[taivo30]

Hello
Playing Koj Stil Borac level and can't seem to find where to insert the Red Card, any help would be appreciated!

[Ninety-Six]

taivo30, on 04 March 2023 - 08:03 AM, said:

Hello
Playing Koj Stil Borac level and can't seem to find where to insert the Red Card, any help would be appreciated!

You have to head into the underground area (the really deep underground, near the hive) and look for the well. It will be in one of the smaller rooms you can access by climbing up the slopes that border the arena. In that area, there's a hallway that leads into an alien elevator. Red key slot's up there.

There's a quicker way to the well from aboveground, but unfortunately I can't quite remember which of the drop points put you near it.

[Ninety-Six]

ck3D, on 04 March 2023 - 04:08 AM, said:

I remember my logic behind that secret originally was (and in part still is) that the room is full of Octabrains and so, rewarding the player who knows the game well enough to use the correct (explosive) weapons against them would be likely to blow the grate up by accident, which might catch their attention seeing it drop and so they would try going up there and be set up with a refill.

I actually was going to pepper them with devastator rounds at first, but then I remembered how many high-tier enemies were in the hive. I had seen the hive several times but then retreated when I saw all those minibosses, both in the higher slopes and the core arena. I wanted to clear out the rest of the level before moving against the hive. I felt it was way more important to conserve my ammo for that, which is why I then resorted to chaingunning the brains instead.

[ck3D]

The quickest way to the well is through the collapsed building right next to the arena (need to jetpack up there, this is basically the jetpack map), elevator to the red lock is in the next room after you've gone down (which should also blow up a wall behind you that just leads back to the underground arena). Sounds like I'll soon rearrange that part so that that whole sequencing is articulated a little better, I've been getting asked the same question by a few players now and it's just now that I'm realizing better ways to possibly orchestrate that section.

Point about making sense not to use explosives near the well also is a very good one, whole concept of the map is to stock up on gear above ground to then confront the hordes underground where not much can be found but shrinker ammo, so maybe encouraging the player to waste the Octas with the Devastator or RPG might only be so smart after all at least until the refill is better marked.

[William Gee]

Congras on the MSDN review https://msdn.duke4.n...blastradius.php
Im gonna continue this soon, still on level2.

[NNC]

Well, he certainly didn't make me rushing into Zarathustra, which I still haven't played. He literally bashed the map into pieces. I think Map11 is a bit of at fault for this, it's such a conclusive level, it really should have been the last map, behind Map12 and 13 too (or at least Map12/Zarathrustra).

I disagree with him at a few points, Norilsk is such a brilliant experience, it's still looming in my head. Such an outstanding way to show people the nasty living in Russia. This is art, nothing less. As for music, I kinda agree, but for me, the Paris map's song was a clear standout, it was damn catchy. And I like Map10 as well. Yes, it was dickish, and I was playing a beta with some fixed annoyances, but the map still impresses me with its colours.

[ck3D]

Thank you for the link Will I wasn't expecting a review to be up so quick!

@The Watchtower one thing I appreciate in Mikko's writing is his choice of words, he's really good at capturing the correct quality or intent. I think his review of Zarathustra is completely on point, that he described the gameplay as 'TOXIC' in capital letters only confirms to me I've achieved my goal, and also of course how you don't want to go back to Zarathustra since by all means no one should, and the map is literally designed to make the player feel like this - it's absolute hostility in the Build language, it's not faking it. Another word Mikko used to describe that level to me was 'restlessness', and then he told me Closure was 'agony' all the while probably not realizing yet that he was essentially calling the very basic concepts those two maps are purposefully based on, respectively and in succession. That he managed to be this accurate as early as just a couple of minutes into each and felt everything (even if it sounds like it barely fazed him) to me means success. To beat Blast Radius one needs not to be strong as a Duke player, which only matters so much, they need to be strong as a person. I wasn't surprised absolutely none of the testers ever finished it - not because they were weak, absolutely none was but because around Zarathustra starts feeling like too intense an experience for what most would expect out of a video game that is supposed to be entertainment, and one either is or isn't ready for restlessness and agony. That, or they spontaneously sensed how those parts by design should not be tested. I might elaborate on that more later after more of the end game has been brought up (or might not), but so far absolutely reaction I've seen or heard of (minus practical or technical complaints), seemingly good or bad has been a 100% hit in regards to everything I meant to possibly convey, and I'm very happy about that.

