[Ninety-Six]

The loop metadata wasn't carried over during the conversion then, I assume?

[Ninety-Six]

There's something odd about Medieval Cress. I've played that map through to completion several times already, and half the time it says there's a health upgrade I missed. I search literally the entire map and can't find it anywhere.

But if I just wasn't aware of an apple's location that would be one thing. But the other half the time I find them all and I don't really do anything different? So I've found them all several times, and yet when I go back after missing one I can't seem to find the missing one anywhere. I could also swear that once or twice I finished the level with ten health upgrades found.

I can't help but wonder if one of the upgrades dropped by the phase demons bugs out or something? Life if they're gibbed instead of leaving a corpse they don't drop the upgrade? Or something? I've had trouble testing that theory, myself...

[Danukem]

Ninety-Six, on 28 December 2020 - 10:31 AM, said:

I can't help but wonder if one of the upgrades dropped by the phase demons bugs out or something? Life if they're gibbed instead of leaving a corpse they don't drop the upgrade? Or something? I've had trouble testing that theory, myself...

All the code that does special stuff when an enemy dies is part of the same routine, and there's a LOT of monsters in the game that drop specific items or activate specific tags when they die. If it didn't work when they were jibbed, players would be getting softlocked constantly and completing even a single level would be a miracle.

We did have issues with some counters being thrown off when the player would leave the map to visit town, then return. I'd be interested to know whether the max amount of apples in the level is always shown to be the same number, or whether it is increased by one on the runs when you can't find the last one.

[Ninety-Six]

I'll keep that in mind on my next grind. I'll watch the stat screen closely. For reference my last run ended with an 8/9.

I also do go to Blacksand before leaving the level. That's literally the last thing I do in every level of the game: clear it out, grab the stuff, visit merkata for the missing gold, head off to blacksand, return and end the level. So if such a problem exists it is more than possible I'm experiencing it. On the next run I'll make a save before doing that and will end the level early just to see what the stat screen says.

[Danukem]

When I load it as a user map and then input "setvar testnodes 1" in the console to immediately finish the level, it shows I have 0/9 apples. So, there are 9 apples detected when the map starts. The code that tallies them is counting apples in the map, R sprites that spawn them, in addition to any other sprite that is set to spawn them. Maybe sometimes an apple spawned by a monster is going somewhere inaccessible, like inside a wall?

[Ninety-Six]

That can happen? I know I tried testing that theory during the first completion run, but you're kind of literally flying blind out there. Though I didn't check the interior walls that much... Still, now knowing it's possible it's as good an explanation as any.

Of course without a live counter it will remain very hard to keep track of if an apple went missing. The level stats only show the normal time, kills (which is inaccurate anyway) and secrets. I know where their static spawns are; it's the ones that drop from the enemies that are a lot harder to keep track of. Phase demons are among the first to die in any given fight I'm in so if I pick one up or if it vanishes into a wall I won't usually notice amidst the chaos of the battle (though I make a point to walk over their death site). Especially since I'm not sure which exact ones drop them and which don't (in Medieval Cress I mean. I know apples come from different enemies in later levels).


Though why it seems to happen in Med Cress more than the other levels I've practiced and grinded, I have no idea. I wouldn't know if it was constructed in a way that is different to the rest that would make it more susceptible to dropping apples into walls. I do always kill the phasers with the spirit goggles on so maybe that has something to do with it...? I really don't know.

[William Gee]

My only thoughts is that they maybe fell into the water or under a sprite or into a wall. I pretty much always miss apples in that level. Maybe I will test it out.

[Danukem]

Well, I tried to prevent those kinds of things. The sprite has the no-water-sector flag on it, and the actor is coded to give itself to you at any distance if its sectnum is -1 and also if it's on lava. But it's hard to close all the loopholes. Having sprites to be picked up that are spawned by monsters is not entirely safe unless the monsters themselves are very tightly controlled (like stayput enemies on a child sector of a larger sector that the player can fully explore). EDIT: To clarify that flag prevents the sprite from teleporting to the under water area, but the sprite can still be in the under water sector if it starts there.

[William Gee]

I found all 9 apples, but I missed 3 enemies and 5 gold that I couldn't find. not even going to blacksand.

One of the cacodemons dropped a apple that fell into water and I had to dive under to find it. maybe you missed that one?

[Ninety-Six]

Danukem, on 29 December 2020 - 01:20 AM, said:

EDIT: To clarify that flag prevents the sprite from teleporting to the under water area, but the sprite can still be in the under water sector if it starts there.

