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Maybe Rep Feedback Option Wasn't Such A Good Idea  "I'm Speechless"

User is offline   MrBlackCat 

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#31

Mr.Deviance... there will always be "unfairness" as long as there are people involved, and especially in a public forum filled with anonymous users. Like you said, there are conformity issues to deal with when others can see your reputation.

What if the users rating was hidden?
I do think if the actual reputation score was hidden from public view and only visible to the user it will still be about the same as it is so far.

You say "I've stated before that I am an admin since 2002 of a forum with 141220 registered members to date, maybe my opinion is worth more to the staff of this forum if I mention that fact since I believe that I did gather a bit of experience with these things during this time and I might not totally be guessing things. "

I have been using electronic communications since 1984. I am a "lot" of different things compared to most people I know. But in here, it doesn't matter what you are, what you have done, how good you did it, or even if you "are kind of a big deal"... it doesn't matter.

All that matters is if you are compatible or not.

MrBlackCat

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This post has been edited by MrBlackCat: 28 April 2011 - 08:46 AM

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User is offline   Mr.Deviance 

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#32

View PostMrBlackCat, on 28 April 2011 - 08:42 AM, said:

Mr.Deviance... there will always be "unfairness" as long as there are people involved, and especially in a public forum filled with anonymous users. Like you said, there are conformity issues to deal with when others can see your reputation.

What if the users rating was hidden?
I do think if the actual reputation score was hidden from public view and only visible to the user it will still be about the same as it is so far.

You say "I've stated before that I am an admin since 2002 of a forum with 141220 registered members to date, maybe my opinion is worth more to the staff of this forum if I mention that fact since I believe that I did gather a bit of experience with these things during this time and I might not totally be guessing things. "

I have been using electronic communications since 1984. I am a "lot" of different things compared to most people I know. But in here, it doesn't matter what you are, what you have done, how good you did it, or even if you "are kind of a big deal"... it doesn't matter.

All that matters is if you are compatible or not.

MrBlackCat

I see that almost every post that you make deals with compatibility as your main goal.
I think it's very clear by now for both of us that I am not compatible with the majority of US citizens and their ideals, but that's something that I suspect you already feel when reading my posts even if you can't pin point it or not.
As an info bonus I can tell you that I find it hard to also be compatible with canadians and australians and this statement is based on what I've noticed during my years of interaction with all kinds of random people from all around the world.
As an even more private info bonus about myself I can tell you that the people I get along with the best are germans and uk people.
And since duke nukem is an american hero american people are predominant on this forum and that's ok but you have to keep in mind that international people like duke nukem too and not because of it's patriotic us personality but because of his style and his games.
Since this forum doesn't require everybody to be american, I think I am not wrong to say that american citizens should be more open and tolerant to international users.
It would be very ignorant to expect compatibility from everybody with everybody without compromise from both sides.

Up until now, I can say that you do seem to have been one of the most tolerant users that seem to be from US, even if you don't seem to understand my points too much. I respect that but you have to understand that fighting trolls from all directions is a bit bothersome, especially when English is not even remotely close to being your first language ;)
I made the entire last paragraph of my topic based on assumptions and speculation and if I am wrong then I am sorry but sometimes I trust my intuition and experience with people online.

This post has been edited by Mr.Deviance: 28 April 2011 - 09:30 AM

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User is offline   MrBlackCat 

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#33

View PostMr.Deviance, on 28 April 2011 - 09:17 AM, said:

I think it's very clear by now for both of us that I am not compatible with american citizens but just to what I suspect you already feel, I can tell you I find it hard to also be compatible with canadians and australians.
And since duke nukem is an american hero american people are predominant on this forum and that's ok but you have to keep in mind that international people like duke nukem too and not because of it's patriotic us personality but because of his style and his games.
Since this forum doesn't require everybody to be american, I think I am not wrong to say that american citizens should be more open and tolerant to international users.
It would be very ignorant to expect compatibility from everybody with everybody without compromise from both sides.

