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Doom 3: BFG Edition  "PC, 360, and PS3."

User is offline   Kathy 

#61

View Postnecroslut, on 24 September 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

Well, Doom was one of the main influences on Half-Life, so...

In what way?
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User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#62

View PostBurnett, on 24 September 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

In what way?


Big guns?
Aliens?
A government/military-run science facility?

I don't know, I always thought it was kind of a foregone conclusion.
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User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#63

View PostAchenar, on 24 September 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

Big guns?
Aliens?
A government/military-run science facility?


Those are all pretty generic concepts though. Take the Mission Improbable level from Duke 3D and I'm pretty sure you'll find Aliens, big guns and a government/military run science facility there. Not to mention the vent crawling and crushers and things which became a significant part of Half Life. Yes I'm aware that Duke 3D was partly inspired by Doom as well, but don't forget HL also has vent crawling and other things that were introduced to gamers in Duke 3D. Back to my original point all these concepts had already existed anyway.

Edit: Fuck got my threads mixed up. Never mind then.

This post has been edited by Micky C: 24 September 2012 - 06:52 AM

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User is offline   Kathy 

#64

Then you can say that every FPS game after Doom was influenced by it. But that's not really tells anything about the game. If anything, I can't say that HL is in any way similar to Doom.
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User is offline   Sangman 

#65

Doom = in a research installation a portal is somehow opened, leading demons to swarm said installation. Personnel is zombified and the player ends up fighting demons native from Hell in the base as well. Military is sent in to clean up the situation but is annihilated. The player eventually travels to the demon world of Hell.

Half Life = in a research installation a portal is somehow opened, leading aliens to swarm said isntallation. Personnel is zombified and the player ends up fighting aliens native from Xen in the base as well. Military is sent in to clean up the situation but has to retreat. The player eventually travels to the alien world of Xen.

But yeah you're right, Half Life's story unfolds during the game and not in text screens, so this definitely means that Doom couldn't possibly have been a large inspiration for Half Life's story. :)
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User is offline   Tetsuo 

#66

Well, even if they might have been inspired by the "plot" of Doom in Half-Life doesn't mean that id software couldn't have taken stuff back from Half-Life when making Doom 3 such as the health stations and sections similar to "on a rail". That last one is the most obvious one.

In Doom 1 which is the Doom game in question it's sort of like most of the story was in the instruction manual and not really in the game at all. At no point do they ever show or talk about opening a portal or a research installation or anything like that in the first episode of Doom.

This post has been edited by Tetsuo: 24 September 2012 - 10:02 AM

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User is offline   Sangman 

#67

Quote

At no point do they ever show or talk about opening a portal or a research installation or anything like that in the first episode of Doom.


There's not much of the story in the game apart from text screens after end bosses but there žs a backstory to the game and like you said it's in the manual. The "only" (still a milestone of course but just for the sake of argument) thing HL did was bring the story exposition from the manual and titlescreens to the gameworld.

Quote

Well, even if they might have been inspired by the "plot" of Doom in Half-Life doesn't mean that id software couldn't have taken stuff back from Half-Life when making Doom 3 such as the health stations and sections similar to "on a rail". That last one is the most obvious one.


Oh absolutely, no argument there. I thought Doom 3's intro felt very Half-Life-ish back when I first played it (almost 10 years ago now god damn)
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User is online   Commando Nukem 

  • Judge Mental

#68

View Postnecroslut, on 24 September 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

Doom 1 wasn't really that much about big battles, there was plenty of one-on-one or one-on-three. And is really objectives that different from keycards? I always thought the keycard/objectives debate was kind of stupid, from both sides.


I disagree with that oh-so much. Yeah, if you're playing on the lower difficulties KDITD rarely throws more than five guys at you, but if you crank it up, within the first four levels you can kill nearly 300 dudes, exactly 324 enemies. Both E1M3 and E1M4 basically start with you opening a door that leads into a room with about eight guys coming around corners to kill you. (E1M3 actually throws a bit more at you right off the bat, and then has several rooms just filled with enemies.).

Whereas Doom3 barely reaches 200 dudes together by the time you hit the end of Alpha Labs. This is partially due to the fact that Doom 3 simply couldn't do too many enemies on the screen at release because computer hardware just wasn't there yet with most consumers.


It wasn't a debate. I was stating that there's a difference there. I have no problem with either form of of puzzle. Once again, the difference was that Doom was about navigating a maze to find the keys, secrets, and additional weapons. Doom 3 was about completing the objective to progress further. Usually accompanied by a short cinematic, introduction to a new enemy, etc.. It is different simply via the way it's executed.