That reminds me of something. Maybe it works differently here in Demon throne, but in Duke 3D, going all the way back to the Dos days, there was a bug where sometimes objects would go into water but then not actually move to the underwater section. They would remain under the viewable floor and could be picked up if you walked over where they were, or if it was a pipebomb, could still blow up in your face.

I have no idea if that's what's happening here, nor why MedCress seems to be the one it affects (it has a lot of water I guess? ...But so does Open Season). Just kinda spitballing once again since what you said reminded me of that old glitch.

[William Gee]

Open Season doesn't have underwater sections though right?

[Ninety-Six]

William Gee, on 29 December 2020 - 01:37 AM, said:

I found all 9 apples, but I missed 3 enemies and 5 gold that I couldn't find. not even going to blacksand.

One of the cacodemons dropped a apple that fell into water and I had to dive under to find it. maybe you missed that one?

The kill counter is completely broken, so most of the time there will always be missing enemies and gold.

As for it dropping underwater, when I see I'm missing an apple and reload a save, going under the lake is usually one of the first places I look. It's never been there. The only ones I find underwater are the ones that were always there.

The frustrating part is that I have finished with all 9 on several occasions. But I don't really do anything different; just sometimes I end up short and can't find the last one anywhere. I've never been able to get it consistently one or the other.

[Danukem]

Ninety-Six, on 29 December 2020 - 01:43 AM, said:

I have no idea if that's what's happening here, nor why MedCress seems to be the one it affects (it has a lot of water I guess? ...But so does Open Season). Just kinda spitballing once again since what you said reminded me of that old glitch.

That's not exactly a glitch. What's happening is that sprites become "half-submerged" when on top of a water sector (cstator 128) when they just sit on the water and don't fall in. If a sprite is short enough to begin with, it becomes completely invisible when rendered that way.

There is the NOWATERDIP sprite flag to prevent that, though, and yes apples already use that flag. So in theory, they should remain visible on the water.

EDIT: I fixed several issues with the kill counter and thought we had it pretty accurate by release. Disappointed to hear that it's "completely broken."

[Ninety-Six]

William Gee, on 29 December 2020 - 01:46 AM, said:

Open Season doesn't have underwater sections though right?

That is true. But if my theory was right you'd think it would happen way more often.

...Then again, maybe not. There aren't that many fights over the waterways in that one. That and sprites tend to be fully drawn in that level even when they're in the water so it's harder to miss stuff.

Though by the same token, most of the phase demons in Medcress are deeper within the castle. The only one out front doesn't spawn until you cross the bridge, and I usually take him out before he goes anywhere.

There is the one or two in the side building that opens that very door however. The ones over the lava grate. I have wondered if maybe an apple didn't drop through the grate or something (and it is a different lava texture than what's normally seen so maybe it would be exempt from the recall code?), but thanks to the grate and the palette I was never able to definitively say whether there was one down there or not.

[Ninety-Six]

Danukem, on 29 December 2020 - 01:53 AM, said:

EDIT: I fixed several issues with the kill counter and thought we had it pretty accurate by release. Disappointed to hear that it's "completely broken."

If it would help I could try recording some gameplay videos with the level stats as maximum size to try and spot discrepancies. For what it's worth, some levels work fine (consistently, even) but then others don't. I'm willing to bet it's probably an enemy type (or several) confusing the kill counter code. It was always jank in the Duke 3D code to be completely fair.

[William Gee]

Ninety-Six, on 29 December 2020 - 01:55 AM, said:

Though by the same token, most of the phase demons in Medcress are deeper within the castle. The only one out front doesn't spawn until you cross the bridge, and I usually take him out before he goes anywhere.

There are 2 by the bridge, one as you walk over it and another spawns after the powerpod puzzle is complete.

[Ninety-Six]

It could be that one then. I'll have to look.

[Ninety-Six]

Okay something is definitely wrong with that second phase demon; the one that comes in with the cyberdemon.



He died here, on the edge of the pier. As evidenced by the bloodstain, his corpse was not hiding it, nor is it under the water. It's completely gone, and sure enough, I'm once again missing an apple.


The problem might not be specific to this phase demon; it could be this pier. Or maybe it's dying right on an edge. I'm not sure but for this playthrough I definitely "found" my missing apple.

[Ninety-Six]

I think something similar just happened in Temple Cress. Somehow six entire keys have gone missing (or X multi-keys?) I know enemies spawn them during the big horde fight before entering the Hell temple, and given the above and that I can't find them anywhere in that relatively small level, I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption.

[Ninety-Six]

No more air dashing?

[William Gee]

Air Dashing wasn't removed - Of cause you only get air dashing when you get to the end boss levels.

[Danukem]

William Gee, on 21 January 2021 - 02:46 PM, said:

Air Dashing wasn't removed - Of cause you only get air dashing when you get to the end boss levels.

