[Player Lin]

Wait... are Serious Sam series' map designs so liner? I don't remember at all...

[Kathy]

These aren't real map designs.

[Marphy Black]

Serious Sam is not that linear, and it is not apt to lump SS in with Painkiller and Hard Reset. Serious Sam gives you full freedom to explore its absurdly large levels without impediment and rarely locks you into forced battles aside from the occasional boss or mini-boss showdowns just to mix things up. The only reason you didn't see similar mini-boss encounters in Duke 3D or Doom is due to the lack of scripting (Although Doom 2 has hard coded behavior for Dead Simple). Hence, SS's game progression is comparable to something with moderate scripting like Quake, albeit on a physically grand scale.

Painkiller and Hard Reset, on the other hand, are of a much different design. Instead of progressing through levels in an unrestrained fashion, you must enter a series of rooms/arenas that individually lock you in and force you to eliminate pre-defined waves of enemies before you can proceed. You're free to explore the map once the fighting is over, but overall, it's much more linear and confined. This is the style of gameplay that the new Shadow Warrior is following.

[Player Lin]

I ask that just because from Serious Sam : TFE and TSE, Serious Sam 2, and then Serious Sam 3. I spend so many time, do shitload of save/load my damn game (not in SS3 due the stupid score bonus for limited saving, nice job, Croteam. ) and try to finding anythings in the level and even only one main route to the end of level but there are shitload of route to get there, not that so liner at all. Also, in some levels, have some secrets as shortcut to skip some sections of level, or even give some extra routes for something funny/interesting.

That pic just confused me...

[AlektorophobiA]

Well, the early city levels of SS3 felt like the image, and games like Hard Reset are really like that.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Nah that's a played-out meme that doesn't represent any shooter discussed in this thread. Serious Sam 3's later levels are enormous arenas, and most of Hard Reset levels have a arena-style battles too - although much more confined. I can understand not liking either game, they both have their faults, but particularly in Serious Sam 3's case, linear level design isn't one of them. Remember it's much more labour intensive to make a level in an FPS today than it was in the 90's. Not saying that makes them better or more interesting, but there are reasons why we don't see levels like Doom anymore. Linear shouldn't be a bad word. There are tons of great linear shooters, most of Duke 3d is linear, Sin is linear (with some really neat branching story stuff), ditto NOLF and many other great games.

I distrust every attempt to summarize any complex discussion with a minimalist caricature that deliberately obscures inconvenient nuance. The fact that whoever made these memes had to stoop to such blatant dishonesty is an attempt to dismiss the bigger and more interesting discussion at hand.

[Ronin]

Mr. Tibbs, on 28 July 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Nah that's a played-out meme that doesn't represent any shooter discussed in this thread. Serious Sam 3's later levels are enormous arenas, and most of Hard Reset levels have a arena-style battles too - although much more confined. I can understand not liking either game, they both have their faults, but particularly in Serious Sam 3's case, linear level design isn't one of them. Remember it's much more labour intensive to make a level in an FPS today than it was in the 90's. Not saying that makes them better or more interesting, but there are reasons why we don't see levels like Doom anymore. Linear shouldn't be a bad word. There are tons of great linear shooters, most of Duke 3d is linear, Sin is linear (with some really neat branching story stuff), ditto NOLF and many other great games.

I distrust every attempt to summarize any complex discussion with a minimalist caricature that deliberately obscures inconvenient nuance. The fact that whoever made these memes had to stoop to such blatant dishonesty is an attempt to dismiss the bigger and more interesting discussion at hand.

They are not meant to be taken quite so literally, they do stand up though. Serious Sam's level design is basically a giant box with other boxes spread out to interrupt your path from what usually is A to B, you will never get lost you will never have to think. It's more like the illusion of non-linearity, CoD MW 1 (the only one I played and can reference) uses a similar approach in some of it's levels designs. In the Build games like Duke 3D, you have to search the area and figure out how the areas connect and actually make that hamster on a wheel in your brain run faster than a brisk walking pace.
When I think about non-linearity a good example would be ep 1 lvl 2 in Duke 3D, do you make your way through the porn shop or shoot the back upstairs window, throw in a pipe bomb then with a found jetpack fly in that way. In Serious Sam it's more of a case of do I walk around the right side of this building or the left.

