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rlrmbl.rar (65.12K)
Number of downloads: 310
[RELEASE] Red Light Rumble "E1L2 x E3L4 x neo-noir"
#1 Posted 03 July 2022 - 12:17 AM
Hi, here's another new map for Duke 3D Atomic, it's a very loose remake/reimagining of the base game's E1L2 Red Light District by Allen Blum and then also borrows some ingredients from Levelord's E3L4 L.A. Rumble before being deep fried in 'Neo L.A.' aesthetics, baked in four days. All gameplay styles supported (SP, DM, Coop), about a dozen of secret places and maybe quite the challenge towards the end. Watch out for the babes. Hope you enjoy!
This post has been edited by ck3D: 03 July 2022 - 02:45 AM
#2 Posted 03 July 2022 - 04:28 AM
It was quite fortunate I stumbled upon this, because I didn't have much else to do tonight. So, I decided to knock this map out and give my thoughts on it. Here goes:
Red Light Rumble
This is a map that definitely exemplifies your collect-a-thon and secret hunting style, even more so than Turnpike. This map is extremely non-linear, and without the secret RPG I doubt you'd get very far - but thankfully it's not obnoxious at all. One of the things I'm starting to pick up on your mapping style (and subsequently liking) is that if there's a place you can go to, there's an item waiting for you as a reward. There's tons of Steroids everywhere to incentivise you to make huge speed-boosted jumps, including a very easy sequence break that I found which takes you to the exit switch. And I know you accounted for this too, because there's two Atomic Healths on the platform where you break your fall, ensuring that you'll be able to live for long enough to go hit the switch.
I digress. The intended route is much more treacherous - you'll take quite a bit of fall damage if you don't know where to land to minimise it, and if you're not secret hunting you'll be strapped for health. While the threat of constant fall damage in a map that's as big, sandboxy and vertical as this one sounds aggravating, navigation in this map is actually really fun, both because of the creative layout, and also because the security cameras provide helpful hints on where you need to search for critical items. The combat also constantly forces you to stay on your toes, and it's quite fun most of the time, but the ending fight feels like work, as there's so many Pig Cop Tanks and Drones you have to clear out. It's probably my least favourite part of the map. In general, I think a little more monster variety would have been appreciated. Clouds of Octabrains would have been much more fun to blow up as opposed to waves of Pig Cops in open space, and the Pig Cop Jets just aren't worth it to kill. I ended up skipping on them, they were both a waste of my time and ammo.
I think you've hit another slam dunk with this map! The combat can get a little repetitive, but the creative layout, rocking MIDI and great rewards for exploration make it well worth the time.
9/10.
I don't know if you have a bunch of these map remakes stockpiled or not, but if you don't, I'd personally like to see what spin you could put on Dark Side or Lunar Reactor, or perhaps even a gimmick map like Tier Drops or Spin Cycle.
Red Light Rumble
This is a map that definitely exemplifies your collect-a-thon and secret hunting style, even more so than Turnpike. This map is extremely non-linear, and without the secret RPG I doubt you'd get very far - but thankfully it's not obnoxious at all. One of the things I'm starting to pick up on your mapping style (and subsequently liking) is that if there's a place you can go to, there's an item waiting for you as a reward. There's tons of Steroids everywhere to incentivise you to make huge speed-boosted jumps, including a very easy sequence break that I found which takes you to the exit switch. And I know you accounted for this too, because there's two Atomic Healths on the platform where you break your fall, ensuring that you'll be able to live for long enough to go hit the switch.
I digress. The intended route is much more treacherous - you'll take quite a bit of fall damage if you don't know where to land to minimise it, and if you're not secret hunting you'll be strapped for health. While the threat of constant fall damage in a map that's as big, sandboxy and vertical as this one sounds aggravating, navigation in this map is actually really fun, both because of the creative layout, and also because the security cameras provide helpful hints on where you need to search for critical items. The combat also constantly forces you to stay on your toes, and it's quite fun most of the time, but the ending fight feels like work, as there's so many Pig Cop Tanks and Drones you have to clear out. It's probably my least favourite part of the map. In general, I think a little more monster variety would have been appreciated. Clouds of Octabrains would have been much more fun to blow up as opposed to waves of Pig Cops in open space, and the Pig Cop Jets just aren't worth it to kill. I ended up skipping on them, they were both a waste of my time and ammo.
I think you've hit another slam dunk with this map! The combat can get a little repetitive, but the creative layout, rocking MIDI and great rewards for exploration make it well worth the time.
9/10.
I don't know if you have a bunch of these map remakes stockpiled or not, but if you don't, I'd personally like to see what spin you could put on Dark Side or Lunar Reactor, or perhaps even a gimmick map like Tier Drops or Spin Cycle.
This post has been edited by Quacken: 03 July 2022 - 04:29 AM
#3 Posted 03 July 2022 - 07:43 AM
Thank you for your review, Quacken! Two maps in a week and you've been first on feedback every time, I appreciate the enthusiasm.
There's the secret RPG that you found (but really the level sort of takes you there, I always like introducing RPG secrets that aren't any more out of sight and line than the RPG secret in E1L1, I think that's a good standard) but there's also one in the dark parking garage thing that's basically automatically awarded to the player once they make it there, you probably grabbed it without seeing it because the area is very dark (or somehow managed to walk past it, but it's literally in the middle of a narrow hallway that's your only path so that actually would be skills - or you were stocked up on rockets). I like the idea of secrets allowing the player early access to items they would find later in the map anyway just to change things up with every playthrough, also it sounds like you picked up on that but the fall damage when on that first secret hunt (in particular) is also to compensate in part for giving the player so much advantage, one good example is that green platform with tempting pipebombs and rockets near the start from which you can't climb back up without the jetpack and so have to spot the right ledges on your way down (honestly picturing Duke Nukem safely jumping down a skyscraper in just three steps for some reason I think is pretty on point); there's also how you can literally skip the first street and directly jump into the blue key room if you ever fancy the challenge of fighting unprepared, or all the way down to the sewer manhole which allows you to enter the Forbidden Videos and Books store first thing into the map and later approach the streets from the other way.
I'm curious as to how you made that skip work (I think I know the one), there's a funny story about that part, only halfway through my last day working on the map and refining little detail here and there I realized the way it was built at the time (no sky-high fence around the exit), the player could literally jump down from the start, hit the right ledges to break their deadly fall and then rush to the Nukebutton all the while praying that the enemy forces miss hitscanning them in the back. That one last big gate you lower as your last trigger in the level also used to start out a little lower than it does now, making the skip even more blatant. I felt stupid for a second but then started toying around with that fence in part as a joke and to my surprise realized it actually really boosted the aesthetics of that map corner (in my opinion) so I just kept it in as is. I deliberately kept a tiny gap between the fence and the edge of the platform so that a player with advanced knowledge of the mechanics of the game could try making it work still and feel good about themselves if they pulled it off. But I still thought I had made it a bit harder than that! My favorite steroids jump in this map is out of the window of the apartment with the blue key, to land back on the opposite starting rooftop, the trashcans in that very room give you steroids as an incentive too, I don't know if you found and/or used those to get out.
