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"FreeDuke" Assets?

User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#1

Doom has FreeDoom. Does Duke have a FreeDuke asset pack? I know many many years ago someone had made a DaveNukem mod which replaced all the assets, but it got shut down way back in the 3DR days, which i thought was bullshit. Has anyone done anything like this since?
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User is online   MrFlibble 

#2

This was leileilol's project and it was called Dave 3D, and it got C&D'd rather early on in development before it was completed to any extent. Someone archived the assets that had been available on ModDB somewhere (I might remember the link), but IIRC there were only a few first-person weapons, some textures and possibly props, a 3D rendered and rather busty replacement for the stripper, and a stick figure (literally) placeholder enemy.

It has always been my understanding that 3DR was so keen on stamping out any imitation of Duke3D (including user-made levels for other 3D games) that no one ever bothered to try making a project like that since. Contrast that with Freed∞m, which was discussed with John Carmack at one point and he gave a general approval.

But since you mention this, I've been thinking that maybe a free / libre assets project for nBlood could be a good idea, considering that nBlood is not directly a source port of Blood. Although I have the impression that it would take a lot more work and effort to complete compared to Freed∞m or Blasphemer due to the sheer amount of stuff to do. Or are you interested in this as a potential basis for your own project?

This post has been edited by MrFlibble: 13 September 2021 - 11:28 AM

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User is online   Phredreeke 

#3

Well, 3DR doesn't own the Duke IP and as much as we all like to shit on Gearbox they don't seem bothered about fan projects.

As for a free/libre asset pack for Blood, that effort would probably be better spent making a new game (possibly spiritual successor to Blood)

What Blood has is in a way the reverse of FreeDoom, in that the Transfusion project got permission to use Blood assets with the stipulation that they can't use Blood in the name. Of course Transfusion itself hasn't been worked on for like a decade.
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User is offline   Kralex 

#4

View PostMrFlibble, on 13 September 2021 - 11:27 AM, said:

This was leileilol's project and it was called Dave 3D, and it got C&D'd rather early on in development before it was completed to any extent. Someone archived the assets that had been available on ModDB somewhere (I might remember the link), but IIRC there were only a few first-person weapons, some textures and possibly props, a 3D rendered and rather busty replacement for the stripper, and a stick figure (literally) placeholder enemy.

It has always been my understanding that 3DR was so keen on stamping out any imitation of Duke3D (including user-made levels for other 3D games) that no one ever bothered to try making a project like that since. Contrast that with Freed∞m, which was discussed with John Carmack at one point and he gave a general approval.

But since you mention this, I've been thinking that maybe a free / libre assets project for nBlood could be a good idea, considering that nBlood is not directly a source port of Blood. Although I have the impression that it would take a lot more work and effort to complete compared to Freed∞m or Blasphemer due to the sheer amount of stuff to do. Or are you interested in this as a potential basis for your own project?


Here are the Dave 3D assets if you are interested, like Mr Flibble said there is very little done.
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#5

View PostPhredreeke, on 13 September 2021 - 01:42 PM, said:

Well, 3DR doesn't own the Duke IP and as much as we all like to shit on Gearbox they don't seem bothered about fan projects.


Gearbox shut down Cataclysm.
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User is online   Phredreeke 

#6

I was told that C&D was fake
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User is online   MrFlibble 

#7

I has occurred to me that there are probably enough original character sprites (made from scratch that is, and not reimagining monsters from existing games), first person weapons and other props made by sebabdukeboss20 for AA, AMC TC and Demon Throne to quickly throw together a robust prototype of a Build engine game (textures can be always borrowed from Freed∞m and co. and/or OpenGameArt).

And if sebabdukeboss20 agrees to release said sprites under a free license, a libre Build game might be closer to happening than you'd think.

This post has been edited by MrFlibble: 15 September 2021 - 02:12 AM

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User is online   Phredreeke 

#8

View PostMrFlibble, on 15 September 2021 - 02:11 AM, said:

And if sebabdukeboss20 agrees to release said sprites under a free license, a libre Build game might be closer to happening than you'd think.