[Merlijn]

As I said in the beta, in a way Zarathustra reminded me of those superhard Mario Kaizo levels. Where the idea is that it's just ridicilously hard to the point of being trollish but finally beating the damn thing gives you a ton of gratification.I could be completely off here though? But it does sound like that was more or less your intention.

I expected Mikko to be critical of the combat based on his previous reviews, it mostly comes down to taste and large scale battles are usually not his cup of tea. Nonetheless he gave it a fair shot and clearly still enjoyed most of the episode. I'm surprised he liked map 4 to be honest

I'm in map 4, it's a lot easier to take out the Organtics now (but now the abundance of pipe bombs makes less sense, not that I'm complaining.. ).
I wish I had more spare time but I'll slowly go through the whole episode again and will leave a lenghty review here when I'm done. I feel like so much care went into this episode, it deserves all the feedback it can get. Sidenote: I noticed you changed the night sky for map 3, to be honest I wasn't sure about this at first but the brown sky ended up working better in the end (especially the entire skyline/docking area pops out even more now).

[ck3D]

Merlijn, on 06 March 2023 - 08:30 AM, said:

As I said in the beta, in a way Zarathustra reminded me of those superhard Mario Kaizo levels. Where the idea is that it's just ridicilously hard to the point of being trollish but finally beating the damn thing gives you a ton of gratification.I could be completely off here though? But it does sound like that was more or less your intention.

I expected Mikko to be critical of the combat based on his previous reviews, it mostly comes down to taste and large scale battles are usually not his cup of tea. Nonetheless he gave it a fair shot and clearly still enjoyed most of the episode. I'm surprised he liked map 4 to be honest

I'm in map 4, it's a lot easier to take out the Organtics now (but now the abundance of pipe bombs makes less sense, not that I'm complaining.. ).
I wish I had more spare time but I'll slowly go through the whole episode again and will leave a lenghty review here when I'm done. I feel like so much care went into this episode, it deserves all the feedback it can get. Sidenote: I noticed you changed the night sky for map 3, to be honest I wasn't sure about this at first but the brown sky ended up working better in the end (especially the entire skyline/docking area pops out even more now).

Yeah I felt the exact same regarding that sky change, I was merely experimenting with no true conviction at the very first but this new one just worked perfectly with all the browns, actually it was the only palette for that sky texture in particular or even option out of all possible sky tiles altogether really that to me topped the original choice in this specific context. Still conveyed the fogged vibes I intended, still had some blue to match the existing blues I had applied to the map to match the earlier sky; just looked cleaner and made the level a lot easier to read, also gave it more depth. I might have an idea of where to possibly use the old sky pick in a different and more fitting context anyway.

Major spoilers ahead (whole rest of post): in several ways Zarathustra is an allegory for purgatory (and then Closure is something past that). If a good way to look at Blast Radius is in thirds it's also because it was conceived like an interactive audiovisual poem or haiku, in particular it follows the basic structure explicitly exemplified in the Ramones song 'Judy Is A Punk' (itself inspired by the Herman's Hermits): second verse, same as the first in regards to the second sensible part and then third verse, different from the first when it comes to the brutal shift in the end game (that is also symbolized by the full horizontal to full vertical break during the ship sequence I've mentioned before). That is when it is revealed that all the 'nice' demolition from earlier was the cute decoy for video game settings it really always was and now the true experience of facing the real enemy starts (if one is ready and can dare face it). It only makes sense (and is supposed to make sense) most players will stop there if they want their video game experience to remain leisure and don't care for a serious fight against ??????????, after all at this point in the story no one should even have a reason to keep fighting unless it's downright personal.

