[Mikko]

Paul B, on 08 January 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

We've played enough Duke Nukem maps to know what constitutes a great map, thanks to the original 3D Realms Mappers. Most people when they build a custom map they create them from an architectural design stand point and completely forget what makes Duke Nukem so much fun to play. While maps might look nice with all the proper trimming and texturing the fun factor and the game play just isn't there, making them forgettable with no replay value.

This is simply not true. Some architecturally impressive maps are quite dull in terms of gameplay (BobSP1) but most are good or even excellent. There's no tradeoff between design and gameplay. You used the original maps as an example but obviously all of them would have been better if they had used twice the amount of details they now have.

[Micky C]

Paul B, on 08 January 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

I believe Parkade.map is far beyond my RCPD.map which rated a 94/100 at DN Repository and I believe that was a pretty generous rating considering what is already out there. I would like to thanks Micky for working with me on this map and for his clever implementation and vision of TROR. Which I believe makes this map one of a kind by demonstrating all different possibilities that can be achieved by using the latest version of the Mapster build engine and not compromising the fun of running around and blowing things up.

I hate to say it Paul, but I think RCPD finale was more detailed than this map. But I almost wish I hadn't worked on the map for the sole purpose of being able to step back and compare the two objectively, and with fresh eyes.

[Forge]

Paul B, on 08 January 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

We've played enough Duke Nukem maps to know what constitutes a great map, thanks to the original 3D Realms Mappers. Most people when they build a custom map they create them from an architectural design stand point and completely forget what makes Duke Nukem so much fun to play. While maps might look nice with all the proper trimming and texturing the fun factor and the game play just isn't there, making them forgettable with no replay value.

I believe Parkade.map is far beyond my RCPD.map which rated a 94/100 at DN Repository...etc...

If anything should be a hindrance to the rating of this map it would have to be the lack of direction ...etc

*yawn*

old maps also had old limits on a rather temperamental Build program.

I glad you're proud of your work and think it's the best thing out there, but no bonus points to the score for taking advantage of a new gimmick. There are sure to be more maps that extensively use tror released in the future, so no bonus points for being unique. The map should be rated for what it is; a non-linear city map, and receiving a score based on overall design, game play, and aesthetics just like any other map.

[Paul B]

Mikko_Sandt, on 08 January 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

This is simply not true. Some architecturally impressive maps are quite dull in terms of gameplay (BobSP1) but most are good or even excellent. There's no tradeoff between design and gameplay. You used the original maps as an example but obviously all of them would have been better if they had used twice the amount of details they now have.

Thank you Mikko for making my point.....

Getting back to the original DN3D maps they were made optimally and efficiently . They only did what they had to and by doing so made all the maps work well on a wide variety of systems without compromising performance and cluttering the map with unnecessary sprites. I don't feel the original maps were lacking in any detail and there was enough detail to create a fun environment without going overboard. A good artist needs to know when to put the brush down and they did just that consistently. To this day I still consider the original maps of the game to be of great quality in design & game play and I'm still trying to make a map as memorable as Hotel Hell, La Rumble, E1L1, E1L2. There are something about those maps that while simple in design they have a certain replay value that doesn't wear thin while maintaining a visually pleasing atmosphere.

[Paul B]

Forge, on 08 January 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

I glad you're proud of your work and think it's the best thing out there, but no bonus points to the score for taking advantage of a new gimmick. There are sure to be more maps that extensively use tror released in the future, so no bonus points for being unique. The map should be rated for what it is; a non-linear city map, and receiving a score based on overall design, game play, and aesthetics just like any other map.

Darn it forge I was shooting for a 110 out of 100. Shesh way to stomp on our parkade! haha

[Paul B]

Micky C, on 08 January 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

I hate to say it Paul, but I think RCPD finale was more detailed than this map. But I almost wish I hadn't worked on the map for the sole purpose of being able to step back and compare the two objectively, and with fresh eyes.

