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Black Mesa 2012 media campaign

User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#241

View Postfuegerstef, on 18 December 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Look, my maps I made for UT2004 were rated as "as good as the retail content" by some people.


That is certainly an impeccably credible source.
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User is offline   ---- 

#242

View PostAchenar, on 18 December 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

That is certainly an impeccably credible source.


Yes, that's why I emphasized on it and even mentioned it twice. I feared I need to mention it three times to be recognized. :)

But still I think gameplaywise it has retail quality (it is only a map, not a full mod, of course). The assets were retail that's why I wouldn't consider that achievement not as high as makling everything from assets to gameplay. But it shows that you can achieve the same level of quality (and sometmimes even higher when you look at some sold products out there).
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User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#243

The main problem I have with your line of thinking is that terms like "retail/professional quality" are buzzwords devoid of any actual meaning due to the many different ways that can be interpreted.
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User is offline   ---- 

#244

View PostAchenar, on 18 December 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

The main problem I have with your line of thinking is that terms like "retail/professional quality" are buzzwords devoid of any actual meaning due to the many different ways that can be interpreted.


Then lets agree on polish. Most retail games have a certrain level of polish. Not only when it comes to bugs or glitches, but also graphics and sound and so on.

Texture size, gameplay style and so on is a matter of taste and platform limitations and what the company aims for. But in the end most retail games (Uwe Boll's Tunnel Rats aside) have a certain amount of polish.

What I mean in regards to Black Mesa as an example (please note that I am leaving out bugs which can be fixed later and are normal at release due to the teams having less hardware to test on, etc..):
There is stuff that shouldn't happen like the screws you get stuck on. I played throughit once and got stuck 3 or 4 times. You don't need a full Q&A team to notice that. And in modern mapping this is one of the first things you learn.
Then some graphical effects look bad (IMHO) like the smoke coming from the infamous casserole (spelling)? Where I asked myself: Who let that slip through?

They needed a bit of outside input too. The whole crouch-jumping got so many complaints. And it was obvious that an outside tester had noticed that early in the development. I mean, there is a reason you only need to crouch jump here and there in HL2 and then it is mostly for secret places.

And before anybody says the obvious: No, I had no trouble pressing two buttons for that. I only find that it is bad game design. Nothing else. In HL1 you needed crouch jumping for special occasions making it a special jump. In BM it is nothing but a normal jump with two keys and nothing special anymore. A producer or senior gameplay designer had eliminated that.

This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 18 December 2012 - 02:39 PM

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User is offline   t800 

#245

View Postfuegerstef, on 18 December 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

In HL1 you needed crouch jumping for special occasions making it a special jump.

I have to disagree with you on this. From what I rember I had to use crouch-jump in HL1 pretty much everywhere. Not only for entering ventilation shafts or climbing on boxes but also for doing jumps across chasms, etc... because I found out that crouch-jump is superior to ordinary jump in almost every way (even in overcoming long distances).

I understand intention of putting crouch-jump in BMS. Developers wanted to cater for HL1 players, so they decided to keep some element gameplay mechanics similar to original. Notice that in options you can also disable iron sights for magnum and enable permanent running for more classic experience. On other hand I agree with you partially, they should have added it as optional setting for players who hated it. :)
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User is offline   Kathy 

#246

View Postfuegerstef, on 18 December 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

No. The point is to try to make professional quality. Which usually is not achieved, though.

I always thought the point was to bring something interesting/different to the game which professional development team could not because of various limits which imposed once the money entered the stage. On the other hand modders don't have enough resources to compete with professionals in other areas. Unless of course you want to develop a mod for like 10 years.

Well, it depends, I guess.
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User is offline   ---- 

#247

View PostBurnett, on 18 December 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

I always thought the point was to bring something interesting/different to the game...


I wish that was true too. If that was true we wouldn't get the same mods over and over again. :)

But still there is no point of not trying to make it look and play professional (i.e. polished, no matter what artstyle you go after ... it is the same as with indie devs. They don'T have the ressources tor games like Far Cry. SO they go for styylistic artstyles which look professional on their own)


@t800
The normal jump height is lower than in HL1. You had to do crouch jumps in HL1, but not everywhere. In BM it is just useless to just jump (unless you do it for listening to the jump sound). I tried finding that quote from a BM dev who said that they thought it added to the gameplay the way they changed it, but I can't ... ironically because of the millins of crouch jump threads over at the BM forums. :)

This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 18 December 2012 - 03:35 PM

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User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#248

I pretty much agree with everything that Fuegerstef is saying except for the part about getting stuck. Sure, Half-Life is a relatively linear game and therefore its very purpose is to ship you along as quickly as possible, but I enjoy hitting dead-ends and being forced to figure out what to do next. For me it prolongs the experience in a game that could otherwise be completed very quickly. This is partly why I enjoy the Tomb Raider series so much.
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User is offline   Kathy 

#249

I remember playing HL campaign without knowing about crouch jump feature up until some moment when you needed to go into the tube/pipe and I couldn't reach it with a normal jump.

