[SPYmaps]

Already in 2010 i thought about to make my first own indie fps game after 10 years of SP fpsmodding.
But it took more time then i thought to complete my latest (HL2 ep2) sp-mod, so i haven't been around
here anymore as much as i would have liked. But now that the mod is almost finished i finally can start
looking in to the indie development.

It will still take me 2 months or so to release my latest sp-mod, but i have quit a few questions that i really
would like to have answer to.

My biggest question for now is; what does come with the engine?
i know that with a lot of other engine you have to make for instance all the coding and scripting for the
animations (ai and weapons for instance), is this also the case with Eduke32.
or, simply said, do i just have to put in my drawings from all different parts of a animations?
i mean, take for instance a weapon, do i just need to make the different images of a weapon shooting,
or do i need to make the code also to get this to work.

and, are there good tutorials around about the coding anc scripting with Eduke32.
(know that i am a mapper and a noob qua cooing etc).

this is serious, i really will start as i am done with the last mod and i want to collect as much info now
so i can start as soon as i am ready for it.

(should you be interested in my latest sp-mod then please check this link;)
http://www.moddb.com...e-3-the-closure

leon

[TerminX]

All the code to run a game that acts 100% like Duke Nukem 3D is included or otherwise free to use. You'll need to supply your own sounds, art, and everything else to make something standalone though.

[MetHy]

This just makes me think of something semi-related :

Let's say someone makes an indie game using the build engine through eduke32 and its features and would like to commercialize it.

First, would it be legally possible ?

and if so, how ? Who owns the right to the build engine, Ken Silverman ? Would there need to be some kind of deal done with him and everybody involved in the making of eduke32 and the features the said game use (like if the game using polymer lights etc) ?

[Mikko]

As far as I know, it's not possible to commercialize anything like that because it'd violate the terms under which the source code was released.

[TerminX]

The only way to commercialize a project using EDuke32 would be to come to a licensing agreement with myself, Plagman, Helixhorned, Ken, JonoF and anyone else who contributed to the non-GPL portions of the EDuke32 source code. A much more likely alternative is to just take donations and only offer extra content, patches and support to donors so as to not run afoul of the commercial exploitation clause in the BUILD license.

[SPYmaps]

thank you all so much for your comment and or answer, they are very helpful!
sorry that i didn't reply any sooner but last few days i was on a much needed 3 days holiday, lol.

that said, the answer of Terminx makes me glad, i already hoped it would be like that;
"All the code to run a game that acts 100% like Duke Nukem 3D is included or otherwise free to use."
that i need to supply my own sounds, art, and everything else to make something standalone is exactly what i want, i really want to make it 100% new.

But then about the rights of using this engine, i thought (but have to admit, i haven't really looked deeper in to this) that the Building engine was completely free to use for indie developers.
I am aware of that the community have made lots and lots of new improvements over the years, that make a game look much better on the building engine.
Ofcourse would i like my indie game looks as good as possible, but i wouldn't mind when i can't use all the new added 'stuff '.
This game will not be about graphics, most important is game play and fun, and then graphics.

I have been thinking about not asking money for the game, but just see what people will donate after they have played it.
Or maybe a free download of the first 5 levels and then the rest of the game after a donation (although this probebly asks for the same rights as when i would sell the game.

I understand that this all asks for quit some time and effort to look in to from my part, and that using a UDK, Cryengine3 or other similar engine would be more clear about these things.
Still my hart really goes out to this building engine, for severel reasons. it was the first engine (game Duke Nukem 3D) in 2000 i believe it was, that i used intensively for modding and mapping.
It is very user friendly and even the most low end pc will be able to play the indie game very well, probebly also for tablet and phone, although is maybe for later concern.
My main reason is that i can make this game all by myself, i don't need modelers, riggers, animators, etc.
I can draw quit nicely, even when say so myself, so the sky is the limit is seems.

thank you all for your input, and please do tell me more.
This is a very serious project to me, and i am thinking about this for at least 2 years now.
And the time really has come to finally start this first indie game of mine, with the Building engine, or the eduke32.
Its now just a matter, of how i need to set it up qua rights etc, because i want to do this legit.

(my English may be wrong or strange sometimes, sorry for that, i am Dutch).

leon

[The Commander]

In short; you are free to make a stand alone game, you just cant charge money for it, asking for donations is fine.

[SPYmaps]

i think that is indeed the case Cody, i have mailed Ken Silverman to ask him about the building engine
and the rights for that. i know the source code for that out for free for quit some time, but i want to make
sure that that also is for indie development, and not only TC .

when i have a answer from him i will let it know here,
would be great to use Eduke32 for a indie game, but the building engine is also great.

leon

[Jimmy]

There really isn't much of a line between 'indie development' and 'total conversion.'

[Mblackwell]

Well, if you read BUILDLIC.TXT it will tell you that you can freely use the BUILD engine as long as you aren't selling a commercial product. Hence why we said only donations are allowed.

