[MrBlackCat]

Uh... I just have to comment here. Global Warming, as defined by main-stream media to the service of governments, as a way of justifying extorting money for studies, is a fact. If you research the original announcements, the issues with the studies, and the ORIGINAL reasons for the studie(s) which led the media/government using it for their own purposes, it gets clear.

If you disagree, that is fine, just keep it to yourself until YOU do the research. I spend a massive number of hours on this subject, and it took all of it to get a clear picture. BOTH "sides" are playing games I can assure you, but there IS a reality to it, if you do the research. There is mass data around this subject, that is accurate that wasn't found out after the "Agenda Studies" which are so commonly sited.

I will save you this bit of time however, the term "Climate Change" is/was the direct result of the need for a new "cause" when "Global Warming" was too easily proven to be natural and mostly with disregard to human existence. NO ONE is arguing the Carbon Footprint of humans, animals and the conveniently ignored MASSIVE footprint of Deciduous leaf decay and other natural emissions, but the too often ignored stat is how fast nature is consuming it. (super-simplified here)

The early data and the reasons it snowballed into the "Next big money exploitation cause" and why "Climate Change" was rushed in as Damage Control, is clearly out there to be Googled...

Maybe someone should start a thread so we can start getting people up to speed on this, as it will take many hours to grasp the "real" picture here, but it will take many hundreds of post to get educated first, then look at the data, then ignore the sensationalism, then wrap your mind around some seriously large numbers. I had 18 pages of notes and a substantial spreadsheet and a bit of work in Math-Cad before I saw the light.

If anyone wants to really discuss this, bring your notes and start a thread... all this back and forth in the "One Liner World" of forums about something as complex and intentionally clouded as this issue is a waste of time... unless you like to make baseless arguments... then this is the correct venue I suppose.

I think everyone wants a better world until it becomes inconvenient. Technology changes as fast as big business and governments allow it, and we will do damage, clean it up, and be ok, just like with the mass smog of the 70's... but with that said, "Global Warming/Climate Change" is an exploitation medium, NOT a real attempt to clean up the environment.

Here is a parallel example... in the 70's and 80's when governments here in the US, REALLY came down on vehicle emissions, a lot of people didn't even realize what their "Smog Pump" was on their vehicle... basically all it did was pump fresh air into the exhaust pipe to dilute the exiting exhaust... the actual emission of pollution was completely unchanged. Fool the machine is all that was required by the government. The point is that technology improved later and efficiency increased and this method is no longer used or needed for the most part. We will catch up and it will all be ok, without extorting taxes to research things inefficiently with fake/fronted companies. Fuel Cells and Fusion Reactors will likely be a good way to lean before too long.

So to be clear, I am not at all against a cleaner world and reduced emissions, which will happen... but I am against extortion of taxes in the name of doing it. Realistic regulations on pollution is the key, in my opinion. In retrospect, most humans seem to like the whole "screw it" now, and "damage control" later way of life anyway. (e.g. debt, health etc) "Don't worry! We can fix it later!"

Oh well... I can't seem to make the post any shorter without it meaning even less, so I guess...

"READY! FIGHT!"
Hehehe...

MrBlackCat

[Mark]

Sounds like we would be in agreement on many aspects. I may not be as well versed as you from the sound of things, but I'm way past the bumper sticker replies. I too have been following this subject for a lot of years. I agree it would need to be a very ambitious undertaking to flesh this out propely in another thread. I know I'm not up to the challenge. Talking face to face has made one person see things my way and has another rethinking what he thought he knew. But doing it in posts is way too much effort for me.

[Wienerhole]

Hendricks266, on 20 February 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

Your claim is unfalsifiable nonsense.

I have a pet dragon.
>Where?

Stop when the light is red, Go when the light is green.
> What is this red and green nonsense you are talking about?
The top light is red, the bottom light is green.
> They are exactly the same. I just stop when the top light is brighter.
No, one is red, and one is green.
> You're strange.