Except people are gonna argue that Build License's non-commercial clause makes it non-free
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User is online   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#9

View PostMrFlibble, on 15 September 2021 - 02:11 AM, said:

I has occurred to me that there are probably enough original character sprites (made from scratch that is, and not reimagining monsters from existing games), first person weapons and other props made by sebabdukeboss20 for AA, AMC TC and Demon Throne to quickly throw together a robust prototype of a Build engine game (textures can be always borrowed from Freed∞m and co. and/or OpenGameArt).

And if sebabdukeboss20 agrees to release said sprites under a free license, a libre Build game might be closer to happening than you'd think.


Yeah that's already the plan. Some day I would like to be able to release AA and other Duke mods as standalone games without worrying about it.
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#10

View PostPhredreeke, on 14 September 2021 - 04:05 PM, said:

I was told that C&D was fake


Wait wat
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#11

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 15 September 2021 - 05:35 PM, said:

Wait wat

https://twitter.com/...969928868319232

The original tweet randy was answering to was removed, but basically the k3 guy accused randy and gbx of taking down DNC, and randy said this in response.
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User is offline   Reaper_Man 

  • Once and Future King

#12

View PostDanukem, on 15 September 2021 - 10:31 AM, said:

Yeah that's already the plan. Some day I would like to be able to release AA and other Duke mods as standalone games without worrying about it.


Do you mean as a retail product, or just as a standalone executable?

This post has been edited by Reaper_Man: 16 September 2021 - 07:14 AM

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User is online   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#13

View PostReaper_Man, on 16 September 2021 - 07:12 AM, said:

Do you mean as a retail product, or just as a standalone executable?


When I say I want to be able to release Duke mods as standalones, I mean as free standalone games, not retail. Demon Throne is already like that. By the time the complete replacement pack for vanilla Duke is finished nearly all the assets will have already been released in AMC and AA anyway. The idea of releasing something for free for many years and then suddenly trying to make people pay for it rubs me the wrong way, and I don't think that move would be well received. If I'm going to try a commercial release it should be something new imo.
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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#14

View PostFuturetime23, on 15 September 2021 - 06:23 PM, said:

https://twitter.com/...969928868319232

The original tweet randy was answering to was removed, but basically the k3 guy accused randy and gbx of taking down DNC, and randy said this in response.


This is the first time I've heard this. I love being left out of a conversation that involved my project.

This just goes to show how much my disdain and distrust of Gearbox is justified. He never once emailed me directly regarding Cataclysm. It wasn't "fake" it was, at least I was led to believe, either a gross misunderstanding or an outright fraud that was emailed to me. Randy basically said 'so you're free to do it' but this was years after the project had died. So Randy and I were in talks to get a free license in place to make a freeware project in UE4. Which he never bothered to follow up on even after I sent him emails requesting updates. That whole thing just imploded and died. Poosh.

Yeah, it does seem that now it's a free for all. Do whatever you want. Love it or hate it, but 3D Realms was far more consistent about this back in the day. They made it clear. No mods for other games, period. They C&D'd everyone and everything of the sort, with the exception of maybe one or two maps that fell through the cracks. (Like Red Light District for Quake.)




View PostPhredreeke, on 14 September 2021 - 04:05 PM, said:

I was told that C&D was fake


Fake as in it could never be accurately traced back to anyone at Gearbox, even though the email address itself looked credible.


View PostKralex, on 13 September 2021 - 08:09 PM, said:

Here are the Dave 3D assets if you are interested, like Mr Flibble said there is very little done.


Thanks for this! Wow that brings back some memories. I remember seeing the Dave 3D videos on YT back in the day and then it all disappeared suddenly.




Yeah there's a big difference between a standalone work and a retail product. Hell, there were retail products for Quake that, while effectively being completely new games, still required Quake to run (IE: Malice.)



