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Black Mesa 2012 media campaign

User is offline   thatguy 

#271

View PostBlue Lightning, on 26 December 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

One of the BM team members did respond to us on the Steam forums, after several of us posted about Xen.

stormseeker said this:



So I take this as very excellent news. :) A confirmation that Xen is coming!


All of that was confirmed since the release of Black Mesa....
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#272

Well sure, but it doesnt hurt to have them re-confirm it as time goes on. It tells us they havent dropped it! :)
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User is offline   thatguy 

#273

View PostBlue Lightning, on 27 December 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

Well sure, but it doesnt hurt to have them re-confirm it as time goes on. It tells us they havent dropped it! :)


Why would a greenlit steam mod drop anything? Valve is eyeing them and the bastions of gaming hell is claiming their work is unprofessional. Of course they'll do it. :(

Speaking of Black Mesa Uplink, here's Black Mesa: Hazard Course. :)
http://www.moddb.com...a-hazard-course

This post has been edited by s.b.Newsom: 27 December 2012 - 09:51 AM

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User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#274

View Posts.b.Newsom, on 27 December 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

Valve is eyeing them and the bastions of gaming hell is claiming their work is unprofessional.


Seriously, the word "unprofessional" makes me laugh. Is that the worst criticism they can possibly level against this game? That it's not $59.95 AAA-title Call Of Duty: Black Ops 9000 refined? Hey, guys, guess what: FREE MOD
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#275

View PostAchenar, on 27 December 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

Seriously, the word "unprofessional" makes me laugh. Is that the worst criticism they can possibly level against this game? That it's not $59.95 AAA-title Call Of Duty: Black Ops 9000 refined? Hey, guys, guess what: FREE MOD

QFT

It sure is high quality for a free mod, at least in my opinion.

This post has been edited by Blue Lightning: 30 December 2012 - 06:17 AM

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User is offline   Bloodshot 

#276

I wasn't even looking up Black Mesa and i got this

http://imageshack.us/a/img201/7261/htlbm.jpg

This post has been edited by Bloodshot: 29 December 2012 - 09:37 PM

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User is offline   Person of Color 

  • Senior Unpaid Intern at Viceland

#277

View PostBloodshot, on 25 December 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Don't know if anyone posted this before



Put these in your skill.cfg. Makes the soldier fights a LOT more like HL1


Does that dumb down the AI? I love how smart BM's AI is. Some of the best ever IMO.
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User is offline   Bloodshot 

#278

It reduces their accuracy and lightning fast reaction time to spotting you

So they won't instantly shoot at you the moment you pop around a corner.
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User is offline   ---- 

#279

View Post486DX2, on 30 December 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

Does that dumb down the AI? I love how smart BM's AI is. Some of the best ever IMO.


What is so special about the AI ?

This is an honest question, because here are a few quotes about the AI:

"...soldiers target and fire upon you seemingly the instant you pop from cover, even if you were behind them"

"BM just wasnt fun with the HECU. They basically stood there and fired forever until they reloaded or you hid.
So you either played hide and seek eternally, or just had to snipe the whole time. No variety really, it wasn't fun.
I mean if you know the levels and enemies properly due to multiple play throughs, you probably could. But for 1st-2nd play throughs, you dont get an option."


"here's a HECU soldier around the corner and he didn't yet see you. Now move slightly so all thet you can see is the part of his body, possible an arm or leg. Shoot now and... nothing happens. The soldier stays at his place and screams "My arm! My leg" but doesn't try to avoid the fire or to find who's shooting. No other soldiers will react too as long as they don't see you. After the first soldier dies, you can repeat more and more with all the remaining soldiers as long as you stay invisible."

"Even more, you can do anything just behind the corner of the batch of enemies. Shoot, jump, throw objects, explode grenades/satchels/tripmines/barrels/etc, become berserk and try to break a wall with your crowbar — noone will go to check what's happening. That really sucks and is very un-realistic."

This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 30 December 2012 - 02:07 AM

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#280

I completley disagree with those sentiments.