You are very discriminatory... and I don't think you even know it. "not compatible with American Citizens" WTF?! That is an easy out to pretend you aren't just abrasive. Some peoples ideas and ideals are "against the grain" you CHOOSE to be against the grain for the sake of being against said grain... and people see through that. You also do that in an abusive manner consistently. Sure, no one understands you... it is all their fault. EVEN if it is all their fault, what difference does it make?

You can be the devils advocate without being the devil... :)

If this site is doomed, why not go start the Duke Nukem Forum for the Misunderstood and Culturally challenged then? Then when the spine of this forum finally breaks, then all the lost members who run screaming from the ashes of anarchy and hatred can have a home with you as the understanding moderator. That would be my actual reaction if I was in your position.

What is ignorant is to expect that people from every other culturally different locations to be unaware that they are entering a "different zone" with mixes of LOTS of cultures.

I see no intolerance of on this site by Americans toward international users. I don't even know where everyone is from and don't care for the most part. I do see discrimination against jerks though... those poor guys are really getting ragged on.

I type with People not cultures...
I am not compatible with Americans, Africans, Canadians, any race, gender, creed religion, boy scout or anything else. I am not "grouping" anything actually... I type with people, not Blacks, not Whites, not women, not Canadians or any other group with the exception in this case of Duke Nukem fans.

You remind me of this guy on a Quake Tech forum I was typing with once... he says "Do you type with gays?" just like that. I said... "No, I type with people... about Quake here... and if that were to even come up in a discussion about Quake, YOU have a problem." He says "Oh, so you are another homophobic, blah blah." Then he threatened me and so on. Being younger and more agressive than I am not, and idealistically wanting to make the world a better place, one wiped hard drive at a time, I arranged a free hard drive format on reboot for him though. I am funny that way, like a comedian. Hah. ;)

See how insane that exchange was? Reading your posts actually made me remember that prick. There was no misunderstanding.

You are in the jerk group is the problem I see Mr.Deviance. I can only speak for myself, but if I were to give you a negative (and I don't think I actually ever have) it would be because you were a jerk regardless of where you were from. I am PLENTY wise enough to know the difference. There is no misunderstanding, no gross incompatibility due to cultural boundaries etc. That is THEORY and that is how I was discussing it. It isn't here though... sorry. You are just in the jerk category and your Reputation is reflecting that.

I do believe that you started your thread to point out that the feedback system might not be in the best interest of everyone. Because it isn't. It DOES provide a tool to discriminate against forum terrorists... and we don't want to offend them for sure. Yeah, I am all for racial profiling at airports for security too... Does it work every time? No. Is it unfair sometimes? Yes, but less than not. Does it work for the overall good. YES, I really think it does.

I expect Yatta will come in soon and drop another Ultra-Diplomacy bomb on the thread soon... I do like how he does that so well. ;)

***edit***
No Mr.Deviance. I don't understand you if that is relative to compatibility. I don't punish people with my views if they aren't open to them. I have a lot of views... and if I die with most of them unknown to another person, then I am still ok. They are for me, but if I can share them for the benefit of others, then I try to do that.

MrBlackCat

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This post has been edited by MrBlackCat: 28 April 2011 - 10:10 AM

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User is offline   Mr.Deviance 

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#34

View PostMrBlackCat, on 28 April 2011 - 10:05 AM, said:

You are very discriminatory... and I don't think you even know it. "not compatible with American Citizens" WTF?! That is an easy out to pretend you aren't just abrasive. Some peoples ideas and ideals are "against the grain" you CHOOSE to be against the grain for the sake of being against said grain... and people see through that. You also do that in an abusive manner consistently. Sure, no one understands you... it is all their fault. EVEN if it is all their fault, what difference does it make?

You can be the devils advocate without being the devil... :)

If this site is doomed, why not go start the Duke Nukem Forum for the Misunderstood and Culturally challenged then? Then when the spine of this forum finally breaks, then all the lost members who run screaming from the ashes of anarchy and hatred can have a home with you as the understanding moderator. That would be my actual reaction if I was in your position.

What is ignorant is to expect that people from every other culturally different locations to be unaware that they are entering a "different zone" with mixes of LOTS of cultures.