2Achenar: fuegerstef was obviously talking about places where you'd stuck because of some texture model getting in you way, not because you needed to figure out something.

This post has been edited by Burnett: 18 December 2012 - 03:59 PM

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User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#250

View PostBurnett, on 18 December 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

2Achenar: fuegerstef was obviously talking about places where you'd stuck because of some texture model getting in you way, not because you needed to figure out something.


Okay, whoops. I misread that then.
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#251

View PostAchenar, on 18 December 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

I pretty much agree with everything that Fuegerstef is saying except for the part about getting stuck. Sure, Half-Life is a relatively linear game and therefore its very purpose is to ship you along as quickly as possible, but I enjoy hitting dead-ends and being forced to figure out what to do next. For me it prolongs the experience in a game that could otherwise be completed very quickly. This is partly why I enjoy the Tomb Raider series so much.


Yeah. Burnett is right. It is for example quite at the beginning of Black Mesa where you have metallic walls with screws sticking out and 2cm ledges at the bottom. In real life you have a soft body and you would just walk past the screws even when touching them. In BM your solid hitbox gets stuck on it.

And I agree on crouch jumping for special occasion. Like the ladder in the lift or so. For BM I used that script though where you can hold jump for crouch jumping because you needed it much too often and it got annoying to get over obstacles you wouldn't even need to jump over normally in real life. I didn't want to alter the jumping speed as others have done because that would change jumps as the devs had them intended to be.

This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 18 December 2012 - 04:05 PM

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#252

I found this on the Steam forums. It seems that a mapper released "uplink" for Black Mesa. Of course "Uplink" was a demo recreated for Half Life 1 and released by Valve in 1999, intended to let the gamer play though content that got scraped for the original game. So now someone made a new version of "Uplink" for Black Mesa!

Quote

Surpried no one posted this before me.

http://www.pcgamer.c...esa-uplink-mod/

Black Mesa: Uplink mod recreates Half-Life demo with Source graphics

Moddb site.

http://www.moddb.com...ack-mesa-uplink

sm


This post has been edited by Blue Lightning: 18 December 2012 - 08:39 PM

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User is offline   thatguy 

#253

That was already posted on the last page. Are you going to call that mod more professional than BMS? lol

Uplink was not 'scrapped' content. Its a self contained demo that provides the basis of the game without spoiling anything. A lot of games did that in the 90s.

This post has been edited by s.b.Newsom: 19 December 2012 - 11:13 AM

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#254

View Posts.b.Newsom, on 19 December 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

That was already posted on the last page. Are you going to call that mod more professional than BMS? lol

Uplink was not 'scrapped' content. Its a self contained demo that provides the basis of the game without spoiling anything. A lot of games did that in the 90s.

Who said anything about "pro"? I just posted a link is all.

I played Uplink. It is incredibley wanting. The HECU are everywhere, and you have no real weapons. The shotgun and machine gun alone, are not good enough to fight waves of Marines. It gets boring.

Some of the construction is off. Behind the exploding soda machine lies the steam pipe and valve, INSIDE the wall that just blew. Huh?

Invisible walls will not allow a player to get on top of the shipping containers. Boo.

Some ambient noises found in OAR, were OUTSIDE in the shipping container parts.

The mod needs these issues addressed. polish....

There is a tool that allows you to overide all Uplink files so BMS is back the way it was...so the files are dead but still in there. I had to go into my BMS folder, and manually remove all the uplink files. It was a pain.

This post has been edited by Blue Lightning: 20 December 2012 - 07:01 AM

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User is offline   Bloodshot 

#255

View PostBlue Lightning, on 20 December 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

Some of the construction is off. Behind the exploding soda machine lies the steam pipe and valve, INSIDE the wall that just blew. Huh?


You do realize that part was a little joke/easter egg right?
1

User is offline   thatguy 

#256

View PostBlue Lightning, on 20 December 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

Who said anything about "pro"? I just posted a link is all.

I played Uplink. It is incredibley wanting. The HECU are everywhere, and you have no real weapons. The shotgun and machine gun alone, are not good enough to fight waves of Marines. It gets boring.

Some of the construction is off. Behind the exploding soda machine lies the steam pipe and valve, INSIDE the wall that just blew. Huh?

Invisible walls will not allow a player to get on top of the shipping containers. Boo.

Some ambient noises found in OAR, were OUTSIDE in the shipping container parts.

The mod needs these issues addressed. polish....

There is a tool that allows you to overide all Uplink files so BMS is back the way it was...so the files are dead but still in there. I had to go into my BMS folder, and manually remove all the uplink files. It was a pain.


Why is it that all of these things make a game professional? No, its the overall image, its flow, and its effort that makes it professional. I feel like you have no idea what you're talking about.
2

#257

No, your clueless. The overall flow is ruined thanks to unbalenced battle dynamics which I explained.
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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#258

I loved Uplink.
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User is offline   ---- 

#259

View PostBlue Lightning, on 22 December 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

The overall flow is ruined thanks to unbalenced battle dynamics which I explained.


