[Aleks]

Well, but since Duke 3D, Duke actually is the ultimate feminist. Think about it - the whole game revolves about a chad (being every woman's wet dream) killing literal chauvinistic pigs (and other creatures who obviously are a symbols for patriarchy - just think about it, they are the epitome of violent male traits, battle-LORD, Overlord, Cycloid EMPEROR - all about waging war and power/control) and defending women, who themselves are strong (they are the only humans left in the world, after all) and liberated (they're basically exclusively sex workers). And you get punished with respawning monsters for hurting these women, even by accident.

[DisgustedGrunt]

Aleks, on 22 September 2021 - 11:37 AM, said:

Well, but since Duke 3D, Duke actually is the ultimate feminist. Think about it - the whole game revolves about a chad (being every woman's wet dream) killing literal chauvinistic pigs (and other creatures who obviously are a symbols for patriarchy - just think about it, they are the epitome of violent male traits, battle-LORD, Overlord, Cycloid EMPEROR - all about waging war and power/control) and defending women, who themselves are strong (they are the only humans left in the world, after all) and liberated (they're basically exclusively sex workers). And you get punished with respawning monsters for hurting these women, even by accident.

[Forge]

you will never capture lightning in a bottle again

one of the main reasons the game was so popular were all the pop culture references.

there is no pop culture any more. What we have left after gamer gate is a bunch of socialist wokists.

there is absolutely no way a large gaming company will produced or distribute a product about a cis-gender white male mocking blm, antifa, lgbtqabcdefg+, open borders, pussy hats, etc., etc., etc.
then it also has to cater to the chinese market because that's where most of the potential purchasing power is

and Randy will never let an indie developer grasp the i.p. from the clutches of his sand-filled pussy

[Aristotle Gumball]

Forge, on 23 September 2021 - 06:55 AM, said:

you will never capture lightning in a bottle again

one of the main reasons the game was so popular were all the pop culture references.

there is no pop culture any more. What we have left after gamer gate is a bunch is socialist wokists.

Yeah, everything is lame now. People are going back to the 80s and 90s for gaming inspiration, but they should just fucking live in the past at this point because Western culture is dead. Sift through the dirt like an archeologist trying to find those hidden artifacts. There is so much music, movies and games that got made when human beings were more normal and inspired by better things (i.e. more risky and nuanced), that it's really a waste to only pay attention to the most recent products. I mean ,we aren't fucking boomers crying about how things used to be back in our day. Our parents might've been like that because of misguided religious dogma, but if you're someone who grew up in the 90s (the last good era), you def noticed the gradual decline in terms of restrictions on creative freedom and everything becoming more shallow. And I'll say all day long that art is subjective, but it's not about some individual piece of work, it's about a general trend, of which we can definitely make objective determinations.

[Fox]

I moved part of the discussion that was going on here.

Quite sure these posts would kill some brain cells

[NightFright]

This topic quickly turned into pure BS gold. Randy would approve.

[Phredreeke]

Duke except he's the singer in an indie rock band

[bullerbullerseven]

I will always hope for a new duke game in the future.
It's obvious that things have changed, there are many things you can't say now, which you could in the 90's. But people here are taking it way too serious.
It's like the 12 year wait for duke nukem forever turned you into grandpa's. Hating everything that isn't the good old duke3d. It's so depressive to visit this site xD

[Phredreeke]

bullerbullerseven, on 23 September 2021 - 05:14 PM, said:

Hating everything that isn't the good old duke3d. It's so depressive to visit this site xD

Ion Fury? Doom 2016? Dusk? Blood Fresh Supply? (Ok maybe not Fresh Supply lol)

[Aristotle Gumball]

I mean, as far as shooters, IF and Doom 2016 are about it. Dusk is too derivative to really count and Blood FS is just a port. But where are all the good games in other genres? There used to be edgy and atmospheric racing games (Carmageddon, POD, Rollcage, etc). Tactical/strategy games like C&C and Total Annihilation. Everything is either a retread of some older thing with all the soul sucked out of it or just a plain boring and corporatized, design-by-committee mess, meant for the lowest common denominator. I don't care about debating why that is, but it does seem to be the case. Occasionally I'll watch newer movies and TV series, and so much it is fucking terrible, man. There's always this insidious undercurrent of woke politics. Like you can almost forget it's there until something particularly egregious shakes you up and then you can't unsee it anymore. The Candyman remake is a good example - or holy shit, what about the new Watchmen series that is just a commentary on Trump and BLM? Quentin Tarantino said it's the "new 80s". I don't think so. You still had cool shit come out in the 80s all the time. It's so rare nowadays, and many of the cultural and political trends happening right now don't seem like they're easily undone, and if they are undone, it will be a complete reversal towards the opposite extreme, which brings its own set of problems. People who have right wing views (yet still consume alternative entertainment media) don't realize many of their favorite things would be banned by religious conservatives and/or neo-Nazi types. It's not just the US, the same trends are observable in the entirety of the Western world. Everyone has turned into a bunch of retards wanting to ban things the "other side" loves. I mean, of course that isn't the only negative thing about it, but it is the most easily noticed aspect.

