[Betelgeuse]

I've used steam for years and have never really even worried about DRM. Steam is kind to their user base, I don't think they intend to screw with the consumer.

Although the message you originally posted from the steam tech. is bothersome.

Pending Consumer: "sooo, i don't agree.. is that cool brah?"
Steam tech: " sure thing sir, we'll gladly pack your bags and send you on your merry way, oh and btw, disagreeing will result in permanent deletion of all your games and your account with no refunds and no way to get any of it back... still want to leave brah? "

[Kristian Joensen]

Cathy, on 23 February 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

What makes you think any of those games have hardware auth?

Or do you mean that they're still needed to be installed on OS and you couldn't just copy folder from on PC to another? I copied 4 games that way and I believe they weren't installed in that sense. But some other games indeed could be installed that way and you'd need an installer to properly play them on another OS.

All I am saying is that testing method can't rule out hardware auth. Trying on multiple machines makes it less likely they have hardware auth and likewise using software for inspecting for DRM. Depending on how high the auth limits and how reliable and comprehensive that software is of course. It is all a matter of degree. If you try on only one system that is not all that reliable, but if you manage to install and run a game on 10 systems(in particular if you manage to run them at the same time) AND DRM detection software doesn't find anything AND the developer and/or publisher says it is DRM free then you can be virtually 100% certain. There are all kinds of degrees and combos in between those two. It all depends on how certain you want to be and how much you care about DRM free gaming. You would need to be pretty paranoid to demand the 2nd extreme I mentioned. But merely trying the method mentioned in that gog.com thread doesn't really guarantee much of anything other than the game not requiring Steam running and not having constant online DRM. It doesn't help determine if there is hardware authentication or not or what authentication limits may be in place.

[Kathy]

Could you give an example of hardware authentication that isn't online and not based around cd/dvd(i.e. having dvd in the tray)?

[Kathy]

NZRage, on 30 March 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

But all games coming out today have a form of "DRM" as you put it.

Actually many games haven't. Although, latest AAA games mostly have DRM of course.

I don't like the requirement to run games with a 3rd party authentication client. Maybe I could be okay with Valve's games running via Valve's client, but not with the games from another developer/publisher.

[Person of Color]

Cathy, on 24 February 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

Could you give an example of hardware authentication that isn't online and not based around cd/dvd(i.e. having dvd in the tray)?

Define what you mean.

If you're talking cartridges, Nintendo's 10NES and Sega's TMSS immediately spring to mind.

[Bloodshot]

Cathy, on 30 March 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

Maybe I could be okay with Valve's games running via Valve's client, but not with the games from another developer/publisher.

Gmod is based on valve games, so technically doesn't it make sense to use steam for that?

[Kathy]

(420){AB}XxXKlannyDannyXxX, on 30 March 2013 - 10:44 PM, said:

Define what you mean.

I don't know what Kristian meant. That's why I was asking him.

Quote

If you're talking cartridges, Nintendo's 10NES and Sega's TMSS immediately spring to mind.

I don't think that applies. Especially if we're talking about PC.

Bloodshot, on 30 March 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

Gmod is based on valve games, so technically doesn't it make sense to use steam for that?

Maybe it does.

[The Commander]

I have been using Steam for 8 years and have never had a issue with it.
Like I said in my other thread, you are an idiot if you don't use it.

[Player Lin]

Cathy, on 30 March 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

Maybe it does.

Garry mod IS a HL2/Source engine mod since beginning and before it needed money to get its latest version. And you needed Steam/HL2(maybe SDK too) for use it at all. Maybe it's not Valve's game, but you it's still needed Source engine and Steam Client to use it, unless you do piracy with cracked standalone edition or Steam Client.

[Kathy]

Player Lin, on 31 March 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

Garry mod IS a HL2/Source engine mod since beginning and before it needed money to get its latest version. And you needed Steam/HL2(maybe SDK too) for use it at all. Maybe it's not Valve's game, but you it's still needed Source engine and Steam Client to use it, unless you do piracy with cracked standalone edition or Steam Client.