Zarathustra's true central theme is deconstruction which it will do to expectations (also similarly to that Ramones song, where despite the title Jackie is the punk and Judy is a runt) but also and most importantly the one of Duke Nukem the character, universe and player. Deconstruction which literally happens to be anti-Build. The map in itself also is its own virtual monstrous organism complete with a heart, brain, liver, arteries and even memories (with a clear separation between accepted and rejected ones) that dissolves the known codes thus far. It's also designed to reflect one's cognitive interpretation of alien (as a concept) right back at them to test how they will handle that part of reality. Some will absorb it on the same unbiased level as any of the other challenges from prior, some will deny it, some will rush past it in hopes to focus on an imaginary goal but in the process ignore that substance in spite that it positively exists around them.

The gameplay there is the way it is as the means to convey all that as well as possibly more which might or might not perfectly tie into the lore depending on how attentive to detail one is. Past the level of all possible visuals or sophistication, all video game gameplay really comes down to a stupid, tighter or looser lead of inputs, which is what makes the experience interactive and communicative and a designer can use (and probably should on the same level as crafting environments) to manipulate certain frequencies within the player: repetition accompanied with heavy focus e.g.. 100 successive jumps on 64x64 Duke Nukem I-styled cubic platforms will generate frustration, very fast action combined with natural level flow and so optimally zero practical hindrance behind the wheel will result in a feeling of efficiency and domination. Blast Radius plays with that (and situational contrasts) the whole time through to result in different emotions in a way that almost seems nice at first and then Zarathustra is over an hour of non stop extreme yo yo (for a short time, even literally in one particular spot), where a lot of formerly passive involvement now is forced to become active just to keep existing (but also rewarded with peaks of empowerment and spectacle). It's the start of an actual dimension break (which also justifies the Spyborg line from the ship escape - 'where is the creator?'), why could only the player be able to push buttons, and now how do they react when they unexpectedly meet response? You have to want it to win in order to win there, and then even once you've technically won, then what have you learned?

Re: Closure testing by the way, to correct something I said earlier Aleks actually was devoted enough to traverse a rougher version of it which was my original vision to have zero clues anywhere. I almost reluctantly threw some in after I thought about it and realized maybe at least to a certain extent the level would need to work. Now probably is cooler anyway and makes just finishing Blast Radius more accessible.

Thanks for the kind words, interest and attention!

[William Gee]

Up to level3 now. L2 was fantastic, really beautiful I had to check your lore page to know where the yellow key slot was but I should of known anyways. Got to learn all of the real locations you used for inspiration too.
moving onto level3 now.

Level2 took me 90 mins btw.

[ck3D]

William Gee, on 06 March 2023 - 09:56 PM, said:

Up to level3 now. L2 was fantastic, really beautiful I had to check your lore page to know where the yellow key slot was but I should of known anyways. Got to learn all of the real locations you used for inspiration too.
moving onto level3 now.

Level2 took me 90 mins btw.

Thanks a lot I'm very happy you liked it, was hoping you would appreciate the large spaces! And yeah I realized a bit late (but still realized) providing a playthrough might come useful, old-school style since I caught myself thinking about how many Duke players back in 1996 might have never completed the game without them otherwise. We're used to the classic levels now but looking back and thinking about it, they also had a lot of cryptic moments people would now dismiss as bad design. But now I need to do it for every level.

Level 3 is a bit of a different thing compared to 2 (but that style will be back), I'd recommend saving often around the second half of the map, general region up north can have some pretty erratic sector over sector clipping issues depending on player style/speed and EDuke version used (and the included one isn't the best one for preventing them), some players never seem to get them some others do all the time running/jumping around and inadvertently hugging walls which must be super irritating.

[William Gee]

My fave part was the underwater / flooded train, I really loved that.

[NNC]

Yeah, that was amazing. And the green kiosks and toilets in the street, the harbour, etc.

[Ninety-Six]

Level (I've started losing count) Paris down. It's amazing how quickly I went from ending every level looking like I used the DNSTUFF cheat to suddenly running dry over the past two levels (especially explosives). Back in Paris after World Tour, this time we get to blow up an art museum. It's certainly using the theme to better effect than Tour De Nukem did (It really could have been set anywhere given that the main attraction was the underground cavern the alien ship buried itself into). Though it certainly seems to have a similarly cavernous and alien-ified underground as well.