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User is offline   Sangman 

#15

View PostMrFlibble, on 15 September 2021 - 02:11 AM, said:

I has occurred to me that there are probably enough original character sprites (made from scratch that is, and not reimagining monsters from existing games), first person weapons and other props made by sebabdukeboss20 for AA, AMC TC and Demon Throne to quickly throw together a robust prototype of a Build engine game (textures can be always borrowed from Freed∞m and co. and/or OpenGameArt).

And if sebabdukeboss20 agrees to release said sprites under a free license, a libre Build game might be closer to happening than you'd think.


Sebab's sprites are nice but still based on either DNF models or HRP models (which are in turn based on Duke3D designs). I'm not sure to what extent the copyright protection goes there...
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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#16

Both Tea Monster and Sebab have gotten down the proper pipeline to creating authentic looking "Duke style" sprites.

Remember, TM was working on that Halloween themed Duke mod where he had a bunch of really awesome looking 3D models that he was baking down to sprites.

I think it would be very doable to get a complete set of replacement assets for Duke. Far more feasible than doing a next-gen upgrade of Duke3D itself.
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#17

View PostSangman, on 20 September 2021 - 02:54 PM, said:

Sebab's sprites are nice but still based on either DNF models or HRP models (which are in turn based on Duke3D designs). I'm not sure to what extent the copyright protection goes there...

The HRP license has its own clause that it may only be used in Duke projects IIRC. Either way, even imitations of the original content are out of the question for a project like this.
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User is online   Phredreeke 

#18

Said clause for reference

Quote

3. Any likenesses, characters, sounds, phrases or references specific to
Duke Nukem, 3D Realms Entertainment, or Apogee Software Ltd. appear in this
Work courtesy of 3D Realms Entertainment and are the exclusive property of
3D Realms Entertainment, and are provided only to be used with a legally
acquired copy of Duke Nukem 3D. You may not alter, transform, build upon or
adapt any portion of this Work specifically related to or derived from the
Duke Nukem intellectual property, including likenesses, characters, sounds,
phrases or references for any purpose other than use with a legally acquired
copy of Duke Nukem 3D.

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User is online   MrFlibble 

#19

View PostSangman, on 20 September 2021 - 02:54 PM, said:

Sebab's sprites are nice but still based on either DNF models or HRP models (which are in turn based on Duke3D designs). I'm not sure to what extent the copyright protection goes there...

I specifically said "original character sprites (made from scratch that is, and not reimagining monsters from existing games)", and I think that some of the characters found in at least the AMC TC and Demon Throne are completely original and unrelated to either Duke or any other 90s 2D FPS game.

For example, I believe EDF soldiers or the Satyr Gunner from WGR2/DT are not based on any particular character from any game, and neither are these guys, apparently.

Even the friendly mage from WGR2 that was originally represented by the Daggerfall sprite was reimagined by sebabdukeboss20 in such a way that you'd hardly notice the semblance, unless you'd specifically look for it, and I doubt Bethesda would take issue with someone making a character _inspired_ by a sprite from a long freeware game of theirs.

View PostOpenMaw, on 20 September 2021 - 02:42 AM, said:

Love it or hate it, but 3D Realms was far more consistent about this back in the day. They made it clear. No mods for other games, period. They C&D'd everyone and everything of the sort, with the exception of maybe one or two maps that fell through the cracks. (Like Red Light District for Quake.)

And yet now it is pretty clear how harmful this policy turned out to be to Duke, without any obvious benefit to any party involved.
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User is online   Phredreeke 

#20

Would the goal be making a replacement GRP file without any maps to run existing usermaps w/o Duke3D.grp? If that's the case it's a lot of work just to save people five bucks buying Duke on Zoom.

Or would it also be to reimagine the first three or four episodes to go along with it?
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User is online   MrFlibble 

#21

It is my understanding that the idea is of a completely new game on the Build/EDuke32 engine, or at least a prototype of such a game, not a libre data replacement for Duke.