The AI in BM, specifically the HECU, is VERY smart and challenging. I agree with 486DX2, it is the best AI that I have seen (well, mabye as good as the AI in Dark Messiah Might and Magic, but because of the advanced melee mechanics in DM, that is a whole different potato) as the HECU can shoot from afar, and usually hit you. If you move, they will miss some shots, but are still deadly accurate, even from far away.

If I am snaeking and I see just an arm or something peaking around a corner, I can hit it with a crossbow, and kill that HECU. I do that in Surface Tension. The HECU will shoot and move, and their almost constant movement makes them hard to hit. They take cover too, so all of this makes the HECU very challenging.

They dont have the feature of slowing down or limping when injured, which I think is a feature that is sorley missing from most video game AI, but with everything else they can do, I dont see what the complaint is.

Actually, BM's very best AI are the super-ninja's, but those are encountered only a few times in the game. The HECU are by far the most encountered enemy.

This post has been edited by Blue Lightning: 30 December 2012 - 06:32 AM

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User is offline   ---- 

#281

View PostBlue Lightning, on 30 December 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

Iit is the best AI that I have seen.... as the HECU can shoot from afar, and usually hit you.


Lol. This is the easiest part to programm (every n00b can do this) and is the opposite of AI. It is a simple line trace. Good AI is there to simulate human behaviour.

For your information. Every halfway decent devloper tries hard to avoid what you call "best AI ever seen". Maybe get a clue about things, once in a while (not that I haven't told you that before several times, but one can hope that sometimes it'll work).



As said. When you shoot the soldiers and you partially (!!!) hide, they do nothing. Often surrounding soldiers won't react at all if their mates are killed right next to them, they have next to no reaction time when shot from behind, etc...

This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 30 December 2012 - 06:48 AM

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User is offline   Bloodshot 

#282

While they are not excellent, they are leagues better then the Combine AI from HL2 when you make them not super accurate. They actually do try to flank you while others stay back and supress and take cover and flush you out with grenades from time to time, unlinke HL2 where they literally all just either stand still or charge straight at your face 90% of the time.

This post has been edited by Bloodshot: 30 December 2012 - 01:04 PM

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User is offline   ---- 

#283

View PostBloodshot, on 30 December 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

While they are not excellent, they are leagues better then the Combine AI from HL2 when you make them not super accurate. They actually do try to flank you while others stay back and supress and take cover and flush you out with grenades from time to time, unlinke HL2 where they literally all just either stand still or charge straight at your face 90% of the time.


That is true. :)
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User is offline   Person of Color 

  • Senior Unpaid Intern at Viceland

#284

View PostBlue Lightning, on 30 December 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

I completley disagree with those sentiments.

The AI in BM, specifically the HECU, is VERY smart and challenging. I agree with 486DX2, it is the best AI that I have seen (well, mabye as good as the AI in Dark Messiah Might and Magic, but because of the advanced melee mechanics in DM, that is a whole different potato) as the HECU can shoot from afar, and usually hit you. If you move, they will miss some shots, but are still deadly accurate, even from far away.

If I am snaeking and I see just an arm or something peaking around a corner, I can hit it with a crossbow, and kill that HECU. I do that in Surface Tension. The HECU will shoot and move, and their almost constant movement makes them hard to hit. They take cover too, so all of this makes the HECU very challenging.

Actually, BM's very best AI are the super-ninja's, but those are encountered only a few times in the game. The HECU are by far the most encountered enemy.


Agreed. I don't know why anyone would want to dumb this down at all. If you want proof of how smart BM's AI is, check out the warehouse levels, right before you exit the new facility and try to gain access to the run down area that leads to the silo. There's multiple areas where they can camp out behind crates on the walkways above you. If you hurt them enough, they'll hide behind the crate for half a minute or more, playing dead. Then, as you move closer to them, they pop out and try to frag you. They are ESPECIALLY devious with that small office over the walkway - they'll usually pull that stunt there.

I warned my buddy about that when he reached the warehouse level. He was in awe as to how real the AI is. It's like fighting real life Asians! Best AI ever.

View Postfuegerstef, on 30 December 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

Lol. This is the easiest part to programm (every n00b can do this) and is the opposite of AI. It is a simple line trace. Good AI is there to simulate human behaviour.

For your information. Every halfway decent devloper tries hard to avoid what you call "best AI ever seen". Maybe get a clue about things, once in a while (not that I haven't told you that before several times, but one can hope that sometimes it'll work).



