why.
3. LLC overcompensates at really high voltages (Again, you won't experience this, I'm pushing the limits of the silicon.)

For $117 you're practically stealing it. It's discontinued though, so get one while you can. Newegg is already gone.

http://www.staples.c...oduct_IM1NV9461

Forge, on 22 November 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

you could go with this board, but you'll need a sound card
http://www.amazon.co...&keywords=Intel

I used the TZ77XE4 in my friend's PC along with a 3570k. I absolutely love that board. My only two complaints are the lack of digital audio out, although I understand the rationale. It's a bare bones board built solely for performance. If you don't need that feature, you can live with the integrated audio.The other is that there is some weird setting I had to flip in the BIOS before it applied my overclocking settings. But the EFI setup on that board is shockingly beautiful and nice to use. Far, far nicer than my Gigabyte.

Oh, and the voltage regulators on that board are the tits. They run straight up ice cold. They didn't even get lukewarm at 4.5GHz. Actually, the whole board looks and feels very well made and expensive. I gave his chip moderately high voltage for one of those processors.

This board is also discontinued so grab one while you can if you want it. We had trouble getting one half a year ago, so act fast if you want it.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Against the advice of most of you, I went with the AMD FX-8350 and ASUS Sabertooth 990FX 2.0.

Reason: AMD FX-8350 was discounted on NewEgg to $169.99, and of the AMD motherboards, the Sabertooth looked to be the most reliable, if not pricey (also an added $15 discount on top of that for buying it in a combo with the AMD FX-8350).

So, went for best cost-performance ratio.

[Person of Color]

That's actually a pretty good deal. I still would have gone Intel though, it's only 30-50 dollars more.

That motherboard is really nice. You should play around with overclocking.

[MetHy]

Can I use this thread for the same purpose for myself?

So I got some money for christmas and as the PC which I've been using for 5-6 years is dying little by little (I can't even play the megaton version of duke without lag anymore...), I'm thinking of building a new one.

However I haven't kept up at all with new stuff regarding computers at ALL for a few years so I'm totally lost.

What would you guys recommended for a budget of between 300 and 400€? That would include motherboard, cpu, ram, gpu, case and power supply. I've already got a screen, keyboard/mouse, speakers and I'd be using the soundcard of the motherboard for at least a while.

For a same given price I'd rather buy something reliable and which wouldn't die on me after only a couple of years rather than something more powerful but not as reliable. Also I don't believe I'd ever have use for a quadcore. I'll probably be using windows7.

Thanks a lot

[Inspector Lagomorf]

I'm no economist so I don't know how computer parts are priced in Europe as opposed to the United States. My budget for my PC was $600-650 USD, and if I were you, I would save up more money. If you're switching your hard drive between motherboards, be prepared to do a Sysprep OOBE.

[Forge]

Comrade Major, on 03 December 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

Against the advice of most of you, I went with the AMD FX-8350 and ASUS Sabertooth 990FX 2.0.

nice buy. i'm sure you'll be happy with it.
could've saved a couple more bucks by going with the 8320 and getting pretty much the same performance just by enabling the turbo mode in the bios
but that's definitely the board i would recommend

[Forge]

MetHy, on 28 December 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Can I use this thread for the same purpose for myself?

what do you plan on doing with this comp? what's the most demanding app/game that'll be run on it?

if you run a bunch of old games on it that don't require much bang
get an fx8320, and an Asus M5A99FX Pro
video card - AMD R7 260X would probably serve
(depending on what you run it could probably be toned down some)

more powerful comp
i5-3570K, and a Aus P8Z77-V PRO LGA 1155
video card - AMD R9 270

just a starting point

[Person of Color]

Despite being glitchy in Polymer (Which isn't their fault), I gotta recommend Radeon cards these days. I've had my 6970 for two years, and my experience with drivers has been better than Nvidia. I have less issues with legacy software and none with modern software.

They give you more compute performance, wider memory buses, and better value for money.

On top of that, their new Mantle API is going to give Nvidia the shaft, and will definitely make DirectX shake in it's boots.

[MetHy]

Oh yeah I need a new hard drive as well damn

Well I don't know, I hardly ever do modern gaming. The only reason I get a new one is because this one is dying (parts dying one by one) and it also remained glitchy even after installing a new OS.
I think the most 'recent' and demanding game I have is Metro 2033, which I played fine at low resolution on my current computer.

If Radeons are glitchly with polymer I'd rather not to get that, I'll probably be playing Duke3D more than any other game.

That's why I think my budget is fine. I don't need the newest highest end stuff. But rather something known for being reliable, solid, glitch free.

[MetHy]

Okay here is what I'm thinking :

Motherboard : asus Z87-Pro
Processor : Intel Core i5-4570 (quad core 3.2ghz)
GPU : Nvidia geforce gtx 660 2gb
RAM : DDR3 Kingston 8gb PC3-12800 CAS 11
HDD : western digital caviar gp 500 g

Apparently the motherboard and the hardrive make for something silent and which uses less power which is what I'm also looking for.
This actually doubles my budget already, that would go for 614€ and I'm still looking for a case.
What do you guys think? I'm getting pretty excited already. I know this goes over the pre-established budget but I thought I might as well put a little more in since a computer lasts me around 5-6years anyway. I've got a little spare money as well as the christmas money anyway.