But hey uh, can't wait to see what this nu Duke project will be. So fuggin' excited!

[MrFlibble]

Futa Orc, on 24 September 2021 - 01:24 AM, said:

But where are all the good games in other genres? There used to be edgy and atmospheric racing games (Carmageddon, POD, Rollcage, etc). Tactical/strategy games like C&C and Total Annihilation. Everything is either a retread of some older thing with all the soul sucked out of it or just a plain boring and corporatized, design-by-committee mess, meant for the lowest common denominator.

It appears that the gaming landscape has changed very drastically, and what we thought of as more or less "mainstream" games back in the 90s is now extremely niche, something you gotta look for specifically. While on the surface it's either "casual" "games" or the so-called "AAA" projects that are intended not only to please the widest audience possible, but also to be accessible to as many people as possible.

Being a regular video game player for a long time, it's easy to forget that playing many "serious" games, hey, even Doom, requires some learning and skill development. But apparently, many just want a fix of light entertainment with minimum effort, and to feel good without actually investing in it.

So if you want RTS games, here's Annex: Conquer the World, Wyrmsun, The Fertile Crescent, Subpar Commander, Fractured Realms. Are these being covered anywhere in gaming media? Not in the headlines for sure. You have to wade through a sea of indie stuff (Google search is a hideous tool for anything that is not advertised and/or widely known already, and the Internet is full of copy-paste "10 best games" garbage) in hopes that someone, somewhere has interests and aesthetic values similar to your own, and is actually also talented enough to create a working game based on those. Fun times, eh?

[Aristotle Gumball]

I respect anyone who can create something complicated from scratch, but yeah, when I said C&C I meant almost everything but the actual gameplay of it. The story told through entertaining cutscenes, the graphics, sound design, just the whole vibe of it. That's the "soul" I'm talking about, and what seems to be missing in these indie projects. But I get what's going on and respect people's creativity and tenacity in keeping some of these genres alive, even if at some vestigial level.

[MusicallyInspired]

bullerbullerseven, on 23 September 2021 - 05:14 PM, said:

I will always hope for a new duke game in the future.
It's obvious that things have changed, there are many things you can't say now, which you could in the 90's. But people here are taking it way too serious.
It's like the 12 year wait for duke nukem forever turned you into grandpa's. Hating everything that isn't the good old duke3d. It's so depressive to visit this site xD

There are plenty of fans of Manhattan Project. So much so that it has a modding community.

[MrFlibble]

Futa Orc, on 24 September 2021 - 03:19 AM, said:

when I said C&C I meant almost everything but the actual gameplay of it. The story told through entertaining cutscenes, the graphics, sound design, just the whole vibe of it. That's the "soul" I'm talking about, and what seems to be missing in these indie projects.

There's a mod/TC made by a one-man team under the title Dawn of Tomorrow. Among other things, the author created new animated briefing videos with voice acting.

[bullerbullerseven]

Can you name a modern game or game series that is good in your opinions?'

Manhatten project was released around 2001 if i remember correctly.
The other games you mentioned, Phredreek, are all 90's inspired.

What about games like Dark Souls, Bioshock or maybe some RPG/JRPG series?
You talk about soul in games, are there any modern games/series with soul?

[MusicallyInspired]

Doom 2016, Doom Eternal, Half-Life Alyx, No Man's Sky, Subnautica, Quern - Undying Thoughts, Obduction, Age of Empires IV (I was in on the beta), and The Witness are all great and have been (or will be) released during the past 5 years. I can go all the way back to 2001 if you like but that's not what you asked.

But miss me with that Call of Duty/Medal of Honour/Battlefield/Battlefront EA garbage.

[ck3D]

bullerbullerseven, on 25 September 2021 - 06:39 AM, said:

Can you name a modern game or game series that is good in your opinions?'

Manhatten project was released around 2001 if i remember correctly.
The other games you mentioned, Phredreek, are all 90's inspired.

What about games like Dark Souls, Bioshock or maybe some RPG/JRPG series?
You talk about soul in games, are there any modern games/series with soul?

From basically a non-gamer perpective which I'm sure will show, one game to have left such an impression on me in the recent years has been Cuphead. And of course, funnily enough, it plays like a NES game on steroids. Ticks all the right boxes though: fun factor, simultaneously catchy and artsy aesthetics, and a passion project with nothing but quality in mind from indie devs originally. Now there are a lot of those but this one somehow became a mainstream hit.

