[Kathy]

Instead of trolling with that stupid image would someone give the actual map design from Halo, Bioshock or something?

[----]

ROTT 2012 Patch v1.1 Changelist

- AI removed due to complaints about difficulty
- Traps removed due to complaints about difficulty
- Two weapon system introduced for the modern gamer
- Regenerating health introduced for the modern gamer
- Numerous bug fixes/weapon balancing (flamewall no longer kills people, just burns them)
- Gibs removed due to PMSing soccer moms in the USA


https://www.facebook...377102599028733

[Tetsuo]

Burnett, on 18 August 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Instead of trolling with that stupid image would someone give the actual map design from Halo, Bioshock or something?

How dare you even think about defending modern games!

Kidding aside, it almost seems like that modern vs classic level design meme has been accepted as literal truth and anyone saying otherwise is a CoD apologist. People want to tear me a new one for suggesting that it's an exaggeration (I even think it's at least a little misleading in a way). But I guess they are going more with how the gameplay feels rather than what the levels are actually designed. To them it FEELS like the map in the middle and that's all that counts. But then again there's still a variety of different types of FPS right now and they aren't all the same... even if they are modern.

Also apparently if you don't have the same exact opinion as others then it must mean you don't understand. But no they won't put up or shut up. We are just supposed to accept that meme image as literal truth for all modern games. I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't particularly care for that image though and I'm not even a CoD fan. I even have a strong taste for the classics and play them all the time... (Duke3D, ROTT, Doom, etc., even newer classics like Clive Barker's Undying & Deus Ex)

On the other hand, I know Interceptor probably posted that tongue in cheek to please the fans. But to be honest with you I have already been personally getting sick of seeing it... but I figured that was just me.

So here we go here are some modern maps just for fun:

Apollo Square.. Bioshock: http://images4.wikia...Map_Diffuse.png
(the overview maps don't do the levels justice in bioshock in my opinion)

Couldn't find a good Halo map overview but here's one from CoD Modern Warfare 3: http://d2zuh3f63figq...example_map.jpg

Another one: http://images1.wikia...iew_Bakaara.PNG

Here's one from Singularity from Raven Software: http://img.photobuck...singularity.jpg
(that one just seems to be a portion of a map)

They are probably lies.

For full disclosure though I'm more of a fan of the Bioshocks, FEARs, Wolfenstein, etc. myself than a CoD fan. I have never actually sat down and completed a CoD game... it's not my cup of tea.... and this ROTT remake if done well is more up my alley. I liked Singularity too although I thought Raven's work on Wolfenstein was stronger and more polished.

I suspect I'll get downvoted and possibly flamed for this post.

[Green]

The image is an exaggeration of linearity in modern videogames, mainly the Call of Duty videogames, but is to a certain degree valid. Playing any of the Modern Warfare titles is like being led through a straight linear path with set dressing on either side of you, all you can do is walk straight forward and you can not take any alternate paths or deviate from the linear path. From what I recall Bioshock was a fairly open videogame that took quite a bit of wandering around to find things and accomplish what had to be done, the same applies to Singularity although I haven't played Singularity in a long time I do recall it not being linear to the degree that you're just walking in a straight line ala the Call of Duty videogames. The images you've posted of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare maps are from the games multiplayer component which features maps that are alot more open than the maps in single player and therefore can not be compared to the 'FPS Map Design' image as the image is representing maps from the single player component of the videogame.

But yes, what you're saying is absolutely correct. The image is an exaggeration of modern level design and does not apply to all modern videogames but it is common in quite a few modern games, mainly the Call of Duty videogames, that you're constantly having your hand held and for the most part all you're doing is following a linear path that does not offer any sort of exploration or alternate routes to complete the level.

[Kathy]

Tetsuo, on 18 August 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Couldn't find a good Halo map overview but here's one from CoD Modern Warfare 3: http://d2zuh3f63figq...example_map.jpg

Another one: http://images1.wikia...iew_Bakaara.PNG

Aren't these MP maps?