Ending definitely is some heavy pasta, in a way those 'remake' speed maps are pretty niche and experimental projects where respecting (to an extent) the enemy choice and logic of the originals is part of the gimmick, for instance Turnpike didn't have one assault trooper just like Freeway also missed them (only level in the game without them) and as a result the tone felt pretty hardcore and chaotic, here I basically wanted to make this map as 'pig heavy' as the original E1L2 would feel to a first time player right after they've been introduced to their first Pig Cops ever at the end of E1L1. E1L2 had this 'pigs rule the block' type of underlying tone to it I always thought, here I tried to homage this vibe just times five since the scope of the level also sort of is times five. I did consider Octabrains but thought this map had no real sewers to really justify their use without breaking theme and so to compensate I used Commanders and a few mini Battlelords (way more suited to the scale of the level since their projectiles do not vanish). Overwhelming aspect is real but deliberate, also not sure of how much that conveyed to you but something else I wanted to capture from the original E1L2 mood was the ending where the Pigs really are organized and out to get Duke with more or less sophisticated infiltration and booby-trapping of the block, except here they're onto a full-scale assault you can actually tame if you can earn it - thought this would feel a bit more immersive, interactive and rewarding than the original's scripted random monster closet sequence showing Duke getting absolutely fucked by four of the same pigs he just slaughtered en masse throughout the whole map.
I'm also curious if the babes ever were problematic? I'm kinda stoked on how that gimmick ended up playing out. I'm constantly finding myself needing to show (some) restraint during the big explosive fights as if they really were 'hot spots', danger zones to keep on the look out for in the midst of all the fast action and open terrain since every single one dying is so punitive. I've completed the map both with and without any accidental babe death before and from my experience 'saving' them can really alleviate one's progression and, to the contrary, not caring about them basically equates to suicide jumping into an ocean of shit.
edit - forgot to address this, I may keep going with the speed remakes although right now I really want to chill for a bit and devote my mapping time to the last stretch of gameplay progress on Blast Radius. I'm definitely more drawn to the gimmicky maps when that's the case, I've actually considered alternate takes on Tier Drops/Spin Cycle, I like playing with some of the most simple Build possibilities such as ROR a lot so that's actually not out of question.... Sometime.
There's the secret RPG that you found (but really the level sort of takes you there, I always like introducing RPG secrets that aren't any more out of sight and line than the RPG secret in E1L1, I think that's a good standard) but there's also one in the dark parking garage thing that's basically automatically awarded to the player once they make it there, you probably grabbed it without seeing it because the area is very dark (or somehow managed to walk past it, but it's literally in the middle of a narrow hallway that's your only path so that actually would be skills - or you were stocked up on rockets). I like the idea of secrets allowing the player early access to items they would find later in the map anyway just to change things up with every playthrough, also it sounds like you picked up on that but the fall damage when on that first secret hunt (in particular) is also to compensate in part for giving the player so much advantage, one good example is that green platform with tempting pipebombs and rockets near the start from which you can't climb back up without the jetpack and so have to spot the right ledges on your way down (honestly picturing Duke Nukem safely jumping down a skyscraper in just three steps for some reason I think is pretty on point); there's also how you can literally skip the first street and directly jump into the blue key room if you ever fancy the challenge of fighting unprepared, or all the way down to the sewer manhole which allows you to enter the Forbidden Videos and Books store first thing into the map and later approach the streets from the other way.
I'm curious as to how you made that skip work (I think I know the one), there's a funny story about that part, only halfway through my last day working on the map and refining little detail here and there I realized the way it was built at the time (no sky-high fence around the exit), the player could literally jump down from the start, hit the right ledges to break their deadly fall and then rush to the Nukebutton all the while praying that the enemy forces miss hitscanning them in the back. That one last big gate you lower as your last trigger in the level also used to start out a little lower than it does now, making the skip even more blatant. I felt stupid for a second but then started toying around with that fence in part as a joke and to my surprise realized it actually really boosted the aesthetics of that map corner (in my opinion) so I just kept it in as is. I deliberately kept a tiny gap between the fence and the edge of the platform so that a player with advanced knowledge of the mechanics of the game could try making it work still and feel good about themselves if they pulled it off. But I still thought I had made it a bit harder than that! My favorite steroids jump in this map is out of the window of the apartment with the blue key, to land back on the opposite starting rooftop, the trashcans in that very room give you steroids as an incentive too, I don't know if you found and/or used those to get out.
Ending definitely is some heavy pasta, in a way those 'remake' speed maps are pretty niche and experimental projects where respecting (to an extent) the enemy choice and logic of the originals is part of the gimmick, for instance Turnpike didn't have one assault trooper just like Freeway also missed them (only level in the game without them) and as a result the tone felt pretty hardcore and chaotic, here I basically wanted to make this map as 'pig heavy' as the original E1L2 would feel to a first time player right after they've been introduced to their first Pig Cops ever at the end of E1L1. E1L2 had this 'pigs rule the block' type of underlying tone to it I always thought, here I tried to homage this vibe just times five since the scope of the level also sort of is times five. I did consider Octabrains but thought this map had no real sewers to really justify their use without breaking theme and so to compensate I used Commanders and a few mini Battlelords (way more suited to the scale of the level since their projectiles do not vanish). Overwhelming aspect is real but deliberate, also not sure of how much that conveyed to you but something else I wanted to capture from the original E1L2 mood was the ending where the Pigs really are organized and out to get Duke with more or less sophisticated infiltration and booby-trapping of the block, except here they're onto a full-scale assault you can actually tame if you can earn it - thought this would feel a bit more immersive, interactive and rewarding than the original's scripted random monster closet sequence showing Duke getting absolutely fucked by four of the same pigs he just slaughtered en masse throughout the whole map.
I'm also curious if the babes ever were problematic? I'm kinda stoked on how that gimmick ended up playing out. I'm constantly finding myself needing to show (some) restraint during the big explosive fights as if they really were 'hot spots', danger zones to keep on the look out for in the midst of all the fast action and open terrain since every single one dying is so punitive. I've completed the map both with and without any accidental babe death before and from my experience 'saving' them can really alleviate one's progression and, to the contrary, not caring about them basically equates to suicide jumping into an ocean of shit.
edit - forgot to address this, I may keep going with the speed remakes although right now I really want to chill for a bit and devote my mapping time to the last stretch of gameplay progress on Blast Radius. I'm definitely more drawn to the gimmicky maps when that's the case, I've actually considered alternate takes on Tier Drops/Spin Cycle, I like playing with some of the most simple Build possibilities such as ROR a lot so that's actually not out of question.... Sometime.
This post has been edited by ck3D: 03 July 2022 - 09:28 AM
#4 Posted 03 July 2022 - 09:40 AM
Hey, here's version 1.01 of the map. Barely any changes:
- fixed sky glitch in one corner of the map where the sky would insist to render in-game as darker than it always was set up to (honestly makes no sense to me since the problematic sector never used light effects, but I still found a workaround);
- last secret of the map is so secret even I had forgotten about it, leaving it empty in the first version, now it's holding a few goodies including an extra pair of NVG's (not to be slept on in this map by the way, super useful to scan the environment and spot where you're being shot from);
- couple of very minor cosmetic changes.