That said, my lack of knowledge of the city really shows here, as I have no idea what the building(?) in the distance being attacked(?) by a reactor spritealien ship(?) is. Or what's really going on with that all.

Found the secret E1L1 easter egg room. I remember you showing off the screenshots of it while it was being built, and I commented how surprised I was at that room's popularity since there have been similar callbacks elsewhere.

Spoiler

I also found the secret level. It was shockingly easy to find. I think I recall you saying it was sort of a remake of your Anarchy City series? Which I've never played (besides the snippet of it in Yelldown Hellride, and X, which I've yet to beat actually), so this is gonna be interesting. Also I like the song for it already, and I am so glad the manual credits the music).

I found a bug, though I know I'm running a version that's a bit outdated by now, but just in case it hasn't been reported yet, one of the cameras seems to be pivoting along the wrong direction.

It was kind of hard to pin the location but I think it's the building near where the roadway tunnel is:

[ck3D]

Ah good catch about that camera, had noticed it before but I guess I forgot to fix it, I'll be looking into correcting that, thanks!

The underground section in Paris is the catacombs: https://en.wikipedia...acombs_of_Paris which are now a renowned touristic attraction (death sells!) but what is less renowned is how only about 1% is officially visitable, as otherwise they are condemned spaces that run underneath the whole of the city and so there basically is a Paris worth of caves current Paris is built atop of. There is a near infinite number of forbidden ways in (that get created just as quickly as they get shut down again), a police department solely devoted to patrolling down there looking for people breaking in, and a huge (literally) underground community of people who do indeed break in (but enforce very strict ethos regarding respect for the place, that they usually clean up, consolidate, renovate, rework), usually artists, social hermits who go down for weeks at a time or even people who straight up live there. It is mandatory to go with someone who already is familiar with the place (the whole of it) since it's essentially a near endless maze that is dozens of feet below ground and in pitch darkness, with flooded areas, the occasional rickety ladders to navigate floors and sections that would be a claustrophobic's worst nightmare including sketchy man-made rock tunnels that can go on for minutes a human body can barely fit in, let alone through. The catacombs in the map are a direct recreation of how going down there actually feels (not just cosmetics or layout style), and so there are narrow holes, sections where Duke is waist deep in mud and that segment where you go down several floors through holes is basically the real thing I had to do myself to get in when I went. The tomb you run into also is the real-life tomb of the first officially recorded dude to ever get lost and die down there, he was only found months later (but thankfully Duke only gets shrunk, right?). It also comprises historical hideouts such as secret hospitals from the second world war as the resistance knew and used the network, also for communication. There are plenty of videos you might be able to easily find on YouTube if interested in the topic, that community seems passionate as heck with the same few channels hosting dozens of documentaries from throughout the decades, it's a pretty cool rabbit hole. In comparison the areas in Tour De Nukem do not feel like the real deal at all. I'm guessing if the World Tour team visited then they probably only checked out the safe, pristine public zone/museum (which isn't to say I didn't appreciate their take on the theme). I was with two Floridians (out of a few other friends) when I went, and they both came prepared not in boots and throwaway clothing like we had recommended but in shorts and sunglasses and carrying six packs like we were about to go to the beach. They saw our guide pop the first manhole up with a crowbar in the middle of a busy street and dip down six floors down a rusty, wet ladder; then never went in and we had to close the manhole behind them leaving in shame, I'll never forget. For a tourist to go down there would be hardcore and unaccompanied a possible death sentence as soon as five minutes in.

Building getting it is a crude recreation of the Eiffel Tower although I can't fault you for not getting that one, it's pretty bad, could have been a lot nicer with more Build resources. It's mostly in there as a joke for when the player finds the secret place you're talking about where they're watching Independence Day (Duke Burger edition) on TV when the same deal is happening right out of their very window, if one catches that one angle then it may be pretty funny. Also it's cool to ask if you're unsure what something is, I also made this so others could learn stuff. Maybe even feel like traveling more.