Personally I think taking the Freed∞m route for Duke3D would be both impractical due to much greater complexity when compared to Doom, and likely demeaning to the source material when originality is taken into account. It would be either of subpar quality when compared to the original, or feel forced (e.g. if you wanted to make up enemies to fill in the exact roles of Duke3D monsters but completely different), or if well done and of high quality, it'd probably feel more like a TC for Duke3D than a stand-alone game anyway. I'm not even talking about copyright implications.

On the other hand, there's no reason not to try out something completely new and original within the Build framework, provided that people are willing to spend time, effort and talent on that of course. And if it works out well I guess it wouldn't be too far-fetched to write a converter for existing Duke maps to work with that theoretical new game. As I said, there should be enough free material to work with already thanks to sebabdukeboss20's sprites as well as resources from other libre projects, Open Game Art etc.
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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#22

View PostMrFlibble, on 23 September 2021 - 08:24 AM, said:

And yet now it is pretty clear how harmful this policy turned out to be to Duke, without any obvious benefit to any party involved.


In retrospect, yes. At the time as much as it was frustrating I did understand on some level. Though, also in retrospect I would say given how much 3D Realms was struggling to find the DNF identity for such a long period, having to compete with your own community would be somewhat demoralizing.



As to the intent of FreeDuke. I don't see it as being impractical to do what FreeDoom, but for BUILD. I would say the primary goal would be to create a framework of functional stand alone examples of what the engine can do. That would be example maps of BUILD effects, a series of levels with enemies, replacements for all fo the weapons, pick ups, etc.

Like I don't think it would be we're gonna have a brunette dude in a blue shirt and red pants named SMUKE PUKEM who fights Crocmen and Army Ants. I think that would come off as cheap and silly. I think something more generic would be in order.

Keep in mind, i'm not trying to lay down any rules. I specifically started this thread as more of a discussion of the idea. I guess it IS up for debate whether something like this would even be worthwhile for Duke given the smallness of the community.



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User is online   MrFlibble 

#23

View PostOpenMaw, on 24 September 2021 - 07:02 AM, said:

In retrospect, yes. At the time as much as it was frustrating I did understand on some level. Though, also in retrospect I would say given how much 3D Realms was struggling to find the DNF identity for such a long period, having to compete with your own community would be somewhat demoralizing.

Yes, it also occurred to me that the protracted DNF development must have played a major part in the crackdowns, for fear that a let's say Quake/Quake II TC would draw the attention away. The fact alone that a fan-made true 3D Duke game came out before the official 3DR one would have been a major blow I suppose.

View PostOpenMaw, on 24 September 2021 - 07:02 AM, said:

As to the intent of FreeDuke. I don't see it as being impractical to do what FreeDoom, but for BUILD. I would say the primary goal would be to create a framework of functional stand alone examples of what the engine can do. That would be example maps of BUILD effects, a series of levels with enemies, replacements for all fo the weapons, pick ups, etc.

Freed∞m itself is an odd beast. For one, the email where Carmack essentially gave approval of the project has some very vague wording in it. He says that making a new game on the engine is okay as long as it is not an imitation of Doom, but it is not clear if a libre IWAD for Doom source ports is not a stretch of the definition. Support for custom PWADs seems like a somewhat grey area, especially since one of the arguments for it -- that legally obtaining a copy of the original Doom games was not easy (this used to be either on the FD site or in the Chocolate Doom wiki IIRC) -- is no longer in effect. But then again, there are several FOSS clones of popular games that include complete support for maps from the originals they're imitating without being on the same engine or using any proprietary data like sprites etc.

Considering past experience with these things, it would probably be prudent to steer as far away from any kind of imitation as possible, including the use of the title "FreeDuke". But since the CON files are included with the Duke3D source release and I assume are supposed to constitute part of the GPL'd source code, putting together a straightforward replacement GRP, at least for test purposes, appears harmless, unless of course it'd be advertised as a direct replacement for the original game (which I'm guessing it won't be).