I never found the time and focus to get back to you but I did play your Bioshock map a few times since we last brought it up, by the way. Every time I didn't manage to complete it due to getting stuck (and every time my own fault), but I've been enjoying it. I still want to bump the thread with my review/criticism once I have completed it, except this one for some reason I don't want to cheat my way through or use video playthroughs for and seem to want to insist on passing legit. In the meantime, I hope you plan on making more maps because you're obviously great at the craft. Not so sure why everyone keeps projecting their own expectations for the hypothetical next Duke game at this point when it's been clear for years now that although they don't own the actual rights on paper, in practice the fan base has clearly reappropriated itself the franchise, fan projects being 100% of the Duke content that's actually coming out and almost by definition bound to have any kind of soul to it.

[Aristotle Gumball]

bullerbullerseven, on 25 September 2021 - 06:39 AM, said:

What about games like Dark Souls, Bioshock or maybe some RPG/JRPG series?
You talk about soul in games, are there any modern games/series with soul?

Very hard to come up with names honestly. the Stalker series is good and original. Still fairly modern I guess and even depicts suicide, which was a fucking awesome gut punching moment in a video game that reminded me of the "good days". I'm personally not into Bioshock because it's just a ripoff of System Shock 2 set underwater, but I didn't hate it. It is good, I guess. It's not like I haven't played and enjoyed games made in the last 15-20 years, but there was an excitement with almost everything that was coming out in the 90s until the early 2000s because not only had we never seen the gameplay before (maybe it was even a new genre), there might've been a graphical/technological advancement as well. Genres are settled now and developers tend not to go out on a limb anymore with crazy experiments. Everyone uses either Unity or Unreal, which is boring (although convenient for them, I know).

Anyone can come up with at least one or two good games, but those are just exceptions that prove the rule IMO.

And if there's any social critical or philosophical content to the story, God forbid you stray from corporate leftism. Everyone's pulling punches, man. That's why I mention TV's and movies - it's all-pervasive.

Spec Ops: The Line was good.

But yeah, outside of Doom 2016 and a few scattered indie titles, the last 5 years are a complete bust for me. Triple-A games are more boring and sterile than ever.

[bullerbullerseven]

Ck3d.
You can just get back to me on personal messages instead of the old thread if you want.
Cuphead is one of the games i liked the most in recent times too, it is unique, and i love tough games.


Futa Orc.
I honestly see the 90's shooters as being pretty much the same, they also run on a lot of the same engines. Same gameplay, same style with a protaghonist that has to be macho.
But it's true, it's hard to come up with something new now that gaming has been around for a while. But that's just more of a reason to have respect for a developer that creates something unique.
Even though Doom2016 is an old recipe, it was brought back in a really good way that is both old and modern. Doom eternal is also a really good game in my opinion, but many people don't like it because it's too different.

What did you like about Spec Ops: The Line? Personally i didn't like it at all. Gameplay and story was boring, but the atmosphere was good.

I haven't played System Shock even though i want to, but my impression after seeing videos is that the atmosphere and settings are alike, but there is more to gaming than that.

[MusicallyInspired]

Doom Eternal is so much better than 2016. I can barely go back to Doom 2016 now. I'm addicted to the combat formula.

I've heard amazing things about Spec Ops: The Line. I have it but have yet to play it. I took it for yet another military action game but everyone has told me it actually is very self aware and not what you'd expect. Someday I hope to give it a go when I feel like it.

[Aristotle Gumball]

bullerbullerseven, on 25 September 2021 - 08:38 AM, said:

Futa Orc.
I honestly see the 90's shooters as being pretty much the same, they also run on a lot of the same engines. Same gameplay, same style with a protaghonist that has to be macho.

What did you like about Spec Ops: The Line? Personally i didn't like it at all. Gameplay and story was boring, but the atmosphere was good.

I haven't played System Shock even though i want to, but my impression after seeing videos is that the atmosphere and settings are alike, but there is more to gaming than that.

1) Like I said, this isn't just the case with shooters. I played a wider range of games in the 90s than I do now, because actually everything felt more "macho", if you wanna use that word. Inclusivity wasn't the keyword with every piece of entertainment media. What can I say? Beyond a predilection for apt social critique/satire (which partly Duke was too), I am a man and I enjoy manly things. Like big fat veiny dicks up my ass. What? But y'know what I mean, hopefully. Everything is all colorful and friendly now while the world is still as ugly as it ever was, and perhaps more so. Media isn't reflecting reality anymore and people are not being challenged by the art they consume, which creates a sense of safety that is not real.

2) Gameplay wise it wasn't reinventing the wheel, but I liked how the story challenged you. Maybe it isn't for you or maybe you're a simpleton who didn't get it. Who knows. One of the few games where a morality mechanic doesn't seem shoehorned in.