View Postnecroslut, on 24 September 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

Well, Doom was one of the main influences on Half-Life, so...


The part that Valve drew their direct influence from was the way Doom tried to immerse you in the environments with a rich world, and taking from things like "scientists open a portal to another dimension" and "You're the only guy who could stop it." In both instances they said things like "But instead of demons, we'll make extra-dimensional aliens." and "Instead of playing your typical beefy action hero type, you'll be a nerd with a PHD in theoretical physics"


Since someone seems to think i've got it wrong, here's some proof from Wikipedia which is getting it's information from various interviews (One with Marc Laidlaw and Gabe Newell way back in the day which I remember reading at the time.)

Quote


Setting
Most of the game is set in a remote desert area of New Mexico in the Black Mesa Research Facility, a fictional complex that bears many similarities to both the Los Alamos National Laboratory and Area 51, at some point between the years 2000 and 2009. The game's protagonist is the theoretical physicist Gordon Freeman, an MIT graduate. Freeman becomes one of the survivors of an experiment at Black Mesa that goes horribly wrong, when an unexpected "resonance cascade"—a fictitious phenomenon —rips dimensional seams, devastating the facility. Aliens from another dimension known as Xen subsequently enter the facility through these dimensional seams (an event known as the "Black Mesa incident").[11]

As Freeman tries to make his way out of the ruined facility, he soon discovers that he is caught between two sides: the hostile aliens and the Hazardous Environment Combat Unit, a United States Marine Corps Special Operations division dispatched to cover up the incident by eliminating the organisms, as well as Dr. Freeman and the other surviving Black Mesa personnel. Throughout the game, a mysterious figure known (but not actually referred to in-game) as the "G-Man" regularly appears, and seems to be monitoring Freeman's progress. Ultimately, Freeman uses the cooperation of surviving scientists and security officers to work his way towards the mysterious "Lambda Complex" of Black Mesa (signified with the Greek "λ" character), where a team of survivors teleport him to the alien world Xen to kill the Nihilanth, the semi-physical entity keeping Xen's side of the dimensional rift open.[11]

The game's plot was originally inspired by the video games Doom, Quake (both PC games produced by id Software), and Resident Evil (published by Capcom), Stephen King's short story/novella The Mist, and an episode of The Outer Limitscalled "The Borderland".[14] It was later developed by Valve's in-house writer and author, Marc Laidlaw, who wrote the books Dad's Nuke and The 37th Mandala.[15]



This post has been edited by Commando Nukem: 24 September 2012 - 04:42 PM

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User is offline   Tetsuo 

#69

I think that leads to another point though. Just because Valve may have gotten the basic outline of their plot from Doom doesn't mean they stole everything wholesale from it. Half-Life introduced and evolved quite a few things in its own right which where like I said earlier.. taken back when id made Doom 3. They also got stuff from other shooters as well such as System Shock such as the audio diaries. But again, teleporting around the lamba labs in Black Mesa reminded (retroactively speaking as I played Half-Life before and I forgot about that part) me of the similar sequence in Doom 3 when you activate the portals there and are teleporting around to different points there too and having to pick the correct one to proceed.

This post has been edited by Tetsuo: 24 September 2012 - 08:14 PM

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User is offline   Kathy 

#70

Are we really discussing Doom's influence from a storytelling point?

If anything, I was questioning its direct influence on Half-Life from a gameplay, map design, weapon design, monsters. In other words - anything that made Doom a genre staple.

And originally it wasn't about story either.
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User is offline   Sangman 

#71

View PostTetsuo, on 24 September 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

Just because Valve may have gotten the basic outline of their plot from Doom doesn't mean they stole everything wholesale from it


I'm not claiming that. It's not because X influences Y that Y must be a complete ripoff of X. :) Being influenced by and ripping off are two different things.

View PostBurnett, on 24 September 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

If anything, I was questioning its direct influence on Half-Life from a gameplay, map design, weapon design, monsters. In other words - anything that made Doom a genre staple.


That's a more difficult question. For example both Doom and HL for example have monsters with both a ranged and a melee attack. Does that mean HL's monster design/gameplay was influenced by Doom?