Micky my favorite parts of the parkade map are the area's you created! You really did one hell of a job with this map and i'm just thankful i can put my name beside it as well.

[Micky C]

Forge, on 08 January 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

*yawn*

old maps also had old limits on a rather temperamental Build program.

I glad you're proud of your work and think it's the best thing out there, but no bonus points to the score for taking advantage of a new gimmick. There are sure to be more maps that extensively use tror released in the future, so no bonus points for being unique. The map should be rated for what it is; a non-linear city map, and receiving a score based on overall design, game play, and aesthetics just like any other map.

I don't know why you called it a gimmick. I set out to make large scale practical use of the feature, that's what's been done, and several people's comments in this thread have confirmed it. I'm not asking for 'bonus points' as you put it, but it's hard to deny that this is a pioneering map. There will most likely be maps in the future that make even more effective use of TROR, both aesthetically and for layout, but at this point in time, there are no maps which even come close to the size of this map, and the complex, large scale use of TROR. I'm not saying it's the most detailed, the most fun or even the very first, but I maintain that it is a pioneering map with respect to TROR.

Paul B, on 08 January 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Thank you Mikko for making my point.....

Getting back to the original DN3D maps they were made optimally and efficiently . They only did what they had to and by doing so made all the maps work well on a wide variety of systems without compromising performance and cluttering the map with unnecessary sprites. I don't feel the original maps were lacking in any detail and there was enough detail to create a fun environment without going overboard. A good artist needs to know when to put the brush down and they did just that consistently. To this day I still consider the original maps of the game to be of great quality in design & game play and I'm still trying to make a map as memorable as Hotel Hell, La Rumble, E1L1, E1L2. There are something about those maps that while simple in design they have a certain replay value that doesn't wear thin while maintaining a visually pleasing atmosphere.

Actually, if you look at an early plan for e1l1, it was a fair amount larger and more complex. They cut it down to help with performance and framerate.

[Paul B]

Hi guys,

Here is the final version of Parkade.map with all the updates that will ever happen to this map.

I hope you enjoy the map now that we've had an opportunity to fix some of the complaints.

Most importantly, We hope Helix has fun playing it too as this map is dedicated to him for all his hard work making stuff like this possible for us to enjoy! =)

Thanks,
Paul & Micky

P.S This map has been updated again. See my original post in the forum thread for the download link.

[Paul B]

Gosh... after just finishing Cherenkov Station by Supertanker I realize that if any one of my maps scores over 75 /100 i'll be happy. I just know i'm going to be dreaming about Cherenkov Station now! dang, that was a super cool space map and it just put a damper on the Parkade.

[Supertanker]

Whatever you do, don't get discouraged!

I've been tinkering with BUILD since I was about ten. I've had a good year or two to work on Cherenkov Station but it took about five years of experience in making mediocre maps. Wanna see? Go check out the Duke Repository map listings and browse my old maps; everything before FOS Station and Area 27. (But even the mediocre maps came after about five years of tinkering--some of my early scraps of levels are truly bad.) I didn't think Cherenkov was that great; the reviews have really surprised me. I had given up on trying to make an "everything" map--a really detailed extraordinarily designed map like those that Gambini tends to make nowadays--after getting discouraged at maps like Blown Fuses, and from then on I just started focusing on putting Duke back in his vanilla roots and trying to polish everything as much as I could.

I actually started doing the same thing you did with RCPD--making a map to test all the BUILD effects, but I never made it into a coherent map. It's always practice, practice, practice, pushing yourself, stretching yourself. After awhile it's less of a "what can I do to outdo my last map" and more of a "Well, I just want to have fun--what happens if I do this?" By that time (and you're nearing there, if you're not there already; I honestly can't judge a mapper's abilities worth beans but I think you're very close) you have the experience behind you that frees you to do whatever the heck you want, especially if you can also free yourself from worrying about what other people think.