Imagine how frustrating it would be to a person who could see Red/Green if Red/Green colorblindness was the norm.

Hendricks266, on 20 February 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

At that rate of delusion, why do you even believe that your senses are reliable ways to take in information about the world?

They *aren't*!

The delusion is believing they *are*. That's what all those "crazy" people are trying to tell you, when they tell you that your senses (the ones you are talking about at least) aren't enough... they keep you locked into a tiny window of awareness.

[Ronin]

Humph.

How can anyone really be sure of what's "going on" from our positions/perspectives?

I used to think that way now I think this way.

How are you sure this way is not another that way?

There is a problem with corrupt scientists, there is also a problem with disinformation and conspiracy theorists.

You need to root through the mess and find the most plausible answer (based on evidence) and go with that until a better one is offered, any other way will make you lost so far down a rabbit hole you'll forget what you were looking for in the first place.

We are all fucked either way, it's only a matter of time. Until then I will enjoy us trying to make sense of things one pixel at a time until the screen forms an image that really does make sense.

[Hendricks266]

CharlesT, on 20 February 2015 - 06:22 PM, said:

Don't conflate the scientific method with the Cult of Science. The criticism that is growing is against the cult, not the method.

Trusting your senses (once vetted and confirmed) and physicalism are both reliable.

CharlesT, on 20 February 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

Imagine how frustrating it would be to a person who could see Red/Green if Red/Green colorblindness was the norm..

Your Galileo example works well here. Analogy aside, you could build a spectrometer to fill in the gaps of our perception—which is more of an island in the sea of existence.

CharlesT, on 20 February 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

They *aren't*!

The delusion is believing they *are*. That's what all those "crazy" people are trying to tell you, when they tell you that your senses (the ones you are talking about at least) aren't enough... they keep you locked into a tiny window of awareness.

[Robman]

Hendricks, step 1: ... Admit you're sheltered and know precisely sweet dick all.

[Wienerhole]

Hendricks266, on 20 February 2015 - 07:29 PM, said:

Your Galileo example works well here. Analogy aside, you could build a spectrometer to fill in the gaps of our perception—which is more of an island in the sea of existence.

Assuming you live at a time and place where a spectrometer exists. That's your fence.

In semi-related news, The Lady got LASIK yesterday and a whole new world has emerged for her. Gonna go listen to an audio book in the dark with her. Guten Nacht Freunde!

And HT... I mean it... I think you might like my idea/offer.

[Hendricks266]

Robman, on 20 February 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

Hendricks, step 1: ... Admit you're sheltered and know precisely sweet dick all.

Got evidence?

[Hank]

Robman, on 20 February 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

The United States is upwards of 16 trillion dollars in debt, much of it to China. Much of it accrued in the Obahmah dictatorship.

Hmmmmm How will that be paid back?

The majority (65%) of debt is owned by the US government institutions and local investors. - China owns about 7%, yes, big player but so is Japan also 7%
How will this be paid back? Taxes. When? Soon

Should I go into global warming? It's a fact.
Is the extra carbon dioxide (monoxide) emissions the culprit? No clue. Based on my limit knowledge of chemistry and quantum physics it's utter non sense.
Do I support reduction in those poisonous emissions though? Yep. I see no reason why I want to breath in polluted air. You want to pollute, fine, pay for it.

[Robman]

It's more than that and it will be paid in physical property if it even gets paid back at all. Americas industry is gone, cars are the main pollutant in the US. The earth has weather cycles.
The pollution simply got moved to China, guess what .. many pollutants go in the air and ocean and the earth spins.
Ocean life is in serious decline by the way.
Global warming is a fallacy.
65% of Americas debt is owned by America? .. what? Guess what printing money does ...

Look forward to the dollar and euro to be brought down and a new currency to take it's place.

oh .. and chip implants that let you buy or sell. The Bible called it the Mark of the beast .. but you know, the Bible doesn't make sense, right?