You probably misunderstood me. I said that it does make sense to use it with Steam since it only applies to Valve's games.

[Player Lin]

Cathy, on 31 March 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

You probably misunderstood me.

Guess I misunderstood someone's question and your reply on that, sorry.

[The Commander]

Would you rather use Origin or Steam Cathy.
And you are still an idiot because you don't use Steam.
The only people that "hate" Steam are most likely the ones that downloaded some "hax" then tried to use it in games like CS:S or some COD game then wonder why they have been VAC banned and try to protest it was their brother or that they didn't hack in the first place.

I can only recall of one instance were VAC failed in some COD (I think) and banned legitimate players but the issue was quickly identified and reversed.

This is also another reason why I like Steam is because of VAC, I can't stand games that do not use it and punk buster gives me tons of problems.

[Sangman]

NZRage, on 31 March 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

And you are still an idiot because you don't use Steam.

Nonsense. I like Steam and I use it all the time but it's not without issues and IMO there is some valid criticism out there. I can understand why some people would prefer alternatives. Labelling everyone who doesn't use Steam as an idiot is pretty short-sighted.

[The Commander]

No it's not, why would you not want to use it?
Cheap ass games, easy friends list, easy mod add on with certain games (steam workshop)

As long as they don't start adding "share/like" shit on it I will have no complaints with it.

[Kathy]

NZRage, on 31 March 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Would you rather use Origin or Steam Cathy.

No, I prefer UPlay.

Can't you understand that I'm not against Steam itself, but the DRM side of it? I've said it in this thread that Steam is a fantastic service and it's popularity is well earned.

I think I've explained enough in this thread my feelings towards this issue for me. I'm not telling you to abandon this service, but outline reasons to do so. And I think they are justified if you feel strongly about them.

Quote

And you are still an idiot because you don't use Steam.

Your argument certainly needs some polishing.

[The Commander]

I sense your sarcasm with UPlay because even I do not like that, they put that on top of certain Steam games which is just not needed IMO.

How is Steam being a form of DRM any different than needing a CD key?
Hell, most of the games once installed can be ran from their folder in Steam without even needing Steam open.

[Carl Winslow]

Only the purest form of whiney babbies believes that full ownership exists.

You know who actually owns everything of yours?
The government!
You fuck up on your taxes, don't pay bills/loans, or do anything to catch the ire of the IRS/your country's tax system and you'll find out soon enough that you don't actually own shit.

To believe that you absolutely need full ownership of a game is absurd. the least invasive form of DRM pretty much is steam right now, and old games had just as many vile ways to break a game as we do now. EVER HAD TO HAVE THE MANUAL TO A GAME TO ACTUALLY PLAY IT?

[The Commander]

Colon Semicolon, on 31 March 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

EVER HAD TO HAVE THE MANUAL TO A GAME TO ACTUALLY PLAY IT?

Please enter the 5th word on the 12 line on page 24 to proceed, oh they were the days.

[Kathy]

NZRage, on 31 March 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

How is Steam being a form of DRM any different than needing a CD key?

That depends on the method. And what was your point here anyway? Maybe Steam is better than Starforce or whatwasitsname, but that doesn't make it DRM-free.

Quote

Hell, most of the games once installed can be ran from their folder in Steam without even needing Steam open.

Why don't you read the topic first? I mentioned it in one of the posts.

I "attacked" Steam because it is the most popular. I know it's a good service, dammit.

Colon Semicolon, on 31 March 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

To believe that you absolutely need full ownership of a game is absurd.

What are you talking about?

[The Commander]

Then maybe we should be attacking EA instead with there form of DRM which requires you to be online all the time to play. (SimCity)

[Kathy]

Because this is about Steam. If there are worse DRM methods that companies use it doesn't mean Steam is without its faults.

Btw, why don't you check your first 10 games on steam if they require client to be run? Try launching them from the folder. I have like 5% of the games that could be run from a folder without Steam.

[Person of Color]

I don't see how Steam's DRM is an issue. I have a fiber optic Internet connection.

SimCity's is overly aggressive.