I'm not surprised you easily found the secret level and probably thought it was weird the button was just there seemingly in plain sight, but that only rewards your curiosity in its purest form (well hopefully one more level is a reward) and maybe you'd be surprised by how many players do miss it, for instance I'm not sure but I highly suspect Mikko did (which seems tied to a linear approach to map reading; during his playthrough Mikko was also regularly insisting on 'corners' he was scared to cut through and it was funny basically having to tell him he was imagining all of them). One of those cases where simple is best, at least interestingly enough just as efficient all the while maybe speaking all the more volume. Another spot that could have been fitting for the hidden exit would have been the last jetpack secret, or somewhere in the catacombs (my original plan actually; ideally you would have accessed a subway system then train station there, from around that room with the two pillars in the back, except I ended up shit out of resources to add that once the main map in place). But clearly I'm more satisfied with that final choice anyway.

And yeah the secret level basically is Anarchy City 1/2/3 all remade in just one map. Really old levels, probably not worth your time but as a curiosity, Anarchy City X is a lot better (also pretty interesting to imagine as a proto-Blast Radius map because of the settings) and at the same time a sort of late spin off, mostly named that because equally inspired by my hometown (but so were Happy Hangover and Anorak City). And even the original Anarchy City maps were based on several even older levels, probably some of my first maps. I'll need to be digging through the history for the corresponding lore post thing, so that people can nerd out.

Hope you don't get (too many) crashes both in the secret level and then the next regular one, those are the two that strangely seem to be stable for some people (in classic) but generate tons of weird rendering issues and crashes in some others.

[Ninety-Six]

ck3D, on 07 March 2023 - 09:19 AM, said:

Hope you don't get (too many) crashes both in the secret level and then the next regular one, those are the two that strangely seem to be stable for some people (in classic) but generate tons of weird rendering issues and crashes in some others.

Well, I'm stuck in classic whether I want to be or not, so hopefully that should indicate a smoother time...?

I suppose I'm not too surprised to learn the caves were the catacombs, I kind of suspected it but wasn't entirely sure due to the lack of human remains, the presence of the very "alien" lighting, which was further backed by the very level previous also having an underground alien hive, and also the fact that I entered via the manhole.

Basically I did everything in the exact way to be confused about where I was, though it's a testament to the level that I still had the catacombs in mind at all.

[stillTodd]

Gotta love the Toilet Simulator in Nakano Nightmare!

As I progressed, I found absolutely no need or desire for tougher enemies a la DukePlus, haha! I did miss the better medkit handling (auto-refill), and the Battlelord cannon & dual wield pistols would have been nice, but not worth messing with overall.

One advantage of DP is more alien friendly fire, one disadvantage is less alien self-damage, so IMHO it all evens out & no need to risk messing up gameplay.

Finally, I had no crashes with the more recent version of eduke32, and I ignored any visual artifacts. Thanks again @ck3D, it was a Blast.

[ck3D]

Ninety-Six, on 07 March 2023 - 10:10 AM, said:

Well, I'm stuck in classic whether I want to be or not, so hopefully that should indicate a smoother time...?

I suppose I'm not too surprised to learn the caves were the catacombs, I kind of suspected it but wasn't entirely sure due to the lack of human remains, the presence of the very "alien" lighting, which was further backed by the very level previous also having an underground alien hive, and also the fact that I entered via the manhole.

Basically I did everything in the exact way to be confused about where I was, though it's a testament to the level that I still had the catacombs in mind at all.

Another element from the level that might elude you a little less now is the place where you get the red key which is the morgue underneath the pharmacy where that machine is feeding bones into that pit (it's not human-looking corpses per se but the former room with the door puzzle and Cycloid also uses that texture all over, I was hoping that would sell it). One question I kept being asked during testing was 'why is that one elevator back up from the red key so low?' and I kept having to specify why it was never supposed to be ridden by someone standing up.