When you're in the forest, it's hard to actually SEE the forest for the trees.
Gonna have a stupid look on your face when the Russians and Chinese are rounding you up.
Worry that this "crazy" person might be correct? You should be... ponder.. ponder hard.

You are being milked and poisoned before being discarded.


@Hendricks: Got intuition?

[Jimmy]

Global warming being caused by humans is a myth. It's a plot by the elites to slowly have people accept the fact that we're leaving an ice age and there's nothing we can do to stop it... or survive it. Except ditch the planet.

But you just don't have enough money to join them.

[Robman]

Whatever the case may be, they wish to leave the planet or dwell within it OR download their consciousness into machines or genetic hybrids.
Yet they will not be spared.

These people really do believe they are genetically superior due to accumulating wealth. Yet their lack of morals is next to the only thing that got them there. Look at studies that present that fact that psychopaths make good CEOs. This is why they selectively breed and then implement their nepotism.

Stop listening to the violins as the titanic sinks. We the people actually could do something about all this if we were organized against them and not fractured, it's called divide and conquer.

[Person of Color]

Mark., on 20 February 2015 - 07:00 PM, said:

Person of Color.....Conservatives fight against the man-made global warming nonsense because the overwhelming amount of " fixes " require the creation of even larger government taking away more of our choices and freedoms while spending like drunk sailors with little to no regard for debts and deficits. The left wants to believe it because all of those things fit their political ideology.The junk science is another issue too large to tackle here.

The fixes are pretty simple:

1. Scale back fossil fuels, natural gas is shit and not a solution
2. Phase in nuclear energy instead
3. Develop better electric cars, and still let me drive my fuel sucking V8 (Trust me, most people won't want internal combustion when this gets popular)
4. SCALE BACK GLOBALIZATION. Divide and conquer prevents this. China has smog four times worse than LA in the 70's and glowing rivers of toxic shit. Corporatism is a race to the bottom.

The elite make too much money. They don't give a fuck.

Robman, on 20 February 2015 - 08:44 PM, said:

It's called divide and conquer.

Try telling that to The Cold War Kids. We're fucked as long as Boomers and Gen X are in power. These people won't talk to their own neighbors because of their political views, which are all premade canned bullshit anyway. Their extremism, polarization, and lackadaisical attitude is disgusting. You're supposed to abandon that world view after your 20's, not take in media that just confirm your bias well into retirement age. There's more to this world than "liberal" and "conservative." The other side isn't "evil" and yours isn't "trustworthy," it's all shit people. It's allllllllll shit. All of it. It's engineered to be shitty plebian ideology. If it was good, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Reagan was a preachy scumbag, Bush 1 was a CIA shill, Clinton was a smooth talking liar, Bush 2 was a fucking war criminal and Obama is literally Reagan 2.0 except he's black and likes gay people, but oh no he's the most liberal president ever.

Seriously Obama is Chocolate Reagan. He's smoother, he's creamier, but he's still made by Hershey's so he faintly smells of vomit and tastes like ass.

Gun control? Reagan really kicked that up a notch.
Obamaphones? Guess who ACTUALLY started that program with more expensive landlines! (And then Bush II made it cellular)
The Affordable Care Act? How about Cobra and mandatory Emergency Room care! All three are shit!
Fast and Furious? How about arms for hostages?
Preachy, inspiring speeches that endorse policies with the reverse effect of what those speeches encourage? It's all shady shit behind those doors, and they're both guilty.
A cabinet stocked with corporatist shills and criminals? Check, check and check!
Expansion of the number of people on welfare due to right wing corporatist economic policies! Yes and double yes!

A decade filled with vapid pop culture, hideous fashion, flagrant narcissism, and bleepy, bloopy, shitty pop music?

Now we have two! Except a lot of cool shit still happened in the 80's. I can't wait to tell my adopted kids about how lucky they are not to have lived through the 2010's.

