[Hendricks266]

Sanek, on 18 March 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

Why fix something that already works? And works perfectly fine.

This is equivalent to saying the EDuke32 team should have quit at r3634.

[Sanek]

Hendricks266, on 18 March 2018 - 09:38 AM, said:

This is equivalent to saying the EDuke32 team should have quit at r3634.

I'm not saying that EDuke32 needs to be stopped. However, the particular mods is completely another matter.

[Hendricks266]

Sanek, on 18 March 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

I'm not saying that EDuke32 needs to be stopped. However, the particular mods is completely another matter.

Do you think that in 3000 revisions, EDuke32 has not improved the quality of life for players of an unmodified Duke 3D? If yes, then the same applies to every mod ever made. If not, you would be wrong.

[Gambini]

We are working on a new version, for which we use up to date snapshots, and if there happens to be a problem, we stumble upon it and workaround or report it, depending on the situation.

People who wants to play the mod that was finished in 2013, should stick to the exe we provided since it is the one that works like it should and, we the developers of the mod, know it works as we know it should work. It won´t take any advantage of newer snapshots since none of the new features are applied, but instead it´s prone to suffer from all kind of side effects we all know newer additions, features, changes produce.

So far i know of one person who tried the mod with a modern snapshot and he found a progress breaking bug, let alone if I play the mod that way, i´m sure i will find all kind of shading/visibility changes, changes in AI, performance differences, etc.

I support Eduke32 progress, but I´ve always found my old projects broken one way or another when running them with newer snapshots, the longer they have been finished, the larger the amount of problems that arouse. This is a mod which features lot of things which rely on specific parameters that were given at the time it was released, five years ago. Pretending it should work on newer snapshots as it was before is naive and should not weight over the experience we want the players to live.

EDIT: Not to mention they´d miss the awesome intro logo, which creates the mood for an even more awesome playtime.

[Sanek]

Gambini, on 18 March 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

So far i know of one person who tried the mod with a modern snapshot and he found a progress breaking bug, let alone if I play the mod that way, i´m sure i will find all kind of shading/visibility changes, changes in AI, performance differences, etc.

I support Eduke32 progress, but I´ve always found my old projects broken one way or another when running them with newer snapshots, the longer they have been finished, the larger the amount of problems that arouse.

This. EDuke32 is evolving and it's fine, but unfortunately it's breaking mods that was made for older versions. So, the authors of these mods is almost forced to keep up with the newer versions of the port if they want their mods to be played in a present time.

Why don't you just say in txt file that your mod is compatible with the included version of the port only, and replacing it is not recommended? Or it's just the launcher that suggests to download the newest version is what causing the problem?

[Never Forgotten]

Sanek, on 18 March 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

Why don't you just say in txt file that your mod is compatible with the included version of the port only, and replacing it is not recommended? Or it's just the launcher that suggests to download the newest version is what causing the problem?

That's what I'm going to have to do with Atomic Crisis, I started it on an older version and I just swapped to a newer one, by the grace of God it works fine, but I'm sticking with this version from here on out... last time I didn't use an updated version was with MetArt Miracle, and it has a nasty sky glitch.

[Perro Seco]

Hendricks266, on 18 March 2018 - 10:09 AM, said:

Do you think that in 3000 revisions, EDuke32 has not improved the quality of life for players of an unmodified Duke 3D?

I appreciate all your work with EDuke32 (without it I wouldn't be able to work on my TC) and the continuous adaptations to modern operating systems, but I find that the latest revisions have more bugs than older ones like the one I'm using (r4525):

• The echo effect doesn't work.
  
• Neither the fog (you said it wasn't a bug, but why altering it then?).
  
• The demo cam also fails (I have to fix it with some CON modifications).
  
• Teleport sound doesn't always play.
  
• Elevators with lotag 18 or 19 sometimes play wrong sounds.
  
• When player dies or uses the "look right/left" feature, the screen becomes pixelated.
  
