[Danukem]

Gambini, on 13 March 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

I hope nobody utilizes events from my past to shut me up. But the only thing that would be acceptable for a map´s update is bugfixing/general cleanup.

This about changing a map after almost every negative critism is pretty ridiculous if you ask me. It´s like a movie director standing in the exit door of a cinema listening to what people gossip, then going to modify the movie to please that people. And, of course repeating the procedule about every time the movie is being saw again.

I notice that you downvoted me simply because I gave an honest answer to rasmus' question and summarized Paul B's stated position (I thought maybe rasmus had not understood Paul B's post, so I gave a short summary).

Anyway, there are some obvious disadvantages to continually updating a released map. The main one being that people may hesitate to play releases from that author in the future until the map has been out for a long time and the author is done updating it. Another disadvantage is that people who did play the map when it was first released may feel cheated, because later versions were better.

However, if Paul B wants to pay that price, then that's his business.

[Hank]

Gambini, on 13 March 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

This about changing a map after almost every negative critism is pretty ridiculous if you ask me. It´s like a movie director standing in the exit door of a cinema listening to what people gossip, then going to modify the movie to please that people. And, of course repeating the procedule about every time the movie is being saw again.

A movie is passive entertainment and a map is an active entertainment. I think your analysis is flawed. No one complains if one gets a better working program, like ZBrush, but we complain if a mapper wants to improve a given map? Frankly, I don't get this, none of it.

[Gambini]

Hank, on 13 March 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

A movie is passive entertainment and a map is an active entertainment. I think your analysis is flawed. No one complains if one gets a better working program, like ZBrush, but we complain if a mapper wants to improve a given map? Frankly, I don't get this, none of it.

Your conclusion is as flawed as my analysis is. A map is like a movie, something that you´re going to play/watch once. if it´s terribly bad then you will probably leave it before the ending. If you like it a lot, you will play/watch it again tomorrow. If you loved it, you will play/watch it a lot of times. Based on that I think that changing key elements of a movie/map is ridiculous. Think of an "update" of Titanic where the blond gaylike guy survives, maybe in a month people complains a lot and then they "update" it again and make Rose marry the rich guy. Instead remasterized versions are welcome like that Starwars re-release of the nineties in which only the sound and the space parts were enhaced. Your analogy with Zbrush is wrong too. A mod like Dukeplus can be updated and enhaced lot of times because, just like Zbrush, people uses it for different purposes (ergo playing different maps, or doing different models). But with a map/movie the experience is only one and what matters is the first impression you get of them.

[Danukem]

^I don't think that Paul B is going to change it THAT much, Gambini. And I seem to remember your last few maps going through a number of revisions, so you risk sounding hypocritical. You could argue that they were mostly bugfix revisions, but that's splitting hairs.

Anyway, some people benefit from having a longer beta testing stage with more beta testers, and Paul B seems to be one of those. The trouble is, it's hard to find testers willing to do that. Usually they will play it only once or maybe twice.

[Mike Norvak]

Gambini, on 13 March 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

what matters is the first impression you get of them.

This

[High Treason]

Is beta testing considered a normal thing for mappers to have done then? I've never had any of my releases beta tested, I just sort of threw them out there, I might get people to test them next time.

[Danukem]

High Treason, on 13 March 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

Is beta testing considered a normal thing for mappers to have done then?

Only if you have friends.

That sounds like a troll reply, but I'm serious. Being known to the community and being on good terms with other Dukers helps a great deal in getting quality beta testing.

[Gambini]

Trooper Dan, on 13 March 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

^I don't think that Paul B is going to change it THAT much, Gambini.

I honestly don´t have the time to read all these huge posts he makes, but overreading them I realize he´s willing to put the map upside down if that´s what people would have expected.

Quote

And I seem to remember your last few maps going through a number of revisions, so you risk sounding hypocritical. You could argue that they were mostly bugfix revisions, but that's splitting hairs.

The only map i have updated several times was Blown Fuses and that´s because I wanted to keep up with your timing, and released it in about a tenth part of the time I usually need with a map to feel comfortable with. Plus, Dukeplus were updated lots of times too and so i had to fix the map for the new features. And don´t take me wrong, I´m just pointing out the reasons.

No one of my other maps have been ever updated (at least not released) except by It Lives which were bugfixed 48 hours after the official release.

Quote

Is beta testing considered a normal thing for mappers to have done then? I've never had any of my releases beta tested, I just sort of threw them out there, I might get people to test them next time.

Betatesting is a great thing as long as you betatest your own work first. Leave to your testers the less possible work to do, so they can focus on those things you missed and not what you omitted.

[Micky C]

I consider beta testing a critical part of the mapping process. If you're an experienced mapper it helps create a polished product. Or if you're starting to map then it can help quite a lot with the learning process.

Also I see improving a map this long after release as benefitting all the players who might play the map in the future, and isn't really about current players at all, since almost all current players that would have played the map would have played it already. Or perhaps those players might choose to play it again in a year or two and get some nice surprises. Of course this would only matter if the map was fairly good, and of course it would be best if the first release was the final version if possible.