When I fired up Parkade I knew it was going to be TROR-laden but I was still shocked when I saw the fire truck, the car, the parkade. What really sold it to me was the ledge with the glass windows in it. I saw that and thought, "No way! I just stepped into GoldSrc!" (My other favorite game engine.) I mean, *maybe* the ledges at the EDF base could've been faked with exceptional spritework. *Maybe.* But details like the skybridge with the hole in it amazed me.

What I really liked, though, were the "classical" elements of the map. The design of the rooms; the details like the posters and the signs; and especially the sector-based lighting when it existed. (I know--wall trouble. Curse you, wall count!!) The different sections flowed smoothly into one another; there weren't any disjointed sections. It's not a perfect map, just like Cherenkov isn't a perfect map and It Lives isn't a perfect map and Deadfall isn't a perfect map and all of the Last Reaction & Water Bases maps aren't perfect maps (sorry, Mikko!). But Parkade is an enjoyable map, and as a fellow mapper I can appreciate the effort you both put into it.

I haven't played the final yet, mind you; downloading on dialup is slooooow. I'm basing my comments off the version I beta tested.

So, now that I've said that...

Why IS there napalm in the office?

[Forge]

Micky C, on 08 January 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

I don't know why you called it a gimmick. I set out to make large scale practical use of the feature, that's what's been done, and several people's comments in this thread have confirmed it. I'm not asking for 'bonus points' as you put it, but it's hard to deny that this is a pioneering map. ....

you missed the point. I was addressing Paul and his opinion that this map should have a higher rating his RCPD map based sole on replay value and "...clever implementation and vision of TROR. Which I believe makes this map one of a kind..."
Implying that everything else that is normally considered when looking at a map should be disregarded.

[Mikko]

Paul B, on 08 January 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Getting back to the original DN3D maps they were made optimally and efficiently . They only did what they had to and by doing so made all the maps work well on a wide variety of systems without compromising performance and cluttering the map with unnecessary sprites. I don't feel the original maps were lacking in any detail and there was enough detail to create a fun environment without going overboard. A good artist needs to know when to put the brush down and they did just that consistently. To this day I still consider the original maps of the game to be of great quality in design & game play and I'm still trying to make a map as memorable as Hotel Hell, La Rumble, E1L1, E1L2. There are something about those maps that while simple in design they have a certain replay value that doesn't wear thin while maintaining a visually pleasing atmosphere.

The only reason why we value these maps so high is because of nostalgy. There's no objective reason why Hotel Hell should be considered better than, say, Roch 6.

Edit: Funnily your own map sacrifices performance (and as such, gameplay) for the sake of better visuals by a much larger degree than any über-detailed map ever has (with the exception of Duke Eternity).

[Paul B]

Mikko_Sandt, on 09 January 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

The only reason why we value these maps so high is because of nostalgy. There's no objective reason why Hotel Hell should be considered better than, say, Roch 6.

Edit: Funnily your own map sacrifices performance (and as such, gameplay) for the sake of better visuals by a much larger degree than any über-detailed map ever has (with the exception of Duke Eternity).

Mikko, Thanks for taking the time to review our map, I'm sorry it wasn't completely playable on your computer with polymer. I didn't realize when making this map with Polymer it would cause so many problems on PC's using something other than an Nvidia card. However you were still very positive about the map and we appreciate that! Thank you as well for hosting it on your site. It is very much appreciated!

Take care and i'm looking forward to playing your upcoming map =)

Paul

[Micky C]

Mikko_Sandt, on 09 January 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

The only reason why we value these maps so high is because of nostalgy. There's no objective reason why Hotel Hell should be considered better than, say, Roch 6.

Edit: Funnily your own map sacrifices performance (and as such, gameplay) for the sake of better visuals by a much larger degree than any über-detailed map ever has (with the exception of Duke Eternity).

Thanks for the review and hosting Mikko, it's greatly appreciated. I replaced the download in my first post with a link to Puritan's site because I don't know how to link to a page on your site since it always shows the same URL there.

