[Danukem]

CraigFatman, on 16 May 2011 - 02:41 AM, said:

So the feature as a whole is very promising; still I'll have to use showview to render individual passes in my mod, but having the ability to control rendering passes via CON scripts would be great.

Speaking of the showview command, is that command going to be functional in Polymer once Plagman rigs it up for TROR? It's useful for a lot of things.

[Spirrwell]

Little late to the party here, but damn, it's looking good. Does this mean that Duke3D is now true 3D? I can't wait to see this in polymer with HRP. I can't wait to test this out.

[Helixhorned]

Cheers for the encouraging words and pictures (even the gross ones ), I appreciate every one.

TX, on 15 May 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

Btw, is there any way to make this work in Polymost, perhaps by the same multi-pass methods you're using for classic?

Wasn't Polymost being, if not completely, then at least gradually deprecated in favor of Polymer? That said, I did give it a try... it turned up with HOM effects, unsurprisingly. The high-level code of a first forward pass to collect all sectors to-be-drawn and the subsequent real drawing (now back to front) could stay the same, but it's what happens in between that's crucial to the correct functioning.

DanM, on 15 May 2011 - 05:38 PM, said:

wow this is so easy to use, is there any limit to the amount of stacks you can have iam upto 6 now

The maximum number of levels that are drawn to each side (above and below) is a compile-time constant, currently at 8. This means that you can have up to 9 stacked sectors and see any one of them at any level. The maximum number of bunches in the map at large is 256. If you need more than 8 levels of drawing, call me and I'll raise it to 16. I'd be seriously surprised if you managed to make a real level that needs more, though.

NY00123, on 16 May 2011 - 01:07 AM, said:

Just a little warning for the ones who want to add ROR... Transparency doesn't seem to work with sloped ROR floors/ceilings; Even for "sloped" ones with a slope value of 0!
This is probably a limitation of the software renderer.

Heh, I missed that even though that was the reason to have sloped ROR'ed sectors -- window panes and such. There's simply no translucent texure-mapping function for them, I guess.

Micky C, on 16 May 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

Hold on I just read that the TROR maps are using a new map format (v9), does this mean we can expect so see all sorts of new features that break the old map limits in the future? Like larger sector/wall/sprite counts or sprites and textures that can be sloped?

No, V9 is essentially still V8 but the number had to be incremented because the new data wouldn't be of much use to older EDuke32 versions. The only real max-count that needs to be doubled IMO is that of the walls (because most maps have a wall/sector ratio of about 8), but there are technical issues with that. Having stuff like spriteext in the map is certainly desirable, but that's for another time.

Fox, on 16 May 2011 - 01:39 AM, said:

I am impressed on how stable this is, considering how untrustable Build engine can be

I wouldn't say the engine itself is unstable -- in fact, I've come to like BUILD internals pretty much. It's just that the early BUILD editor was pretty sloppy in its error-checking that gave the impression.

CraigFatman, on 16 May 2011 - 02:41 AM, said:

I see that you've reserved sector's xpanning properties to remember bunch number it belongs to, what isn't good for masked sectors (they can be panned only y-wise). There's an unused "filler" parameter which you might want to use as well (it is shared between the floor and ceiling though). Also TROR has some problems with viewing through sloped surfaces (you've already placed a "bug" label where it appears in the sample map).

Well, let's document those new sector cstat flags... If I understand correctly, they're dedicated for:

• 512 Block movement when used as a portal
  
• 1024 ROR portal flag (xrepeat is the bunch number)
  
• 2048 Block hitscan when used as a portal

So the feature as a whole is very promising; still I'll have to use showview to render individual passes in my mod, but having the ability to control rendering passes via CON scripts would be great.

Xpanning seemed to me the least of all evils, the reason being that masking sectors would in 99% be with 'seamless' textures like water, slime, or glass. Where alignment is necessary, you can somewhat weasel around that limitation by assigning a different firstwall.

The meaning of the floorstat/ceilingstat bits is correct. Additionally, wall[].cstat now uses bits 1024 and 2048, meaning "constrained wall, look up upper neighbor wallnum in lotag (1024) or lower neighbor wallnum in extra (2048)". As I said earlier, they're only used inside the editor and when loading the map into the game, after which they're transferred out of sight (for now). Eh, I guess I'm just being overcautious here... but after all, imagine what would happen if a CON script happily used wall lotag/extra for its own purposes...

[SwissCm]

Any chance of a better sector selecting tool? The current method is incredibly imprecise. Something like, holding alt and clicking sectors to select them would be preferable.

Oh and awesome job btw.

[Helixhorned]

That's actually a darned neat idea. You know about RCtrl+RAlt though, do you?

