[Forge]

My second map.

http://msdn.duke4.net/hotduke234.shtml



Thanks Mikko

[Jinroh]

The map looks great I'll give it a play after work tonight. I like the theme. hehe.

[Jan Satcitananda]

Wow, that volumetric sprite bridge and a yellow cap detailed like a HRP model were amazing =) Thank you for this, very nice level.
Unfortunately, numerous critical flaws let players access areas they aren't supposed to enter (and get squished often). Also, I had a strange HoM glitch in the door of the final location, and the game tends to freeze frequently there. The blue keylock doesn't work well due to tagged sectors around it.
Here's my speedrun, btw: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=KQk-f8kTOmI

Great designed map, but badly tested. I think it should be revised with those errors fixed. Personally, I would beta-test your next map.

[Forge]

CraigFatman, on Mar 8 2010, 10:20 PM, said:

Wow, that volumetric sprite bridge and a yellow cap detailed like a HRP model were amazing =) Thank you for this, very nice level.
Unfortunately, numerous critical flaws let players access areas they aren't supposed to enter (and get squished often). Also, I had a strange HoM glitch in the door of the final location, and the game tends to freeze frequently there. The blue keylock doesn't work well due to tagged sectors around it.
Here's my speedrun, btw: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=KQk-f8kTOmI

Great designed map, but badly tested. I think it should be revised with those errors fixed. Personally, I would beta-test your next map.

lol That's hilarious. I could fix most of that in about 15 minutes.

[Danukem]

CraigFatman, on Mar 8 2010, 07:20 PM, said:

The blue keylock doesn't work well due to tagged sectors around it.

I had a difficult time with that as well. I tried using it for a few minutes until I finally took a step back from it and then it worked.

CraigFatman, on Mar 8 2010, 07:20 PM, said:

Here's my speedrun, btw: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=KQk-f8kTOmI

Haha, that's great.

[Jan Satcitananda]

I just found a 56-second route bypassing ALL locks and doors. And yes, it's pretty easy to fix.

[Stabs]

i half expect you too end up in a room with 3 green pipes asking what level you want to warp too when you jump up into that area

[Forge]

DanM, on Mar 9 2010, 01:08 AM, said:

i half expect you too end up in a room with 3 green pipes asking what level you want to warp too when you jump up into that area

lol

The flaws have been fixed and an updated version sent to MSDN. When and if he posts it is up to Mikko.

Thanks for the opportunity to learn and improve

[Mikko]

I uploaded the fixed version.

CraigFatman, on Mar 9 2010, 06:20 AM, said:

Great designed map, but badly tested.

Okay, let's take a look:

Quote

Unfortunately, numerous critical flaws let players access areas they aren't supposed to enter (and get squished often).

By this logic games such as Half-Life have "numerous critical flaws" and are "badly tested" because hardcore players who study maps extra hard (i.e., screw every wall they can find) have managed to find unorthodox ways to complete some (most) of the maps.

Of course, to the vast majority of players such "bugs" are irrelevant. Beta testers are not supposed to approach maps as speedruns or hug every inch of them.

Quote

The blue keylock doesn't work well due to tagged sectors around it.

This was reported.

[Master Fibbles]

I disagree, Mikko. What CraigFatman did was walk across the canyon no one is supposed to get to (and should probably be 0 pixels of space between ceiling and floor). That is a critical flaw in a map. Areas like that (where the edge of the map is visible) should not be accessible.
To my recollection, there are no areas like that in most modern games (I'm not sure about Postal 2 though...they did some strange things).


btw, the jumping/crouching to get the red key from the water was pretty neat.

edit: I should probably download this map and play it. I haven't done much Duke in a while...

[Danukem]

Mr.Flibble, on Mar 9 2010, 11:37 AM, said:

That is a critical flaw in a map.

Maybe so, but in any case the map has already been fixed and it doesn't follow that the map was "badly tested" by Mikko. I'm sure Mikko made many helpful comments and it's not reasonable to expect one volunteer tester to find every flaw.

It's easy for us to get into pointless arguments by making overstated criticisms or over-reacting to criticisms. I've been involved in a few of those myself over the years, and I'm really trying to avoid that nowadays.

EDIT: Actually, MRCK, another mapper and experienced player, was also a tester, so it wasn't just Mikko.

[Forge]

Mikko didn't test it to look for flaws, he tested it to look at the alien/health/weapon/ammo ratio. That's it. Bad beta-testing by Mikko isn't even in the equation for my error in leaving those walls unblocked. I received a similar report from MRCK, but I don't know if he was looking for design flaws or not.

I'm sure the beta-testers did not open the map with mapster and pick it apart looking for chinks to exploit.

Bottom line is I made the mistake, it's my error. I don't find this to be a bad or negative thing. I learned something from my mistake and I can use that for any future maps.


As far as is this a critical mistake? Yes. It's an exploit to bypass the playable area and complete the map in an unintended way. But quite a few of the original maps and alot of user maps have them as well.

[Jblade]

Quote

To my recollection, there are no areas like that in most modern games (I'm not sure about Postal 2 though...they did some strange things).

I got stuck in a few places in Mass Effect 2, a AAA title that most likely cost several million dollars to make.

