[Mr. Tibbs]

 termit, on 08 August 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

This screenshot is not representing actual visuals. I played beta for two hours yesterday and I really like how environment looks in motion. I never been in Japan, but some levels reminds me of old streets of Thailand and Singapore, which is cool.

Not fair

There have already been tons of shots showing off greens, blues and reds. The game has a vibrant colour palate. Termit, are there any modern urban levels? I'm hoping for at least a couple of seedy city locations.

[----]

 Mr. Tibbs, on 08 August 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

... Termit, are there any modern urban levels? I'm hoping for at least a couple of seedy city locations.

This. If those aen't in that would be the next point of the remake changing what made the original (aside different enemies, different gameplay, different main character, etc ...)

[Mr. Tibbs]

Having recently experienced what happens when you're too slavish to the source material my advice to Flying Wild Hog - GO NUTS! Granted Flying Wild Hog is in a better position having created their own engine, being a veteran team who've shipped multiple beloved games, have better source material, a budget, creative licence to make whatever game they like etc... so that's not really fair.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I think Shadow Warrior (2013) looks cool. Are there any other shooters coming out later this year now that Wolfy's been pushed back? It seems like slim pickins.

[----]

 Mr. Tibbs, on 08 August 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

Having recently experienced what happens when you're too slavish to the source material my advice to Flying Wild Hog - GO NUTS!

The truth is in the middle ground.

Stray too far away and you end up with the same reception you had if you are too close to the ancient original.

IPs are there for a reason. This here could have been named Asian-Fighter or so, because games in the same IP should have more in common than just the same name and taking place on the same continent.


Look, there is this Mars-Rover simulator on Steam now, wehere you can drive around on Mars ... and it is NOT named DooM, and even if it was. It still wouldn't be a DooM-Game.

[Jblade]

 Mr. Tibbs, on 08 August 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

Having recently experienced what happens when you're too slavish to the source material my advice to Flying Wild Hog - GO NUTS! Granted Flying Wild Hog is in a better position having created their own engine, being a veteran team who've shipped multiple beloved games, have better source material, a budget, creative licence to make whatever game they like etc... so that's not really fair.

I disagree here; the 'problem' with RoTT is that essentially if it weren't for the sprite platforms it's levels would be at about the same complexity of Wolfenstein 3D's, just with floor textures and a higher ceiling (and traps of course) Shadow Warrior is far more complex (from a level design and gameplay perspective) and both it and Duke would translate very well to the modern environment, if done properly. Duke and SW were THE precursors for realistic and plausible environments after all (But built with gameplay in mind first and foremost) In anycase I was under the impression that the biggest issue with RoTT2013 was the checkpoints; do we know if this SW has manual saving?

Put another way, RoTT has aged a shitload less gracefully than Shadow Warrior and Duke Nukem.

[termit]

 Mr. Tibbs, on 08 August 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

Not fair

There have already been tons of shots showing off greens, blues and reds. The game has a vibrant colour palate. Termit, are there any modern urban levels? I'm hoping for at least a couple of seedy city locations.

I played only 4 chapters and I guess urban levels should be later.

[Mr. Tibbs]

 James, on 09 August 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

I disagree here; the 'problem' with RoTT is that essentially if it weren't for the sprite platforms it's levels would be at about the same complexity of Wolfenstein 3D's, just with floor textures and a higher ceiling (and traps of course) Shadow Warrior is far more complex (from a level design and gameplay perspective) and both it and Duke would translate very well to the modern environment, if done properly. Duke and SW were THE precursors for realistic and plausible environments after all (But built with gameplay in mind first and foremost) In anycase I was under the impression that the biggest issue with RoTT2013 was the checkpoints; do we know if this SW has manual saving?

Put another way, RoTT has aged a shitload less gracefully than Shadow Warrior and Duke Nukem.

Right. I never considered ROTT to be in the same league as a Duke, Blood or Shadow Warrior. It's not as ambitious or complex. It mostly got by on Tom Hall's charm and the DOIP's wacky creativity to mask the dated engine and cut-n-paste level design.

It does suck that no teams have successfully attempted that kind of level design for over a decade. Today it's either extremely linear or open-world. I wish there was something in the middle.

Fuegerstef, I agree with you. Shadow Warrior bears nothing in common with the original - outside of Scott and George wanting the game to be profitable. That's a completely valid reason to write off the project. Personally, I'm just treating it like a new i.p. I really enjoyed Hard Reset (faults and all) so I'm happy that Flying Wild Hog has more work. I want to see more mid-tier shooters in price and scope. The end result will be positive. I enjoyed Blood Dragon and I thought Gunslinger was extremely creative in it's presentation, if not mechanically. At least some of the profits will go on to fund the development of Digital Devolver's other projects like Serious Sam 4.