I see no intolerance of on this site by Americans toward international users. I don't even know where everyone is from and don't care for the most part. I do see discrimination against jerks though... those poor guys are really getting ragged on.

I type with People not cultures...
I am not compatible with Americans, Africans, Canadians, any race, gender, creed religion, boy scout or anything else. I am not "grouping" anything actually... I type with people, not Blacks, not Whites, not women, not Canadians or any other group with the exception in this case of Duke Nukem fans.

You remind me of this guy on a Quake Tech forum I was typing with once... he says "Do you type with gays?" just like that. I said... "No, I type with people... about Quake here... and if that were to even come up in a discussion about Quake, YOU have a problem." He says "Oh, so you are another homophobic, blah blah." Then he threatened me and so on. Being younger and more agressive than I am not, and idealistically wanting to make the world a better place, one wiped hard drive at a time, I arranged a free hard drive format on reboot for him though. I am funny that way, like a comedian. Hah. ;)

See how insane that exchange was? Reading your posts actually made me remember that prick. There was no misunderstanding.

You are in the jerk group is the problem I see Mr.Deviance. I can only speak for myself, but if I were to give you a negative (and I don't think I actually ever have) it would be because you were a jerk regardless of where you were from. I am PLENTY wise enough to know the difference. There is no misunderstanding, no gross incompatibility due to cultural boundaries etc. That is THEORY and that is how I was discussing it. It isn't here though... sorry. You are just in the jerk category and your Reputation is reflecting that.

I do believe that you started your thread to point out that the feedback system might not be in the best interest of everyone. Because it isn't. It DOES provide a tool to discriminate against forum terrorists... and we don't want to offend them for sure. Yeah, I am all for racial profiling at airports for security too... Does it work every time? No. Is it unfair sometimes? Yes, but less than not. Does it work for the overall good. YES, I really think it does.

I expect Yatta will come in soon and drop another Ultra-Diplomacy bomb on the thread soon... I do like how he does that so well. ;)

***edit***
No Mr.Deviance. I don't understand you if that is relative to compatibility. I don't punish people with my views if they aren't open to them. I have a lot of views... and if I die with most of them unknown to another person, then I am still ok. They are for me, but if I can share them for the benefit of others, then I try to do that.

MrBlackCat


It's funny that you think you can solve this debate of ours about multicultural incompatibilities yet you forget that me and you are already living and experiencing this incompatibility in everything we say/think about each other right now as we are typing these very posts.
You seem to be following the principle that you can befriend an alien by teaching that alien your ways and trying to get him to respect your ways and understand you at one point.
I may remind of of some jerks(sorry for that) but you also don't seem very keen to lose this debate no matter if you are right or wrong.
So that being said I think it's best for both of us to just end this debate and call it a cultural barrier.
As for your statement claiming that I purposely do not want to get along with certain people, that's just wrong. I did not say that I am not understood and that I am discriminated or a victim for that matter, I just said that I can't get along with people from those areas and that's a result that I have obtained based on my personal statistics measured on multiple years of intercation.
I've had debates about this with other people and they all agreed with me that us people are very hard to reason with due to a predominant ideology that they are right because they are right and everybody else is wrong because he is not from us.
But again I think we are deviating on a sociopolitical ground which I have no reason to expand here.
If you want we can have a separate topic about it :D
I am in no way a us hater or something like that as I do have a few friends from USA and I also find some people from there to be excessively reasonable, tolerant and generally likeable people.
Like you said, Yatta would be a good example.
Anyway it's been interesting to have this debate with you but I am going to sleep now since it's late as hell.

This post has been edited by Mr.Deviance: 28 April 2011 - 10:32 AM

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User is offline   MrBlackCat 

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#35

View PostMr.Deviance, on 28 April 2011 - 10:21 AM, said:

It's funny that you think you can solve this debate of ours about multicultural incompatibilities yet you forget that me and you are already living and experiencing this incompatibility in everything we say/think about each other right now as we are typing these very posts.
I don't agree... because I don't think it is cultural. I think the incompatibilities are from other things entirely. I don't know where you are from, but I am certain I have typed with people from your area and gotten along just fine.