[Jblade]

Quote

No, V9 is essentially still V8 but the number had to be incremented because the new data wouldn't be of much use to older EDuke32 versions. The only real max-count that needs to be doubled IMO is that of the walls (because most maps have a wall/sector ratio of about 8), but there are technical issues with that. Having stuff like spriteext in the map is certainly desirable, but that's for another time.

You say there's technical issues, but is it something you're looking into? I remember it's been asked lots and the resounding answer was 'not with lots of work' but since there's more people on the Eduke32 team it might be slightly more feasible now? (personally it's not the wall count I'm keen on increasing but more the max number of art files)

[Hank]

Hendricks266, on 15 May 2011 - 09:56 PM, said:

Do or do not; there is no try.

Ah. It's been a while. It looks like Helixhorned will look also into this. The future looks good.

[Helixhorned]

James, on 16 May 2011 - 11:13 AM, said:

You say there's technical issues, but is it something you're looking into? I remember it's been asked lots and the resounding answer was 'not with lots of work' but since there's more people on the Eduke32 team it might be slightly more feasible now? (personally it's not the wall count I'm keen on increasing but more the max number of art files)

No, raising the wall count is really practically impossible: the upper two bits are used in all sorts of places around the code, and more importantly, they leave the engine and find their way into CON. I never looked at how ART files are handled, so I don't know how the limits come about.

[MusicallyInspired]

Can't wait to play some sweet new maps with this feature!

[Jblade]

Helixhorned, on 16 May 2011 - 12:40 PM, said:

No, raising the wall count is really practically impossible: the upper two bits are used in all sorts of places around the code, and more importantly, they leave the engine and find their way into CON. I never looked at how ART files are handled, so I don't know how the limits come about.

That's fair enough, I remember it being said as much in the past - it's not like it's a huge problem in anycase because the hub map stuff and the increased level space means that it only really effects people who make stand-alone releases (and even then they could always make an episode) I only vaguely remember hearing off of Highwire who asked TX for me about raising the art tile limits that they couldn't be raised past 60 art files, but that might of been incorrect. If you ever look at that side of the game, an increase would be very very appreciated!

to be more topical, this is really cool stuff - thanks for taking the time to add more cool things to classic mode, it was feeling a little bit left out with all the polymer stuff my head was kind of swimming at the explanation, but the tutorial map showed it off enough.

[Spirrwell]

So when could we expect a finished release with polymer\HRP support? A few months?

Edit: Wow, somebody gave me a negative for asking a question. Real nice.

[Kristian Joensen]

Awesome stuff. It is great seeing all the things coming out of the EDuke32 community.

[Gambini]

Helixhorned, on 16 May 2011 - 10:20 AM, said:

Wasn't Polymost being, if not completely, then at least gradually deprecated in favor of Polymer? That said, I did give it a try... it turned up with HOM effects, unsurprisingly. The high-level code of a first forward pass to collect all sectors to-be-drawn and the subsequent real drawing (now back to front) could stay the same, but it's what happens in between that's crucial to the correct functioning.

No offence to Plagman but i think there´s a long go before Polymer takes the place of Polymost. There are still too many reasons to use polymost over polymer, so i´d suggest to keep functionalities as much compatible as possible.

[SwissCm]

Gambini, on 16 May 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

No offence to Plagman but i think there´s a long go before Polymer takes the place of Polymost. There are still too many reasons to use polymost over polymer, so i´d suggest to keep functionalities as much compatible as possible.

The only reasons are stability and to a lesser extent, speed.

[Gambini]

You´re wrong. There are several things that don´t work in polymer. For example, more than one skybox/parallax. Decal sprites clipping walls, some constructions using maskwalls tricks can´t be seen in polymer. That showview command everybody is talking about, drawing distance. And some other oddities harder to explain.

[HellFire]

Damn, this is so awesome. I may try to map for duke again. There's some stuff that i always wanted to do that i could'nt before but now seems to be possible, thanks helix!

[Hank]

Helixhorned, on 15 May 2011 - 03:19 PM, said:

Thus ends this tutorial. I hope you had as much fun reading it as I making the system. Now goeth forth and maketh some awesome-looking maps .

How do I get the latest Mapster32? Or am I missing something again? The link at the Eduke site gives a build dated from March.

[Master Fibbles]

http://dukeworld.duk...ke32/synthesis/

[Hank]

Thanks Mr. Flibble

Spirrwell, on 16 May 2011 - 02:32 PM, said:

So when could we expect a finished release with polymer\HRP support? A few months?

Edit: Wow, somebody gave me a negative for asking a question. Real nice.

Lol I got one two. Who cares?