• And now, recently, I can't use the beautiful widescreen modes (my screen resolution is 1280x800, I don't know if that's a problem).

I really would like to help, but my coding skills suck, so the only thing I can do if you're interested, is create a new thread with all those bugs and try to search the latest functioning revisions for each one.

[Danukem]

Sanek, on 18 March 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

Why don't you just say in txt file that your mod is compatible with the included version of the port only, and replacing it is not recommended? Or it's just the launcher that suggests to download the newest version is what causing the problem?

It's very rare that anyone reads those texts anyway. This discussion is getting repetitive and unnecessary.

@Perro Seco: Starting a new thread in the bugs forum listing all of the known bugs and when they started sounds like an excellent idea.

[Micky C]

Sanek, on 18 March 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

Why fix something that already works? And works perfectly fine.

[VGA]

I like the recent changes to the mouse control, I don't want to use older versions of eduke32.

Anyway, casual players will use the recommended build and more adventurous or more experienced types should be able to use current builds.

[Mere_Duke]

VGA, on 19 March 2018 - 01:16 AM, said:

I like the recent changes to the mouse control, I don't want to use older versions of eduke32.

Anyway, casual players will use the recommended build and more adventurous or more experienced types should be able to use current builds.

Hmm, what changes? I played Forever2013 recently with the included exe and found no big difference with the current eduke.

[Danukem]

In my case I find the 2013 exe to be hard to play on my laptop because I can't use the screen resolutions I want without major issues.

Just be aware that you may encounter visual or gameplay glitches when using a newer executable and they could potentially be very serious (like the game breaking one that Nightfright recently discovered that later got fixed as a result). As Gambini said, the next release will use the latest build. Obviously, people can ultimately do what they want to do. I don't think there's anything more to say about it that hasn't already been said.

[enderandrew]

I've never tried DNF 2013 before. I tried launching it with the latest Synthesis snapshot yesterday and there appeared to be some sort of cinematic opening, but it didn't appear to render correctly. There was also a movie poster in the center of the screen the whole time. I started a new game, and the movie poster stayed in the center of the screen obstructing my view, making it basically unplayable.

In my testing, I have a D:\Duke3D\ folder with EDuke32 and everything in it. I created a sub-folder of D:\Duke3D\DNF\ I modified the bat file launcher to launch from D:\Duke3D\ with my synthesis build of EDuke32, and just pass on the GameDir value for DNF.

In that sense, I can understand why people say you might just want to used the packaged executable for some of these mods if they don't work with newer snapshots. But it is hard to say if the mod wasn't designed properly and that is why it broke with newer snapshots, or if EDuke32 development is effectively creating regressions.

But since there is supposedly work being done to create an updated version of this mod eventually, it might be nice to put out a patch so that it will work with the latest EDuke32.

[VGA]

Mere_Duke, on 19 March 2018 - 03:03 AM, said:

Hmm, what changes? I played Forever2013 recently with the included exe and found no big difference with the current eduke.

Very recent changes in eduke32 made the mouse smoother and more accurate. Some people notice it more than others.

[Danukem]

enderandrew, on 19 March 2018 - 07:04 AM, said:

But since there is supposedly work being done to create an updated version of this mod eventually, it might be nice to put out a patch so that it will work with the latest EDuke32.

The problem is that maps and code have already undergone a lot of revisions for the update, and that's WIP stuff that shouldn't be released as a patch. We would have to go back to the released version, then figure out what has to be changed (if anything), and make updates solely for the sake of compatibility with the newest EDuke32 revision. That's a significant amount of redundant work when we are already going slow due to real life and other projects. Plus, that would be interpreted as an open-ended commitment to keeping the 2013 version fully compatible with the latest builds. Let's say we target the current revision for a compatibility update, and then something else get broken in a revision two months from now. Then people would ask us to update the old version again.