Mr.Deviance said:

You seem to be following the principle that you can befriend an alien by teaching that alien your ways and trying to get him to respect your ways and understand you at one point.

I am not trying to be friends... I am just trying to point out that your percieved DoomsDay prediction that will be produced by the Reputation system is extremely unlikely and that it does not matter WHY the negatives are being generated, just that they are. Some people don't know they are being abrasive or are incompatible here. HOW you react to that is a choice... be it anarchy or hatred.

Mr.Deviance said:

I may remind of of some jerks(sorry for that) but you also don't seem very keen to lose this debate no matter if you are right or wrong.

Actually I like you because you are smart... how about that. I read all your posts and assessed you like I neurotically do with members over time. I "know what you are" at least within my understanding. I don't like you because you are abrasive on purpose in my opinion. I think you are just angry or something. Not sure. I just like smart people, what can I say? The point is that it isn't about right or wrong... it is about understanding. Just like in all those divorces... neither is right or wrong, just incompatible. Divorce is the not the only option Mr.Deviance, but I wish you would get some relational therapy, you know? (all metaphor of course)

Mr.Deviance said:

So that being said I think it's best for both of us to just end this debate and call it a cultural barrier.
You can end any time you wish of course... but this is not a cultural barrier, just a difference in how we choose to interact with other people... in my opinion.

Mr.Deviance said:

As for your statement claiming that I purposely do not want to get along with certain people, that's just wrong.
Not sure exactly what this was referencing, but if you DO want to get along with people on forums, then you don't try very hard in my opinion. Maybe it is part of your culture not to try hard to get along with people. I don't know.

Mr.Deviance said:

I did not say that I am not understood and that I am discriminated or a victim for that matter, I just said that I can't get along with people from those areas and that's a result that I have obtained based on my personal statistics measured on multiple years of intercation.
I have typed with more people in my life than you have... I will bet so anyway. From everywhere in the world basically... I lived on line with multiple cams for years. I lived on the net from my late 20's to late 30's. Yep.

With that experience stated, please take my suggestion... don't group people. It doesn't work well. I can honestly say that I have not met someone from every geographical location that I can't get along with it. Just like lawyers, don't let the 99% that are bad bias you completely toward the other 1%. Just an experienced suggestion.

Mr.Deviance said:

I've had debates about this with other people and they all agreed with me that us people are very hard to reason with due to a predominant ideology that they are right because they are right and everybody else is wrong because he is not from us.
This is the stuff wars are made of... and should be stamped out. Very seldom are an areas "peoples" bad over all... it is governments that are bad... and it is governments that will poison its peoples against another people. You have fallen prey it seems.

Mr.Deviance said:

I am in no way a us hater or something like that as I do have a few friends from USA and I also find some people from there to be excessively reasonable, tolerant and generally likeable people.
LIKE ME! See? We aren't all bad! Oh... I am one of the good Americans by the way. :)

Mr.Deviance said:

Like you said, Yatta would be a good example.
Anyway it's been interesting to have this debate with you but I am going to sleep now since it's late as hell.
I don't know what to make of Yatta... I just kind of see him as insane, but I am drawn to such things. ;)
Night...

MrBlackCat

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User is offline   Kathy 

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#36

That has become one fucked up thread. I can't even comprehend how the hell you were able to drag nations/cultures into this. This community is small and internationally diverse enough to stop this kind of shit.

http://forums.duke4....-traffic-stats/

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User is offline   MrBlackCat 

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#37

View PostLotan, on 28 April 2011 - 11:09 AM, said:

That has become one fucked up thread. I can't even comprehend how the hell you were able to drag nations/cultures into this. This community is small and internationally diverse enough to stop this kind of shit.

http://forums.duke4....-traffic-stats/
I was only discussing it in theory actually.

It's probably a cultural misinterpretation Lotan... you don't understand... and are lost. You will probably get negatives about it because people don't get your point also... then you will develop hatred... leading to anarchy. :)

(hehehe... sorry, I am getting tired)

Thanks for the links though... I see what you mean. Pretty dang diverse. ;)

Kind of puts kink in the whole "People will be discriminated against with the Reputation tool because of cultural differences" thingy.