Is it better to take a case with power supply included or seperate? Does it even make a difference? Do I need 500-550 wat for something like that or would 480wat be fine? I can't find consumption of the gpu and hard drive in their specs

[The Commander]

I'd recommend a Gigabyte board, but that's just me.
You also want a case that doesn't have a PSU built into it. Sounds like it wouldn't be replaceable if that's the case.

[MetHy]

Holy shit. Well I think I might get a not so good gpu. also why a gigabyte board specifically?

[The Commander]

MetHy, on 29 December 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

Holy shit. Well I think I might get a not so good gpu

Ignore what I said about the wattage, I read your card wrong and thought it used a lot. Seems it only uses 140w, so what you said originally would be fine.
480w should be ok.
My gtx570 needs 550w

Also I recommend a Gigabyte because I have never had any problems with a Gigabyte board. I'd be interested in seeing what Viper says about this.

[MetHy]

Well I've never had a problem with my current Asus board so I dunno.

[MetHy]

It is common for CPU to come with their own ventilator?

For the Intel Core i5-4570 (3.2 GHz), in the comments section 2 people talk about the ventilator that comes with it. However nowhere it is said in the description that it does come with a ventirad....

[Forge]

i've never had problems with either my old Asus board or my current Gigabyte board.
They're both good choices.

here's an example of a power supply calculator:
http://www.extreme.o...culatorlite.jsp

there are dozens out there to chose from if you don't like this one

don't get a case with a psu. generally it's just a marketing ploy and they put the cheapest, crappiest psu in that they can find.

Quote

Intel Core i5-4570

I'm not the expert, but i would go with the 1155 ivy bridge over the 1150 haswell

and you might save a few bucks in the process

[Person of Color]

MetHy, on 29 December 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

It is common for CPU to come with their own ventilator?

For the Intel Core i5-4570 (3.2 GHz), in the comments section 2 people talk about the ventilator that comes with it. However nowhere it is said in the description that it does come with a ventirad....

Ventilator? I take it English isn't your first language. We call it a heatsink.

If it's a retail boxed processor, it will come with one. But it's crap if you intend to do any overclocking. Get a Hyper212 Evo if you want to overclock.

If you aren't comfortable with overclocking, go for a cheaper motherboard. If you aren't going to use the features of a $190 motherboard, don't buy it. You aren't gaining any reliability over a good quality motherboard that's fifty dollars or so less. Put it towards a video card.

I use a $115 motherboard, and have my i5-2500k overclocked to 4.5GHz, and I don't want or need the features the higher end boards have. All I need are good voltage regulators, and digital audio out so I can have my stereo receiver do all the leg work.

The Commander, on 29 December 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

Also I recommend a Gigabyte because I have never had any problems with a Gigabyte board. I'd be interested in seeing what Viper says about this.

Despite the glitchy "boot loop" issue my Z77-D3H has when I push my CPU to the absolute limits of it's silicon when OC'ing, I really do love this board. Before it was discontinued it was the best value in 1155 motherboards.

The Rev 3.0 AMD boards sucked, but the bottom line is that every motherboard company is spotty these days. Read reviews before you buy.

Forge, on 29 December 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

i've never had problems with either my old Asus board or my current Gigabyte board.
They're both good choices.

here's an example of a power supply calculator:
http://www.extreme.o...culatorlite.jsp

there are dozens out there to chose from if you don't like this one

don't get a case with a psu. generally it's just a marketing ploy and they put the cheapest, crappiest psu in that they can find.

Get a GOOD 600w unit like an Antec, Silverstone, or EVGA. Stay away from the Corsair CX series. They are nowhere near as good as the rest of their line up.

Quote

I'm not the expert, but i would go with the 1155 ivy bridge over the 1150 haswell

and you might save a few bucks in the process

I agree. If you ever want to overclock, you can get older Ivy Bridge and Sandy Bridge chips to go sky high on cheaper boards. Ivy and Sandy also have less settings you have to fuck around with compared to Haswell, they are pretty cut and dry. I haven't overclocked a Haswell yet, but I've done Ivy and Sandy and the only thing easier than those two is a Pentium 1.

[The Commander]

Viper, stop going on about over clocking your penis all the time.
Not everyone wants to use penis enlargers to gain that tiny bit more out of there machine.

[Person of Color]

Some people want all the power they can get.

Overclocking an i5 is skipping an upgrade cycle.

It's basically telling Jewegg to stick it where the sun don't shine.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Dial V for Viper, on 29 December 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

stick it where the sun don't shine.

(Couldn't resist.)

[Person of Color]

I love the Mannings and I fucking hate football.

I have so much respect for people who can hit it big like that and still be better people than 99% of the population.