[enderandrew]

Trooper Dan, on 19 March 2018 - 11:27 AM, said:

The problem is that maps and code have already undergone a lot of revisions for the update, and that's WIP stuff that shouldn't be released as a patch. We would have to go back to the released version, then figure out what has to be changed (if anything), and make updates solely for the sake of compatibility with the newest EDuke32 revision. That's a significant amount of redundant work when we are already going slow due to real life and other projects. Plus, that would be interpreted as an open-ended commitment to keeping the 2013 version fully compatible with the latest builds. Let's say we target the current revision for a compatibility update, and then something else get broken in a revision two months from now. Then people would ask us to update the old version again.

I didn't suggest backporting all changes or releasing what you have currently (though some advocate for releasing early and often) but rather just loading the 2013 release in the current version of EDuke32, seeing what breaks and release a small fix for that alone. Maybe it is just a matter of how tile IDs are handled or something like that which is simple.

You're also saying people on other platforms can't play DNF 2013 currently if the mod only works with the included executable, since other platforms aren't using a Windows executable.

[Danukem]

enderandrew, on 19 March 2018 - 12:08 PM, said:

just loading the 2013 release in the current version of EDuke32, seeing what breaks and release a small fix for that alone

It's not as easy as you make it sound. It can take a lot of testing to find out what breaks. Also, even if the code side turns out to be trivial (which it probably is), there could be a lot of map work that is required. Ever heard the expression "once burned, twice shy" ? Gambini has been burned pretty bad more than once by Eduke32 revisions changing the way shading works and making other changes that affect map appearance. He is 100% committed to his maps looking absolutely the way he intended, and he notices stuff that a lot of other people don't, or don't care much about. I can tell you with certainty that he is not going through all the maps to possibly make tedious changes for a compatibility update. No offense, but even explaining this is time wasted in my opinion.

[enderandrew]

Trooper Dan, on 19 March 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

No offense, but even explaining this is time wasted in my opinion.

I explained that Mac and Linux users can't even run your mod and you're saying it isn't worth your time to even write a paragraph in response to me.

You're telling me you don't want people running your mod.

Duly noted. I won't waste my time on your releases.

[Danukem]

enderandrew, on 19 March 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

I explained that Mac and Linux users can't even run your mod and you're saying it isn't worth your time to even write a paragraph in response to me.

You're telling me you don't want people running your mod.

Duly noted. I won't waste my time on your releases.

You can do what you want. You can play it with the current EDuke32 revision right now if you feel like it, and probably have a good experience overall. All I'm saying is that there won't be a compatibility update due to the reasons already explained. Mac and Linux users, if they have an executable, are free to try their luck, just like with any other mod. If you want to miss out on the new version because you are annoyed that there wasn't a compatibility update in the mean time, then that's your business.

[Mark]

I got caught up in the same issue as Gambini. During the development of my Graveyard project IIRC the shading and/or visibility defaults got changed 2 or 3 times. I kept changing the maps to keep up. Just unlucky timing I guess. Looking back I wish I would have just stayed with the original revision I started with.

[enderandrew]

Trooper Dan, on 19 March 2018 - 12:44 PM, said:

You can do what you want. You can play it with the current EDuke32 revision right now if you feel like it, and probably have a good experience overall. All I'm saying is that there won't be a compatibility update due to the reasons already explained. Mac and Linux users, if they have an executable, are free to try their luck, just like with any other mod. If you want to miss out on the new version because you are annoyed that there wasn't a compatibility update in the mean time, then that's your business.

Did you miss where I reported that I just tested it in the current version and it is completely unplayable because there is a giant poster graphic that stays in the center of the screen obscuring your view?

I gave you a direct report that your mod is unplayable as is on other platforms.

I don't consider that a good experience overall.

[Danukem]

enderandrew, on 19 March 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

Did you miss where I reported that I just tested it in the current version and it is completely unplayable because there is a giant poster graphic that stays in the center of the screen obscuring your view?

I gave you a direct report that your mod is unplayable as is on other platforms.

I don't consider that a good experience overall.

