[Paul B]

Gambini, on 14 January 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

But i don´t think it is a good broadcast for TROR. : Check your scales when mapping, most doors was about the same width than height and that´s not right. Real doors are usually 0.80 x 2 meters but it is granted to make them equally bigger in games to allow players get by freely.

Hi Gambini, thanks for trying out our map. I don't agree with your comments... I think the use of TROR in this map does an awesome job of showing the many different applications of TROR a person can implement without going overboard and Micky has applied these TROR techniques very well. As far as scale is concerned I'm very pleased with the size of the doors and whatever else. This isn't a blue print for a real life environment. If you want scale and realism you're using the wrong editor. The physics of the Duke Nukem character don't even permit the game to be created to scale and by doing this it just causes huge problems for the player experience.

Things have to be exaggerated in Duke so they don't compromise the flow and game play. While no offence to Loke, but Loke's map may have been scaled for realism it was terrible to move around in and most notably in the first few areas which adversely affected the fun factor of the map. In fact I had a tough time playing it to the end because of this. These types of maps are designed more to walk around in with God mode just to appreciate the time and effort that went into the detailing the map but completely not practical for a run and gun game.

There are a few of these types of maps out there and while they get rated really well my buddies and I definitely avoid playing them. We definitely don't want to be tripping and getting stuck on every little detail while being shot at, that gets annoying really fast. If you’re going to take the time to add that much detail into a map why put annoying enemies in to detract from the map? Leave the map empty so the player can walk around and actually appreciate the level of detail & work that has gone into the design rather than having to put up with pesky things shooting at you.

Our goal with Parkade wasn't to make an artistically crafted & scaled masterpiece. Our objective was to not compromise game play and fun while demonstrating the use of TROR in as many ways as we could. We created this map as an appreciation for this new Mapster feature which adds an element to Duke that’s been absent since day 1. I certainly don’t play Duke Nukem for its graphics, art & scale. What brings people back to Duke is the sheer fun of running and gunning and now having the freedom to explorer room over room adding more diversity and angles for combat.

This level was also designed with Multi-player in mind and I believe it will make one heck of an exciting multi-player map once that feature is available.

When I play Duke Nukem I have the auto run feature permanently on. Therefore, if things aren't exaggerated the player has no reaction time to counter the sheer speed of Duke's sprint. Not to mention using steroids ontop of all that. If you can't control the player because things are designed too small i'm sorry the map just isn't a fun map and while I might try it once, i certainly won't play the map twice. But to each their own.

[Gambini]

I think you are offending a lot of people saying that most detailed maps are only to walk around in god mode. In fact, most of my favorite maps (which play a lot better than this map and have a better flow too) are very detailed and have realistic scales. So, like Mikko said some posts ago there is not a tradeoff between design and gameplay and so goes for the scale.
You´re coming with the hassle of size vs gameplay like if i didn´t do maps for 16 years.

About the use of TROR. You can argue with everybody and give rounds to every point they make until you seem to be right but their opinion about the map won´t change. I used Loke´s map as an example of what can be done with TROR and not how a map should be. It´s cramped like hell and damn too short but still makes better use of TROR, creating things that look in a way that without the feature would not look half good. Unlike this map where most times I saw the effect I didn´t get impressed.

I hope you don´t get offence by this, it´s my objetive opinion and nothing else.

[Mikko]

Paul B, on 15 January 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

As far as scale is concerned I'm very pleased with the size of the doors and whatever else. This isn't a blue print for a real life environment. If you want scale and realism you're using the wrong editor. The physics of the Duke Nukem character don't even permit the game to be created to scale and by doing this it just causes huge problems for the player experience.

Things have to be exaggerated in Duke so they don't compromise the flow and game play. While no offence to Loke, but Loke's map may have been scaled for realism it was terrible to move around in and most notably in the first few areas which adversely affected the fun factor of the map.

Gambini didn't criticize the size of things per se but rather the aspect ratio. So, you can make things bigger to allow freer player movements but you should keep the ratio constant so as to ensure that the environment doesn't look like some fantasy world.

[Paul B]

Mikko_Sandt, on 15 January 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

Gambini didn't criticize the size of things per se but rather the aspect ratio. So, you can make things bigger to allow freer player movements but you should keep the ratio constant so as to ensure that the environment doesn't look like some fantasy world.

Good point Mikko, I missed that. Of course coming from a professional graphic designer he would definitely have a keen eye for that sort of thing. I definitely wasn't trying to offend any one with my last post. I was just commenting on the types of maps I play with my buddies. Please take what I said with a grain of salt and if I have offended any one I am truely sorry it wasn't my intention. Don't get me wrong I have a huge appreciation for Loke's talent, creativity and design. It is very inspiring and it was a solid map.

