[MusicallyInspired]

Cool story, bro.

...err sis I guess.

[Hank]

Kathy, on 27 August 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

It's a full price game on a release date. It has bugs... I don't know how it could affects me.

Right now, it will not. But this 'stopper' could be applied on purpose by rules and fine laws issued by the government of the day. Am I paranoid? Sure. That is, as I wrote before, why I own everything.

[Kathy]

What stopper? In some countries some games simply aren't being sold for whatever reason there is. And there were instances when people pre-ordered the game, but several days later were refunded when the game disappeared from country's Steam store. If you're not talking about something different I don't know how it is different than it already is.

[Kathy]

Quote

Steam and similar systems give the publisher the power to enforce that license agreement we’ve all grown so used to ignoring. You didn’t buy anything; you just paid a one-time subscription fee… and legal departments always make sure that subscriptions can be revoked at the service-provider’s discretion.

[...]

Suppose Valve goes public (If a U.S. company grows big enough, staying privately owned becomes more hassle than it’s worth. That’s what happened to Google.), suddenly they’re beholden to shareholders who, I guarantee, won’t put principles above profit.

[...]

We’ve already seen how little the promise of a DRM-locked eStore is worth when certain online music stores closed up shop and, at best, left it up to you to jump through hoops to preserve your collection. They’ve already got your money. Why should they care about tarnishing a brand that’s being end-of-lifed anyway?

http://blog.ssokolow...-the-steam-era/

[Fox]

Just like Google principles prevents them from, for example, putting tons of ads on Youtube.

[Kathy]

So what's the alternative? Don't play mainstream games?

[Fox]

There is not much of an "alternative", but I would recommend not invest much money.

[Kathy]

Playing console disk-based games is a viable alternative. Copy protected, though, which means no backup.

[Soap DX]

If you buy a game you're allowed to back it up right?

So I was thinking of just buying the games I want on Steam and then just Downloading the cracked version to play them...
I guess it's not the best, but it's an idea. ... Or.... abstinence.

[DukeNukem64]

Oracle lost a trial about selling "non-physical" items. I heard steam is considering making these things possible. I don't know how people accepted that when you buy stuff from steam it isn't yours. That's bs. Maybe in USA the seller can fuck the buyer but steam is doing very illegal stuff in EU. One of the things I can mention is the refund system. All products can be returned even know its a digital version. (The court in Germany ruled in favor of the person who wanted to sell a digital copy as it is the "same" as a psychical copy, whatever the gaming industry wants to claim).
They so not accept refunds. Illegal. If you somehow manage a refund they add it back to you steam wallet. Again, illegal. Most of the steam agreement is against EU law, so basically steam has a less chance to fuck with us in EU than people from USA. Anyway, I like steam as I think it's very smart to have all your games in 1 spot. Lets see what happens in near future.

[Lunick]

If you contact Steam Support with the correct information about why you want a refund, then you are more likely to actually get it instead of saying "I WANT A REFUND!!11!!!". People seem to think there is this "One time refund" policy but that's just not true as I have gotten refunds for errors and a certain game that I wasn't pleased about.

And especially in the EU if you quote the correct law then they are also more likely to respond faster with the refund

[Fox]

DukeNukem64, on 10 September 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

Oracle lost a trial about selling "non-physical" items. I heard steam is considering making these things possible. I don't know how people accepted that when you buy stuff from steam it isn't yours. That's bs. Maybe in USA the seller can fuck the buyer but steam is doing very illegal stuff in EU. One of the things I can mention is the refund system. All products can be returned even know its a digital version. (The court in Germany ruled in favor of the person who wanted to sell a digital copy as it is the "same" as a psychical copy, whatever the gaming industry wants to claim).
They so not accept refunds. Illegal. If you somehow manage a refund they add it back to you steam wallet. Again, illegal. Most of the steam agreement is against EU law, so basically steam has a less chance to fuck with us in EU than people from USA. Anyway, I like steam as I think it's very smart to have all your games in 1 spot. Lets see what happens in near future.

That's an issue with software and digital products, there is little to no legislation about the content.

For example, if you to a restaurant, and they charge you for the use of the fork or the chairs, chances are that on the way out you will see manager of establishment being escorted by authorities. But in the case of a game, it's rather common for you to buy it, and purchase a DLC that does nothing but unlocking content that you already downloaded with the base game. They are similar situations, since you are paying twice for the same thing, the difference is that there is no laws of sort regarding digital products.

Of course, in Steam case it's on a different level, and they are really pushing the line. They are basically telling the EU consumers that they can't refund, when they actually can.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

I've read from end-to-end of this thread and none of the bellyaching has convinced me to not use Steam.