Thanks for your patience and apologies for the double post.
- fixed sky glitch in one corner of the map where the sky would insist to render in-game as darker than it always was set up to (honestly makes no sense to me since the problematic sector never used light effects, but I still found a workaround);
- last secret of the map is so secret even I had forgotten about it, leaving it empty in the first version, now it's holding a few goodies including an extra pair of NVG's (not to be slept on in this map by the way, super useful to scan the environment and spot where you're being shot from);
- couple of very minor cosmetic changes.
Thanks for your patience and apologies for the double post.
Attached File(s)
-
RLRMBLv101.rar (65.86K)
Number of downloads: 180
#5 Posted 03 July 2022 - 01:30 PM
Whey! Played this map today, took me 30 mins to beat, 9 secrets found, 3 missed.
First off, I enjoyed the non-stop creativy when it comes to texture choises; after years of playing ck3d's maps i thought I knew his style, but he actually managed to make something that looks really fresh and unique.
One thing that I noticed right off the bat - dunno if it's intentional or not - is that this map looks more like something out of Doom rather Duke. The music choise only enhanced this feeling.
I enjoyed the action enough, but the begining of the map is very rough, with barely any health to pick up, It did it again by the end of the map, when I started to run out of ammo and health alike, basically searching all around the map looking for more. It feels like the map is slightly unblanaced when it comes to ammo and health ratio.
Another thing I don't really like is mirror, which is a bit overused imo, but otherwise this map is a thrilling half-hour ride that don't disappoint!
Oh, and it's really strange to kill the battlelords so easily, lol.
First off, I enjoyed the non-stop creativy when it comes to texture choises; after years of playing ck3d's maps i thought I knew his style, but he actually managed to make something that looks really fresh and unique.
One thing that I noticed right off the bat - dunno if it's intentional or not - is that this map looks more like something out of Doom rather Duke. The music choise only enhanced this feeling.
I enjoyed the action enough, but the begining of the map is very rough, with barely any health to pick up, It did it again by the end of the map, when I started to run out of ammo and health alike, basically searching all around the map looking for more. It feels like the map is slightly unblanaced when it comes to ammo and health ratio.
Another thing I don't really like is mirror, which is a bit overused imo, but otherwise this map is a thrilling half-hour ride that don't disappoint!
Oh, and it's really strange to kill the battlelords so easily, lol.
- Honored Donor
-
#6 Posted 03 July 2022 - 02:49 PM
Really enjoyed this one! It feels almost like a prototype-style DN3D map in the sense that it looks sort of like a city map you'd see in the prototype screenshots, and the music reminded me of Duke Nukem II. The use of color also makes me think of some of the early design concepts when the game was still in alpha-stages of development.
I really enjoyed the navigation and the use of the pig cops here. It really felt like they were ready to take Duke out, like a SWAT team. The RPVs were not much of a threat, but great visual effect as they patrolled the skies of the city. I really liked the futuristic cars (another call-back to old screenshots).
I personally adored the use of mirrors, as it gave the map more of a futuristic tech-noir style to the clubs and other areas in the level that had them. It was also cool to see the third person view of me blowing a pig cop into pork rinds with a pipebomb near the peep-shows.
I'm also quite thankful for all the fire hydrants in the main street with all the police cars, I really needed to use them a few times so I could survive, and it made the level far more tense for it because you had to be on the lookout for surprise enemies as you try to gain more health.
Overall, this is a great map that has a really great setup, good use of scenery and enemy placements, as well as item placement. I felt bad for all the babes that died during my playthrough, but it is their fault for standing so close to all these cops and all the exploding barrels.
Great work yet again, ck3d!
I really enjoyed the navigation and the use of the pig cops here. It really felt like they were ready to take Duke out, like a SWAT team. The RPVs were not much of a threat, but great visual effect as they patrolled the skies of the city. I really liked the futuristic cars (another call-back to old screenshots).
I personally adored the use of mirrors, as it gave the map more of a futuristic tech-noir style to the clubs and other areas in the level that had them. It was also cool to see the third person view of me blowing a pig cop into pork rinds with a pipebomb near the peep-shows.
I'm also quite thankful for all the fire hydrants in the main street with all the police cars, I really needed to use them a few times so I could survive, and it made the level far more tense for it because you had to be on the lookout for surprise enemies as you try to gain more health.
Overall, this is a great map that has a really great setup, good use of scenery and enemy placements, as well as item placement. I felt bad for all the babes that died during my playthrough, but it is their fault for standing so close to all these cops and all the exploding barrels.
Great work yet again, ck3d!
#7 Posted 03 July 2022 - 03:54 PM
ck3D, on 03 July 2022 - 07:43 AM, said:
I'm curious as to how you made that skip work (I think I know the one), there's a funny story about that part, only halfway through my last day working on the map and refining little detail here and there I realized the way it was built at the time (no sky-high fence around the exit), the player could literally jump down from the start, hit the right ledges to break their deadly fall and then rush to the Nukebutton all the while praying that the enemy forces miss hitscanning them in the back. That one last big gate you lower as your last trigger in the level also used to start out a little lower than it does now, making the skip even more blatant. I felt stupid for a second but then started toying around with that fence in part as a joke and to my surprise realized it actually really boosted the aesthetics of that map corner (in my opinion) so I just kept it in as is. I deliberately kept a tiny gap between the fence and the edge of the platform so that a player with advanced knowledge of the mechanics of the game could try making it work still and feel good about themselves if they pulled it off. But I still thought I had made it a bit harder than that! My favorite steroids jump in this map is out of the window of the apartment with the blue key, to land back on the opposite starting rooftop, the trashcans in that very room give you steroids as an incentive too, I don't know if you found and/or used those to get out.
I'm also curious if the babes ever were problematic? I'm kinda stoked on how that gimmick ended up playing out. I'm constantly finding myself needing to show (some) restraint during the big explosive fights as if they really were 'hot spots', danger zones to keep on the look out for in the midst of all the fast action and open terrain since every single one dying is so punitive. I've completed the map both with and without any accidental babe death before and from my experience 'saving' them can really alleviate one's progression and, to the contrary, not caring about them basically equates to suicide jumping into an ocean of shit.
I'm also curious if the babes ever were problematic? I'm kinda stoked on how that gimmick ended up playing out. I'm constantly finding myself needing to show (some) restraint during the big explosive fights as if they really were 'hot spots', danger zones to keep on the look out for in the midst of all the fast action and open terrain since every single one dying is so punitive. I've completed the map both with and without any accidental babe death before and from my experience 'saving' them can really alleviate one's progression and, to the contrary, not caring about them basically equates to suicide jumping into an ocean of shit.