3) Lol, Bioshock is literally the fucking same game as System Shock 2, with the exception of those Big Daddies/Little Girls, which is an example of a shitty moral mechanic.

[Phredreeke]

bullerbullerseven, on 25 September 2021 - 06:39 AM, said:

Can you name a modern game or game series that is good in your opinions?'

Manhatten project was released around 2001 if i remember correctly.
The other games you mentioned, Phredreek, are all 90's inspired.

What about games like Dark Souls, Bioshock or maybe some RPG/JRPG series?
You talk about soul in games, are there any modern games/series with soul?

I mentioned Blood Fresh Supply as a joke (most people around here think it's awful), and deliberately limited it to the FPS genre (as I assumed that was what you were talking about). Also you never said the games couldn't be 90s inspired.

BTW the first two Bioshock games came out before DNF did...

[Master O]

Ninety-Six, on 22 September 2021 - 11:26 AM, said:

See I agree with that in spirit, the problem is Gearbox doesn't. They recently gave a half-assed lazy excuse that they won't rerelease Life's a Beach and Duke It Out in D.C. because of sexism and racism.

When in reality it's because they can't be bothered and would rather throw an -ism out to win brownie points with the idiots.

https://www.zoom-pla...-atomic-edition sells Atomic Edition plus all of the above mission packs, so we don't need to care what Gearbox does on that front.

[Ninety-Six]

I know, but not even we knew about zoom for a while. The masses are still SOL, and we are still that much farther away from a complete collection under one roof like what Doom and Quake have.


The fact that Gearbox themselves won't even sell the original two games is equally pathetic. They put up inferior versions of previous releases, overcharge for broken messes, rush out pathetic products, do nothing to acknowledge anything else Duke has been in, and then go "well nobody likes the brand, obviously" said the glue-sniffer sitting on the entire library.

[OpenMaw]

The game industry boomed and was at its best when the developers were able to innovate and take risks. id's entire early run is one innovation after another.


Right now we're caught between very safe very homogenized games from the big developers, the absolute dumpster fire of mobile, and the nostalgia bombs of the indies.

Caught in all this are a few games that are trying to be something original, and it's INCREDIBLY hard to get above the water line and get noticed.


RTS games, as I knew the, have basically been dead since the oughts. Third Person Shooters are mostly boring plug-and-play affairs with stock mechanics, the FPS genre gave us Doom 2016, which was great, and Doom Eternal, which I don't care for.

[Sangman]

So, do you guys think services like the game pass will lead to a comeback of more innovative gameplay ideas given that the publishers have a bit more financial security (due to existing subscription money) in case such games aren't succesful?

[FRVIND]

Sangman, on 26 September 2021 - 11:47 AM, said:

So, do you guys think services like the game pass will lead to a comeback of more innovative gameplay ideas given that the publishers have a bit more financial security (due to existing subscription money) in case such games aren't succesful?

...maybe. The impression is that these days people are in a hurry to come up with games of a frightening banality. I see many kids playing games on Android that really shit only if we compare them to some games of the beloved Commodore 64. It is necessary that fewer titles come out but well built, that have a spirit and are long-lived: for example, it is unthinkable that to buy lives and go on in the game just the credit card and that's it, a real game must be an effort and not a simple distraction ...

[FRVIND]

... and in fact in Duke 3D what is the effort? graphically improving the game is an effort, but also committing to Mapster for a beautiful map is an effort and a challenge. Here is the key to longevity

[OpenMaw]

"Games as a service" Is anti consumer and cancerous to game development.

Yeah, it secures the publishers financially, but that doesn't mean they're suddenly going to relinguish more control to the developers.

On the other hand, if not for Steam, I don't think the self-publishing market would be nearly as fruitful. Steam lets the small fry get their foot in the door in a way that no other platform does.

The problem with Steam is that ultimately it is in the control of Valve, and if their management suddenly changed drastically, Steam could basically screw a lot of people.

[DisgustedGrunt]

OpenMaw, on 27 September 2021 - 12:56 PM, said:

On the other hand, if not for Steam, I don't think the self-publishing market would be nearly as fruitful. Steam lets the small fry get their foot in the door in a way that no other platform does.

Even players/ customers. i was a pirate for the bigger part of my (gaming) life, at first because i was a kid with no money, then because i didn't knew better (I remember seeing a PS4 game on a shelf somewhere and the price scared the crap outta me). Then a friend convinced me to try Team Fortress 2 and since it was free i created a Steam account, and that led to me finding out that games wheren't that expensive (thanks regional prices). Since that day i haven't pirated a single game, i even suffered from "pirate's remorse" and went back and bought a ton of games i loved over the years, and I discovered a ton of games i had never played and i ended loving them too (Blood and the Thief series comes to mind). If it wasn't for Steam i would still be a pirate, because the prices on other stores are way above what i would be comfortable paying for a videogame, even if i enjoy playing.