[Hank]

NZRage, on 31 March 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Would you rather use Origin or Steam Cathy.
And you are still an idiot because you don't use Steam.
The only people that "hate" Steam are most likely the ones that downloaded some "hax" then tried to use it in games like CS:S or some COD game then wonder why they have been VAC banned and try to protest it was their brother or that they didn't hack in the first place.

I can only recall of one instance were VAC failed in some COD (I think) and banned legitimate players but the issue was quickly identified and reversed.

This is also another reason why I like Steam is because of VAC, I can't stand games that do not use it and punk buster gives me tons of problems.

When I buy a game, I like to play it off-line. Some games need to be accessed via Steam server first.
The US is very much over the top with protectionism, and Steam followed suit, with their new polices. That I do hate because it drastically reduces the rights of the consumer, me for one. So it's not Steam I am against but the US-Super-Protectionism-Era. That I hate and anyone complying with it, which happens to be Steam.

[Kathy]

486DX2, on 31 March 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

I don't see how Steam's DRM is an issue. I have a fiber optic Internet connection.

Your internet connection have nothing to do with it. Read my first post and its links.

Quote

Steam isn’t a publisher, it’s a shop. This is the equivalent of being suspected of shoplifting from a GAME/GameStop, and having an employee come to your house and remove your entire gaming collection from your shelves. Individual publishers of the purchased games aren’t consulted for a Steam ban. This is Valve overriding all those individual licenses with their own, and removing access to your purchased goods. And, despite there being no legal position yet known, that doesn’t seem right at all.

http://www.rockpaper...ur-steam-games/

[Fox]

Quote

The idea that just the suspicion that extensive gifting is enough to have you account banned without explanation, isn’t one that sits comfortably. (...) When Steam’s meagre customer support refuses to respond, there’s no phone number to call (the one that exists redirects you back to email), no manager you can reach. You’re just shut out, seemingly unless you can cause enough fuss on the internet.

Conclusion: you shouldn't spend much money on Steam.

This also shows why I don't believe cloud computing will ever replace home computers.

[Bloodshot]

The only time we were truly free of DRM was throughout most of the 90s.

Even requiring a CD in the drive in the 90s was an early form of DRM back then too, but once CD keys came around developers could just as easily ban your key and you wouldn't be able to play the game online, some games, like Doom 3, having an invalid key wouldn't even let you get past the main menu.

That rarely happens, but it was perfectly possible. A friend and I were banned from Battlefield 2 because punkbuster is shit, and we emailed them and they gave no explanation and refused to unban us so we were forced to by a second copy just to be able to play. Granted, it was cheap, but it still wasn't right.

It's the same deal with steam, just because it happens to a few people doesn't mean it will happen to you, and there have been tons of games released where the same exact thing could happen, just in steam's case the only difference is that it can be across your whole account (unless you deliberately use one account for each game)

[Kathy]

Bloodshot, on 31 March 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Even requiring a CD in the drive in the 90s was an early form of DRM back then too,

That depends on a method used. If the game just checks if CD/DVD is in the tray without installing some intrusive software then I'm okay with that. Just like on consoles, I guess. (hell, you will be able to play Diablo 3 offline on PS3)

[Fox]

Bloodshot, on 31 March 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

It's the same deal with steam, just because it happens to a few people doesn't mean it will happen to you

I don't think there is any statistics about it.

Bloodshot, on 31 March 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

unless you deliberately use one account for each game

Which actually seems like a good idea.

[Kathy]

Fox, on 31 March 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

Which actually seems like a good idea.

But difficult to implement with constant user switching. Although... another problem I thought would be with having one debit/credit card on multiple accounts, but Steam gifting nullifies that problem. Interesting...

Making account for every game seems like a big inconvenience, but having several accounts for different group of games(different publisher for example) is less chore.

[Sangman]

NZRage, on 31 March 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

No it's not, why would you not want to use it?

Well one reason for example for most people who don't it's ownership that's a problem. Valve has claimed that if Steam were to ever go down they would release patches so your games could be played without Steam, but they have no legal obligation at all to do so. So if they don't your entire Steam account becomes useless.