[----]

 Mr. Tibbs, on 09 August 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Fuegerstef, I agree with you. Shadow Warrior bears nothing in common with the original - outside of Scott and George wanting the game to be profitable. That's a completely valid reason to write off the project. Personally, I'm just treating it like a new i.p. I really enjoyed Hard Reset (faults and all) so I'm happy that Flying Wild Hog has more work. I want to see more mid-tier shooters in price and scope. The end result will be positive. I enjoyed Blood Dragon and I thought Gunslinger was extremely creative in it's presentation, if not mechanically. At least some of the profits will go on to fund the development of Digital Devolver's other projects like Serious Sam 4.

I fully agree with this. I will probably enjoy the game (as I enjoyed Hard Reset ... and maybe they fixed some of HR's problems for SW). The only downside is that if you and me treat it as a new IP to enjoy it, it still "occupies" the old IP which won't get a proper remake/reboot/reload now because of this.

EDIT: And if the funding for SS4 is invested into a few new ideas for that franchise the money is well placed.

[Kristian Joensen]

I don't see how a game with the same setting, the same fictional universe(With Zilla Enterprises etc), the same main character(A younger Lo Wang is still Lo Wang), very similar humor and several of the same weapons is not a proper entry in the Shadow Warrior IP. IMO people are greatly overemphasizing differences while de-emphasizing similarities.

[----]

@Kristian.

THe most important similarity wihtin the same IP and the same genre (FPS) should be gameplay. And that is very different from the original, from what I have seen.

Now add the other stuff:

- Different (opposed to technically updated) look and fell of the environments.
- Changed gameplay mechanics (shooting,health, etc)
- Different main character (same name, but hey, there is a catholic preacher in germany with the same name as I have ... we don't have much in common, trust me)
- Different tone of the game (humour, etc...)
- Different way of storytelling

Change one or two of the above (and update them to modern mechanics) and we are within the same IP. Change all of it at once and we have a new IP with the game's and character's same name.


Here is another example:

Imagine somebody would make a sequel to Duke Nukem 3D. And in this sequel you change the mood and humour to goofy and clownish, change the character to be more of a Jersey Shore dude, change the gameplay mechanics to regenerating health/ego, change level design from exploration to linear corridors, add scripted sequences for telling the story ... that game would have the same universe, the same main character, quite similar humour ... and even some of the same weapons. But I bet this game wouldn't be received that well among fans and reviewers.

[Kristian Joensen]

"- Different main character
- Different tone of the game (humour, etc...)"

I simply disagree that these are different enough to matter, from what I can tell from gameplay videos and interviews the tone is mostly the same and like I said young Lo Wang is still Lo Wang. The others I think are good things for the most part. I guess we are just gonna have to disagree.

There are vastly fewer differences between Shadow Warrior 2013 and Shadow Warrior 1997 than there were between Duke Nukem 3D and Duke Nukem 2. If both Duke 2 and Duke 3D get to count as Duke games(IMO they certainly should) then this is most definetly a Shadow Warrior game.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. It is sorta like some people were claiming that the portals in Prey were just "glorified doors" when I don't know of any doors even remotely like them or how where some people claim DNF was incoherent I say it had diverse and varied environments. From all the interviews, screenshots and gameplay footage I expect to wildly enjoy Shadow Warrior 2013 both as a game and as an entry in the Shadow Warrior IP.

[----]

 Kristian Joensen, on 09 August 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

If both Duke 2 and Duke 3D get to count as Duke games(IMO they certainly should) then this is most definetly a Shadow Warrior game.

That's why I said "same genre" in my post, although I was thinking more of other spinoffs like that one Tomb Raider game which name escapes me right now or other stuff.

[MusicallyInspired]

I can't agree that the two Shadow Warriors aren't vastly different, but I'm holding out on judging it before I play it. Here's hoping for a demo.

[Mr.Deviance]

Maybe the game has dynamic post fx that change their nuance based on triggers that you touch when you move from one area of the map to another.

[Jimmy]

 Kristian Joensen, on 09 August 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

I simply disagree that these are different enough to matter, from what I can tell from gameplay videos and interviews the tone is mostly the same and like I said young Lo Wang is still Lo Wang. The others I think are good things for the most part. I guess we are just gonna have to disagree.

You are such a patsy. Even the developers say that the tone is different. The only person denying any difference is you.

[Kristian Joensen]

 Jimmy, on 09 August 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

You are such a patsy. Even the developers say that the tone is different. The only person denying any difference is you.

So I am a patsy for disagreeing with you? Thanks for the information.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Pretty busy shot!

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Dat fish.

[MusicallyInspired]

Dopefish?

Also nice to see them without the mask. Maybe you can damage them so much they break off?

[Hank]

 fuegerstef, on 09 August 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

THe most important similarity wihtin the same IP and the same genre (FPS) should be gameplay. And that is very different from the original, from what I have seen.

Now add the other stuff:

- Different (opposed to technically updated) look and fell of the environments.
- Changed gameplay mechanics (shooting,health, etc)
- Different main character (same name, but hey, there is a catholic preacher in germany with the same name as I have ... we don't have much in common, trust me)
- Different tone of the game (humour, etc...)
- Different way of storytelling

Change one or two of the above (and update them to modern mechanics) and we are within the same IP. Change all of it at once and we have a new IP with the game's and character's same name.