At the start of the map, jump down to the lower level and break the vents to get to the Steroids. Then jump over a big grey wall to get to the secret with the Medkit and rockets. Pop the Steroids and make a jump towards the platform with the hazard strip and two Atomic Healths (the one that eventually lowers to reveal the exit switch if you were playing the map normally). Grab the Atomic Healths quickly, and with time remaining on the Steroids book it for the exit. I think that's approximately about what you found out yourself. Personally I think it's pretty in-character for your maps to be really long but have skips to finish them in mere minutes, I think I recall from your Blast Radius thread that some of those maps can take hours to do everything in but can be speedran in about 5 to 10 minutes.
As for the babes, I only really accidentally killed a few of them. Most things that would kill them quickly like Assault Commanders or Battlelords I killed quickly with the Rocket Launcher or Shrinker, so a handful of them only died by my own hand, whenever I was using Pipe Bombs on the Pig Cops.
This post has been edited by Quacken: 03 July 2022 - 03:55 PM
#8 Posted 03 July 2022 - 08:08 PM
Thanks for this and it was a lot of fun. Used the latest version of Dukeplus (for the enhanced enemy AI) and it was really great.
I found that saving the babes ended up making for more of a challenge at the end, haha!
I found that saving the babes ended up making for more of a challenge at the end, haha!
#9 Posted 03 July 2022 - 10:00 PM
Quacken, on 03 July 2022 - 03:54 PM, said:
At the start of the map, jump down to the lower level and break the vents to get to the Steroids. Then jump over a big grey wall to get to the secret with the Medkit and rockets. Pop the Steroids and make a jump towards the platform with the hazard strip and two Atomic Healths (the one that eventually lowers to reveal the exit switch if you were playing the map normally). Grab the Atomic Healths quickly, and with time remaining on the Steroids book it for the exit. I think that's approximately about what you found out yourself. Personally I think it's pretty in-character for your maps to be really long but have skips to finish them in mere minutes, I think I recall from your Blast Radius thread that some of those maps can take hours to do everything in but can be speedran in about 5 to 10 minutes.
As for the babes, I only really accidentally killed a few of them. Most things that would kill them quickly like Assault Commanders or Battlelords I killed quickly with the Rocket Launcher or Shrinker, so a handful of them only died by my own hand, whenever I was using Pipe Bombs on the Pig Cops.
As for the babes, I only really accidentally killed a few of them. Most things that would kill them quickly like Assault Commanders or Battlelords I killed quickly with the Rocket Launcher or Shrinker, so a handful of them only died by my own hand, whenever I was using Pipe Bombs on the Pig Cops.
Wow - good looking out and super creative skip, for some reason I completely overlooked the possibility of a steroids jump from there, but I'm glad it's possible - I just tried and it's easy to pull off once you've noticed the possibility, but not necessarily evident to even spot in all the scenery (proof is I never did until you pointed it out, but probably would have had this not been a speed map) and I'm glad it's there because it's rather rewarding and also pretty cinematic jumping across the entire block just like that! And yes indeed, I try to consciously incorporate the logic you describe in my design these days and so it's really cool to see or hear about players actually exploiting the possibilities and embracing the intent, the response makes those ideas feel a bit less like I'm just shouting abstractions into the void.
@Sanek I never mapped for Doom since I haven't even had the game in over a decade and am attached to the particular quirks of the Build engine too much but I used to play Doom on a comparable level to Duke as a kid and always appreciated the design philosophy there, always marked me big time. For the past years or so I'm just letting that show through in my Duke designs a little more. I used to aim for photorealism a bit more as a fun exercise but these days I'm mostly focused on levels that also actually function as video game levels first and foremost and only then comes the make up (or lack thereof).
Thank you for all the comments, stoked to see appreciation for stuff like the mirrors or even the hydrants (but I knew someone would appreciate those, always do whenever I'm throwing one in). I wonder if anyone will spontaneously find the Beavis & Butthead reference and get why that one bathroom is on fire.
I'm posting DNSKILL's video because it's a great preview of the map, Damn I'm Good calls for some unique strats and combat-wise there are some epic moments, thank you for making this:
This post has been edited by ck3D: 03 July 2022 - 11:33 PM
#10 Posted 04 July 2022 - 01:09 AM
If it's of any interest, I just quickly speedran through the map using the above skip I described, and I exited in 21 seconds. The time it took for me to finish the map intentionally was 35 minutes.
EDIT: With some better movement and strategies I managed to shave my PB down to 14.49 seconds. I'll keep doing attempts to see how low I can go.
EDIT 2: 12.75 is probably the best I'm going to do. I don't have video proof or anything, but I've got a screenshot, and I'm happy to explain the route I took as well.
EDIT: With some better movement and strategies I managed to shave my PB down to 14.49 seconds. I'll keep doing attempts to see how low I can go.
EDIT 2: 12.75 is probably the best I'm going to do. I don't have video proof or anything, but I've got a screenshot, and I'm happy to explain the route I took as well.
This post has been edited by Quacken: 04 July 2022 - 01:26 AM
#11 Posted 04 July 2022 - 01:30 AM
Oh I'm always down for any and all map talk! Down to give this humble grind a try later myself as well. If this can be of any help, there also are steroids on top of the ventilation shaft on that starting rooftop (in addition to the ones down below), maybe snatching those ones on the go is a more direct route than going for the ones under the grates (allows you to cut corners), but if you've kept trying and grinding a bit then you've probably found those by now. The placement of that item should allow you to finish the map in basically two straight lines.
Honestly I'm pretty stoked on that skip, feels like a nod to how people speedrun Hollywood Holocaust but more accessible and spectacular, just similar in nature.
Honestly I'm pretty stoked on that skip, feels like a nod to how people speedrun Hollywood Holocaust but more accessible and spectacular, just similar in nature.
This post has been edited by ck3D: 04 July 2022 - 01:37 AM
#12 Posted 04 July 2022 - 02:47 PM
Well, after trying that route, there's good news and bad news: The good news is that now sub 10 is definitely possible, but the bad news is that it's much harder to do consistently. My route for a 10.23 is as follows:
Hold S as you boot up the map to make Duke drop onto the ledge behind him instead of landing on the floor. Jump up to the ventilation system, grab the Steroids there and immediately use them. Then, time a jump using the vent system as a ramp, angle yourself around the building with the lift in it, and if your timing was good enough, hopefully you should sail past the fence without landing on it or the small platform right next to it. That's the difficult part over, you just need to land directly on an Atomic Health to break your fall and keep you healthy, and then run for the exit, making sure to not miss it of course.
What makes this much harder to do than it should be is you can't afford to land on the fence or the small platform. When Duke lands on a surface with a great enough height difference, he pauses momentarily, which loses time (I'll call this "slow landing" for now until I think of a better name). Ideally you only want to slow land twice (once for the Atomic Health platform and the other for the path to the exit), which means you'll only bleed a handful of frames. Additionally the jump around the lift building is also quite inconsistent; many attempts I either got clipped by the building's rough geometry or I just hit the fence.
Very rarely I was able to prevent a slow land AND fall damage on the final stretch by landing on a Pig Cop, but my runs always died pretty quickly after that. Hypothetically it would be possible to skip both slow lands by just landing on a Pig Cop on the final stretch, but that's grade A Build jank I don't want to bank on.