[Ninety-Six]

ck3D, on 07 March 2023 - 10:56 AM, said:

Another element from the level that might elude you a little less now is the place where you get the red key which is the morgue underneath the pharmacy where that machine is feeding bones into that pit (it's not human-looking corpses per se but the former room with the door puzzle and Cycloid also uses that texture all over, I was hoping that would sell it). One question I kept being asked during testing was 'why is that one elevator back up from the red key so low?' and I kept having to specify why it was never supposed to be ridden by someone standing up.

Somehow I never mentally linked that room to the pharmacy, despite the elevator going from one to the other. I saw the body machine but assumed it was something the aliens were doing. As for the elevator, I didn't question it whatsoever. I guess after crawling around in really cramped caves I didn't bother to question why the elevator was tiny either. Even though I was hyper-fixated on that hatchway when I first started the level, thinking it might have been a secret. I was even primed into thinking the pharmacy was already evil, because I didn't need to know French to understand the Big Pharma poster.


This brings back memories of Poison Heart and all the environmental storytelling that was present in that one. Now I'm starting to feel like there were other bits of that across BR that I just completely passed over without thinking about it deep enough.

I gotta remember to really get into that mindset and pay attention when I play one of your maps. It's really easy to miss the finer details like that once you've seen every texture a zillion times and it all mentally starts to turn into white noise.

[ck3D]

That is cool and in part intended (especially in that specific level which is one of the ones with the most Easter eggs), it's called replay value and maybe you should enjoy while it lasts, as your opposition becomes more and more hardcore in the next levels it might not! Well at least you should be a little familiar with the new projectiles already by now.

I was hoping the player wouldn't necessarily catch the catacombs/morgue/pharmacy transition as early as their first time around, it's deliberately smooth, the player rises from the dead and just because of their movement and the suggested thematics I'm sure can feel it but doesn't particularly have to consciously realize it, so long as they understand they've beaten that section and can go back to running around in the open.

[Šneček]

Awesome episode with awesome music. Anyway, i have problem with Duke Du Quatrain level- at the beginning the level goes well, but in certain parts of the map the game suddenly gets freeze for some reason and I have to turn it off (application not responding) Anyone else notice that? I will probably skip that level. (-fortunately I have one more save from lights, camera, revolution level)

[Dr.Panico]

Šneček, on 08 March 2023 - 08:12 AM, said:

Awesome episode with awesome music. Anyway, i have problem with Duke Du Quatrain level- at the beginning the level goes well, but in certain parts of the map the game suddenly gets freeze for some reason and I have to turn it off (application not responding) Anyone else notice that? I will probably skip that level. (-fortunately I have one more save from lights, camera, revolution level)

Are you playing on Classic or in some other mode? I've had a similar problem in another level and, in my case, it was because of Polymost.

[ck3D]

Šneček, on 08 March 2023 - 08:12 AM, said:

Awesome episode with awesome music. Anyway, i have problem with Duke Du Quatrain level- at the beginning the level goes well, but in certain parts of the map the game suddenly gets freeze for some reason and I have to turn it off (application not responding) Anyone else notice that? I will probably skip that level. (-fortunately I have one more save from lights, camera, revolution level)

Thank you, glad you like it and yes, that issue is known in that level as well as in level 8 (so that means on a full playthrough, coincidentally they're back to back), like Dr. Panico said (as well as the documentation) I'm pretty certain it's Polymost only though. Something with the (currently) included build of EDuke32 is misleading (I only realized that recently): to properly switch to classic/software (which isn't the default option) one needs to actively go into Display Setup then Video Mode and select the option there, otherwise (say by using the launcher) it won't work and remain stuck on Polymost (took Mikko four levels to notice that had been happening to him and I don't blame him, that's just confusing). Some people have reported crashes in classic but that's never happened to any of the testers, neither does it ever to me even when trying to reproduce the reports unless I DNCLIP out of bounds and reach all the normally unreachable corners I'm aware still are problematic, so my theory is those players were in a similar case of inadvertently being under Polymost. I have alternative options of different a build with uncapped MAXSPRITESONSCREEN to include instead which shouldn't be as misleading and am working on deciding which one is best.