The meter would need a geographic pie chart to really prove the whole cultural discrimination thing I think. Which I personally believe would not support the theory suggested in the now locked other tread.

MrBlackCat

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This post has been edited by MrBlackCat: 28 April 2011 - 05:56 PM

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User is offline   Rellik 

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#38

si fueris Rōmae, Rōmānō vīvitō mōre; si fueris alibī, vīvitō sicut ibi.

It's in latin, look it up.
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User is offline   Master Fibbles 

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#39

When in Rome, do as the Romans do....

Well, I think vivito isn't the best word, but whatever. I prefer facito. ;)

I'm still smarter than you

This post has been edited by Mr.Flibble: 30 April 2011 - 09:54 AM

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User is offline   Yatta 

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  #40

View PostLotan, on 28 April 2011 - 11:09 AM, said:

That has become one fucked up thread. I can't even comprehend how the hell you were able to drag nations/cultures into this. This community is small and internationally diverse enough to stop this kind of shit.

http://forums.duke4....-traffic-stats/

We presently get over five times the traffic indicated in those two-year-old stats. ;)

I love Duke4.net. It's one of my life's proudest accomplishments. I'm proud of the community we have built here and the beautiful work that comes out of it every day. I'm proud of the friends I've made here and the kind people who made all of this possible with their hard work, donations, and participation. Thank you.
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User is offline   MrBlackCat 

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#41

I will take that as misunderstandings based in cultural differences isn't likely the source of undeserved negative feedback in the Reputation system then. I am still leaning toward "being a jerk" produces most of the negatives, not misunderstandings from any source.

In fairness, being a Jerk IS relative to point of view sometimes... and I can see why some negatives would be considered "abuse" by those who received them.

In more fairness, some negatives, and some positive will not be deserved... but it doesn't mean the system is broken or is not representative of something usable to the majority of forum members.

MrBlackCat

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This post has been edited by MrBlackCat: 30 April 2011 - 12:38 PM

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User is offline   Hank 

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#42

View PostMrBlackCat, on 30 April 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:

In fairness, being a Jerk IS relative to point of view sometimes... and I can see why some negatives would be considered "abuse" by those who received them.

In more fairness, some negatives, and some positive will not be deserved... but it doesn't mean the system is broken or is not representative of something usable to the majority of forum members.

MrBlackCat


I think it's a bit over analyzed. People, at least I, usually do not act in logical terms, they like to think that way but about 95% of the time it is emotional. I read a post and get an emotion.

For example. Post 38. A world famous quote. I read the small print and thought what an arrogant arsehole. Look it up. What do you think of yourself? Only the elite knows this? Who da fuck gave him a green point? Is the aim of this forum to assimilate everyone, or whoever gave him a point must think so? - Not logical. Right! But I was tempted to give him a red point just for the small print quote anyways, luckily I remembered that I do not hand out red points.

I think only time will tell how this rating will work out, meanwhile we just can hope that the admin peeps keep the fun factor alive, since this site is getting very busy ...

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User is offline   Master Fibbles 

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#43

View PostHank, on 30 April 2011 - 01:58 PM, said:

For example. Post 38. A world famous quote. I read the small print and thought what an arrogant arsehole. Look it up. What do you think of yourself? Only the elite knows this? Who da fuck gave him a green point? Is the aim of this forum to assimilate everyone, or whoever gave him a point must think so? - Not logical. Right! But I was tempted to give him a red point just for the small print quote anyways, luckily I remembered that I do not hand out red points.

I gave him a +1 because I like Latin...what is wrong with that? Most people don't know Latin and wouldn't be able to recognize what the quote was saying.

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User is offline   Hank 

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#44

View PostMr.Flibble, on 30 April 2011 - 03:45 PM, said:

I gave him a +1 because I like Latin...what is wrong with that? Most people don't know Latin and wouldn't be able to recognize what the quote was saying.