As said. When you shoot the soldiers and you partially (!!!) hide, they do nothing. Often surrounding soldiers won't react at all if their mates are killed right next to them, they have next to no reaction time when shot from behind, etc...


The AI has always reacted to me killing their buddies. I've had them hunt me down when I hide. More times than I can count in fact...especially when you try to reach the missle launch controls. I totally disagree with you on that point. It's more than a simple line trace, they are completely unpredictable. As far as I am concerned, it's a welcome change of pace. I like having antagonists with the same reflexes I have.

I've been sorely disappointed with FPS AI for years. Designers need to focus on having less enemies on screen, that are far smarter and more lethal. I'm sick of setpieces being the lead attraction, and developers making huge battles that are only good in old school games with keycards. BM manages to be smart without being cheap. That's what impresses me the most. It's not like playing Street fighter II or MK3, it feels very real.

View PostAchenar, on 27 December 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

Seriously, the word "unprofessional" makes me laugh. Is that the worst criticism they can possibly level against this game? That it's not $59.95 AAA-title Call Of Duty: Black Ops 9000 refined? Hey, guys, guess what: FREE MOD


Yeah, seriously. What the fuck is wrong with people?

"Oh, look. A texture is misaligned." Whoa, hold on there partner! Not so fast, I need another hour to finish not giving a shit. Under orders from the mighty Gabe, they had to create all their own assets. Audio, textures, models, you name it. The game looks fantastic. What's more, I'm a HUGE stickler when it comes to audio, and BM makes my Paradigm Atom speakers sing better than 95% of the commercial games out today.

It's FREE. F-R-E-E. Holy shit. Seriously, find me a free single player modern style FPS that's this good. Here's a protip: You can't.

This post has been edited by 486DX2: 30 December 2012 - 07:11 PM

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User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#285

View Post486DX2, on 30 December 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

It's FREE. F-R-E-E. Holy shit. Seriously, find me a free single player modern style FPS that's this good. Here's a protip: You can't.


Well you could try playing Duke Nukem Reloaded OH WAIT A MINUTE

(sorry, I know that was a low blow)
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User is offline   Person of Color 

  • Senior Unpaid Intern at Viceland

#286

View PostAchenar, on 30 December 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Well you could try playing Duke Nukem Reloaded OH WAIT A MINUTE

(sorry, I know that was a low blow)


Shit, I neg repped you by accident. I was going to bring that up but chose not to.
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#287

View Post486DX2, on 30 December 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

Agreed. I don't know why anyone would want to dumb this down at all. If you want proof of how smart BM's AI is, check out the warehouse levels, right before you exit the new facility and try to gain access to the run down area that leads to the silo. There's multiple areas where they can camp out behind crates on the walkways above you. If you hurt them enough, they'll hide behind the crate for half a minute or more, playing dead. Then, as you move closer to them, they pop out and try to frag you. They are ESPECIALLY devious with that small office over the walkway - they'll usually pull that stunt there.

You talking about the HECU, or the Ninja's? Agreed, the HECU are very tough, and I thought their evasive movements are very well coded.

The Ninja's on the "hard" setting I call "Super Ninja's". Not only are they so fast and able to jump twenty feet up in a single bound, but they have the added ability of invisible cloak. With that added feature, they are VERY HARD to fight. And they are smart. I can get in a corner and plant a radio bomb far in front of me, and it's as if they know it. They will hit me with a pistol from afar, or try coming at me from an un-expected direction.

This post has been edited by Blue Lightning: 30 December 2012 - 07:26 PM

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User is offline   Person of Color 

  • Senior Unpaid Intern at Viceland

#288

I think that in the heat of battle they are both pretty damn great.

I have no idea why Fuegerstef hates them so much.

I honestly don't care that the code isn't written to his standard. In the heat of battle, it's FAR more convincing than the mentally challenged AI I'm so used to seeing. I don't want code that simulates intelligence if it does an unconvincing job. 90% of AI does that, it either takes too long, makes poor decisions, or feels robotic. BM's does it a hell of a lot less.

You can lecture me all you want as to how the code is "dirty" or "unprofessional." I'm not looking at the fucking source code. I'm shooting someone in the face.