Here is another example:

Imagine somebody would make a sequel to Duke Nukem 3D. And in this sequel you change the mood and humour to goofy and clownish, change the character to be more of a Jersey Shore dude, change the gameplay mechanics to regenerating health/ego, change level design from exploration to linear corridors, add scripted sequences for telling the story ... that game would have the same universe, the same main character, quite similar humour ... and even some of the same weapons. But I bet this game wouldn't be received that well among fans and reviewers.

That's the real trick, isn't it: Who do you expect to buy your game?

Hunting down a Japanese World dominating Big Shot was done with the first instalment of Shadow Warrior. Do the buying fans need a repeat? I for one, am hoping to find and fight something new. It's that simple, or complex.

[Kathy]

 fuegerstef, on 09 August 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

Imagine somebody would make a sequel to Duke Nukem 3D. And in this sequel you change the mood and humour to goofy and clownish, change the character to be more of a Jersey Shore dude, change the gameplay mechanics to regenerating health/ego, change level design from exploration to linear corridors, add scripted sequences for telling the story ... that game would have the same universe, the same main character, quite similar humour ... and even some of the same weapons. But I bet this game wouldn't be received that well among fans and reviewers.

[ReaperMan]

 Mr. Tibbs, on 09 August 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Right. I never considered ROTT to be in the same league as a Duke, Blood or Shadow Warrior. It's not as ambitious or complex. It mostly got by on Tom Hall's charm and the DOIP's wacky creativity to mask the dated engine and cut-n-paste level design.

Honestly though, for a Wolfenstein 3d engine based game its pretty ambitious.

[Micky C]

 ReaperMan, on 09 August 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

Honestly though, for a Wolfenstein 3d engine based game its pretty ambitious.

I find it ironic that the original ROTT was a game that was trying to push the boundaries of its engine's limitations in every way possible. ROTT 2013 however has dumbed many things down compared to today's shooters in things like AI and weapons among others. I mean a heat seeking missile and other stuff was probably revolutionary at the time but it's so darn standard these days, at least technically speaking. I hope interceptor's next title is more ambitious and original on its own merits.

Meanwhile ROTT itself continues to clock up (minor) problems as I play through. Just now one enemy walked forward and fell into a pool of lava. Seriously? Just because you're trying to make them play like the original AI doesn't mean they have to be that stupid.

Also, another annoyance is that in some of the high tech levels with lots of doors, the enemies like to gather right on the other side of a door. So they're too close to use rockets on them as you open the door. The problem is as you step away from the door so you can shoot them without being hit by splash damage, the door closes lightning fast, making this completely impossible. WTF? It's all the little issues like that which add up to really drag this game down. Seriously needed more outside playtesting.

Edit: Doh. Getting my threads mixed up here. Too much talk about ROTT going on in this thread damnit!

[Mr.Deviance]

 fuegerstef, on 09 August 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

Imagine somebody would make a sequel to Duke Nukem 3D. And in this sequel you change the mood and humour to goofy and clownish, change the character to be more of a Jersey Shore dude, change the gameplay mechanics to regenerating health/ego, change level design from exploration to linear corridors, add scripted sequences for telling the story ... that game would have the same universe, the same main character, quite similar humour ... and even some of the same weapons. But I bet this game wouldn't be received that well among fans and reviewers.

It was already made and it's called Duke Nukem Forever.
It was a flop, you should look it up.

[Micky C]

That's the point!!!!!!!! Although the humor was quite different.

Haha I'm so wasted and my bus doesn't come for at least half an hour :/

Anyway yeah I'm sure this game will be alright. Will definitely pick it up at least on sale. Won't be exactly the same as shadow warrior but it's made by veterans of the genre. Hard Reset wasn't all bad.

Ps I was at a 21st birthday party, an the place we were at charge $19 for a jug of cider! What a ripoff!!!
I can get the same thing for $10 at other places.
Ah well. My spelling is still pretty good anyway.
Wrote the most hilarious fortran program for a friend yesterday after a few drinks. And it was bug free! (Almost). Long story short: he was gay. And computers don't lie!

Edit: spelling fixes. (Don't judge me).

[OpenMaw]

I think some coffee is in order.

[Micky C]

Whoa dude it's after midnight and I need some sleep. Caffeine (is that the right spelling? I'm trusting autocorrect on that one) isn't the answer!

Anyway good news my bus came super early, which is kinda annoying since I might have missed it but at least I'll get home sooner. Then I'll drink plenty of water (don't want a hangover eh), get some sleep and probably regret what I've posted here (but not really).
Whoa I'm like one minute away from my house. Busses travel fast when there's no traffic!

Edit: spelling fixes again (I'm normally pretty good at this).

[Kathy]

I'm still amazed people are posting from phones. Maybe I should get one myself...

[Inspector Lagomorf]

 Mr.Deviance, on 10 August 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

It was already made and it's called Duke Nukem Forever.
It was a flop, you should look it up.

[MusicallyInspired]

I post from my phone all the time. I hate the touch keyboard and predictive text, though.