[MrFlibble]

Fox, on 26 June 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

Could you ask if there was one point at which you was supposed to rescue the babes like in Duke Nukem 64? Because the map design looks like so (i.e. the secret in E1L1 has one, etc).

By the way, I've always wondered, have the captured babes as a game been in any way inspired by Halloween Harry?

And on a more general notes, have other titles published by Apogee serve as sources of ideas for Duke3D? There's no doubt about the in-house developed Rise of the Triad, but what about the aforementioned Halloween Harry, Bio Menace and Blake Stone?

Halloween Harry has the rescuable damsels-in-distress who are covered in green slime, a jetpack and a flamethrower.



Blake Stone has force fields, ceiling mounted turrets, self-destruct hover drones, and a "sort of" teleporting enemy. Also, the security guards in blue uniforms are shown to have been called "rent-a-cop"s on the pre-release screenshots.

Minigunner, on 26 June 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

As long as there are legal issues concerning the Duke franchise, they cannot release it (even then, I doubt they would anyways for personal reasons).

Actually, I can hardly imagine what those "legal reasons" are - unless this is somehow related to recent licensing issues that have to do with Gearbox, of which I have only a vague notion. Otherwise there is absolutely no reason not to make pre-release stuff available (except if it is a full pre-release build of the game that more or less equals the commercial version, of course), if all of that beta material is licensed properly. After all, they did release LameDuke, didn't they?

[Minigunner]

They released LameDuke as a 1-year-anniversary gift to the fans (it was also the closest build they had to one year before Duke3D's release). Also, you do know that Joe has shut down beta-recreation projects that have been posted on the 3DR forums before, right?

[Micky C]

Minigunner, on 26 June 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

They released LameDuke as a 1-year-anniversary gift to the fans (it was also the closest build they had to one year before Duke3D's release). Also, you do know that Joe has shut down beta-recreation projects that have been posted on the 3DR forums before, right?

Things are probably different since 3DRealms was "shut down". Given that and their current major law suit with Gearbox, they're probably not uber concerned with beta remakes at the moment. Not that anyone's really tried doing anything that risky since that time so I'll admit it's hard to tell.

[TerminX]

Minigunner, on 26 June 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

They released LameDuke as a 1-year-anniversary gift to the fans (it was also the closest build they had to one year before Duke3D's release). Also, you do know that Joe has shut down beta-recreation projects that have been posted on the 3DR forums before, right?

Ha, you don't have to worry about any bull like that happening ever again. The day anyone goes after anyone in this community for something like that is the day a whole huge can of worms that nobody wants to get into is opened.

[Radar]

Explain further. Why was it easy to silence projects like that then, but not now?

[Fox]

Because that was 3DRealms forums, while this one belongs to fans?

[Minigunner]

Joe was one of the people running the 3DRealms forums. This site isn't really connected with 3DR/Gearbox.

[Radar]

So there technically were no legal issues? Just Joe not wanting certain things on his board?

[Minigunner]

Said legal issues actually apply to releasing more beta material than just LameDuke, and not to beta recreations. Also, Joe was acting on behalf of 3DRealms anyways.

[MrFlibble]

Minigunner, on 26 June 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

Also, you do know that Joe has shut down beta-recreation projects that have been posted on the 3DR forums before, right?

In shutting down beta recreation projects, 3DRealms are protecting their copyright. It's not the same as releasing beta builds to public. Actually, if say the Duke3D beta v0.99 were released officially, but with such a license that expressly forbade any use of data within the beta without official permission, the beta recreation projects would be removed all the same.

Minigunner, on 26 June 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

Said legal issues actually apply to releasing more beta material than just LameDuke, and not to beta recreations. Also, Joe was acting on behalf of 3DRealms anyways.

So what exactly are those legal issues anyway? From what I know, it's more about the fact that for some reason, 3D Realms is just unwilling to make beta material public.

The real legal hindrance would only arise if the copyright to the beta materials was transferred to some other entity, like Gearbox or whatever. Or if individual artists who have contributed to the project had their work licensed so that it could not be released without their permission.

But if 3D Realms does own all the necessary rights to the beta Duke3D stuff, there should really be no legal issues there, just a matter of not willing to do so, which is their unalienable right.

[Jimmy]

Minigunner, on 26 June 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Yeah it doesn't matter if anyone at 3DRealms has the material or not. As long as there are legal issues concerning the Duke franchise, they cannot release it (even then, I doubt they would anyways for personal reasons).

As far as I understand it, 3D Realms owns all materials relating to Duke3D.

MrFlibble, on 26 June 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

Blake Stone has force fields, ceiling mounted turrets, self-destruct hover drones, and a "sort of" teleporting enemy. Also, the security guards in blue uniforms are shown to have been called "rent-a-cop"s on the pre-release screenshots.

Just a note, I think you're from across the pond and I dunno if you guys call'em that over there, but Rent-A-Cop is a common negative euphemism over here for security guards.

Radar, on 26 June 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

So there technically were no legal issues? Just Joe not wanting certain things on his board?

Pretty much. Joe was full of shit. He had all kinds of shit shut down that he had absolutely no grounds to. People were just scared "OHMAGERD HE'S GONNA TAKE ME TO COURT OVER A MODIFICATION FOR A FIFTEEN YEAR OLD GAME!" People are gullible and easily scared, and ol' Joe knew that.

[MrFlibble]

Jimmy, on 27 June 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Just a note, I think you're from across the pond and I dunno if you guys call'em that over there, but Rent-A-Cop is a common negative euphemism over here for security guards.

Yes, I didn't know it's a common phrase, thanks! Anyway, I think it still could be some sort of inspiration for the Pig Cops.