[SPYmaps]

I have changed a mail or two with Ken Silverman and he said the same. It free to use as long as no money is asked for the game.
I have to think hard about this, what to do next.

I don't have to get rich from a indie game, but making some money for all the time and effort would be nice.
Even more so because i already have been working on a lot of (free) sp-mods over the last 12 years.

guess i have to sleep on this, whatever i decide, i will come back here ofcourse to tell you, should you be interested.

thank you for all your input and 2 cents,

Leon

[OpenMaw]

SPYmaps, on 26 August 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

I have changed a mail or two with Ken Silverman and he said the same. It free to use as long as no money is asked for the game.
I have to think hard about this, what to do next.

I don't have to get rich from a indie game, but making some money for all the time and effort would be nice.
Even more so because i already have been working on a lot of (free) sp-mods over the last 12 years.

guess i have to sleep on this, whatever i decide, i will come back here ofcourse to tell you, should you be interested.

thank you for all your input and 2 cents,

Leon

I think you should probably do a little more than sleep on it. You're talking about the fundamental underline of your entire project. If you want to make money, you have to go elsewhere. If you want to make something that people can enjoy with donations STRICTLY to support the project, then Eduke32 is for you.

If not, there's always the QUAKE engine, or the Unreal SDK which allow you to do this kind of thing.

[SPYmaps]

Thanks Commando, and you are right, the UDK and Quake Engine, or the Cryengine3 are great engines, especially the last one has my interest.
Problem is that for games on those engines you need modelers, animators, riggers, etc. And that is why i love the Build engine, because for that
i don't need all that, i can simply draw it all. But, i have decided that i will not choose for the Eduke32, and also will i not work on donation bases.
I am in contact now with Ken and we are looking in to what we could do next, i can't talk about that yet. But it does look very promising so far,...

Leon

[Reaper_Man]

You might want to look into Unity or XNA. Both of those engines are very easy to get into, and it's a lot easier to make 2D art based games than in something like UDK.

But, really, the bottom line is that this isn't 1996 and like it or not, a game with ancient looking graphics isn't going to stack up to any of the "modern" engines. Go to 3dbuzz.com and watch their learning series on Blender, it's a very easy program to get into. You just have to be patient.

[OpenMaw]

Reaper_Man, on 10 September 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

You might want to look into Unity or XNA. Both of those engines are very easy to get into, and it's a lot easier to make 2D art based games than in something like UDK.

But, really, the bottom line is that this isn't 1996 and like it or not, a game with ancient looking graphics isn't going to stack up to any of the "modern" engines. Go to 3dbuzz.com and watch their learning series on Blender, it's a very easy program to get into. You just have to be patient.

Hah.. No. It really isn't. As far as ALL of the modeling programs i've dabbled with, Blender is STEEP to get into. It's menus are absolutely unrelentingly dubious.

[Reaper_Man]

Really? I'm pretty much a derp when it comes to modeling, I understand the concepts but it's never really been my forte. But the 3dbuzz videos really go through baby step by baby step and it got me at least functional at it. Sure the UI is clunky but I've never used a modeling program that wasn't at least somewhat dense.

It also doesn't hurt that it's free.

[Mblackwell]

Blender really is awful as far as user-friendliness. It's powerful as all hell but not easy to learn (especially if you've used other professional tools and have that as your frame of reference).

[OpenMaw]

Mblackwell, on 10 September 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Blender really is awful as far as user-friendliness. It's powerful as all hell but not easy to learn (especially if you've used other professional tools and have that as your frame of reference).

Yeah, that's really what it comes down to. I'm used to programs like QME, Milkshape, Anim8or, and to a limited stretch, 3DS Max.

[SPYmaps]

Thank you for your comments, as i said of the start of this topic of mine do i first need to finish my last (HL2 ep2) sp-mod
before i really can start with my indie development. So i still haven't decided on what engine i will use.

It is true that it is indeed not 1996 anymore, and that the Build engine doesn't give graphics as all modern engines these days.
Still, i really do feel the need to still choose for this engine and the main reason for that is that i don't need to make models for
npc's, or better said the animations. Because learning how to make, and then make npc's, that is a huge task but i can do that.
But to make good looking animations for them is something else, it would mean that i have to look for great skilled team members,
or learn to do it myself, and then do it. What means that i would at least need 2 to 3 years extra for this indie game, and that is
simply to much.

Would there be another engine and way then for sure i would choose that one, because the Build engine has also a lot of it's own
problems. And for at least 2 years i have been looking in to about every engine that there is. But it seems that only the Build
engine can give me what i need. And that is the possibility to make a good looking and fun playing fps.

thank you all for your input, i appreciate it very much,

Leon

[Reaper_Man]

If you aren't dead-set on monetization and you refuse to look into other engines, then yeah Eduke32 is great. If monetization is a major priority then you need to either A.) do what I was trying to do, not take "you can't commercialize" for an answer and figure out who gets royalties - this is a huge pain in the ass btw, there's a reason I stopped trying - or B.) look into another engine. There's really not a lot of other options here. Like I said, Unity3D or XNA would be great, especially if you are unwilling to outsource graphics to someone with 3D talent or unwilling to learn yourself. There's plenty of 2D games in Unity and XNA.