Hold S as you boot up the map to make Duke drop onto the ledge behind him instead of landing on the floor. Jump up to the ventilation system, grab the Steroids there and immediately use them. Then, time a jump using the vent system as a ramp, angle yourself around the building with the lift in it, and if your timing was good enough, hopefully you should sail past the fence without landing on it or the small platform right next to it. That's the difficult part over, you just need to land directly on an Atomic Health to break your fall and keep you healthy, and then run for the exit, making sure to not miss it of course.
What makes this much harder to do than it should be is you can't afford to land on the fence or the small platform. When Duke lands on a surface with a great enough height difference, he pauses momentarily, which loses time (I'll call this "slow landing" for now until I think of a better name). Ideally you only want to slow land twice (once for the Atomic Health platform and the other for the path to the exit), which means you'll only bleed a handful of frames. Additionally the jump around the lift building is also quite inconsistent; many attempts I either got clipped by the building's rough geometry or I just hit the fence.
Very rarely I was able to prevent a slow land AND fall damage on the final stretch by landing on a Pig Cop, but my runs always died pretty quickly after that. Hypothetically it would be possible to skip both slow lands by just landing on a Pig Cop on the final stretch, but that's grade A Build jank I don't want to bank on.
This post has been edited by Quacken: 04 July 2022 - 02:48 PM
#13 Posted 04 July 2022 - 04:11 PM
I'm really stoked on that skip, it's the most fun challenge, I just tried the first route you had mentioned for ten minutes or so and am having a blast, although sub 10 is far away. I'm mostly a keyboard player stuck in the old school ways, I don't know if you're using the mouse for movement like modern or just skilled players do, but I can get sub 13 pretty consistently (actually hitting the exact right frames pretty frequently too) with that technique, my best so far is 00:12:26. I need to try using the ventilation system as a ramp. Things I've figured out regarding the original route: you don't even need to step down to that secret lower platform with the portable medkit and can just yolo around from the corner of where the Assault Trooper and Pig Cops are, but that's a pretty obvious optimization that naturally comes with trying, I'm sure you found out; and maybe more interestingly, I found another route, instead of jumping left after snatching the roids, instead go right and along the building with the lift on the same ledge as if you were going for the secret RPG (the set-up actually is perfectly aligned too, so easy jump), spot at 00:41 in DNSKILL's video, then run off at the end and just veer left, with the steroids on you don't even have to jump (may save some precious health upon impact), there too the timing of the fall should be perfect for you to aim at and reach the platform with the Atomic Healths. I've been trying both routes back and forth and actually can't really decide which one is faster in practice. Also, once you land on the Atomic Healths, since I left a few pixels of player space in between the edge of the tall grey ledge and the fence on top, it's actually possible to keep running on top for a while there, gliding along the wall up in the air till you reach the corner which may help getting to the Nukebutton more safely and in a direct straight line, although again I'm not so sure that's really faster, maybe a back-up strat. I often find myself clearing the gate around the 7, 8 second mark then hitting the Nukebutton around the 10 second mark but then the delay of the ending animation takes up so much on the clock, it's basically the two seconds and a half I'm hoping to shave off sometime, somehow. Will definitely be trying this again, sub 10 seems like a fun challenge.
Ah, and there's also been a few odd times where I completely missed the Atomic Healths and yet survived, or had funny stuff happen with Duke literally skipping damage on one if not once on both falls (actually surprised me so much when that happened, I froze still and lost all my time). Like you're saying, there's definitely something to do there trying to land on a car or maybe the border of a sprite would be more likely to generate funny business. I also like how I'm seeing that RPV take off on your original route, because then it goes on towards the Nukebutton and now I wonder if it's possible to involve it or rebound off it at any point (I can't remember how high I placed the locators exactly right now).
Ah, and there's also been a few odd times where I completely missed the Atomic Healths and yet survived, or had funny stuff happen with Duke literally skipping damage on one if not once on both falls (actually surprised me so much when that happened, I froze still and lost all my time). Like you're saying, there's definitely something to do there trying to land on a car or maybe the border of a sprite would be more likely to generate funny business. I also like how I'm seeing that RPV take off on your original route, because then it goes on towards the Nukebutton and now I wonder if it's possible to involve it or rebound off it at any point (I can't remember how high I placed the locators exactly right now).
This post has been edited by ck3D: 04 July 2022 - 04:53 PM
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#14 Posted 04 July 2022 - 05:18 PM
Great map! Visually it is very impressive for a map made in such a short time. From a gameplay standpoint, I appreciate your incorporation of lots of z-axis, and the intelligent re-use of the main street on the way back out when the fissues have opened up and you have to fight your way to the nuke button.
My perception of balance/difficulty is somewhat distorted because I played using my Alien Armageddon mod. One thing that made a LOT harder than in vanilla was the pigcop recons, because in my mod they have hitscan machine guns, and you had a ton of those guys flying high where they were hard to hit. I'm sure they were fine when the map was played as intended, though.
One minor complaint I have is the lack of a holoduke (unless I missed it). I know that item is not very useful in vanilla but its very useful depending on the gameplay mods being used.
My perception of balance/difficulty is somewhat distorted because I played using my Alien Armageddon mod. One thing that made a LOT harder than in vanilla was the pigcop recons, because in my mod they have hitscan machine guns, and you had a ton of those guys flying high where they were hard to hit. I'm sure they were fine when the map was played as intended, though.
One minor complaint I have is the lack of a holoduke (unless I missed it). I know that item is not very useful in vanilla but its very useful depending on the gameplay mods being used.
#15 Posted 05 July 2022 - 01:07 AM
Thank you Dan, I'm happy you enjoyed it. Z-axis consideration is a must in my levels these days (Turnpike I guess being an exception since I was trying to stick to a certain style to a degree) and so is altering terrain mid-game, had I spent more time on this map I probably would have disfigured the environment completely with SE31's instead of just adding earthquakes, but for the intended purpose I thought those would suffice.
It's a very good point you're making about the Holoduke, I actually normally value that item in SP myself but you're making me realize I do tend to sleep on it in my own levels because of how most players I know don't use it but you're right, that's actually wrong and potentially something to be changed, my current episode actually takes advantage of the inventory as far as attempting to teach players some new patterns of usage (i.e.. the steroids are omnipresent and become a sprinting mechanic to accommodate for map scale, lots of jetpack moments and skips if you can find them, etc.); it has one or two useful Holodukes already, but could use many more now that you're making me realize, so thanks for that.
And I bet hitscan recons must have made this map a lot harder; in vanilla/intended they barely really shoot at you until you stand at the wrong window or on the wrong rooftop for too long with unfortunate timing, but besides that they're mostly cosmetic as people have been pointing out (but still a welcome threat I think - you tend to let your guard down after a while, and usually that's exactly when one randomly comes by and decides to shoot at you). Sounds like a cool enemy idea, by the way, I'd like to code in RPV variants for Blast Radius - only haven't looked into it yet because IIRC Recons with a palette are hardcoded not to spawn in (going off decades-old memories so may be mistaken and/or only apply to 1.3d for all I know). Thank you for the feedback.