[Gambini]

I´ve been playing with this new feature. There´s something i dont understand yet: How I can work on upper sectors and lower sectors separately? Not sure if that´s possible. But if not, seems pretty tricky to get decent structures because you never know when you´re editing the upper or the lower sector, examples: adding sprites in 2d mode, joining sectors, selecting first wall. Basically any 2d operation that requires to aim the cursor into one bidirectional coordenate.

[Stabs]

i found where you are in the 3d space controls what you control in the 2d, if your in the 3rd layer thats what 2d mode will edit, you can press f3 and spam the mmb around till it selects another level, all others should be greyed out

[Gambini]

I appreciate you want to help buddy but i really dont understand what you´re saying.

[Stabs]

well in 3d mode 'i toggles the ROR layers on and off, if you go between any of those ROR layers it will put you in that space in the 2d map and thats the only space you will edit, to change between editable ROR layers in 2d, use f3 and middle mouse button to select a ROR layer, its outer sector should turn white and thats the only space you will edit

only thing ROR layers share in common is their white outer sector, if you change that on one it will change it on all.

[Hank]

With my English – you need to have the ability to see the walls from the 2D top view. I usually use the smallest grid to offset one lower wall from the next level upper wall. (The player will not notice it.) Then you simply work with room over room basics as with any map.

And yes, you should plan ahead. All sprites will be placed at the bottom level. Simply raise them in 3D, or give yourself a 'dead' spot ( a location at the plane where the height correlates with the desired sector height) where you could place a sprite and move it into position in 2D mode.

If it is off interest, make another topic and I'll post some images, this thread contains the mystery red ghost.

[Gambini]

Well yeah pretty much what i have been doing then guys (if I understood correctly this time). But I thought there was an easier way, That about the gray lines. I mean, now that we can make more complex architecture thanks to this TROR thing, another method should be designed. For example when you switch to the upper part, you certainly can edit the upper connecting sector, but if you add something there, say a surrounding sector, and then go back to the bottom, this surrounding sector that belongs to the "upper world" is still visible and can be affected by merging lines or joining sectors.

[Hendricks266]

Helixhorned, on 16 May 2011 - 10:20 AM, said:

(even the gross ones )

Anytime.

[Nukester10]

Hat's off,just having an Isometric Grid is worth checking this out alone.
But when you quoted,

Helixhorned, on 15 May 2011 - 03:19 PM, said:

Now you might decide that one of the houses needs a roof, but constructing one above the windows would normally be impossible. No more! Change to 2D mode, highlight all sectors having the parallaxed ceiling, and extend them above.

And all we ended up seeing is,



Now At the Max,I'm absolutely not trying to piss on anybody's parade,I'm just trying to relate some
noteworthy constructive criticism.

But,to add to that,all I want to know is under this new code,can I elevate this building and walk into it?



My second question relates to this,maybe you've read this before but anyhow,

Ok,let me explain it this way,lets pretend your standing in the middle of this imaginary room,this room your standing in has a floor and a ceiling.This room also has four walls around you, but no windows though,ok.Now let's also pretend this room your standing in represents 3D mode in mapster32,follow me?Ok,now being this is the case,if I asked you to raise a small sector you previously created in 2D mode,what would you do?
You would point to the floor and you would cause a small sector to rise from the floor in front of you,correct?Correct.Now if I asked you to bring down the top portion of this sector,what would you do?Right,you would point to the ceiling and pull down the top portion of this sector.

NOW LISTEN TO THIS PART VERY CAREFULLY:

Now, if I asked you to raise both of your arms straight out and point to the walls on either side of you,
that's the walls to your left and to your right.Next I'd like you to raise a small sector from
each of these walls,

What's the problem?What do you mean you can't do it? You could raise the sectors I asked you to from both the floor and the ceiling with no problem at all,yet,when I asked you to raise the sectors on the walls to your left and right,you couldn't.

THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT

In the end,it's only constructive questioning,let's put it that way.

And can you do this btw? I'm not talking shit,just asking?

[SwissCm]

You could, uh, you know, try it for yourself instead of typing out terribly written posts?

Gambini, on 16 May 2011 - 04:26 PM, said:

You´re wrong. There are several things that don´t work in polymer. For example, more than one skybox/parallax. Decal sprites clipping walls, some constructions using maskwalls tricks can´t be seen in polymer. That showview command everybody is talking about, drawing distance. And some other oddities harder to explain.

Those are rendering quirks that need to be fixed, yes, but I was thinking more show-stoppers. Polymer is unusable on ATI cards, it leaks memory like a motherfucker and creates such a resource drain that my PC becomes unresponsive and I have to hard-reset.

[Muelsa]

made a bridge to test TROR



ps: I am not able to copy/past sectors, is this normal ?

[bullerbullerseven]

Who is the ignorant idiot that thumbs down a man with a simple question? Nukesters post couldn't piss off a normal human being.