I'm still not too sure what causes that singular problem at the source (it's rather original and very much looks like is the same thing happening in both maps). I suspect a bad combo of wall lengths and number of walls or sectors all visible at the same time, since in those two maps almost all allowed walls can be seen at once with very little blocking, over a large area and the crashes usually happen when looking from distance towards the center of the map(s). I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually but that doesn't mean those levels will ever be completely salvageable for Polymost due to how they're wired, if anything they were a lesson learned in how much one can push open views in Build before the engine starts choking. So far every time I've been trying my usual surgeries for rendering bugs there, I could only ever manage to make matters worse in classic and I'm drawing the line there since classic always was the prioritized focus. Polymost otherwise does all kinds of weird stuff from offsetting wall sprites and textures in random ways to drawing skies where there shouldn't be, thus making some enemies invisible, no one should want that.

[Šneček]

Dr.Panico, on 08 March 2023 - 09:41 AM, said:

Are you playing on Classic or in some other mode? I've had a similar problem in another level and, in my case, it was because of Polymost.

I had polymost renderer in video mode settings.

[Šneček]

ck3D, on 08 March 2023 - 10:53 AM, said:

Thank you, glad you like it and yes, that issue is known in that level as well as in level 8 (so that means on a full playthrough, coincidentally they're back to back), like Dr. Panico said (as well as the documentation) I'm pretty certain it's Polymost only though. Something with the (currently) included build of EDuke32 is misleading (I only realized that recently): to properly switch to classic/software (which isn't the default option) one needs to actively go into Display Setup then Video Mode and select the option there, otherwise (say by using the launcher) it won't work and remain stuck on Polymost (took Mikko four levels to notice that had been happening to him and I don't blame him, that's just confusing). Some people have reported crashes in classic but that's never happened to any of the testers, neither does it ever to me even when trying to reproduce the reports unless I DNCLIP out of bounds and reach all the normally unreachable corners I'm aware still are problematic, so my theory is those players were in a similar case of inadvertently being under Polymost. I have alternative options of different a build with uncapped MAXSPRITESONSCREEN to include instead which shouldn't be as misleading and am working on deciding which one is best.

I'm still not too sure what causes that singular problem at the source (it's rather original and very much looks like is the same thing happening in both maps). I suspect a bad combo of wall lengths and number of walls or sectors all visible at the same time, since in those two maps almost all allowed walls can be seen at once with very little blocking, over a large area and the crashes usually happen when looking from distance towards the center of the map(s). I'm sure I'll figure it out eventually but that doesn't mean those levels will ever be completely salvageable for Polymost due to how they're wired, if anything they were a lesson learned in how much one can push open views in Build before the engine starts choking. So far every time I've been trying my usual surgeries for rendering bugs there, I could only ever manage to make matters worse in classic and I'm drawing the line there since classic always was the prioritized focus. Polymost otherwise does all kinds of weird stuff from offsetting wall sprites and textures in random ways to drawing skies where there shouldn't be, thus making some enemies invisible, no one should want that.

Thanks, I switched to classic and now it hasn't frozen once! Until it finally crashed completely.

[ck3D]

^ Please feel free to help by sharing info about, or screenshots of where those crashes happen to you in classic and in those levels (so 8 and 14/secret). They do not happen to me, nor did they to the testers but it sounds like some players have a different experience and I'm trying to pinpoint the causes. Some fixes I can directly attempt in map but it greatly helps to have a reference point re: the corresponding conditions, placement and angle (I know by nature it's hard to take a screenshot right before predicting a crash though). What gets me is I've been sent a few I legitimately could never reproduce myself and so try and work out (but again that might have been on some of those players at least possibly unknowingly running Polymost).

Here's a list of the few spots I'm aware of can trigger those issues, or have triggered them before, in both those maps and in classic:

Level 8:

- looking across the map and through its center from all the way across (corner to corner), but that would mean going out-of-bounds with DNCLIP so I don't really count that, maybe flying into the south westernmost absolute corner of the level at a specific height and then turning back can trigger it, but that sounds like a very specific and reasonably unlikely thing to try doing at random since there evidently is nothing to do or search there (not that I would rule out the odds to ever happen);

- near that one same corner, one specific sector on top of the blue building (corner of one rooftop) might crash the game if the player tries looking back and across the map from there at a certain angle, now that one is annoying (since the action is doable) and I'm working on solving it since I can kind of preview it;

- map is otherwise stable to me everywhere else including in various other spots I know will conflict with Polymost, couldn't reproduce other reports.