I'm sure they took a few cues from Doom what story and atmosphere was concerned but the gameplay itself was pretty unique at the time AFAIK. (and hell there still hasn't really been a game quite like it has there :P)
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User is offline   X-Vector 

#72

The 90's FPS timeline doesn't jump from Doom straight to Half-Life; I think that from a number of perspectives you could make the case that HL was just as much influenced by Dark Forces as it was by Doom, if not more so.

Take the DF level Ice Station Beta for example; not only does it offer a more realistic depiction of a remote industrial facility than anything in Doom, it also contains the following items that were present in Half-Life:
- ceiling turrets
- industrial crushers
- conveyor belts
- slippery surfaces
- Terminator type robotic enemy (... wait, that's DNF)
All in all, it's not hard to view this level as a precursor to Residue Processing.

On top of that, DF also has a more story and mission oriented structure than other shooters of its era (including Duke Nukem 3D), another aspect it has in common with HL.
Then there's the lack of episodes, the variety in environmental theme and character, the abundance of puzzles and interactivity, recurring platform style gameplay, etc.
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User is offline   necroslut 

#73

I think you all misunderstood me ... I guess that's what I get for posting one-sentence posts.

View PostMicky C, on 24 September 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

Those are all pretty generic concepts though. Take the Mission Improbable level from Duke 3D and I'm pretty sure you'll find Aliens, big guns and a government/military run science facility there. Not to mention the vent crawling and crushers and things which became a significant part of Half Life. Yes I'm aware that Duke 3D was partly inspired by Doom as well, but don't forget HL also has vent crawling and other things that were introduced to gamers in Duke 3D. Back to my original point all these concepts had already existed anyway.

Oh, I didn't say Doom was the only influence. I'd say Duke 3D was by far the biggest, to the point where I agree with Randy Pitchford about "without Duke 3D there would be no Half-Life" (not exact quote). It's obvious to the point where they even took weapons straight from it.
I can't remember where I read it, but I'm pretty sure Valve said themselves that Doom was one of their main influences.
And if you look at Doom from a horror perspective, like you're a kid playing it for the first time in the middle of the night in 1993, I think that's the feeling Valve wanted to recreate. The Doom story if you took it seriously.

View PostTetsuo, on 24 September 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Well, even if they might have been inspired by the "plot" of Doom in Half-Life doesn't mean that id software couldn't have taken stuff back from Half-Life when making Doom 3 such as the health stations and sections similar to "on a rail". That last one is the most obvious one.

In Doom 1 which is the Doom game in question it's sort of like most of the story was in the instruction manual and not really in the game at all. At no point do they ever show or talk about opening a portal or a research installation or anything like that in the first episode of Doom.

Obviously Doom 3 is very heavy influenced by Half-Life (and also System Shock) in many aspects; my point was mainly that since Doom was a big influence on Half-Life it sortof went full circle there.

View PostCommando Nukem, on 24 September 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

I disagree with that oh-so much. Yeah, if you're playing on the lower difficulties KDITD rarely throws more than five guys at you, but if you crank it up, within the first four levels you can kill nearly 300 dudes, exactly 324 enemies. Both E1M3 and E1M4 basically start with you opening a door that leads into a room with about eight guys coming around corners to kill you. (E1M3 actually throws a bit more at you right off the bat, and then has several rooms just filled with enemies.).

Whereas Doom3 barely reaches 200 dudes together by the time you hit the end of Alpha Labs. This is partially due to the fact that Doom 3 simply couldn't do too many enemies on the screen at release because computer hardware just wasn't there yet with most consumers.

Of course there were more enemies in Doom 1, it's just that a lot of people seem to remember Doom 1 as a Serious Sam-style "circle-strafe 600 enemies in a big arena"-kind of shooter, which it wasn't.
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User is offline   thatguy 

#74

This is such a useless argument. What is the point to all of this? You're right? Its not going to lead some better understandings of the games. Just endless debate. Meh.
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User is offline   Sangman 

#75

View Posts.b.Newsom, on 26 September 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

This is such a useless argument. What is the point to all of this? You're right? Its not going to lead some better understandings of the games. Just endless debate. Meh.


Nah man this is just a conversation. But obviously you're too cool to care. :)

This post has been edited by Sangman: 26 September 2012 - 01:32 PM

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User is online   Commando Nukem 

  • Judge Mental

#76

View Posts.b.Newsom, on 26 September 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

This is such a useless argument. What is the point to all of this? You're right? Its not going to lead some better understandings of the games. Just endless debate. Meh.