I can't even fucking believe a small flaw in Forge's level is actually receiving this kind of attention. Who gives a shit? Do some people here genuinelly not have anything better to do than dryhump every wall in a level looking for exploits?

[Mikko]

Mr.Flibble, on Mar 9 2010, 09:37 PM, said:

I disagree, Mikko. What CraigFatman did was walk across the canyon no one is supposed to get to (and should probably be 0 pixels of space between ceiling and floor). That is a critical flaw in a map. Areas like that (where the edge of the map is visible) should not be accessible.

Of course you're not supposed to get there but you really have to be looking for exploits in order to end up there in the first place.

I appreciate spotting such flaws as a technical curiosity but making a number out of them ("badly tested") is a sign of unwarranted arrogance, i.e., exaggerating and flaunting with technical details that are of little relevance to the vast majority.

Quote

To my recollection, there are no areas like that in most modern games

Then you obviously haven't played modern games.

[Gambini]

It´s still a good attention to details and always usefull when the mapper is still able to fix these problems. If you read behind his message, CraigFatman just exposed very usefull information.

[Jan Satcitananda]

I forgot to report this:

Apparently, the window should be impassable, since jumping into it results in skipping a solid part of the level.

Also, what's this? (wrong altitude?)

[Forge]

CraigFatman, on Mar 9 2010, 08:09 PM, said:

I forgot to report this:
23_4_a.jpg
Apparently, the window should be impassable, since jumping into it results in skipping a solid part of the level.

Also, what's this? (wrong altitude?)
23_4_b.jpg

The window gap is intentional. If the player chooses to try to exploit that route they also choose to by bypass the two secrets, an RPG and an atomic health. So it's the player's option, short route or a chance for bonus items.

The second one has been fixed, you have an older version.

[Jan Satcitananda]

Ugh sorry, I thought I had the latest revision...

[Jinroh]

In an epic speed run I finally finished it in 61:19. Great map.

[Spiker]

Good map. Just too many switches IMO

[Forge]

In hindsite, I could have eliminated a couple of those switches in the second building. But I figured they're all in a relatively close area so it isn't epically bad. I'll keep it in mind for future projects though.

Now go play "We Store Your Crap" then come back and play my map again so you won't be as irritated about the switches.

[Stabs]

Just finished playing it

Personally i would of used all those cut off areas you made to the extend the map rather than getting extra length by holding up the player finding buttons,

Other small gripes i had was the abandoned building had its front door right next to fenced of railway tracks, logically no one in their right mind would make a building with train tracks at the front door & probably would of made the entrance to the train station a station platform instead, thats just me, it must have logic & reason

Gameplay wise it held up pretty good, a little light on ammo at the train station, Overall though you do have potential as a good mapper, your sprite work is probably the most standout aspect of the map, every door wasn't a ceiling door either which shows your prepared to code that little bit extra, and you bothered to do lighting which is always a plus in my books

your flow is good with changing locations that are not of the usual variety which is good for keeping the map fresh, you just need to work on a way to advance your maps rather than using the button hunt, you have more of an action style.

it will be interesting too see how your next map pans out.

[Mikko]

Forge, on Mar 10 2010, 02:05 PM, said:

Now go play "We Store Your Crap" then come back and play my map again so you won't be as irritated about the switches.

That reminds me:

In Craig's video, you can see him taking the red key by walking against the aquarium glass. In We Store Your Crap! you need to get a pack of pipebombs this way in order to continue (as if players knew this is even possible).

So, what exactly happens there?

(I actually tried to get the red key in Forge's map this way, but I tried it only for a few seconds as a normal player would.)

Gambini said:

If you read behind his message, CraigFatman just exposed very usefull information.

And I acknowledged this, but criticized his overblown attitude concerning the relevance of that information to the vast majority.

[Fox]

I played this. I couldn't find the blue card, so I didn't finished it.

The maps is good in details. It has an massive amount of flat sprites. The arrangement of flat sprites doesn't flow well in certain parts, and the misaligned textures won't go unnoticed, but that's not very important.

I liked the vehicles. They use some very basic construction and textures, still I enjoyed them.

The gameplay is nice, lot of spawning monsters and puzzles.

Some notes:
- Maybe exceeded in switches? You have rooms which every door need a switch inside another door...
- I would recommend use less sprite work in certain areas, as it turns hard to find the switches. Also not use sprites that looks like switches as decoration.

[Headless_Horseman]

A very nice map. I loved the part with the toxic waste dump.

[Forge]

Thank you all for your comments and feedback.

DanM, on Mar 10 2010, 07:24 AM, said:

Other small gripes i had was the abandoned building had its front door right next to fenced of railway tracks, logically no one in their right mind would make a building with train tracks at the front door & probably would of made the entrance to the train station a station platform instead, thats just me, it must have logic & reason

Sorry your logic and reason don't agree with this real world location. It's an abandoned electricity plant in the middle of nowhere (150 miles, give or take, east of Missoula, Montana). I even put in the flipped over coal cart, the coal cart tracks leading to the coal chute which ended up in the coal bin in the basement, and the coal burning furnace.

No big deal, it's only a map anyway.