We did try our best to improve performance by removing as many polymer lights as we could and having windows initially closed when the map is started. However most of the problems come from the map's size and the hardcoded lights like fires, green canisters and weapons fire. There is a slight improvement if the console command r_pr_lighting is used (set to 0 for no lights, and 1 for lights.)

I hope to revisit the map after polymer is optimized and give it a full polymer makeover.

[Mikko]

Micky C, on 09 January 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

I don't know how to link to a page on your site since it always shows the same URL there.

Yeah, this is because I use old-fashioned HTML frames. I should have gotten rid of them years ago. To get individual links simply highlight the link you want and copy it.

[Forge]

Micky C, on 09 January 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

Thanks for the review and hosting Mikko, it's greatly appreciated. I replaced the download in my first post with a link to Puritan's site because I don't know how to link to a page on your site since it always shows the same URL there.

http://msdn.duke4.net/hotparkade.shtml

[Micky C]

Alright, both links are now in the original post, so people have the option of reading both reviews.

[Mikko]

Btw, one thing I never quite figured out is how you're supposed to get that red key that's lying on a table? The first time I played the map I glitch-jumped through one of those two windows near it and the second time I managed to hit the switch by hugging the wall adjacent to the locked door.

[Paul B]

Mikko_Sandt, on 09 January 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Btw, one thing I never quite figured out is how you're supposed to get that red key that's lying on a table? The first time I played the map I glitch-jumped through one of those two windows near it and the second time I managed to hit the switch by hugging the wall adjacent to the locked door.

Gosh Mikko you know all the right things to say to drive me up the wall! LOL! First off you're not suppose to glitch to get that red key card. Secondly you are not suppose to be able to reach that switch through the locked door. If that is the case that's a pretty big glitch. What is suppose to happen is you're suppose to open the closet door in the bedroom above which requires a blue keycard. In the closet you'll find pipe bombs and a message that says the bed is laced with TNT. Drop a pipe bomb on the bed to blow up the bed and lower yourself down into that room where the red key card is.

Gosh that's one of the most impressive effects in the game compliments of Micky. I'm sorry you had to miss that entirely but I guess persistence pays off haha!

[Paul B]

Even though getting the Red key card was suppose to be a linear approach I see Mikko prefers finding his own non linear ways of doing things. Therefore this map has once again been changed to prevent Mikko from cheating when trying to get the red key card from the East building. Shame on you! =) But thanks! I would never have found that! The Red Key card is now a linear approach again. HAHA!

Latest map file: http://forums.duke4....&attach_id=5172

[Micky C]

Mikko didn't do the bed thing? Now I'm really glad he didn't give it a score! That had never been done before, and so would have required the player to give it an extra few seconds of thinking rather than "ooo a crack; I'll blow it up". And when the player finally does use explosives on the bed, the room transforms from a pretty darn ordinary bedroom into a room with a massive gaping hole in the floor where the bed used to be, all without the use of sprites (except to hide the visual glitches). Btw Paul the bed wasn't laced with dynamite, the message was innuendo.

[Paul B]

Micky C, on 09 January 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Mikko didn't do the bed thing? Now I'm really glad he didn't give it a score! That had never been done before, and so would have required the player to give it an extra few seconds of thinking rather than "ooo a crack; I'll blow it up". And when the player finally does use explosives on the bed, the room transforms from a pretty darn ordinary bedroom into a room with a massive gaping hole in the floor where the bed used to be, all without the use of sprites (except to hide the visual glitches). Btw Paul the bed wasn't laced with dynamite, the message was innuendo.

well it blows up like it is laced with dynamite.

[Danukem]

I tried playing this just now, using Polymer (but no HRP). I hadn't played earlier versions, and the design seemed decent enough. I didn't get to see any TROR (or if there was I didn't notice it) because I was too busy being killed due to horrible framerate and hitches. Maybe I'll try again when I'm in a better mood, but right now my feeling is that Polymer in its current unoptimized state is not worth using on my computer.