Another thing I forgot about Blake Stone: STAR Troopers will sometimes drop on the floor, but then get up again after some time. This feature was later used with Lightning Guards in Rise of the Triad. Unlike ROTT and Duke3D though, the unconscious STAR Trooper uses a different sprite and can thus be identified by the player (you can't do anything about them in this state though, and have to wait until they get back up).

Also, I think Blake Stone is the first FPS game to use randomized pickup drops from enemies. Human guards may drop used ammo packs or food tokens (or nothing at all); also they will drop a weapon type that you don't have, but that mechanic is the same as in Wolfenstein 3-D. Used ammo packs are visually different from new ones BTW, in that a new pack has two green lights on it, while a used one has one red light instead of green. Also, I've never bothered to check really but IIRC the documentation says that the amount of charges in a used ammo pack depends on how many shots that enemy fired.

[leilei]

Would you go further to claim how Duke Nukem Forever recycles Ken's Labyrinth?

[MrFlibble]

Well, there are drinking fountains in Ken's Labyrinth, and the art is almost the same as in Duke3D, so yeah.

I haven't played much further Ken's Labyrinth than the beginning of level two so I can't come up with more examples. There are bats there, much like in LameDuke but bats are generally an overused trope and they haven't made it to the final game anyway.

BTW, a slot machine (like in Ken's Labyrinth level one) would actually fit so well with the Duke3D setting. Well, we have the pool table so there's nothing to complain about

[Fox]

To think about it now, it's quite a surprise that there isn't a slot macine in Duke 3D. It should have been relatively easy to include one.

[MrFlibble]

Perhaps it's the question of what would serve as tokens - otherwise there's not real challenge in such a machine.

A similar thing would be the Pachinko machines that are found in the first level of Shadow Warrior, but they only work so as there's a certain chance of winning and getting an extra item (unless a cheat code is used that gives a 100% chance of winning every time). On the other hand, with the slot machine version in Ken's Labyrinth it is very easy to get lots of credits by simply saving and loading the game if you're not successful. Which kind of takes away the challenge in the first place. (Except you'll probably spend some time with the slot machine anyway, which will be deducted from the end-level score.)

[NNC]

Just another nitpick... the sequence of Death Row music (City Streets) have been altered for the retail version. The track can be divided into 6 parts, with one of them is an enhanced part. In the shareware versions the final part was the enhanced one, while in the retail version it's the 3rd part. It's not bad for the game, but in Youtube uploads people weren't aware of this and used the enhanced part in the middle.

[Radar]

I always found it interesting how the music in that level is in 5/4 time. I take it Lee Jackson wrote it?

[Jimmy]

Slot machines aren't really an Los Angeles thing. Remember, Duke wasn't a Vegas guy until DNF.

[Fox]

I wonder about the missing building, perhaps it didn't exist at the date the photo was taken?

[Radar]

OMG. Any details on the origins of that top photo?

[Fox]

It's just a random image I found on Google.

[Radar]

A quick google search reveals other similar photos. I suppose it's just a very common angle of the city. I think it's safe to say that the missing building was added just to make everything look fuller. That building doesn't exist in real life.

[Jimmy]

It could have existed in the 90's perhaps. Very good eye, Fox.

[Kathy]

Jimmy, on 30 June 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

It could have existed in the 90's perhaps.

If it was I highly doubt it would have been demolished unnoticed.

[Fox]

At least I couldn't find any photo with a building beetween the City National Plaza twin towers.

Here is a similar view of the city in daytime:



If anyone is wondering, the Hollywood sign in the paralaxed sky is very close to the real thing, except that it is located in the opposite direction:



Some additional info about the paralaxed sky texture:

• the aspect ratio has been adjusted properly.
  
• based on the height of the Union Bank Plaza and City National Plaza, the image is on a scale of 0.63 meters per pixel (assuming the image is an orthographic view).
  
• the horizon is on a height of 148.39 m from the ground of the buildings and from a distance of 81.19 m of the observer.

[NNC]

Radar, on 29 June 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

I always found it interesting how the music in that level is in 5/4 time. I take it Lee Jackson wrote it?

No, Bobby "Doom" Prince wrote it. Probably my favourite tune in the game. Even more than Stalker and Futurmil.

[NNC]

Fox, on 30 June 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

I wonder about the missing building, perhaps it didn't exist at the date the photo was taken?

Amazing find.

[Minigunner]

Another thing about the LA night sky in Duke3D: the clouds seem to be a 128-wide texture pasted behind the scenery. This is what I got out of it, with some edits to make it seamless:

Maybe they have the original cloud texture (probably 128x128), but I'm not certain of that.
In the meantime, this texture could be used to extend the LA sky infinitely upwards for Polymost.

Also, I can definitely see that some of the building textures are based off of some of those skyscrapers.
In that case, I may as well post the picture I took of downtown LA (as seen from the 5) while heading to Orange County, since it shows the colors of the buildings a bit better. Have fun guessing which building is which.

[Fox]

Speaking of the clouds, the episode 3 cutscene has a blueish starry sky instead.



In the PSX version it is set during dusk instead. I guess it makes sense since it looks sort of daytime in the levels (perhaps it could be used for the HRP too). Additionally the buildings match the real life ones.



Edit:

I realized that in v1.0 and v0.99 the paralaxed sky has a 5th tile, which solves the mistery of the building I posted before.

I moved that tile down (I didn't made that up, if you look at the tile you will know), and it filled the space beetween the City National Plaza twin towers. While it is missing the top, the bottom matches the real life buildings.

The tile that used to be there I moved to the left of the Hollywood sign, and it seems it is where it was intended to be. The reason I was confused was because they reused the building in the bottom for both tiles.



This is how I believe it was meant to be.