P.S. What I'm bitching about here goes double for you current college age types, you somehow manage to be even worse than your parents. Oh, sorry, I forgot my trigger warning. Safety's off and everyone's a faggot!

[Person of Color]

Damn that got discombobulated. I just really hate the current political culture of this country.

[Mblackwell]

Obama's better than Reagan, at least he's thought about things a bit. Reagan didn't have a brain left, just acting ability.

[Hank]

Robman, on 20 February 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

It's more than that and it will be paid in physical property if it even gets paid back at all. Americas industry is gone, cars are the main pollutant in the US. The earth has weather cycles.
The pollution simply got moved to China, guess what .. many pollutants go in the air and ocean and the earth spins.
Ocean life is in serious decline by the way.
Global warming is a fallacy.
65% of Americas debt is owned by America? .. what? Guess what printing money does ...

Look forward to the dollar and euro to be brought down and a new currency to take it's place.

oh .. and chip implants that let you buy or sell. The Bible called it the Mark of the beast .. but you know, the Bible doesn't make sense, right?

When you're in the forest, it's hard to actually SEE the forest for the trees.
Gonna have a stupid look on your face when the Russians and Chinese are rounding you up.
Worry that this "crazy" person might be correct? You should be... ponder.. ponder hard.

You are being milked and poisoned before being discarded.


@Hendricks: Got intuition?

Guess again.

Since you mention the Bible, the Jewish faith was invented so Abraham did not have to sacrifice his first borne. As you know, to guaranty a good harvest people sacrificed their first bornes to the gods. Abraham invented a new god, and it worked. his son did not get killed.

Now, the New Religion is here, and I am part of it. Go ahead, find the obvious fallacies. Those can be sorted out. Christianity of old did get incorporated into the Roman Empire so will Global Warming in the current empires. And China ows more cash than the US and Beijing want to breath better air too, therefore that religion will take hold there too. Yes, let the milking begin. New enforced technology is a cash cow for those willing to adapt. But it's a free country, fight against it, and eventually get left behind

[Mark]

You are confusing air pollution and climate change ( which is mostly about carbon dioxide )

[Wienerhole]

Mblackwell, on 21 February 2015 - 06:16 AM, said:

Obama's better than Reagan, at least he's thought about things a bit. Reagan didn't have a brain left, just acting ability.

"I like puppet king O better than puppet king R... he's way better at getting into character and convincing me he's not just following a script."

Person of Color, on 20 February 2015 - 10:49 PM, said:

Bush 1 was a CIA shill

I see him as the only one that might have had some legitimate power in and of himself. Losing to Clinton was brilliant. What better way to prime the pump of blind faith Republicans to rally behind a son out of "revenge/payback" who would otherwise be unelectable.

Person of Color, on 20 February 2015 - 10:49 PM, said:

We're fucked as long as Boomers and Gen X are in power.

It's not "generations" in power. It's the same "type" of people that have been in power for as long as we have records. Either you are willing to turn human beings into slaves or you aren't. If you aren't... you won't wind up in power. Either you are willing to kill to get your way, or you aren't. If you aren't... you will wind up overpowered by those who are. I don't want slaves and I'm not willing to pre-emptively kill (and can't say I know whether I'm willing/capable of defensive killing either as it's never been tested). Therefore I will never be in *real* power... no matter what generation is currently the dominant sycophant underclass.

Hank, on 21 February 2015 - 06:21 AM, said:

But it's a free country...

Pass me some some of that freedom dope.

Hank, on 21 February 2015 - 06:21 AM, said:

...fight against it, and eventually get left behind

Sure thing Borg.

I take that back, as long as you are willing to leave me behind then that's cool. I've already begun volunteering, which is why this is my phone:

[Fox]

MrBlackCat, on 20 February 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

Uh... I just have to comment here. Global Warming, as defined by main-stream media to the service of governments, as a way of justifying extorting money for studies, is a fact. If you research the original announcements, the issues with the studies, and the ORIGINAL reasons for the studie(s) which led the media/government using it for their own purposes, it gets clear.