This is how things go down in these here parts. We don't take kindly to those that don't take kindly. Except for Yatta. Fuck that guy. I'm glad he got banned and minused a thousand points!


(Just to make sure nobody takes me as being serious. Insert "ha ha ha" here. http://forums.duke4.net/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)



View Postnecroslut, on 26 September 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

Of course there were more enemies in Doom 1, it's just that a lot of people seem to remember Doom 1 as a Serious Sam-style "circle-strafe 600 enemies in a big arena"-kind of shooter, which it wasn't.


Never said it was. I was responding specifically to the point that Doom and Doom 3 weren't that different for enemy count, when they very much were. The pace of the combat in both games is absolutely different. Partly because the game was being developed as a horror-atmospheric shooter and because at the time a lot of the tech going into the game made it pretty much impossible to run with a higher enemy count on many common machines available to your average user at the time. In fact it was one of id's objectives to make "Unlike in Doom where you'd be fighting literal hordes, we wanted to make it so just one monster could be enough to scare you." Partly referring to the graphics, but also I think something they established early on as a gameplay change.



Also, just as a general amendment to the whole conversation. I don't get why people automatically jump to the conclusion that just because some of us point out there are similarities between game A and B that it means it's a bad thing? Not at all.

Ironically, Black Mesa Source made a very clever point about this kind of thing with one of the new pre-disaster sequence. A female scientists says something to the affect of "Creativity is the art of hiding what inspired you." Or something to that affect. Just because some people can still pick up on that inspiration, or because the creators admit to the source of inspiration does not mean that it's wrong. It's wrong if someone made a game that played exactly like Doom and says "ITS TEH REVOLUTIONARZ! MAH BARRGHH!!" Honestly, I love all of these games. I love Doom, Doom 2, Final Doom, Doom 3, Half-Life. I think they're all great, and the fact that they all have some common heritage and creative vibes is great.

I'm also quite glad to see Doom, have some kind of a big return to peoples attention. It was a great experience back in 04. I remember bringing that baby home, blocking off my windows, turning off the lights, getting my stereo system JUST RIGHT, and starting it up. I played the entire thing pretty much in one sitting, stopping for food and bathroom use only. I went to bed dreaming of Demons... . and kicking their asses.

This post has been edited by Commando Nukem: 26 September 2012 - 03:45 PM

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User is offline   necroslut 

#77

View PostCommando Nukem, on 26 September 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Never said it was. I was responding specifically to the point that Doom and Doom 3 weren't that different for enemy count, when they very much were. The pace of the combat in both games is absolutely different. Partly because the game was being developed as a horror-atmospheric shooter and because at the time a lot of the tech going into the game made it pretty much impossible to run with a higher enemy count on many common machines available to your average user at the time. In fact it was one of id's objectives to make "Unlike in Doom where you'd be fighting literal hordes, we wanted to make it so just one monster could be enough to scare you." Partly referring to the graphics, but also I think something they established early on as a gameplay change.

No I understood that from your last post, that's why I posted that to clarify what I meant and how I misunderstood you. I'm sure you know how often that "point" is brought up though, and why I'd think that was what you meant.
As for the quote, Doom (as well as Duke 3D) was pretty scary back in the day. Not to everyone, but to quite many. And I think they were both supposed to be even a bit scarier than they came off.
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User is online   Commando Nukem 

  • Judge Mental

#78

View Postnecroslut, on 26 September 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

No I understood that from your last post, that's why I posted that to clarify what I meant and how I misunderstood you. I'm sure you know how often that "point" is brought up though, and why I'd think that was what you meant.
As for the quote, Doom (as well as Duke 3D) was pretty scary back in the day. Not to everyone, but to quite many. And I think they were both supposed to be even a bit scarier than they came off.


To a point that's true. There are several moments in Doom and Duke3D that left me pretty freakin unnerved. (E1M2's soundtrack, E1M8 - the entire level left me totally disturbed.) and of course DUke has Abyss, which is the epitome of creepy alien death cult.