Nothing. I simply stated my thought pattern in the context of the rating system. We may see each other of being capable to issue rational points, yet, I think this is very hard to do. You see, again just as a sample, when you are put down by the elite as you grew up, because your dad was only a factory worker and your mom was just a "Waschweib" (no clue what this is in English), those little statements, like "Look it up", reminds me on the good old days. - Hope this helps. Posted Image

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User is offline   Master Fibbles 

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#45

Waschweib? Sounds like a laundry woman. I'm not sure those exist anymore. But you never know...maybe in some dark alley in a large city where people are sold like crack which is, incidentally, sold like candy.

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User is offline   MrBlackCat 

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#46

I still say it is more of compatibility meter...

It will be used differently by different people, but in the end it is a meter.

What if I LOVE trolling?! I come here and quickly see that Blackharted is my hero and mentor. So the system still works from that perspective.
If I despise trolling? The system still works.

If I like or dislike Latin, then the system might be of little or no use in providing much of a guide for which posts to ignore. So in Mr.Flibbles case, this throws in some deviation which I would expect from a WIDE range of views as obscure as his own choice for that point. It will work both ways I am certain.

Even with deviations like this one good example we have been shown, I just don't see the randomness in the system that is going to bring about Hatred and Anarchy... but I am still open to both. ;)

MrBlackCat

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User is offline   Forge 

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#47

Nothing wrong with latin, but Hank is right. That quote is usually taken out of context.

The idea was for members of the newly formed christian church to move into foreign countries and act like they do to fit in. All the while they are covertly trying to convert the natives to christianity.

If you think there's a need to pretend to be something that you're not on a simple game forum, then you don't have cultural boundaries, you have psychological issues that need to be addressed.

I spent over 20 years in the military and have been all over this planet. I haven't been to each and every country, but from my experience the only cultural barriers I've encountered had to do with customs and courtesies (i.e. take your foot wear off before you enter the house, don't show the bottom of your foot to someone because it's very disrespectful, never shake with your left hand, do not step into the house with the left foot leading etc.etc.etc.)

I have rarely come across a cultural barrier that has to do with how people communicate. Insults and abrasive behavior are recognized globally for what they are, no matter what language is being spoken or where it's from.

The problem isn't cultural barriers, it's upbringing. If someone is having a hard time fitting in, it's most likely because they are either a bully, someone who's been picked on or put in a repressed atmosphere, or someone whom the parent(s) don't care what they do and now they run wild with no structure to guide them. [Insert all the other reasons for someone to act out]
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User is offline   MrBlackCat 

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#48

That is almost TOO practical and rational.
I like that... how can we vote a post up twice when it deserves it? (hehehe)

I would have never thought to state it like that... damn I got a lot to learn about expression! I write help files and manuals though... I think it has poisoned me from trying to explain abstract things sometimes... especially briefly as is required by forums... is a lot different than trying to ask questions and strip posts down to their wisdom across languages etc.
***deleted a lot of thoughts here for brevity***

MrBlackCat

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This post has been edited by MrBlackCat: 30 April 2011 - 08:43 PM

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User is offline   Kathy 

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#49

View PostMrBlackCat, on 30 April 2011 - 12:38 PM, said:

I will take that as misunderstandings based in cultural differences isn't likely the source of undeserved negative feedback in the Reputation system then. I am still leaning toward "being a jerk" produces most of the negatives, not misunderstandings from any source.

But in some countries "being a jerk" is normal behaviour. USA for example. ;)

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User is offline   Micky C 

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#50

View PostMr.Flibble, on 30 April 2011 - 09:52 AM, said:

Well, I think vivito isn't the best word, but whatever. I prefer facito. ;)


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User is offline   Forge 

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#51

View PostLotan, on 30 April 2011 - 09:21 PM, said:

But in some countries "being a jerk" is normal behaviour. USA for example. ;)


I live in the US and I would tend to agree with that blanket statement.
Adding to that blanket statement with another blanket statement; on the surface and at face value, the majority of the people in big cities are self absorbed, self centered, impolite, inconsiderate jerks. Once you meet them face to face and get to know them, they're pretty much just average people, but don't get in their way in the grocery store or on the highway because they'll run you over.
Rural people are mostly polite and considerate all the time. Country and farming community people would give you the shirt off their back in an ice storm if they thought you were cold.