This is the first time I've seen people complain about the AI, be it in The Internet or RL. People usually find reasons to bitch about anything on here. Everyone I know personally is wowed by it. God forbid our adversaries have equal reaction times and seek cover as quickly as us.

This post has been edited by 486DX2: 30 December 2012 - 09:46 PM

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User is offline   ---- 

#289

View Post486DX2, on 30 December 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:


I have no idea why Fuegerstef hates them so much.


I don't hate them. Not at all. I was pointing out their flaws and mainly saying that a dead on accuracy is not great AI. By that logic Far Cry 1 had one of the greates AI ever. They can see you through trees from over 2 miles away and still headshot you in no time.

Don't know why you think that this AI is so great (maybe low standards):


It is still better than HL2 though where you can hide behind a cola can that you carry with the gravgun and the enemies won't see you although you are right in front of them. In BM they see you a bit better (but still don't see you as a real person would). Then I also said that often they don't react to mates being shot, not always.




And for your amusement we have the HL2 example in action:

It is a jar , not a cola can in that example


EDIT:
Oh, I stand corrected it seems the same flaw is in BM too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0a72exJIEY

You see, you can still hide behind a cola can in Black Mesa that you carry around with you. and the enemy doesn't see you. To me that is not "the best AI ever" which was the sentence why I even started to reply on this subject.

This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 30 December 2012 - 11:39 PM

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User is offline   thatguy 

#290

View Postfuegerstef, on 30 December 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

EDIT:
Oh, I stand corrected it seems the same flaw is in BM too: https://www.youtube....h?v=v0a72exJIEY

You see, you can still hide behind a cola can in Black Mesa that you carry around with you. and the enemy doesn't see you. To me that is not "the best AI ever" which was the sentence why I even started to reply on this subject.


You know, AI isn't just defined by 'Instant kill' and all. Sometimes it involves tactics, the ability to make a choice, etc. Obviously not, you're absolutely right. http://forums.duke4.net/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif Else you would of gotten past that part like everyone else.

This post has been edited by s.b.Newsom: 31 December 2012 - 12:18 AM

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User is offline   ---- 

#291

View Posts.b.Newsom, on 31 December 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

You know, AI isn't just defined by 'Instant kill' and all. Sometimes it involves tactics, the ability to make a choice, etc. Obviously not, you're absolutely right. http://forums.duke4.net/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif Else you would of gotten past that part like everyone else.


I got past that part like everybody else. Except the person who made that video. And where did I ever state AI was about instant kills or anything else of the crap you made up?

Why are there always some people with no clue who won't admit they have no clue but open their mouth instead? When I link to a YouTube video by a person with a totally different nick POSTED MONTHS AGO whereas I stated that I just found that MINUTES AGO it is clearly NOT MADE BY ME. Jesus, can someone turn off the simple ones in 2013, please. It would make life so much easier as one doesn't have to explain everything to them.

And the video I linked to is not about tactics at all (too much for your brain, I know) IT IS ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU CAN CARRY A CAN AROUND AND HIDE BEHIND IT AND THE AI WON'T RECOGNIZE YOU. IT IS CLEARLY A DEMOSTRATION OF THE AI'S FLAWS IN THE GAME NOT HOW THAT PLAYER MANAGED TO GET PAST THAT PARTICULAR PLACE IN THE GAME That fact that the AI can so easily be "cheated" causes other anomalies in other places of the game, you know.


That radically idiotic post by that Newsom dude would imply that if there are bugs and flaws in a game they shouldn't be fixed ... HOM-Effect in a Duke map ... hey, look elsewhere when you go past that section.


EDIT:
But I finally learned something . Viewed from far below the intelligence in BM must look like Einsteins and Hawkings combined to some. Everything is relative, right?

This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 31 December 2012 - 12:53 AM

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User is offline   Person of Color 

  • Senior Unpaid Intern at Viceland

#292

It's not your message. It's your attitude.
2

User is offline   Bloodshot 

#293

View Postfuegerstef, on 30 December 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:


EDIT:
Oh, I stand corrected it seems the same flaw is in BM too:

You see, you can still hide behind a cola can in Black Mesa that you carry around with you. and the enemy doesn't see you. To me that is not "the best AI ever" which was the sentence why I even started to reply on this subject.