[Mikko]

DukeNukem64, on 10 September 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

Oracle lost a trial about selling "non-physical" items. I heard steam is considering making these things possible. I don't know how people accepted that when you buy stuff from steam it isn't yours. That's bs. Maybe in USA the seller can fuck the buyer but steam is doing very illegal stuff in EU. One of the things I can mention is the refund system. All products can be returned even know its a digital version. (The court in Germany ruled in favor of the person who wanted to sell a digital copy as it is the "same" as a psychical copy, whatever the gaming industry wants to claim).
They so not accept refunds. Illegal. If you somehow manage a refund they add it back to you steam wallet. Again, illegal. Most of the steam agreement is against EU law, so basically steam has a less chance to fuck with us in EU than people from USA. Anyway, I like steam as I think it's very smart to have all your games in 1 spot. Lets see what happens in near future.

Laws that compel businesses to accept returns in all cases are wrong, not ideal. Businesses should set their own practices. If you don't like a store's policy, don't shop there.

[Mikko]

Fox, on 10 September 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

For example, if you to a restaurant, and they charge you for the use of the fork or the chairs, chances are that on the way out you will see manager of establishment being escorted by authorities. But in the case of a game, it's rather common for you to buy it, and purchase a DLC that does nothing but unlocking content that you already downloaded with the base game. They are similar situations, since you are paying twice for the same thing, the difference is that there is no laws of sort regarding digital products.

I'm not sure I understand. If you didn't pay for the DLC in the first place, then how could it be wrong for them to charge for the DLC if you at some point do wish to purchase it? To use your restaurant example, that's like demanding a free dessert even though it wasn't a part of the order.

[Fox]

Mikko_Sandt, on 10 September 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Laws that compel businesses to accept returns in all cases are wrong, not ideal. Businesses should set their own practices. If you don't like a store's policy, don't shop there.

They are still breaking the law, regardless of what your personal toughts regarding free market are. How can you trust a company will follow any policy then?

[MusicallyInspired]

That must be why everything is so expensive on Steam in EU lol.

[Fox]

No, prices are based on how much people are willing to pay.

[Kathy]

Comrade Major, on 10 September 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

I've read from end-to-end of this thread and none of the bellyaching has convinced me to not use Steam.

But aren't you at least concerned?

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Kathy, on 10 September 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

But aren't you at least concerned?

No.

[MusicallyInspired]

Neither am I, incidentally.

[TerminX]

I'm not concerned either. It's 2013, big corporations pretty much control everything and we're WAY too far down the rabbit hole to do anything about it now. I don't see it changing unless society collapses as a whole, so there's not much point in wasting years of your youth going out of your way to not enjoy modern gaming based on principle.

[MusicallyInspired]

Well, I think enjoying modern gaming is inherently flawed for completely different reasons. Mostly because most games are not enjoyable.

[Kathy]

TX said:

I'm not concerned either. It's 2013, big corporations pretty much control everything and we're WAY too far down the rabbit hole to do anything about it now. I don't see it changing unless society collapses as a whole, so there's not much point in wasting years of your youth going out of your way to not enjoy modern gaming based on principle.

I'm pretty sure you just said you were concerned, but obviously weren't* doing anything about it.

* - English language question. "weren't" or "aren't"? I downgraded the sentence to past simple with "said", but then I was talking about your currect situation of not doing anything.

[DukeNukem64]

I don't really see your point. Steam should follow the law in the areas and also: their policy is NO REFUND. It says so in the agreement. This is illegal.

[Mikko]

Fox, on 10 September 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

They are still breaking the law, regardless of what your personal toughts regarding free market are. How can you trust a company will follow any policy then?

I don't really care. Silly laws should be broken. The law essentially allows people to use stores that sell movies and games as free rental services: you can easily watch any movie or finish a game in seven days. I'm not sure if the lawmakers had digital entertainment in mind when writing the law.

[Fox]

Mikko_Sandt, on 10 September 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Silly laws should be broken.

Like allowing you to live?

P.S. this is more of a logical point than actually being rude.

[DukeNukem64]

Well, i am pretty sure if Steam demanded some rules such as: If you played more than 5 hours you are NOT allowed to return this game. (no game is beatable within 5 hours are they?)
Anyway, you sure seem American while i have no idea where you are from. I love that EU citizens are protected as we are. It sucks to find out you can't run a game for one or another reason.

[Mikko]

Fox, on 10 September 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Like allowing you to live?

P.S. this is more of a logical point than actually being rude.

Would you make an argument like that to a Chinese dissident who believes laws that prohibit free speech should be broken?

Edit:

DukeNukem64, on 10 September 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

I love that EU citizens are protected as we are.

Well I value individual freedom over everything else so I disagree.

[DukeNukem64]

Oh. Don't get me started about ''freedom'' in USA. I really don't wanna go there.