Green, on 19 August 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

The image is an exaggeration of linearity in modern videogames, mainly the Call of Duty videogames, but is to a certain degree valid. Playing any of the Modern Warfare titles is like being led through a straight linear path with set dressing on either side of you, all you can do is walk straight forward and you can not take any alternate paths or deviate from the linear path.

Well, of course we understand what this image means and it's funny, but having it as an argument almost every time there is a discussion about old vs new is akin to Godwin's law. It's just a stupid funny image, nothing else. But when you have two map designs from the editor being compared to an exaggerated joke about flow of gameplay it doesn't even look funny, just stupid.

[Fox]

Green, on 19 August 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

The image is an exaggeration of linearity in modern videogames

The sad part is that it is not.

[Tetsuo]

Burnett, on 19 August 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

Aren't these MP maps?

They probably are but I was having a hard time finding any map overviews for the single player maps. Has anyone done any? I don't have any CoD games installed right now so I did a google search for a map overview for it (it being the series.. a good actual representative of typical level design in it).

Quote

Well, of course we understand what this image means and it's funny, but having it as an argument almost every time there is a discussion about old vs new is akin to Godwin's law. It's just a stupid funny image, nothing else. But when you have two map designs from the editor being compared to an exaggerated joke about flow of gameplay it doesn't even look funny, just stupid.

I couldn't agree more and I couldn't have said it better. Also thanks Green, so there's a bit more rationality here than I was lead to believe.

Anyway I totally understand that there is some truth to the image I mean.. it can certainly feel that way when someone is playing a game... as I've said before.

BTW, Singularity was quite linear and not quite as open as Bioshock. It was more linear than Raven's Wolfenstein and had a lot more cut scenes and cinematic stuff... it even had parts where NPCs open doors for you. But I still quite enjoyed it I've actually completed it several times on a couple of computers. It also had a part where you had to get through it with a gas mask that so reminded me of ROTT.

[Fox]

Looking at the videos, the game looks surprisingly professional considering that Fresch guy behaved like a 5 years old around Internet boards.

[Kathy]

Tetsuo, on 19 August 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

They probably are but I was having a hard time finding any map overviews for the single player maps. Has anyone done any? I don't have any CoD games installed right now so I did a google search for a map overview for it.

I stumbled on NeoGaf thread about the the same "issue" and haven't seen SP maps posted there either except Bioshock, which is an in-game map.

[rasmus thorup]

Fox, on 19 August 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

The sad part is that it is not.

Then why did you upvote it?

[Tetsuo]

I was just about to lay down when I realized Singularity has at least one level that is the closest to being a literal representation of the "2010" example in that pic that I have personally played. The level I'm thinking of is the train boss level where a giant boss with handy glowing pustule weak spots topples the train you are riding and there's literally no exploration there just moving forward in the winding wreck of a train on a bridge interspersed by short cut scenes. You could say that level was "on rails" bah-dum-tisss...


Coincidently.. Raven ended up working on CoD MW3.

[Kathy]

Tetsuo, on 19 August 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

I was just about to lay down when I realized Singularity has at least one level that is the closest to being a literal representation of the "2010" example in that pic that I have personally played.

The closest of being a literal representation is the first chapter of Final Fantasy XIII.

[rasmus thorup]

Final fantasy 13 chapter 1-10 = crappy game, chapter 11-13 = game of the year.

[Tetsuo]

But then again, FF XIII is not a FPS now is it?

[necroslut]

fuegerstef, on 18 August 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

ROTT 2012 Patch v1.1 Changelist
...- Two weapon system introduced for the modern gamer

Wasn't rott the first FPS with what could be considered a "two weapon limit" though? The pistols/machinegun was pretty much the same thing, and you could only carry one "special" weapon.