[Paul B]

Gosh this topic is hot tonight. I would like to thank Trooper Dan, Hank and Micky for coming to my rescue on this as I have been busy editing the map. Anyway, I'm pretty sure it's ready. The changes were plenty but all very minor. Most of you guys won't even realize changes have been made but what you will notice is the game will have less hiccups and it will play out better with less confusion. There was also way too much ammo and health on this map originally and I've limited the supply by making certain resources only available in Multiplayer mode.

I have reworked the keycard system and removed the dual switch nightmare. I've played through the map 3 times tonight but I will play through it at least 3 more times from different ways just to make sure i've covered all angles. I am also adding missed shading and detail as I go, minor stuff of the sort. Also there were some bugs with respawns of enemies that would get stuck in certain areas. I am trying to fix those as well. I appreciate your patience and your understanding.

Thank you

P.S Just to clarify my position behind the update. For the most part these changes are personal as some people seem to think these changes are a result of other people's opinions and they are in a way. While some advice was new to us we were thankful because it gave us the opportunity to address these unforeseen problems. However, most of the feedback I've been hearing recently are about things I 've already been aware of but never did anything about it during the creation process due to time constraints and uncertainty.

The additional feedback I have received on this map has only encouraged me to fix what was left undone and what has been bothering me since the initial release and obviously some of the negative feedback will not be addressed because we all have our own opinions. But there are some things I can't ignore when I fully agree with the negativity because it has been driving me nuts as well. I like to do things right and not half assed so to speak I will not cut corners just to publish a load of maps. I'll make sure that what I do release has been tested and meets my expectations for a fun Duke map.

In the end its all about Duke!

[Helixhorned]

Don't see what's wrong with perfectionising maps from time to time. Sure, nobody will play all versions, but it might attract new players or those who had missed it or didn't have time the first time around. I for example replayed and completed Norvak's Nightshade Army recently (got stuck with the first release), good stuff!

Gambini, on 13 March 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

No one of my other maps have been ever updated (at least not released) except by It Lives which were bugfixed 48 hours after the official release.

Oh, and I thought that the second release had major changes at the end (I played only the first release), but maybe I've mixed it up with another one. Didn't you say that the ending was greatly improved or something?

[Gambini]

Quote

Oh, and I thought that the second release had major changes at the end (I played only the first release), but maybe I've mixed it up with another one. Didn't you say that the ending was greatly improved or something?

The major changes were related to making the same ending easier and more enjoyable. I had to do that because a lot of people got stuck there, or at least spent more time than supposed. That update was done even before the reviews came out.

I´m sorry we´re again talking about a map of mine in another release´s thread. But then again, DT hinted that I´m also a compulsive updater and that´s not completely true. I don´t mean to offend Paul B with what I say but, if I´m allowed to express my opinion. I´d say he´s going too far with it. Mike Norvak´s case is different, he´s done it only once and after a long time. BTW I didn´t know you played my map till the end, glad to know

[Paul B]

Gambini, on 14 March 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

I´d say he´s going too far with it.

Gambini this map was built in honor of Helixhorned, for his dedication to the Mapster community. I'd be doing myself disservice and every other member in the Eduke community if I didn’t perform the HELL out of this map! Now I’m just about to lay down this map, why don’t you wait for the update before you are too cynical.

[Gambini]

Posts made by people with no signatures that finish their last line in the rightmost side aren´t fully readable. This is for the admins, maybe they can do something.

You say I should wait for the update before I´m too ... (can´t read the last word but im sure it´s a gross insult ) but the true is that I´m not going to play this map again, instead, I´d be pleased to play a new map of you or Micky.

Edit: thanks for the explanation LeoD.

[LeoD]

Gambini, on 14 March 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

I´d say he´s going too far with it.

Paul B, on 14 March 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

why don’t you wait for the update before you are too cynical.

Hm, what's cynical about that?
But I don't think it's bad if mappers revisit their work occasionally to fix bugs, make small improvements or the like. Or fix compatibility problems that may arise with newer EDuke32 or HRP versions. I won't play newer versions at once, but it feels good to have an updated version on my disk. There aren't many new maps to deal with over the year what makes it likely that they are replayed sometimes.

Gambini, on 14 March 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

Posts made by people with no signatures that finish their last line in the rightmost side aren´t fully readable. This is for the admins, maybe they can do something.

It depends on the width of your browser window which posts on the current page show that problem. It's already mentioned in the Website Feedback area.

[Paul B]

Okay the map has been updated yet again and hopefully for the very last time: Here is the latest version.

http://forums.duke4....&attach_id=5172

A word of caution, typically any time Duke attempts to recover a key card aliens are alerted. The game play is very dynamic and I have found that changing up the routes will always make the battles fresh & different. You will always come across new experiences as I am still finding cool things that go on while playing it. The AI in this map never plays the same way unless you take the exact same route each time which would be pretty lame and boring.

So have fun and go and explore! Long live non linear maps!