Those diagrams give you the summery of each games level design, apart from the first one which I believe is real I may be wrong but I think it's a level from Doom.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Ronan, on 28 July 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

In the Build games like Duke 3D, you have to search the area and figure out how the areas connect and actually make that hamster on a wheel in your brain run faster than a brisk walking pace.
When I think about non-linearity a good example would be ep 1 lvl 2 in Duke 3D, do you make your way through the porn shop or shoot the back upstairs window, throw in a pipe bomb then with a found jetpack fly in that way.

Right but in Duke 3D there are tons of areas where it is essentially linear. The areas you highlight do stand out as some of the best levels and moments from the game but most cases you just duck off into a couple of side rooms for a few brief combat encounters, maybe a quick puzzle, grab a key and return to the critical path. Don't get me wrong, Duke 3D has some of the best level design ever but with a few exceptions it's still linear, Alan Blum and Levelord just mask it brilliantly. The best levels effectively display an illusion of choice; letting the player roam free within a little hub that's blocked off with keycards. That's not Serious Sam's bag, nor should it be. They have nothing in common outside of a macho lead and fun weapons.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

The branching keycard hub is still non-linear in comparison to the basic walkthrough experience found in a modern FPS.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Comrade Major, on 28 July 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

The branching keycard hub is still non-linear in comparison to the basic walkthrough experience found in a modern FPS.

If you choose to ignore Bioshock, STALKER and Far Cry.

[Ronin]

Mr. Tibbs, on 28 July 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

Right but in Duke 3D there are tons of areas where it is essentially linear. The areas you highlight do stand out as some of the best levels and moments from the game but most cases you just duck off into a couple of side rooms for a few brief combat encounters, maybe a quick puzzle, grab a key and return to the critical path. Don't get me wrong, Duke 3D has some of the best level design ever but with a few exceptions it's still linear, Alan Blum and Levelord just mask it brilliantly. The best levels effectively display an illusion of choice; letting the player roam free within a little hub that's blocked off with keycards. That's not Serious Sam's bag, nor should it be. They have nothing in common outside of a macho lead and fun weapons.

Sure what you say about Sam and Duke having little in common is true but it's more than extra rooms that contribute to the overall non-linear experience in the like of Duke 3D. For example you can't walk ten feet in Duke 3D without coming across a distraction or curiosity that takes you away from the "A to B" mindset, leading to a multi tiered journey, do you check the security camera to see if there is a grate above a troopers head that allows you to drop a pipe bomb then return to the camera to look at the aftermath of the explosion, that is after or before seeing if you can find any weapons or items to help you that might be stashed in the fridge that's locked but you can drop in to from a vent which you may have noticed because you bothered to examine the security camera. The extra things (interactivity or what ever) that you can do within the space you play add to the illusion of non-linearity.

[Fox]

Mr. Tibbs, on 28 July 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

If you choose to ignore Bioshock, STALKER and Far Cry.

Or to not ignore <insert 3 million names list>.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Ronan, on 28 July 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

Sure what you say is true but it's more than extra rooms that contribute to the overall non-linear experience in the like of Duke 3D. For example you can't walk ten feet in Duke 3D without coming across a distraction or curiosity that takes you away from the "A to B" mindset, leading to a multi tiered journey, do you check the security camera to see if there is a grate above a troopers head that allows you to drop a pipe bomb then return to the camera to look at the aftermath of the explosion, that is after or before seeing if you can find any weapons or items to help you that might be stashed in the fridge that's locked but you can drop in to from a vent which you may have noticed because you bothered to examine the security camera. The extra things (interactivity or what ever) that you can do within the space you play add to the illusion of non-linearity.

Well said. Build levels have tons of exciting places to explore. You're right in that there really isn't anything like the best Build levels on offer in today's shooters. But for me, there are exciting current-gen shooters and that default meme response doesn't address/chooses to ignore. It is good for a chuckle.