[Sangman]

fuegerstef, on 18 August 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

ROTT 2012 Patch v1.1 Changelist

- AI removed due to complaints about difficulty
- Traps removed due to complaints about difficulty
- Two weapon system introduced for the modern gamer
- Regenerating health introduced for the modern gamer
- Numerous bug fixes/weapon balancing (flamewall no longer kills people, just burns them)
- Gibs removed due to PMSing soccer moms in the USA


https://www.facebook...377102599028733

A patch? Was this game released without me knowing or something?

[Come On And Slam]

Tetsuo, on 19 August 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

They probably are but I was having a hard time finding any map overviews for the single player maps. Has anyone done any? I don't have any CoD games installed right now so I did a google search for a map overview for it (it being the series.. a good actual representative of typical level design in it).

It wouldn't matter what the map looked like in CoD, since if you even DARE to deviate from the straight line that they give you, you'll get blown up by super enemies with increased health that respawn, and your health won't regenerate . And usually any areas that aren't immediately important to the mission are blocked off by chest-high rubble that is somehow acting as a giant wall...

And the map design for MW3's multiplayer was the worst maps I've ever played in an FPS on Multiplayer, even the long-time fans of the game agree.

[Fox]

rasmus thorup, on 19 August 2012 - 02:18 AM, said:

Then why did you upvote it?

Because I liked what he wrote? But I guess I can vote up or down anything I want, and it's not relevant.

[rasmus thorup]

Sorry, didn't know that i wasn't allowed to ask a question.

[Fox]

Sorry, I didn't to be mean. I just don't think the vote system matters.

[Kathy]

http://forums.duke4....ch-a-good-idea/

[Fox]

I don't think it's particulary bad, I find the posts from some users great and I like to give something in return.

And it amuses me how it bothers some people, I always felt it was something trivial.

[Kathy]

If it wasn't clear, I just suggested to continue rep talk in the thread above, but not here.

[----]

Sangman, on 19 August 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

A patch? Was this game released without me knowing or something?

Can't tell if you are serious or not.

[Spirrwell]

fuegerstef, on 19 August 2012 - 05:39 AM, said:

Can't tell if you are serious or not.

I hope not, the last "change" gives it away if it wasn't obvious already.

[Fox]

Not everyone may realize that changelist is a joke. I didn't look at with attention at first too.

[Sangman]

fuegerstef, on 19 August 2012 - 05:39 AM, said:

Can't tell if you are serious or not.

Oh they're joking about something they might have to do in the future. Right. I thought they were incorrectly referring to actual changes made in the development of the game as "patches". Mea culpa.

[Tetsuo]

necroslut, on 19 August 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

Wasn't rott the first FPS with what could be considered a "two weapon limit" though? The pistols/machinegun was pretty much the same thing, and you could only carry one "special" weapon.

Yes it was, and in fact I have long since used the right mouse button as a toggle between the last equipped bullet weapon and currently equipped explosive weapon (rocket launcher).... and each bullet weapon was an upgrade from the last so once I got the dual pistols I never used the single any more and once I got the MP40 I never used the dual pistols. So most of the time I toggle between the explosive weapon and the MP40 or Dual Pistols if I haven't found an MP40 yet.

There are really three weapons to your arsenal when you think about it though. Pistols (1 or 2.. it could have been mapped to one key so you toggle between holding one or two) the MP40 and an explosive weapon.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

I think it's worth pointing out that I thought the two-weapon limit was one of RoTT's biggest downsides to an otherwise solid FPS, as it induced a lot of unnecessary backtracking to, for instance, pick up the loaded firebomb you left behind in the secret room at the beginning of the map when you're about to head through the exit.

And anyone who's played through the entire game knows that some of the maps are absolutely GOLIATH in size.

[OpenMaw]

Achenar, on 15 August 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Insert obligatory derisive comment about Fresch's hair here.

I think the hair speaks for itself.

Literally.