Hold on, global warming is not a fact. It's only a theory by definition. There may be strong evidence to support it, but it's circumstantial.

For example, a woman dies and the cause of her death was poisoning. Her husband was caught on tape buying poison and gloves that day. You may say he probably is the killer. However that's not a fact.

[Wienerhole]

I think MrBlackCat was suggesting that "a way of justifying extorting money" was the fact, not the warming theory itself.

[Fox]

Oops.

[Wienerhole]

It was an excellent analogy though.

[Hank]

CharlesT, on 21 February 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

Pass me some some of that freedom dope.

Knowledge and information. It's one thing one can get readily and freely in America.
Yet, most just see the negative, and feel like a Donald.

CharlesT, on 21 February 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

Sure thing Borg.

What? Never heard of him. I ain't greenpiece and too lacy to search.
In construction, high efficient energy plants are a cash cow. Don't believe? Fine. All engineers that ignored the signals and environment wave are now on welfare lamenting the good old days. Yeah, yeah.

[Wienerhole]

Hank, on 21 February 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

Knowledge and information. It's one thing one can get readily and freely in America.

I can have all the knowledge and information about growing food, collecting water, etc... but if I risk going to jail for doing so... that ain't freedom dope.

Also... what Robman, Mark., Drek, myself, and others have been trying to offer 'round these parts is some knowledge and information that is also freely available about what all this effort is about. The people pushing it and pushing it hard have a goal in mind and they have not hidden it... and it has nothing to do with making your life better. It's been written about extensively, though not widely advertized except as Hollywood movies. Because when people see it in a movie, they immediately disassociate the concept to the realm of fiction and have a genuinely difficult time recognizing it when it's happening in real life in more mundane ways.

There is a goal with all this technology... it's not a spontaneous development. Also there is a reason *certain* technologies are pushed hard and others are ignored. If it can't be controlled centrally, it's not on the agenda.

Hank, on 21 February 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

What? Never heard of him. I ain't greenpiece and too lacy to search.

Well when you take your panties off, the search should be easy.

Hank, on 21 February 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

In construction, high efficient energy plants are a cash cow. Don't believe? Fine. All engineers that ignored the signals and environment wave are now on welfare lamenting the good old days. Yeah, yeah.

You might misunderstand. I'm not inherently anti-technology. I'm talking specifically about the goal driven group of people who have been documenting for a long time their ultimate vision for the application of all this stuff. Centralized control of technology humans are utterly dependent upon in order to then control human beings in any way they wish.

It's not hidden and perhaps you genuinely want to live in a world where you wake up and are told what you prefer today, and what role you must play if you want to continue living.

“Diet, injections, and injunctions will combine, from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable, and any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible. Even if all are miserable, all will believe themselves happy, because the government will tell them that they are so.” – Bertrand Russell, The Impact of Science on Society, 1952

I don't have or often use GPS because I don't want to find myself incapable of navigating if I don't have it, or should it be useful to certain people to disable the system for the common folk. I'm not anti GPS (I used GPS in Curacao so I could focus on vacation rather than maps, for example)... just anti-dependency on it. There is no longer even a debate on what happens to people who find themselves without GPS who have been using it for a decent amount of time. They can't even navigate their own city, much less somewhere foreign to them.

[Wienerhole]

TLDR: Of *course* certain things are cash cows. The cash is the carrot on the stick.

[Robman]

Thankfully the medium of the "free" internet still exists, people can still be warned. That medium is currently under attack however because it is actually effective.
The countries we think of as "free" have been undermined and sold out. Factions are in place by way of sleeper cells of the Jihad/Chinese and Russian variety. They will be used to enforce "martial law" because the native born sons and daughters will see this situation for what it is and not comply.