This post has been edited by Forge: 01 May 2011 - 06:22 AM

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User is offline   Master Fibbles 

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#52

View PostForge, on 30 April 2011 - 08:26 PM, said:

The idea was for members of the newly formed christian church to move into foreign countries and act like they do to fit in. All the while they are covertly trying to convert the natives to christianity.

Actually, this is totally off topic...but it is from (allegedly) Ambrose to Augustine talking about different ritual customs in early Christianity. Contrary to popular belief, earlier Christianity was anything but unified. Different cities had different rituals and customs regarding liturgy especially. Although many aspects were the same (key aspects that tend to be retained even today in liturgical Christian Churches), there were several things that varied from city to city. Although (apparently) that letter from Ambrose is lost (I couldn't find it in the usual places) and the quote is only retained from a latter quotation, that is the actual context from which is is taken.

This has nothing to do with your actual post, I'm just nit picky right now.

View PostMicky C, on 01 May 2011 - 04:37 AM, said:

I prefer fellatio Posted Image

Which, incidentally, is a Latin word...and means exactly what you think it means.

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Those latin speakers are sick minded Posted Image

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#54

View PostMr.Flibble, on 01 May 2011 - 05:59 AM, said:

Actually, this is totally off topic...but it is from (allegedly) Ambrose to Augustine talking about different ritual customs in early Christianity. Contrary to popular belief, earlier Christianity was anything but unified. Different cities had different rituals and customs regarding liturgy especially. Although many aspects were the same (key aspects that tend to be retained even today in liturgical Christian Churches), there were several things that varied from city to city. Although (apparently) that letter from Ambrose is lost (I couldn't find it in the usual places) and the quote is only retained from a latter quotation, that is the actual context from which is is taken.

This has nothing to do with your actual post, I'm just nit picky right now.



Quite possible, but he paraphrased straight from the letters of John to the disciples after Jesus' death.
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View PostMicky C, on 01 May 2011 - 06:26 AM, said:

Those latin speakers are sick minded Posted Image

Perhaps if you dig deep enough, you may find a good translation of satires from Martial or Catullus. Those are actually tame compared to the stuff written on the walls in ancient cities. Graffiti has always been vulgar, but people don't always realize how vulgar they were 2000 years ago.

View PostForge, on 01 May 2011 - 06:36 AM, said:

Quite possible, but he paraphrased straight from the letters of John to the disciples after Jesus' death.

That doesn't sound like John. Maybe Paul. Although the John letters are all short, I don't feel like reading them and I don't feel like arguing over such a little thing.

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View PostMr.Flibble, on 01 May 2011 - 08:51 AM, said:

That doesn't sound like John. Maybe Paul. Although the John letters are all short, I don't feel like reading them and I don't feel like arguing over such a little thing.


You are quite correct sir. It was Paul. And no, it's off topic and not worth an extended discussion.
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View PostForge, on 01 May 2011 - 05:54 AM, said:

I live in the US and I would tend to agree with that blanket statement.
Rural people are mostly polite and considerate all the time. Country and farming community people would give you the shirt off their back in an ice storm if they thought you were cold.

I would agree with the "general" statement of some people packed into cities might fall into the jerk category, but still I would try to take everyone as individuals and not group except in the most extreme of situations.
I am like 20 miles from the nearest city and live in the middle of 200 acres of property. On the road, people here still wave/acknowledge each other even if we don't know one another. "We" didn't even start locking our houses until a few years ago. I live in the "Deep Fried South", so it is probably not "as bad" here, even in the city. I have seen a lot of people learn why "we" as a subculture are polite here though... and it proves that violence should always be an option on the list... it works in some cases.

I would say it is most common to walk away from trouble once... then as a general habit "we" teach the aggressor it is wise to learn patience, politeness etc. Most peoples reaction that that is that "we" could learn to deal with it maybe... which is true, but it works both ways. I would rather people learn to be polite and talk things out than for people to think it is OK to be verbally abusive. So does the majority here.