Ironically I think some of those images were a bit more striking than Doom 3 was when it came out, even with all of it's technical stuff brought to bare... But if we're talking of intent, I think when they were making DOOM they did intend for things to make you jump, but the pace was demanding it be closer to a thrill-ride than a terrify you into a corner ride. (Which Doom 3 did do on ocassion... "THEY TOOK MY BABY!" ... *shudder*)
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#79

Now that Doom 3 BFG edition out. What's your impressions of it? Played the PS3 version and it's framerate is smooth at 60 FPS. I didn't mind the absence of the flashlight that can be used as a club in the original Doom 3. Instead it's mounted on your armor. The controls needs some work IMO. You have to hold down the L3 stick to sprint. And what sucks that it lacks the zoom button that the original Doom 3 had. And the PS3 ports of Doom 1 & 2's music is barely audible. Hope they patch these problems in the future.
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User is offline   Lunick 

  • Snazzy Ex Tazzy

#80

It's sitting in my Steam library and I can't do anything with it at the moment...
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User is offline   Kathy 

#81

View PostDustFalcon85, on 16 October 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

You have to hold down the L3 stick to sprint.

Pretty standard for a console controlls.

Quote

And what sucks that it lacks the zoom button that the original Doom 3 had.

Doom3 had a zoom button? I sure don't remember using it. Besides, I always hated this out of nowhere zoom in FPS.
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#82

I'm playing the new mission and it's pretty fun. Tries to be arcadey.

What's the code to unluck the new shotgun from the cabinet?
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User is offline   thatguy 

#83

I'm just impressed ID actually modified the flashlight to be apart of the armor. :)
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User is offline   MetHy 

#84

What did they change of the gameplay of the original game? Is it better or not? I never beat the original game (still have my save), is it worth starting over?

How are the new levels?

also where did you buy it?

This post has been edited by MetHy: 17 October 2012 - 12:15 AM

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#85

Never mind the code for the Boomstick (double barrel) is 731 or 371 I forget. I literally just finished the extra BFG campaign and it's average.

At first I was thinking "Okay, they're just going to throw tons of monsters at me!" and they did. And that was about it. There's a blink and miss it moment where you get a gravity gun and you use it once and never again and it's only for one brief part that you're armed with it. Boomstick is okay. The reload should've been a little faster and it still didn't sound right. All the weapons in Doom 3 now that I think about it didn't sound exhilarating. There's no "fuck yeah, I blew you fucking head off!" with any of the weapons except maybe the rocket launcher and even then it's more fun just to see the ragdolls go flying. Other problem I have with Doom 3 is that it never feels like you're hurting the enemy. They just shrug off damage. The only enemy that screams is the Archville the rest just take it and occasionally stagger. Another problem specific to the Boomstick; the amount of damage it does seems to be totally random. I can run up to an Imp and fire at point blank and about 8-9 times out 10 that kills them. But there's always that one time where it doesn't and you're stuck reloading and then another one spawns. Why doesn't this game have headshots?

Seeing some of the old Doom enemies come back was nice -particularly the Archville- but the lack of the Spider Mastermind pissed me off. The mapping is pretty straightforward too. You're not going to get stuck and the Hell segment is a joke. Just walk up and kill things. No clever map making. No secrets. No special items. Just kill a bunch of monsters and walk up to an ammo/health dump and repeat.

What happened to good mapping in FPS?

Side note: You know you've played too much Brutal Doom when you play Doom 3 and try to taunt after killing a horde of guys.
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User is offline   Loke 

#86

View PostBruno Mattei, on 17 October 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

There's a blink and miss it moment where you get a gravity gun and you use it once and never again and it's only for one brief part that you're armed with it.


Not really. It's great as a defensive weapon against single enemies especially the Hell Knights and Cacodemons.
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User is offline   LkMax 

#87

View PostLoke, on 17 October 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

Not really. It's great as a defensive weapon against single enemies especially the Hell Knights and Cacodemons.

It was my weapon of choice against Lost Souls/Forgotten ones on Ressurrection of Evil. No ammo needed, one-shot kill.
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User is offline   Loke 

#88

View PostLkMax, on 17 October 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

It was my weapon of choice against Lost Souls/Forgotten ones on Ressurrection of Evil. No ammo needed, one-shot kill.


Oh yeah, I forgot. It also insta-kills the Cherubs. Probably works on Trites as well though I've never tried it.
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User is offline   Tea Monster 

  • Polymancer

#89

I loved using it against imps and whatever that thing was that stood in for them in the expansion pack. "Sorry, I think this fireball is yours."

Everyone is freaking out that the High-res options have been cut out on the PC. It may be that the textures are actually lower in quality than the original release if you have the PC version.
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User is offline   MetHy 

#90

So wait, the PC version doesn't have enchanced graphics; so the only difference is the new levels? If that's the case I'm glad I waited and didn't buy it

This post has been edited by MetHy: 17 October 2012 - 09:33 PM

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