[ox-skull]

I just played it through, with cheats of course, but i explored a fair portion of the map, things like the reflective star trek doors and the swing door with the window in it impressed me the most, the cops cars while lame lookin where still impressive as was the fire truck, many other things like the glass floor where u can open the sliding floor impressed me also.

the biggest surpirse was i was able to play the map on 1024x768, trilinear, 4x anistropic and in polymer without any hideous slow downs, i was expexting it to be unplayable,props to paul and micky c and helixhorned.
i could on for quite awhile about the impresive things i witnessed in this map. Also near the end where the cycloid teleports in and the stacks of enemys teleport, felt like an act of god that it didnt grind to a halt. my minimum FPS was 20. Pretty damn good considering the the amount of detail in it and enemys.

The best techinical map ive ever played in duke 3d.

an easy 10 out of 10.

Brillant map guys. I could keep going on about this map, but i think u get my drift, i great inspiration to TROR mappers.

Ox

Edit: To the nit pickers, this is an example of what can be achieved with TROR, not true to life replication of real world scale, when has duke3d ever been to scale. only anal people like me and others sit there and make sure everything is to scale and not made overly large for the sake of realism. This map is friggin impressive, end of story.

[Paul B]

ox-skull, on 15 March 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

This map is friggin impressive, end of story.

Hi Ox-Skull,

Thanks man, I appreciate your postive attitude and you managed to silence all the nit pickers =)

I am curious about how you played the map though? How come you used cheats? Was it because you just wanted to run through the map without dying? or did you find the difficulty too hard? The problem with me is I've played the map over 40 times so i've gotten use to the unexpected. I'm able to get through it to the end without cheating although the final boss sometimes does kill me with a lucky rocket so I save the game just before the end scene.

[ox-skull]

Paul B, on 15 March 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

I am curious about how you played the map though? How come you used cheats?

I used cheats because i wanted to check out the TROR implementaions without dying. i might give it a go in next few days, my reflexes arent quite as good as when i was 16.

[Forge]

You had to cheat to beat the map, but you gave it a 10 out of 10?

[insert criticism statement here]

[ox-skull]

To quote myself:

I used cheats because i wanted to check out the TROR implementaions without dying. i might give it a go in next few days, my reflexes arent quite as good as when i was 16.

end quote.

If you read my post properly, i used cheats to check out what TROR features were able to be acheived. i didnt beat the map at all.
The 10 out of 10 was for the TROR features in the map.

Go back and re-read my post.


[insert criticism statement here]

[Paul B]

Forge, on 16 March 2012 - 04:49 AM, said:

You had to cheat to beat the map, but you gave it a 10 out of 10?

[insert criticism statement here]

Forge if you plan on playing the map again would you be so kind to give us an updated review? A lot has been changed in regards to your first review on scent-88's website.

Don't worry I'm ready to let this map rest now if i were to change anything it would be removing the music file from the zip file.

[Forge]

Okay, I'll look at it again.

I don't use cheats, so don't expect a 10 out of 10

[Paul B]

Forge, on 16 March 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

Okay, I'll look at it again.

I don't use cheats, so don't expect a 10 out of 10

Forge I am not shooting for 10 out of 10. I'm just shooting for a review that is a little more lenient when referring to your quotes:
1) "Some areas do suffer from aesthetic neglect due to lack of detailing".
2 "The complexities caused from doing sector work with room over room also caused a couple walls to be neglected"
3) "A few errors that allow the player to clip and may also cause the "out-of-bounds crushed" bug"

As I don't find any areas of the map to be "neglected" and as far as I know the crushed bug doesn't occur anymore and I feel that it doesn't properly represent the new map since more sprite detailing and shading have been added to some of the duller surfaces.

I'm glad to hear you don't use cheats! Cheating should only occur when Gambini sleeps around... or when we have to play his maps. =P

[ox-skull]

Forge, on 16 March 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

Okay, I'll look at it again.

I don't use cheats, so don't expect a 10 out of 10

You got some kind issue with my posts Forge?

Im more interested in what can be done with mapster32 rather than playing a game i played to death when i was younger.
I dont want any bad blood, just sensing hostility in your posts directed at me.

[rasmus thorup]

You suck at liking maps

[Micky C]

By all means anyone's welcome to look at the map in mapster to admire/figure out some of the TROR constructions.

[Forge]

ox-skull, on 16 March 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

You got some kind issue with my posts Forge?

Im more interested in what can be done with mapster32 rather than playing a game i played to death when i was younger.
I dont want any bad blood, just sensing hostility in your posts directed at me.

I was just having a little fun, don't get all mad. It's not good for your blood pressure

[ox-skull]

Aint mad bro, far from it. I was just wondering is all.

Its good to clear the air.

[Paul B]

Well within 20 minutes Forge managed to find a loophole in our map which broke the entire map. I guess i shouldn't seem so surprised but I am... Anyway I've fixed the flaw in the system and it should be good to go once again. For the average user they wouldn't have noticed the bug its only these elite die hard players who are difficult to map for because their skill levels are beyond what I can comprehend.

Sheepishly here is the updated map to prevent the elites from cheating the system

http://forums.duke4....&attach_id=5172