[SPYmaps]

Please don't get me wrong Reaper_Man, i am not unwilling to look in to other engines, not at all. In fact, i have been doing so for at least 1,5 years.

Like you said yourself, " it's a huge pain in the ass " to find out who all have rights in the Eduke32. And it will take probably take quit a lot of money to
pay all these people, and i don't think that i will make that much money out of my first indie game, if those people are willing to lend me there work that is.

My main problem is, i am a mapper that can draw very well, that is it. I don't know anything about coding and scripting, modeling, rigging and animating.
And do learn all these things, so well that i could use them in a game is not very realistic. Or i should take out 5 years or so for this game, what ofcourse
is also not very realistic. Ofcourse could i look for other team members, people who have these skills (and then i especially mean the modelers, riggers and
animators). But my years or experience tells me that it is very hard to find very qualified people, that are willing to work on a % base, and that will stay
with the project. A lot of people tell you they will help out, just to never hear of them again, or to see them leave after a few weeks or months.

With this all in mind it is best to see if i can make a fps by myself, with some help on coding. With this all in mind the Build engine can provide that, and
even the Unity3D will probably not be a good engine then, with that all in mind. I don't have anything against this engine because it belongs to the top
engines and it is used already for many other great indie games.

Hope i did clear thinsg up, and thanks for your input,
Leon

[Mblackwell]

Fairly certain Unity allows you to do everything sprite-based. But I can't say I've researched the engine.

[Reaper_Man]

Yeah, Unity is more than capable of being "sprite based". There's some great stuff in the asset store to help you jump start rather than writing all of the sprite code yourself. I haven't used much of it myself, personally I think 3D models are cool because it's 2012 I guess, but I know the sprite stuff is there and I've seen some really great games made with it.

As far as the rest... Yeah, it sucks. Find someone you work well with, or learn everything yourself. Welcome to the lives of every modder and independent game developer.

[Tea Monster]

Reaper_Man, on 12 September 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

3D models are cool because it's 2012 I guess,

It's not 2012 around here. No sir.

[SPYmaps]

i have to say, although i have looked in to the Unity3D engine and games that are made with it, that here's some great stuff in the asset store to help you jump start rather than writing all of the sprite code myself
is new to me. So this does sound very interesting and is certainly worth to look in to much more. thanks for that info.

should Unity3D give me the option to make a great sprite based fps, then that would mean i won't need to work with the Build anymore.

thanks, have some looking up to do it seems,

leon

[Zagro]

You may want to look at Cube 2, it has also an in game editor:
http://sauerbraten.org/

[thatguy]

SPYmaps, on 13 September 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

i have to say, although i have looked in to the Unity3D engine and games that are made with it, that here's some great stuff in the asset store to help you jump start rather than writing all of the sprite code myself
is new to me. So this does sound very interesting and is certainly worth to look in to much more. thanks for that info.

should Unity3D give me the option to make a great sprite based fps, then that would mean i won't need to work with the Build anymore.

thanks, have some looking up to do it seems,

leon

Easy to do. If Unity is capable of making 2d games, it surely is capable of doing 2.5d.

[SPYmaps]

Thanks Zagro and Newsom for commenting.
I am familiar with the Sauerbraten engine for quit some time now although i never have worked with it.
It seems a pretty decent engine that is user friendly to indie devs, but it would give me the same problems as
any other engine, like the Unity and others, that i would need to learn coding, modeling, animating, etc before
i could start with the indie game. ANd that is simply not realistic. Just because of this i choose for the Build engine.
I have hasitated for quit some time, and specially the last month or so i started to hesitate again. But, the Build
engine seems to give me exactly that what i need, (what i have described earlier above).

Ofcourse is the Build not perfect, and, old. But, i really still think that i could deliver a nice and success full fps
indie with it.

I still am working like crazy daily to finish my 5th and latest Hl2 eps sp-mod, in one way i am glad i haven't finished
it yet so i don't have to start with the indie, lol. On the other hand can't i wait till i am done with the mod.

(should you be interested in my sp-mods then please look here for the mod i am working on)
http://www.moddb.com...e-3-the-closure

website with all my other sp mods of other games;
http://www.leon.triplebit.nl/

Leon

[Mikko]

I played Coastline a long time ago. That city map pack was cool too. Gave Strider Mountain a try a year or so ago but had to quit because of gameplay issues (Coastline had these too actually but it had a nice sense of progression).

[SPYmaps]

thanks Mikko_Sandt for the nice compliment, a shame that you couldn't finish Strider Mountain.
Some people have some gameplay issues with it after that one Valve update was released, like with so many other mods from other people.
Hopefully you have the time and want to put in the effort in my latest mod that i hopefully will release before the end of this year. It is the best
project i ever made i think, i have put in more effort and time in it, and it has the same size as my other mods.

thanks,
Leon