[Paul B]

DeeperThought, on 09 January 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

I tried playing this just now, using Polymer (but no HRP). I hadn't played earlier versions, and the design seemed decent enough. I didn't get to see any TROR (or if there was I didn't notice it) because I was too busy being killed due to horrible framerate and hitches. Maybe I'll try again when I'm in a better mood, but right now my feeling is that Polymer in its current unoptimized state is not worth using on my computer.

Hi DeeperThought,

Sorry to hear the map runs slow for you. Hopefully down the road the optimizations will help this map out. For now try running it in software mode. Hopefully that will help.

[Micky C]

In the past slowdowns and lag in polymer was mostly confined to maps which made heavy use of the lighting effects such as DNE, and it's somewhat unsettling that maps such as this which hardly use any polymer lighting are subject to near-unplayable framerates on many computers. Hopefully the polymer optimisation will happen before the end of this year. It's such a shame to have such a powerful renderer but to be allowed to use it to anywhere near its full potential.

[Danukem]

Micky C, on 09 January 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

In the past slowdowns and lag in polymer was mostly confined to maps which made heavy use of the lighting effects such as DNE, and it's somewhat unsettling that maps such as this which hardly use any polymer lighting are subject to near-unplayable framerates on many computers. Hopefully the polymer optimisation will happen before the end of this year. It's such a shame to have such a powerful renderer but to be allowed to use it to anywhere near its full potential.

TROR or anything with an equivalent functionality works by using multiple rendering passes. So if a scene is rendering at 60fps, adding a TROR portal to that scene could potentially cut the fps in half (at least, that's my understanding). So it's not that Polymer has gotten any less optimized, it's just that new features such as TROR have been added to it, which when utilized bring the fps down even lower. Wide open maps where a lot of surfaces and nested sectors have to get rendered at the same time are also something that Polymer has struggled with from day 1. If you make an open map like that with TROR, you are just asking for trouble.

And yes, I too hope that Polymer gets overhauled soon.

That's not to say that Polymer can't be used to great effect in its current form, though. A map with relatively simple geometry can look good with proper lighting and the right textures. And you can actually add quite a few models without bringing down fps very much.

[Micky C]

Polymer doesn't render TROR in multiple passes, it renders everything in a single pass. I don't think it's capable of rendering multiple passes of anything, which is why it doesn't allow more than one skybox and why the show view command doesn't work. I'm sure about the TROR bit, but correct me if I'm wrong about the other stuff.

[Danukem]

Micky C, on 09 January 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Polymer doesn't render TROR in multiple passes, it renders everything in a single pass. I don't think it's capable of rendering multiple passes of anything, which is why it doesn't allow more than one skybox and why the show view command doesn't work. I'm sure about the TROR bit, but correct me if I'm wrong about the other stuff.

Helixhorned said in his first post when he introduced it that TROR worked in software by using multiple passes and that it didn't work in Polymer. So I inferred from that, mistakenly I guess, that TROR required multiple passes and that Polymer would support it when it had that capability. But however it is done, using TROR clearly is going to require more rendering resources than without TROR.

[Supertanker]

That would make sense for the software renderer. Tinkering in the source code I noticed that it has (or had) two passes anyway: one for geometry and one for masked objects (?). So to render TROR stuff would take several "draws" over the screen.

From what I understand of polymer, however, the map is combined into one giant mesh first--once, at game load--and then renders it all in one go per frame. I think, anyway. You can see this if you noclip past a wall--you can see the rest of the level and the game goes SLOW. Polymost and classic won't let you do this (results in HOM).

[Micky C]

If there were any extra resources required to render TROR, I don't believe that the difference in framerate would be that much different from a similarly sized area with a similar amount of detail. Although it's much easier to pack more detail into the same space with TROR, which would indirectly contribute to slowdowns.