Also, I would like to thank TX for showcasing our map on the Duke4.net mainpage. For some reason that webpage wasn't displaying properly for me before but now its loading and I can actually read the review! Much appreciated, Thank you! =)

Looking back on this map it's amazing how fast we were able to pump this out from start to finish..I believe the map was initially started Nov 18th 2011 and completed by Jan. 5th 2012. That's making some progress considering my last map was 8 months in the making. I'm already getting an itch to make another map! But i'm starting to have an appreciation for smaller maps which aren't as big but give the feeling that they are big without being confusing.

I think 30 minutes to play a single map is pushing it. I think if I can cut the play time in half for my next map it still can be just as good. I'm a city mapper not a space mapper so i'll be keeping to the urban theme.

[Paul B]

Hi Mikko,

I'm very curious with the latest EDuke if you are able to play the Parkade map with better frame rates without the hesitation using polymer on your computer?

[Loke]

Tried the latest version. Still getting terrible performance outside (~5-15 FPS) while indoors it's occasionally quite playable (~15-80 FPS) but still far from optimal.

[Mikko]

I tried it and the latest version seems to have removed those fps spikes you'd get upon entering a new room but that doesn't improve the overall fps. Whenever I'm looking in the direction of the central building, my fps is below 10.

[Helixhorned]

Yes, it's the spikes that r2256 eliminated, the FPS should stay roughly the same. Plagman was right btw, it was drawing the outside view...

Mikko, is this figure only for the bare bones settings or with something more advanced like lighting enabled?

Paul, if you're really getting 350 FPS as a representative (e.g. mean) figure, then I'd say that you've got a way overpowered computer compared to pretty much everyone else. One way to roughly simulate how a map feels on lower-end PCs would be playing it using the debugging build (edit: although... it still might need some slowdown. That's very possible to achieve, though, and as a benefit, you even get more crashes. Can we have clang on the synthesis machines, Plagman?).

[Mikko]

Normal Polymer lighting enabled.

[The Commander]

@Helix

Software mode = Fast FPS 1000 etc
Polymost = Shit 5 - 15
Polymer = Shit 5 - 15
All around the start/central building area.

I tested that using 1024x768 on each mode with Rev 2262 with the debug build.
Win XP SP3
4GB Ram
ATI 5750 1GB

Next time I am Win 7 partition ill test it again, but I would imagine the same outcome as Mikko is running Win 7.

[rasmus thorup]

What do i need to play tror maps. I have the latest eduke. I splat everytime i start the map.

[Hendricks266]

rasmus thorup, on 16 January 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

I splat everytime i start the map.

splat?

[rasmus thorup]

Hendricks266, on 16 January 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

splat?

squish. probably void space.

[The Commander]

Sounds like to me that you dont have the latest if thats the case.
Remember, the download on www.eduke32.com IS NOT the latest version. It is a version from March 19 2011

http://dukeworld.duk...ke32_latest.zip

Or you have some weird CON's in your directory.

[rasmus thorup]

Thanks a lot The Commander. I downloaded my version from eduke32.com which i thought was the newest.

The map is okay. There were some lacking parts but the tror made up for it 100%. I also found a few objects here and there that didn't have correct size. I didn't lag too much without polymer, but with HRP. Gameplay was a bit of a mess. And probably because of tror i found some bugs. 7/10

[Micky C]

About the gameplay, I'm not sure if I already mentioned it, but I implemented it right after I finished Serious Sam 3, so I wanted the gameplay to be moderately chaotic, with a fairly constant stream of enemies, and times when you're attacked from all sides. In hindsight, I'm not so sure if that was a good idea, but it's not such a bad thing, and those who like chaotic gameplay will enjoy the map even more.

[Paul B]

Micky C, on 16 January 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

About the gameplay, I'm not sure if I already mentioned it, but I implemented it right after I finished Serious Sam 3, so I wanted the gameplay to be moderately chaotic, with a fairly constant stream of enemies, and times when you're attacked from all sides. In hindsight, I'm not so sure if that was a good idea, but it's not such a bad thing, and those who like chaotic gameplay will enjoy the map even more.

I think you did a terrific job with the enemy placement. It keeps the player on his toes. I wouldn't change a thing in that department. I like the way it plays its challenging from start to finish and theres adequate ammo for each weapon which doesn't deter from the gameplay at all. I think you did a hell of a great job!

I know people are probably wondering what the hell I actually contributed to this map... not a lot! Micky can map circles around me! =) My contribution was adding a couple atomic healths on the map with LOTS OF RPG AMMO! And this map does have a Serious Sam feel to it. =) I like it!

Helixhorned said:

Paul, if you're really getting 350 FPS as a representative (e.g. mean) figure, then I'd say that you've got a way overpowered computer compared to pretty much everyone else.