It's a very good point you're making about the Holoduke, I actually normally value that item in SP myself but you're making me realize I do tend to sleep on it in my own levels because of how most players I know don't use it but you're right, that's actually wrong and potentially something to be changed, my current episode actually takes advantage of the inventory as far as attempting to teach players some new patterns of usage (i.e.. the steroids are omnipresent and become a sprinting mechanic to accommodate for map scale, lots of jetpack moments and skips if you can find them, etc.); it has one or two useful Holodukes already, but could use many more now that you're making me realize, so thanks for that.
And I bet hitscan recons must have made this map a lot harder; in vanilla/intended they barely really shoot at you until you stand at the wrong window or on the wrong rooftop for too long with unfortunate timing, but besides that they're mostly cosmetic as people have been pointing out (but still a welcome threat I think - you tend to let your guard down after a while, and usually that's exactly when one randomly comes by and decides to shoot at you). Sounds like a cool enemy idea, by the way, I'd like to code in RPV variants for Blast Radius - only haven't looked into it yet because IIRC Recons with a palette are hardcoded not to spawn in (going off decades-old memories so may be mistaken and/or only apply to 1.3d for all I know). Thank you for the feedback.
This post has been edited by ck3D: 05 July 2022 - 01:09 AM
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#16 Posted 05 July 2022 - 01:41 AM
ck3D, on 05 July 2022 - 01:07 AM, said:
And I bet hitscan recons must have made this map a lot harder; in vanilla/intended they barely really shoot at you until you stand at the wrong window or on the wrong rooftop for too long with unfortunate timing, but besides that they're mostly cosmetic as people have been pointing out (but still a welcome threat I think - you tend to let your guard down after a while, and usually that's exactly when one randomly comes by and decides to shoot at you).
I need to adjust my code so that they do not engage at such long distance unless they are being shot at. It would have flowed better in my mod if they ignored you and just flew overhead until you got closer to their height -- I'll make that change.
Speaking of non-vanilla things...are you aware of the .blend sprite member (it can be edited in F8 mode)? With the addition of a few files (as some mods use now) you can access a very useful blend effect that makes transparent sprites very bright while retaining their transparency. Here is an example:
I changed .blend to 1 on the spotlight sprite on the left and you can see how much brighter that made it. You could start doing that on your sprite lights and then they would have the brighter appearance when your maps are played in Alien Armageddon, or AMC TC, or in any other mods that use blend.
#17 Posted 05 July 2022 - 01:52 AM
Thank you for the information, actually yes I'm aware of it - had to do it to the lights in my map for Project A.W.O.L., I remember Mblackwell taught me about it. I think it's a great feature (I appreciate that it shouldn't break compatibility with the base game out of eDuke32 too, unless I'm wrong on that - I assume that then the sprites would just default to showing normally) and looks perfect with tons of possible applications, I didn't know you were the author of that. I don't think most user mappers are aware of this and so it's cool to spread the information. Honestly now I have no idea why I haven't used it here or in any of my Duke maps yet - probably a subconscious concern about being rooted in the traditional aesthetics the basic player is used to, sometimes even the slightest variant on detail can tweak a mood off balance if that makes sense, people perceive and interpret the most subtle changes in interesting ways sometimes. But after I'm done with my episode, I want to try my hand at making a map using more of the most recent Mapster features in general, especially rotated textures and sloped sprites are at the top of my interests. I don't know how obvious it is, but in this map all the stretched textures of uncommon purple or orange colors I feel like sort of is a way I've found to come close to the look of the modern palettes people use in mods, all the while actually not going there, but there is inspiration.
This post has been edited by ck3D: 05 July 2022 - 01:55 AM
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#18 Posted 05 July 2022 - 02:01 AM
ck3D, on 05 July 2022 - 01:52 AM, said:
I didn't know you were the author of that.
Oh no I had nothing to do with creating the feature whatsoever, I just use it. But yeah its safe to use in your maps and the sprite would just retain its normal look when played in vanilla.
#21 Posted 06 July 2022 - 08:12 PM
Found a breakthrough which let me achieve a new record of 10.16:
While trying the alternate route CK3D posted of using the right-hand route (which I'm pretty sure is slower overall), I landed on a Pig Cop Tank in one of my attempts. Despite the fall damage death crunch and appropriate Duke sound effect playing, I didn't lose any health, and the screen flashed white instead of red. I'm not sure what the white screen flash means, but in any case, I found a pretty consistent way to avoid the slow land onto the platform with the Atomic Healths by just landing on the Pig Cop Tank at the far right-most part of the final stretch, meaning there's only one slow land in the route now. The hunt is on for sub 10 again!
EDIT: Achieved a 9.62! I pretty quickly found out that the space for landing without dying in the final stretch was quite forgiving. It seems like you just have to hold W and D as soon as you round the bend of the huge fence. If you visualise a line cutting through the furthest away pack of Devastator missiles, anything around or past that and you should be good to land without taking any damage. I also made the route much more consistent, so here it is:
Hold A (not S) as the map boots up to ensure you will land on the back ledge without putting your back up against it, as that shaves a tiny bit of time. Jump across the ventilation shaft, run for the Steroids and immediately activate them. Don't jump immediately. Instead, use the added speed to run onto the ledge that separates the starting area and the secret area, and jump off of this instead. Manoeuvre around the huge fence, taking the turn as tightly as you can without brushing up against it, and hold W and D to ensure you get as far as you can. If you didn't lose any speed from the fence, Duke's legs should miraculously stay put together for long enough so that you can reach the exit switch. Make sure to not miss it!
While trying the alternate route CK3D posted of using the right-hand route (which I'm pretty sure is slower overall), I landed on a Pig Cop Tank in one of my attempts. Despite the fall damage death crunch and appropriate Duke sound effect playing, I didn't lose any health, and the screen flashed white instead of red. I'm not sure what the white screen flash means, but in any case, I found a pretty consistent way to avoid the slow land onto the platform with the Atomic Healths by just landing on the Pig Cop Tank at the far right-most part of the final stretch, meaning there's only one slow land in the route now. The hunt is on for sub 10 again!
EDIT: Achieved a 9.62! I pretty quickly found out that the space for landing without dying in the final stretch was quite forgiving. It seems like you just have to hold W and D as soon as you round the bend of the huge fence. If you visualise a line cutting through the furthest away pack of Devastator missiles, anything around or past that and you should be good to land without taking any damage. I also made the route much more consistent, so here it is:
Hold A (not S) as the map boots up to ensure you will land on the back ledge without putting your back up against it, as that shaves a tiny bit of time. Jump across the ventilation shaft, run for the Steroids and immediately activate them. Don't jump immediately. Instead, use the added speed to run onto the ledge that separates the starting area and the secret area, and jump off of this instead. Manoeuvre around the huge fence, taking the turn as tightly as you can without brushing up against it, and hold W and D to ensure you get as far as you can. If you didn't lose any speed from the fence, Duke's legs should miraculously stay put together for long enough so that you can reach the exit switch. Make sure to not miss it!