If you have reached those end levels on a previous game and are using the same .cfg file, then when you start a new game and purchase regular dash, you get airdash as well.

[William Gee]

Correct.
I was assuming Nighty Six updated and hadn't reached the end yet.
Unless he has and airdash is now broken?

[Ninety-Six]

No, I haven't gotten that far yet. I did update and replayed, and didn't notice I couldn't dash in the air until I died a dozen times trying to enter episode 2 (I had until that point basically just flew on over there).

At least it's still in the game, even if as an unlockable. I can't say I don't understand why it was changed like that (given the way it completely broke maps like Open Season), but at least it's still in there. I had much fun using it to move around. As a fan of Duke's already excellent movement the dashing in the air and on the ground felt like a wonderful addition and was just plain fun to use.


Something to look forward to, I suppose. I should be starting on episode 3 soon enough.

[Danukem]

Nothing has been intentionally changed regarding airdash since the initial release of Demon Throne. It was always intended to work the way that I described it in my previous post.

[Ninety-Six]

I've started episode 3, and boy is it completely kicking my ass. But it's the good kind of asskicking, the kind where I die because I screwed up and not the game (Most of the time. Had a weird moment where using the portal to head down to the floor of the aqueducts (or whatever they are) somehow instantly sent me back through the portal, to the top, with momentum, and then to fall to my death). I approve of moving the formerly new (isn't that an oxymoron) WGR1 levels and placing them into episode 3. They always did kind of stick out in terms of difficulty, especially cyberdemon city.

That said the makeover for Getting Back to Nature (now called The Kingdom) is intense. I keep dying on the second stage of the aqueduct battle, after freeing the accursed. Though part of it is due to confusion. I'm not entirely sure where to go from there. There's a key and an upside down pad past the doors on the platform below, but I don't see anywhere to go besides a secret. I also don't see a safe way back down to the floor to engage the cyberdemons and luglord without taking a fair chunk of fall damage.

On that note, I've opened the red chests and a pillar was lowered. A pillar with nothing on it. And looking up it at least doesn't seem like it grants access to any real location when upside down either. I'm not entirely sure what that accomplished.


Granted I could be missing something obvious. The gravity mechanic is doing a surprising number on my ability to comprehend where I am. I don't know why as it seems pretty straightforward, but my brain just seems to glitch out on it for whatever reason. Not a complaint, mind; clearly something in my head is just not working properly.

[Ninety-Six]

I've beaten episode 3. Damn is it hard. I was able to knock out the rest of the levels in a day, but I spent like a week on The Kingdom. That battle is no joke.

It's kind of funny. I could swear that Cyberdemon City is easier than it was in Siege Breaker? It's been a while but I remember dying so much more. And yet GBTN/The Kingdom is now significantly harder. Funny how that works.

In any case, the grind for episode 3 begins. And judging by how the Guardian looks, I'm going to need a 100% episode 3 to even stand a chance.

[Ninety-Six]

Alright so here's a question I've wondered since Siege Breaker. Why I'm only asking it now, I have no idea.

It's about the headshotter. I'm having a tough time determining where my shot is going while using the secondary fire. Yeah it's iron sights but I've kinda always had this problem whenever iron sights are in a game. I'm not knocking it, and even without 100% knowing where I'm aiming I'm decent with it.

Still, I'd prefer some confirmation is all. So basically: Where exactly on the iron sights should I be looking? Should the tip of the iron sight be just very slightly below the head? Should just the tip (as in topmost pixel) cover the head? Or is the shot lined up for even further down the sight (meaning I'd be aiming higher)?


I'm still somehow making even really long distance shots with it, but I'm doing it more by instinct. I would like to improve my skills with it but I need to have a stronger conscious idea of what I'm aiming for.


Again I'm not criticizing. I quite enjoy the weapon (always have) and getting those long-distance shots against any enemy always feels great to pull off. This is more of a me problem since as I said, I tend to have this issue in any game that uses iron sights. Demon Throne is just the one that I really want to get super good at. And for the record, I've never held a real gun in my life so I can't use any experience there to tell me where to aim.

[Danukem]

I don't remember exactly how it lines up but you can always check by loading up zoo map, picking a line on a wall and then shooting to see where the bullet decals spawn.

[Ninety-Six]

Danukem, on 24 February 2021 - 12:49 PM, said:

I don't remember exactly how it lines up but you can always check by loading up zoo map, picking a line on a wall and then shooting to see where the bullet decals spawn.

That was an obvious idea and I didn't think of it for some reason.


For anyone else who wants to know: the slug goes just slightly above the sight (so if you can still see the head of your target that's about good enough).