[Player Lin]

AlektorophobiA, on 28 July 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Well, the early city levels of SS3 felt like the image

Well, those levels just made SS3 looks like "modern" for the game setting or whatever else, but I feel they're still OK...

[OpenMaw]

While certain people want to argue whether or not games of the ilk of Painkiller/Serious Sam/Hard Reset are like Duke/Shadow Warrior or not is a discussion that can go round-and-round, I think the important aspect that needs to be understood is that these games have more in common with their FPS ancestors than the modern military shooter does. They have "secrets" they have many weapons, usually over the top or intentionally unrealistic, hordes of varied enemies that are not just "russian guy with rifle" or "middle eastern guy with rifle"

And while SS3 did have some linear stuff in the beginning, even in those instances there were areas you could back track to, nooks and crannies to explore, even a few jumping puzzles you had to figure out to get extra bonuses.

The key difference is that games like Duke, Doom, and SW all basically had you relying on finding secrets to really make your life easier. Duke was probably the more forgiving of the lot, but finding those secrets gave you access to the firepower earlier on than the normal level flow would give it to you. Finding health, ammo, guns... That's something that made the exploration rewarding. "I just want to see what's next. Maybe there's a new weapon, or some extra health around here."

I still don't get why this new SW seems to stray away from that. Rise of the Triad seems to show that the old style gameplay experience can work just fine with a modern crowd as long as you are TOTALLY FAITHFUL to it.

[Kathy]

What kind of modern crowd? I get the impression that "old school" is mostly preferred the same crowd from the 90s. And that's the main target audience of ROTT's remake, it seems.

[OpenMaw]

Kathy, on 29 July 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

What kind of modern crowd? I get the impression that "old school" is mostly preferred the same crowd from the 90s. And that's the main target audience of ROTT's remake, it seems.

Sure, but i've spoken with a number of people who's home territory would be the flavor-of-the-week Call of Duty, or the more modern serious takes on shooters. One of my friends, who just can't play the old games because of the "horrible graphics" thought the new ROTT looked really awesome and refreshing. I think a lot of gamers are quietly getting tired of the same, tired, overly serious tone of shooters that we've been weathering for years. They want something more out of the experience. The irony is going backwards in time would actually reveal where the depth really lies.

[Kathy]

You're talking about too many points which aren't necessary connected. Serious tone is a thematical element of a shooter, which wasn't defined much during early 90s. Then there is whole "old school" gameplay aspect. And I don't know if it is fair to discuss CoDs and BFs without mentioning MP which is "more out of the experience" and probably main reasons where popularity of modern shooters sprung out.

In summary, it's not that ironic to go backward in some elements since the so-called progress of modern shooter resulted from business initiative and mainstream popularity. It is only natural to try and find the proper turn where shooters perhaps should have headed. Maybe somewhere along the Half-Life but without trying to appease mainstream too much. ROTT obviously isn't trying that, nor it should. Of course going way backward is also an answer to "modern shooter" tiredness, but I doubt it'll provide necessary incentive for the genre to go forward.

P.S. Sorry for overanalysing.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Release date will announced when the gameplay trailer drops next week.

https://twitter.com/_ShadowWarrior

[Kathy]

Release date for a release date? Classy...

[Micky C]

Kathy, on 07 August 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Release date for a release date? Classy...

Devolver Digital did that all the time with Serious Sam.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

[Mr. Tibbs]

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Looks brown. Even the reds look brown.

[OpenMaw]

Comrade Major, on 08 August 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Looks brown. Even the reds look brown.

You'd find less brown in a used latrine.

[Jimmy]

Garbage.

[MusicallyInspired]

I have a feeling different areas of the game have different stylized colour palettes. This being one.

[Radar]

What is that? A mutated pelican?

[Fox]

That's an orange tinting, not brown.

[termit]

Mr. Tibbs, on 08 August 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

This screenshot is not representing actual visuals. I played beta for two hours yesterday and I really like how environment looks in motion. I never been in Japan, but some levels reminds me of old streets of Thailand and Singapore, which is cool.