Actually, my computer is about 3 years old already. I don't run EDuke in Windows 7 Pro 32bit because I found it to take too much of a performance hit and it was very unstable in Windows 7. So I created a separate dual boot of XP Pro SP3 that i'm running specifically for EDUKE on this same machine and it works great. yey for MS downgrade rights.
My processor is an Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 @ 3.16ghz
Video card is an Nvidia GTX460
Hard-drive is an SSD OCZ Vertex2
With 4GB of Ram.

My frame rate varies in Parkade.map depending on where I am standing but it bounces around using Polymer anywhere from 600+ FPS to 30 FPS when i'm at the furthest corner of the map over looking the entire parkade in both directions. That seems to have the biggest performance hit on my PC but I don't normally stand in that corner anyway and at 30fps it is still very playable.

[Micky C]

Come on Paul, you did the Parkade, the south building, and at least half of the west building. There, now everybody knows
And of course a bit of work on the east and north buildings. Damn I wish we had more walls to use with the north building, it was the last one made and hence the lightest in details

[Paul B]

Micky C, on 16 January 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

Come on Paul, you did the Parkade, the south building, and at least half of the west building. There, now everybody knows

Oh yea I think I did some texture alignment in the East building .. I forgot about that. That East building is your work from the ground up buddy don't sell yourself short. That was your creation and its obvious and you helped me with the South building a lot more than I ever did your East building.

Anyway as I've been looking at the map I noticed I forgot to add a multi-player switch for that door in the West building by the washrooms. I have also added a Duke sound to the start of the map so when Duke Lands on the ground he says damn those alien bastards are gonna pay for shooting up my ride again...It was the same tag that was used in Episode 3 the movieset map. I meant to do that in the final release but totally slipped my mind. Minor details.

[The Commander]

You guys really cant take critism that well I have noticed so far.

[Paul B]

The Commander, on 16 January 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

You guys really cant take critism that well I have noticed so far.

I beg to differ =)

[rasmus thorup]

hey, 7/10 is good. I try to set the scores lower than other people would, because if i didn't, most maps would get 10/10 from me which i think is wrong. The TROR setup was amazing

[Paul B]

I'm really narrow-minded when it comes to a map rating. Personnally when I play a map and if I like the way it plays and it has a clean look I give it a great score. Very much like SuperTankers Map he just released. In my opinion that's a 10/10 both aesthetically and gameplay wise. But I'm not overly picky with the details that some people are, which to me don't really add that much to the overall game anyway. People play duke for the style of game it is, not for how “pretty” the walls look. However, it is definitely good to keep up with the times too and that is where Polymer comes in and that’s definitely easy on the eyes.

[rasmus thorup]

Supertankers map had flaws, which is why i gave it 9/10 which might be a bit high. I need to have the feeling that a map just can't get any better before i give it 10/10. Gameplay wise his map is 10/10, which is why i didn't give it 8/10. What i care most about in maps is gameplay.
But really, don't look too much into map rating. The fact that you get a map rating means that people are willing to play your map.

[Paul B]

rasmus thorup, on 17 January 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

hey, 7/10 is good. I try to set the scores lower than other people would, because if i didn't, most maps would get 10/10 from me which i think is wrong. The TROR setup was amazing

Rasmus throwup, I have been intentionally trying to ignore your rating toward our map because quite frankly I strongly disagree with your rating system! In fact I think it sucks! And now I can't sleep at night knowing that you think our parkade map is only a 7 out of 10 when really it should be a 10 out of 7! This is very troubling considering the amount of time we spent detailing and trying to make this map rock. Man... to low ball us like you did... is like a slap in the face, even after we've already received a rating of 9.3/10. 7 /10 is an "average" rating and this map is more than just average man. All I have to say is know your place man! Know your place. I'll most likely be making another map and you better like it... a lot! Or we'll be taking this to the ring! =P

[rasmus thorup]

"I try to set the scores lower than other people would, because if i didn't, most maps would get 10/10 from me which i think is wrong."

Don't you understand this?

[Micky C]

Lol, can't you tell he's only joking?

[rasmus thorup]

oh really? lol xD I seriously didn't see that.

[LeoD]

I'd rate it 9/100 which is good because no one scored more then 10 yet.

[Paul B]

rasmus thorup, on 20 January 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

"I try to set the scores lower than other people would, because if i didn't, most maps would get 10/10 from me which i think is wrong."

Don't you understand this?

Haha! Yea... Micky's worked with me long enough to pick up on my warped sense of humour. I was in a goofy mood, what can I say, and I needed the laugh. And LeoD you're just way too darn nice and I'm glad to see you had fun with it.

I am just happy that there are still die hard Duke 3D fans out there who still play the custom user maps that we post and not only play them but comment and keep the community alive because its these people who take the time to play these custom maps that's keeping the heart in the community and keeping Duke3D alive. If we didn't have people like you guys playing these maps there would be no point to making them.

So thank you for your support whether you think highly of our maps or not. At least you take the time to play them and as always it’s very much appreciated.

Have fun!