This post has been edited by Quacken: 06 July 2022 - 08:26 PM
#22 Posted 06 July 2022 - 10:36 PM
Congrats on sub 10! Haven't been able to since mapping for the whole of last week means I've been behind on work and daily tasks and I'm just catching up now, but I can't wait to give the challenge another try. Honestly may be tough to beat for me I suspect but should be fun either way!
This post has been edited by ck3D: 06 July 2022 - 10:36 PM
#23 Posted 07 July 2022 - 10:55 PM
I spent 20 extra minutes grinding that skip yesterday, now I can pretty consistently score below 12 seconds (I think my best is 00:11:69 unless I've missed a screenshot), sub 10 is still roughly a second and a half away though, but I think that's due to unoptimized movement on my end; by the end of my attempts, I already had figured many, much more ideal angles than the ones I was using originally already. Your idea to cut the whole corner from that first ledge and downright clip over not just the last gate, but also that whole secret rooftop section complete with the white fences is absolute genius, makes what already was a pretty cinematic skip all the more epic, crazy and fun. Maybe one of my errors is not doing the very first strat of backing off onto the ledge very first thing into the map before jumping onto the ventilation system, but I feel like I can be quicker by just changing direction upon spawning and jumping towards the structure at an angle (to hit the corner of the slope, which then allows you to get on vs. hitting the vertical wall) because then I'm always moving forwards in a line that's still rather straight and never backwards, I'm probably bad at estimating timing in this game though (e.g.. when I first thought the rightmost version of the skip may be faster, when in reality it seems about a second longer). I also realized how hugging the wall of the building with the lift really helped consistently clearing the white fences and getting a really good angle a bit late, so the next time I try I should be getting improved results.
Things I've picked up on: there really are only so many scenarii that can go down once you're jumping off the secret ledge depending on positioning and angle, given how one is set up that means they can either:
- miss the angle and white fence or gate skip = failure, in which case I just suicide jump off the building for a quick reload (which experimenting with has allowed me to realize, it's also possible, technically, to reach the red key building from there although most often the player will die from fall damage upon impact);
- miss the angle a bit and successfully skip the white fences, but just barely and then they will safely land right behind them catching the top of the giant, red HOTEL neon sign (if not downright the top of the fence itself), still on steroids and so ready to take off again towards the gate, works as a back-up strat because the extra step is slower but jumping from the sign actually makes it a lot easier to aim for the Atomic Health (if that's ever needed during an attempt);
- get an angle decent enough to skip the fence and hover towards the gate, but still needing an extra step on the gate/Atomic Health platform, that is not optimal but from there onwards at least it's easy to try and get a 'soft landing', or aim for the 'safe zone' Quacken found (pretty insane that this one exists), still enough of an extra step to disqualify for a sub 10 though;
- get an angle decent enough to skip the fence and gate, from that point on one can try hovering towards the safe zone, and both in the former scenario and this one I've tried experimenting with landing on the pixel-wide strip running atop of the wall alongside the sky-high fence a little bit, even trying to strafe at weird angles but since the eventual Nukebutton is central and the wall a side wall, seems to result into a one-second time loss whatever happens;
- get a really good angle to skip everything and land near the Nukebutton, I can seem to get that rather consistently now but still not enough to get sub 10. I've tried seeing if strafing whilst airborne on steroids would be faster, but then you have to reposition yourself before hitting the Nukebutton which might ruin the idea. Also I just noticed how there was this very last couple of fire barrels right about where the player lands and in a direct straight line towards the Nukebutton; it's really quite the good troll, because a few times I got an otherwise really good run (probably would have sub 11'd) only to then lose a second bumping against the hitbox like an imbecile (for a bit I tried shooting at the barrel instead of leaping over it to try and gain time, but sometimes I would miss it).
I think I need more optimal angles and probably more strafing and less time in the air, more on the ground to even have a chance for a sub 10, but the grind is fun, maybe I'll get it.
Things I've picked up on: there really are only so many scenarii that can go down once you're jumping off the secret ledge depending on positioning and angle, given how one is set up that means they can either:
- miss the angle and white fence or gate skip = failure, in which case I just suicide jump off the building for a quick reload (which experimenting with has allowed me to realize, it's also possible, technically, to reach the red key building from there although most often the player will die from fall damage upon impact);
- miss the angle a bit and successfully skip the white fences, but just barely and then they will safely land right behind them catching the top of the giant, red HOTEL neon sign (if not downright the top of the fence itself), still on steroids and so ready to take off again towards the gate, works as a back-up strat because the extra step is slower but jumping from the sign actually makes it a lot easier to aim for the Atomic Health (if that's ever needed during an attempt);
- get an angle decent enough to skip the fence and hover towards the gate, but still needing an extra step on the gate/Atomic Health platform, that is not optimal but from there onwards at least it's easy to try and get a 'soft landing', or aim for the 'safe zone' Quacken found (pretty insane that this one exists), still enough of an extra step to disqualify for a sub 10 though;
- get an angle decent enough to skip the fence and gate, from that point on one can try hovering towards the safe zone, and both in the former scenario and this one I've tried experimenting with landing on the pixel-wide strip running atop of the wall alongside the sky-high fence a little bit, even trying to strafe at weird angles but since the eventual Nukebutton is central and the wall a side wall, seems to result into a one-second time loss whatever happens;
- get a really good angle to skip everything and land near the Nukebutton, I can seem to get that rather consistently now but still not enough to get sub 10. I've tried seeing if strafing whilst airborne on steroids would be faster, but then you have to reposition yourself before hitting the Nukebutton which might ruin the idea. Also I just noticed how there was this very last couple of fire barrels right about where the player lands and in a direct straight line towards the Nukebutton; it's really quite the good troll, because a few times I got an otherwise really good run (probably would have sub 11'd) only to then lose a second bumping against the hitbox like an imbecile (for a bit I tried shooting at the barrel instead of leaping over it to try and gain time, but sometimes I would miss it).
I think I need more optimal angles and probably more strafing and less time in the air, more on the ground to even have a chance for a sub 10, but the grind is fun, maybe I'll get it.
This post has been edited by ck3D: 07 July 2022 - 11:03 PM
#24 Posted 07 July 2022 - 11:04 PM
Great work on the progress, keep trying and I'm hoping you'll eventually get it! I use keyboard and mouse, so for a keyboard only player such as yourself (if I'm reading that right) the required movement would surely be much more difficult for you than it is for me. I don't really have any further tips for you unfortunately - I haven't gone back to this map ever since I got sub 10 as I was content with just getting both the time and a phone screenshot for it, so the only way I could help you further is if I were to do this speedrun keyboard only (which I'm not going to do). I think sub 9 is barely possible with the best movement you can do on keyboard or mouse, or if an extremely dumb and janky strategy is found, like clipping straight through the huge fence or something. Honestly, I'm still not sure why that safe zone with the soft landing even exists - by all accounts I really should have just died when I landed on that Pig Cop Tank, but Build jank just keeps alluding me time and time again.
This post has been edited by Quacken: 07 July 2022 - 11:05 PM
#26 Posted 09 July 2022 - 07:43 AM
Great map! I was taking my time exploring everything, the map took me 40 minutes. I found 9 secrets so I'm still missing 3.