I am too lazy to go theough the thread.

Are you talking about the main Black Mesa campaign (not an additional mod, like Uplink or the added Surface Tension parts)?

If yes, then hell has frozen over and we agree for once. At least in some parts of the game.


EDIT:
OK, just saw you talked about Uplink. I haven't played that. But as I think that even the main BM suffered from bad combat mechanics in some parts I think I can ignore Uplink d for now.

This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 25 December 2012 - 03:03 AM

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User is online   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#260

You know Uplink is the official demo for Half-Life, right? It's not a fan project and has nothing to do with BM.

This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 25 December 2012 - 08:53 AM

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User is offline   thatguy 

#261

Exactly. Half-Life Uplink was a 'Shareware' type of demo with a fully featured standalone campaign. Black Mesa: Uplink is a mod for Black Mesa that utilizes the BM assets to recreate that campaign. Its weak in my opinion because it doesn't match the awesomness of the Blue Shift and Opposing Forces mods. :)
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User is offline   Bloodshot 

#262

Don't know if anyone posted this before

Quote

ai_readiness_decay "10"
ai_reaction_delay_alert "0.3"
ai_reaction_delay_idle "0.75"
ai_shot_bias "4"
ai_shot_bias_max "5"
ai_shot_bias_min "3"
ai_LOS_mode "1"


Put these in your skill.cfg. Makes the soldier fights a LOT more like HL1
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User is offline   ---- 

#263

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 25 December 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

You know Uplink is the official demo for Half-Life, right? It's not a fan project and has nothing to do with BM.


Yes, I know. Why did you ask? Because we are talking about the Uplink remake for Black MEsa which Blue Lightining reffered to:

"I found this on the Steam forums. It seems that a mapper released "uplink" for Black Mesa."

and later:

The mod needs these issues addressed. polish....



BTW: The Uplink for Black Mesa mod has a lot to do with Black Mesa because it is a mod for Black Mesa, which makes it a Black Mesa-mod that has a lot to with Black Mesa..

This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 25 December 2012 - 03:53 PM

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#264

Yes indeed, and in my opinion it is a good effort...but incredebly wanting. The main problem was the very unbalenced battles, where the odds are against the player in a big way. A Handhive or Gauss gun would of helped, but a Machine gun with no SMG's and a shotgun just isnt enough.
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User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#265

It's a demo... Demos aren't supposed to show all the game's content in one go... I personally didn't have any trouble beating Uplink.
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User is offline   Bloodshot 

#266

Plus your arsenal was pretty much exactly the same as the original Uplink demo
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User is offline   ---- 

#267

View PostBloodshot, on 25 December 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

Plus your arsenal was pretty much exactly the same as the original Uplink demo


Please note that I haven't played Uplink (the mod) yet and so I speak generally.

The arsenal has nothing to with it being playable or not if weapon damage and accuracy and maybe ROF are lower than in the original and on the other side the enemies have insane reaction time, aimbot-like accuracy and deal damage like my wife if I had cheated her.

This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 26 December 2012 - 02:00 AM

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User is offline   Loke 

#268

View PostAchenar, on 25 December 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

It's a demo... Demos aren't supposed to show all the game's content in one go... I personally didn't have any trouble beating Uplink.


The only area in which I had some difficulties was in the dome with the continuously (?) spawning marines. But that wasn't necessarily due to the mod but rather the annoyance and unbalanced nature of the marines (i.e. reaction time of a top 5 tier Quake player and pinpoint accuracy).
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User is offline   Bloodshot 

#269

View Postfuegerstef, on 26 December 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

Please note that I haven't played Uplink (the mod) yet and so I speak generally.

The arsenal has nothing to with it being playable or not if weapon damage and accuracy and maybe ROF are lower than in the original and on the other side the enemies have insane reaction time, aimbot-like accuracy and deal damage like my wife if I had cheated her.


And i was just talking about it in terms of it being faithful to the demo. It was actually still very possible to complete with the weapons you are given. In fact, I recently replayed Uplink afterwards and the first couple of soldiers in the warehouse were actually harder to fight because you have the glock until you kill one of them in both, and the glock is much more useful against soldiers in BM (and because the HL1 soldiers have much more health that you kind of need a better weapon to go up against them anyway)

This post has been edited by Bloodshot: 26 December 2012 - 10:42 AM

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#270

One of the BM team members did respond to us on the Steam forums, after several of us posted about Xen.

stormseeker said this:

Quote

We are definitely working on Xen, as well as our deathmatch component and bugfixes.


Quote

I'm a level designer, yes. More details in my steam profile about what I'm up to and what I've done. http://www.moddb.com...ers/stormseeker or there to see some pics etc.


So I take this as very excellent news. :) A confirmation that Xen is coming!

This post has been edited by Blue Lightning: 26 December 2012 - 07:55 PM

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