I remember playing Shadow Warrior for the first time -- I had not been aware of the game's existence, and only the 3DR logo shown at startup was a vague indicator of its relation to Duke. Yet the feeling that this was a modified Duke3D was pretty hard to shrug off at first. I think it's a good example of the possible direction a new project may go while not being a straightforward imitation or data replacement. Take the essential gameplay parts and give them a new context.

BTW, is there anything within the AMC TC's lore to get started with? In spite of my enthusiasm about it I barely played this gem yet, but I vaguely remember that one of the characters originally came from a Duke TC (Oblivion?). How about doing this the other way round and give one of the AMC TC characters their own solo game? That could provide a starter set of resources to play with and a bit of lore to create a context for possible level themes.
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User is online   Phredreeke 

#24

View PostMrFlibble, on 24 September 2021 - 08:03 AM, said:

I remember playing Shadow Warrior for the first time -- I had not been aware of the game's existence, and only the 3DR logo shown at startup was a vague indicator of its relation to Duke. Yet the feeling that this was a modified Duke3D was pretty hard to shrug off at first. I think it's a good example of the possible direction a new project may go while not being a straightforward imitation or data replacement. Take the essential gameplay parts and give them a new context.


It's not though. SW was developed in parallel with Duke. Redneck Rampage is running on a modified Duke3D though
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User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#25

View PostMrFlibble, on 24 September 2021 - 08:03 AM, said:

BTW, is there anything within the AMC TC's lore to get started with? In spite of my enthusiasm about it I barely played this gem yet, but I vaguely remember that one of the characters originally came from a Duke TC (Oblivion?). How about doing this the other way round and give one of the AMC TC characters their own solo game? That could provide a starter set of resources to play with and a bit of lore to create a context for possible level themes.


Several of the characters come from other mods (on top of everyone being self-inserts), though not all of them had their own game

I actually love this idea, but I'm biased because I'm just a sucker for giving solo starring roles to character that weren't as such before.


Regarding this discussion, and Freedoom itself, while I recognize the goal of making a starter kit for mod compatibility (even moreso with the context of doom not being super available at the project's inception), I think one of the things that holds freedoom back is the fact that it is literally just Doom with a new coat of paint. It's a fancy coat of paint, but the gameplay is so identical that it's...kinda dull. And I mean I love me some classic Doom, but here we have all these new textures and sprites and it's just asset replacement and that's it. Nothing more. Even Chex Quest changed up the enemy behaviors a little bit. It was something.


What I think Freedoom should have done is also come with a dehacked file or something. While aiming for 100% mod compability is cute, I think the gameplay should be tweaked, but done so in a way that still won't break things. An excellent example of a "balanced for other mapsets" is D4V. Some behaviors might not be perfect 100% of the time, 90% is still pretty good.

Especially since, no matter how many stock art assets you replace, any mod that uses custom edits of the original textures will suddenly be jarring because of the distance in style. So if that's acceptable, then I don't see why changing up the enemy and weapon behavior to still fit their original roles but achieve it in a new way.

Any Freeduke project should do the same. Not just to avoid legal wrath, but to improve the overall experience.


The fact that we aren't in that same era before companies learned the value of rereleasing their old stuff, mean the original goal of the project doesn't have a reason too exist anymore. But what can save it is to change the game. Not only does it make it feel less derivative, but it would also mean those who already own the original game have more a reason to keep playing since now they have two ways to play the same level.
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User is online   MrFlibble 

#26

View PostPhredreeke, on 24 September 2021 - 08:50 AM, said:

It's not though. SW was developed in parallel with Duke. Redneck Rampage is running on a modified Duke3D though

Uh, I simply meant to say that back in 2002 or thereabouts, when playing SW for the first time I had a feeling that it was modified Duke3D. But thanks for pointing it out, in case someone here is not familiar with the actual SW development history.
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