I just tested this, it only works with soldiers on .50 cals. Regular soldiers will still kill you regardless of what you hold in front of their faces

IMO I think they should ditch the current HECU AI and use their Fassn AI as a base. It's leagues better, just needs to be tweaked for slower soldiers that can't do flips.

Although going back and playing WGH again, maybe it's just to do with the noding of the maps? In WGH they actually do effectively harass you sometimes and try to sneak behind you.

This post has been edited by Bloodshot: 31 December 2012 - 02:35 PM

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#294

View Post486DX2, on 31 December 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

It's not your message. It's your attitude.

Agreed. His attitude is terrible. He tells people to "get a clue" and calls people idiots because the didnt see an earlier post. 5th graders talk like that.

Hey fuegerstef, we like the AI in BM. If you dont, who cares.

This post has been edited by Blue Lightning: 31 December 2012 - 07:47 PM

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User is offline   Person of Color 

  • Senior Unpaid Intern at Viceland

#295

It's not even that.

Look, Fuegerstef, I have no problem with you. I applaud the way you handled the whole DN3D Reloaded fiasco. You were very upfront with us. Personally, I think the new ROTT looks badass, and I can't wait to play it. I've already listened to the new "FASTWAY" remix on an endless loop. I'm giving you guys the benefit of the doubt because Gearbox/2K are mad shady.

But dude, calling Black Mesa "unprofessional" takes some balls. Especially when you're a member of a company who's debut title fell flat on it's ass into a puddle of wet shit. The icing on the cake is that you're talking shit, viciously, about one of the most revered mods ever created - on a forum populated with the same fans you let down before.

That seriously pissed me off. I'm probably not the only one.

This post has been edited by 486DX2: 31 December 2012 - 11:59 PM

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User is offline   Bloodshot 

#296

I just noticed the Alien Grunt's footstep sound comes from the same sound library 3DR used in Duke3D, and is the same footstep sound that was used for some enemies in Duke

This post has been edited by Bloodshot: 01 January 2013 - 01:29 AM

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#297

I think the amusing thing to note is that all these little things about the AI are things that are very difficult to run into if you don't know about them. I never encountered any of these oddities you're making a big deal of here because in normal play you don't really run into things like the door blasting. And that physics object trick is so specific (only works on mounted guns) that it's actually rather bizarre that anyone noticed it. you can say it's amatuerish all you want, but it's clear that the HL2 base they used has this, so what exactly makes this so special to point out?
Point is, every AI system has it's weird shit about them, and this is no exception. Penumbera Overture's AI was probably the worst I'd ever seen, especially since the spiders in that game could literally leap themselves out of existence

This post has been edited by Colon Semicolon: 01 January 2013 - 05:10 AM

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User is offline   Person of Color 

  • Senior Unpaid Intern at Viceland

#298

My personal favorite AI glitch was in FreeSpace. Wingmen, when flying at low speed, in formation, would sometimes get "stuck" to each other in a rapid series of weak collisions. So rapid, in fact, the sound effects would preempt each other and get cut off. This was VERY entertaining when one of them had like 5% health - they'd blow up pretty quick on the higher difficulties.

Easily fixed with a laser blast in their general direction.

This post has been edited by 486DX2: 01 January 2013 - 02:58 AM

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User is offline   Sangman 

#299

For the record I agree with fuegerstef - having AI that is insanely accurate and quick to react does not automatically make it good..

The only examples of proper AI that I can recall are the original HL and F.E.A.R. (1). HL2 and BM, not so much. They have an AI that serves its purpose but calling it the "Best AI ever" is of course completely ridiculous.
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User is offline   thatguy 

#300

View PostSangman, on 01 January 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

For the record I agree with fuegerstef - having AI that is insanely accurate and quick to react does not automatically make it good..

The only examples of proper AI that I can recall are the original HL and F.E.A.R. (1). HL2 and BM, not so much. They have an AI that serves its purpose but calling it the "Best AI ever" is of course completely ridiculous.


I'm curious, who is saying the AI is good? All I see is people saying that its not terrible.
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