The "naysayers" of this topic should be thankful for the few people in here willing to speak up about this atrocity that has gone on for much too long. We are being held in a prison and it will take a collective kick to knock the doors from their hinges.

For those who really are unaware of all of this, please wake up.. you are very late to the game and it is very advanced in it's implementation.

Now, if you are aware of this evil taking place and are all for it, than by all means.. hold your cell phone tightly to your head, watch as much smartTv as you can, drink as much fluoridated water as possible, get every vaccine being pushed. Only keep a weeks worth of food on hand. Don't learn any survival skills and whatever else keeps you a good sheep.

[Mark]

Hank, believe what you want. But please leave a post here with a link when battery powered commercial airplanes, trains and long haul semi-trucks are cheap and available. And let us know the color of the sky in that world as you stare up at the windmills that are not spinning that week because of lack of wind. Or the solar panels not producing much because of cloudy conditions. You will be joining those engineers in wishing for the good old days of cheap and reliable fossil fuels. We will have to turn away from them someday but not anytime soon because no viable alternative exists to replace it yet in the volumes of energy we use. The exception is nuclear power but that has its own set of risks.

[Hank]

CharlesT, on 21 February 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

You might misunderstand. I'm not inherently anti-technology. I'm talking specifically about the goal driven group of people who have been documenting for a long time their ultimate vision for the application of all this stuff. Centralized control of technology humans are utterly dependent upon in order to then control human beings in any way they wish.

It's not hidden and perhaps you genuinely want to live in a world where you wake up and are told what you prefer today, and what role you must play if you want to continue living.

"Diet, injections, and injunctions will combine, from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable, and any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible. Even if all are miserable, all will believe themselves happy, because the government will tell them that they are so." – Bertrand Russell, The Impact of Science on Society, 1952

I don't have or often use GPS because I don't want to find myself incapable of navigating if I don't have it, or should it be "useful" to certain people to disable the system for the common folk. I'm not anti GPS (I used GPS in Curacao so I could focus on vacation rather than maps, for example)... just anti-dependency on it. There is no longer even a debate on what happens to people who find themselves without GPS who have been using it for a decent amount of time. They can't even navigate their own city, much less somewhere foreign to them.

Well, let's see. From my point of view there are two camps. Coal and Oil and those who want to replace it. I chose the latter, for a very long time.
Do I actually believe what is being preached right now? No, but I do not fight against it either. You may view me as a fool, yet so far government on both sides of the border, US and Canada implemented oil limiting laws and taxes. Forcing technology to adapt.

As for the global control, right now those that control the oil (not only produce it) pretty much run things. If technology spreads out and reduces or even eliminates that dependency on one or two energy sources, that control is then diversified.

To top it all off, we are getting snowed in shall we continue when it's hot and humid again

@ Mark, why don't you get a government grand, select a team and find alternative ways for planes to fly.

[Mark]

I'm waiting to hop a ride on a flying pig. I'm also for alternatives to fossil fuel. But wind and solar both need fossil fuel backups for large scale use. So not much is gained by forcing their use through wasteful government handouts of taxpayer money to the politician's friends only to have many of those companies go belly up. IIRC over in Europe they have seen their folly ( somewhat ) and are contemplating an increase in fossil fuel use. Imagine that.

[Hank]

Mark., on 21 February 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

I'm waiting to hop a ride on a flying pig. I'm also for alternatives to fossil fuel. But wind and solar both need fossil fuel backups for large scale use. So not much is gained by forcing their use through wasteful government handouts of taxpayer money to the politician's friends only to have many of those companies go belly up. IIRC over in Europe they have seen their folly ( somewhat ) and are contemplating an increase in fossil fuel use. Imagine that.

Yes, because Europe is oil hungry too; and the US is stocking up with oil as we speak; Oil and more Oil, let's keep the status quo.

@ CharlesT

I don't think Beer will replace oil, or am I doomed as this brewery was?

Either way, time to shuffle snow out and about facing up with global warming