I actually did miss that because I'm multi-tasking here, sorry! Now let's turn down the saltiness, jeez.

Are you trying to use Polymer? If so, that would explain the poster in your face.

ifvare rendmode 4
{
 rotatesprite 160 100 42000 0 4040 0 0 0 windowx1 windowy1 windowx2 windowy2
 }

They REALLY didn't want anyone playing it with Polymer, due to various graphics and performance issues, so they added that code to constantly display the poster in the player's face if anyone tried it. If that's what's going on, don't check the Polymer box in the startup screen and the problem will go away.

[VGA]

Maybe the picture should say "Please don't use the Polymer renderer"

[Gambini]

Linux users could compile this snapshot http://dukeworld.duk.../20130331-3634/ Not sure if that works for macs too.

[Paul B]

VGA, on 19 March 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

Maybe the picture should say "Please don't use the Polymer renderer"

Actually in Gambini's readme.txt which comes with the mod says under "play information" and I quote: "This mod is intended to be played in the 8-bit classic (Software) mode The Open-GL Polymost mode is also
supported but not recommended Polymer and the HRP are definitely NOT supported and are thus disabled." However, not everyone is as thorough with documenting stuff and it's kind of trial and error with some maps. At my site I'm trying to place the recommended video render mode right at the top of the map information as i go through but it can be cumbersome to play test a single map in 3 different video modes. But I believe Gambini has done his due diligence on this one.

Which gets me thinking... It would be neat if a mapper could optionally select a map attribute or flag that would automatically load the proper render mode in Eduke when the map loads & throw an error if the video mode is not supported only if the map attribute has been predefined.

[Forge]

Paul B, on 19 March 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

Which gets me thinking... It would be neat if a mapper could optionally select a map attribute or flag that would automatically load the proper render mode in Eduke when the map loads & throw an error if the video mode is not supported only if the map attribute has been predefined in the map file.

feh!

I lurve it when people complain that a map I made doesn't work with polymer, or lags really bad with HRP.
Almost as much as I enjoy being told to fix one of my maps because it doesn't work with some Dukeplus feature.

explicit instructions in templates about preferred renderers and what may not be compatible be damned.

[Paul B]

Forge, on 19 March 2018 - 06:16 PM, said:

feh!

I lurve it when people complain that a map I made doesn't work with polymer, or lags really bad with HRP.
Almost as much as I enjoy being told to fix one of my maps because it doesn't work with some Dukeplus feature.

explicit instructions in templates about preferred renderers and what may not be compatible be damned.

Some people don't want to know about the technicalities of a game. Nor do they want to troubleshoot a game. They just want to sit down and mindlessly play without problems. While we know how to toggle these video modes the average player probably wouldn't understand as most games I know don't come with 3 different video renderers built in. So I can relate, especially since vanilla Duke never had three modes to choose from.

[Tea Monster]

If you have specified a certain version and renderer for your mod to work, if you have included a tested and known working version of the files in your release - if they deviate from that known working configuration - tough shit.

[enderandrew]

VGA, on 19 March 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

Maybe the picture should say "Please don't use the Polymer renderer"

That seems prudent and helpful.

[Forge]

Paul B, on 19 March 2018 - 06:20 PM, said:

Some people don't want to know about the technicalities of a game. Nor do they want to troubleshoot a game. They just want to sit down and mindlessly play without problems. While we know how to toggle these video modes the average player probably wouldn't understand as most games I know don't come with 3 different video renderers built in. So I can relate, especially since vanilla Duke never had three modes to choose from.

Nope.

You're taking away my joy of asking them if they read the template that came in the zip fie along with the map that I'm supposedly responsible to fix for them.
Just so they can complain that nobody reads them.
Just so I can point out that they are now posting on a forum and reading random (and mostly) unhelpful comments. Much time could have been saved, and less reading performed, if they had opened the template and looked.

It's how I keep such a green rep count.


j/k nobody plays my shitty maps