You were right, I did enjoy this one a lot more than Turnpike. Overall it's just a stronger map in terms of layout, design and combat. The size of the street area is actually quite impressive and it looks visually striking, I always love these large city areas in Duke. The indoor sections are full of fun little touches and details that make them stand out. From the usage of textures to little quirks like the smartphone in the bathroom of the XXX building.
I also really enjoy the usage of vertical space, although the start of the map is pretty rough. I took a lot of fall damage trying to figure out where I was supposed to go. In fact I think the start of the map is by far the hardest, my health went below 20 a couple of times. Once the map opens up and you get more supplies it gets a lot easier. Finding the devastator and the jetpack was a real gamechanger (felt very rewarding to find them!). After that you gain access to various secrets and atomic health. In terms of combat, I liked the ambush at the yellow keycard area the most, that one was tense and a lot of fun. I agree with Quacken that the final battle felt a bit repetetive, at that point I was running out of chaingun and shotgun ammo which made the sentry drones a lot more annoying to deal with. They're notoriously hard to hit with explosives.
On the other hand, I understand why you went with drones and pig tanks for the final battle, they're the most effective opposition in such a wide environment.
Octobrains wouldn't get the slightest change to even hit you (although blowing up a octo cloud would have been fun haha).
I did end up using the freezer and the expander a lot on the pig cops, which was a pretty nice change of pace.
Overall a very enjoyable entry in your 'speed map' series, probably the best of the 3.
You were right, I did enjoy this one a lot more than Turnpike. Overall it's just a stronger map in terms of layout, design and combat. The size of the street area is actually quite impressive and it looks visually striking, I always love these large city areas in Duke. The indoor sections are full of fun little touches and details that make them stand out. From the usage of textures to little quirks like the smartphone in the bathroom of the XXX building.
I also really enjoy the usage of vertical space, although the start of the map is pretty rough. I took a lot of fall damage trying to figure out where I was supposed to go. In fact I think the start of the map is by far the hardest, my health went below 20 a couple of times. Once the map opens up and you get more supplies it gets a lot easier. Finding the devastator and the jetpack was a real gamechanger (felt very rewarding to find them!). After that you gain access to various secrets and atomic health. In terms of combat, I liked the ambush at the yellow keycard area the most, that one was tense and a lot of fun. I agree with Quacken that the final battle felt a bit repetetive, at that point I was running out of chaingun and shotgun ammo which made the sentry drones a lot more annoying to deal with. They're notoriously hard to hit with explosives.
On the other hand, I understand why you went with drones and pig tanks for the final battle, they're the most effective opposition in such a wide environment.
Octobrains wouldn't get the slightest change to even hit you (although blowing up a octo cloud would have been fun haha).
I did end up using the freezer and the expander a lot on the pig cops, which was a pretty nice change of pace.
Overall a very enjoyable entry in your 'speed map' series, probably the best of the 3.
This post has been edited by Merlijn: 09 July 2022 - 07:44 AM
#27 Posted 07 August 2022 - 02:57 AM
Late post but thanks for the feedback Merlijn, I've seen several players mention the size of the city but really I think it's just the right dimensions on every axis to (maybe even barely) accommodate the gameplay, structure is where it needs be but generally it's some pretty simplistic design in terms of scale, I figure people are mostly vibing with that aspect since that's still a bit larger than the base E1/E3 user maps but part of that also is due to how so many level chunks had to be cut and curated to match the restrictions inherent to 1996 and have the game run on 486's, arguably the final balance was perfect but one could also say the action in those E1/E3 maps was greatly restricted at the end of the day compared to what the raw game mechanics would have allowed hadn't technology been a concern. But I know you know what I mean since pretty much all your releases always really consisted in experiments around pushing the engine certain ways to see if or demonstrate that it could withhold them.
The fall damage near the start I think is pretty cool, makes the player feel vulnerable before they become familiar with their environment, so that it really feels like playing something fresh a bit more instead of expecting Atomic Healths with every high drop that would render the whole design non-hazardous (and funnily enough the Atomic Healths are all there still, but you need to spot them and look for them; on the other hand I tried counterbalancing that with some very cliché secrets that should be natural to find to anyone familiar with E1L2, although it's mostly weaponry that's held in there). It's great to read you liked the tunnel fight, I'm pretty happy with it too, again that's some very simple design (involving backtracking even) and yet the action seems to sell it.
Re: drones, I'm regularly pretty amazed by how most people don't seem to realize how the expander is the true MVP against them - basically erases them out of existence in half a second. Doesn't seem to be common knowledge or at least not as much as I always assumed it was. I have no idea what most people who generally hate on drones tend to try using against them but besides the pipebombs everything else in Duke's arsenal is potentially problematic in terms of match-up.
Radar's video that they posted a few weeks back:
The fall damage near the start I think is pretty cool, makes the player feel vulnerable before they become familiar with their environment, so that it really feels like playing something fresh a bit more instead of expecting Atomic Healths with every high drop that would render the whole design non-hazardous (and funnily enough the Atomic Healths are all there still, but you need to spot them and look for them; on the other hand I tried counterbalancing that with some very cliché secrets that should be natural to find to anyone familiar with E1L2, although it's mostly weaponry that's held in there). It's great to read you liked the tunnel fight, I'm pretty happy with it too, again that's some very simple design (involving backtracking even) and yet the action seems to sell it.
Re: drones, I'm regularly pretty amazed by how most people don't seem to realize how the expander is the true MVP against them - basically erases them out of existence in half a second. Doesn't seem to be common knowledge or at least not as much as I always assumed it was. I have no idea what most people who generally hate on drones tend to try using against them but besides the pipebombs everything else in Duke's arsenal is potentially problematic in terms of match-up.
Radar's video that they posted a few weeks back:
#28 Posted 07 August 2022 - 02:14 PM
ck3D, on 07 August 2022 - 02:57 AM, said:
Re: drones, I'm regularly pretty amazed by how most people don't seem to realize how the expander is the true MVP against them - basically erases them out of existence in half a second. Doesn't seem to be common knowledge or at least not as much as I always assumed it was. I have no idea what most people who generally hate on drones tend to try using against them but besides the pipebombs everything else in Duke's arsenal is potentially problematic in terms of match-up.
My weapon of choice for Drones is usually the Chaingun, it stun locks them pretty well and the Chaingun isn't entirely needed for anything else. Pipe Bombs are usually rare and I don't like using them on Drones, as they take like three to kill a group of them. They're much more useful around tight corners when on low health or for secret-hunting. I had no idea about the Expander on Drones though, I assumed since it took the same slot as the Shrinker that they would be unaffected by it. Good tip!
#29 Posted 09 August 2022 - 05:56 PM
Wow, I love it! One of the very best large-scale city maps I've played for sure. Reminded me a bit of those huge city levels in Lame Duke, but much better executed.
#30 Posted 10 August 2022 - 03:13 PM
I think it's really impressive you made this big ass map in only 4 days to be honest, good job (music kicks ass too btw, what song is that?)
This post has been edited by juvenite: 10 August 2022 - 03:20 PM