Level 14/secret also is stable here but:

- looking across the map from a particular rooftop sector in the mall area (third island) used to crash the game for me and then without meaning to touch anything there that stopped happening overnight and I could no longer reproduce it, so I suspect I might have inadvertently either fixed or strongly alleviated it;

- looking across the map from the complete opposite corner also used to be problematic, but I'm pretty sure I've completely fixed that too (consciously this time) a long time ago.

[Šneček]

ck3D, on 09 March 2023 - 08:40 AM, said:

^ Please feel free to help by sharing info about, or screenshots of where those crashes happen to you in classic and in those levels (so 8 and 14/secret). They do not happen to me, nor did they to the testers but it sounds like some players have a different experience and I'm trying to pinpoint the causes. Some fixes I can directly attempt in map but it greatly helps to have a reference point re: the corresponding conditions, placement and angle (I know by nature it's hard to take a screenshot right before predicting a crash though). What gets me is I've been sent a few I legitimately could never reproduce myself and so try and work out (but again that might have been on some of those players at least possibly unknowingly running Polymost).

Here's a list of the few spots I'm aware of can trigger those issues, or have triggered them before, in both those maps and in classic:

Level 8:

- looking across the map and through its center from all the way across (corner to corner), but that would mean going out-of-bounds with DNCLIP so I don't really count that, maybe flying into the south westernmost absolute corner of the level at a specific height and then turning back can trigger it, but that sounds like a very specific and reasonably unlikely thing to try doing at random since there evidently is nothing to do or search there (not that I would rule out the odds to ever happen);

- near that one same corner, one specific sector on top of the blue building (corner of one rooftop) might crash the game if the player tries looking back and across the map from there at a certain angle, now that one is annoying (since the action is doable) and I'm working on solving it since I can kind of preview it;

- map is otherwise stable to me everywhere else including in various other spots I know will conflict with Polymost, couldn't reproduce other reports.

Level 14/secret also is stable here but:

- looking across the map from a particular rooftop sector in the mall area (third island) used to crash the game for me and then without meaning to touch anything there that stopped happening overnight and I could no longer reproduce it, so I suspect I might have inadvertently either fixed or strongly alleviated it;

- looking across the map from the complete opposite corner also used to be problematic, but I'm pretty sure I've completely fixed that too (consciously this time) a long time ago.

I found one of the crashing places- if I decide to continue straight here, it crashes immediately. Renderer: classic

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[ck3D]

Thanks a lot, that helps. Of course this is the very last spot I was talking about and so the only one I was pretty certain I had fixed, except I guess I didn't (or not from all angles). I appreciate the report, I'll be looking into that one when I can!

[Šneček]

you may have described it yourself at the next level, but the problems continue with level 8 Norilsk No Reward. In the frozen lake area behind the blue building, the game freezes. Tested with Classic and Polymost renderer. It's a great pity. Looks like my smooth play ended at the Paris level. But I've still enjoyed it up until now.

[ck3D]

Yeah, that sucks you're running into those issues, I really hope to figure out what causes them soon (and also all the inconsistencies from player to player as far as in the same renderer - that really gets me). Are you using the included EDuke32, or a more recent build/the latest?

Those are the only two maps I know are potentially problematic however and so none of the next levels after Norilsk should break (and it's still a lot of game). If you're still trying to finish Norilsk (I have no idea how frequent your crashes are), all you need to get from the blue building is the blue key, then from the red building is the red key, etc. it's a completely linear map as far as the key progression goes but also one of those where you can fly over the central element (the red lava pit) or even right to the end (your objective should be that lone switch on top of a round tower across the lava, which will reveal the exit). Rest of the levels onwards should flow as normal. Sorry for the trouble, those issues wouldn't be in if I could reproduce them, for now I'm mostly stuck with reports and figuring out the bigger picture piece by piece.