I have seen our judicial system side with the concept of defending your honor probably half the time. "Legal? I know what is legal. Son, you were an asshole, we don't do that here. You're luck he didn't kill you." Actual quote from a local judge. I will never forget that. Bailiff said to me how much he loved that judge because he tried so hard to teach people, not just stoically pass out what laws say... that he really tries to help and make a difference. Not all judges are that way here of course, which is why I approached the bailiff and talked with him.

Violence against a direct and aggressive insult is partially accepted here... and it works. I personally believe that is part of why "we" are so polite here, we learn to be. It isn't about fear, it is about respect. It isn't like we are afraid to get our ass kicked for insulting each other, it is about being concerned that we offend someone that we really don't want or mean to... just because we have different views. It is about knowing that you can't been a jerk to others just because someone made a blanket law that says I can't personally hold you accountable for actions against me, even if they are verbal.

Most people learn to be smart-asses because there is no consequence... but there is here. Violence is not the solution to all problems by any means, but it can serve as motivation to learn alternate POSITIVE social interaction habits.

At the expense of popularity... in person, if I received some the mean and aggressive attitudes I see on this forum, I would kick your ass... not "for me" but because it might help you learn a better way to be. In all the people I have slapped on the pavement in my life, I never once had to shoot anyone. If you don't like that attitude, well you don't have to... but in person, is best not to mention you don't like it very aggressively. I would say most people around here are very comfortable agreeing to disagree and can discuss it. But when the name calling starts, or you can't respect that we have different views, lets just walk away and maybe try again later.

It also isn't even about "anger", it is about defending yourself against attacks... verbal or otherwise. If someone is breaking into your home to hurt you and your family, you aren't angry when you defend yourself. Difference of view is not an attack, or a reason to attack, nor a reason to insult... and without consequence, then you are likely to develop a culture or mentality where jerk-like behavior dominate.

If the views are TOO different like their religion requires them to "purge you" from existence if you disagree, then it is best to walk away... quickly... because there is no way to negotiate or even discuss something that absolute... but that is for another thread on another day.

But being a Jerk is a choice, not a characteristic and not a "way" to be accepted. Jerkism is to be stamped out, just like racism... with laws and force if that is what it takes for people to learn it is OK not to agree about things... I think most people that are Jerks just never had incentive to learn another way to be. The ones that can't learn not to be, well, that is why they make prisons.

So I don't agree with Lotan about Americans acting like Jerks is part of the culture though. Maybe that was more of a joke or little poke in the eye or jab like he does though... I know Lotan can discuss things without being a jerk though.

I think it is more a choice by individuals who have never had motivation to learn social interaction skills and to respect others views. I just have to add that over the years as I have explained my view as I have above, there is one group of people who never understand this idea as a whole... and that is fear-based people. If everything that motivates you is fear (like some Christians who "act nice" because they are afraid to burn in hell or whatever) then you will have a good bit of difficulty understanding respect that is not fear based. But anyway, this has gotten too long for "forums" now anyway, so I will cut it short and try to refine it quickly and hope there isn't fallout this subject sometimes brings. There are some wise people on this system though. I am continually impressed watching the interactions of some of the members here.

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#58

A good example is the political view thread.
Although most people in there don't agree and there has been some heavy shouting matches, none of the major contributors have negative votes. There aren't many posts that are voted down (if any) and that isn't just because the thread is older than the system. Unlike other places (and perhaps contrary to fears of certain moderators in other forums) there isn't a lot of violence in politics or religion threads here because people learn to get along and agree to disagree, as MrBlackCat said.

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#59

View PostMr.Flibble, on 01 May 2011 - 10:24 AM, said:

A good example is the political view thread.
Although most people in there don't agree and there has been some heavy shouting matches, none of the major contributors have negative votes. There aren't many posts that are voted down (if any) and that isn't just because the thread is older than the system. Unlike other places (and perhaps contrary to fears of certain moderators in other forums) there isn't a lot of violence in politics or religion threads here because people learn to get along and agree to disagree, as MrBlackCat said.

I don't think I have looked at those... recently anyway. Maybe last year when I joined. Might check that out.

Teach to me express my ideas briefly. ;)

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The reputation system works well, combined with some policing. That's my conclusion, after being very skeptical.

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