[OpenMaw]

gemeaux333, on 16 December 2019 - 10:43 PM, said:

The users review are way more nuanced than the critics actually, especially if you consider over the time

When it comes to the gameplay, it is either made to make fun of a component (COD and Halo) or to praise it (HL2), but its not always in this order :
-Power armors is for pussies
-I hate Valve puzzles

But I assume its because of Georges Broussards who wanted to stay at the level on concurence, but more like saying "Imitation is the most sincere flattery's form" than trying something original...

The gameplay is neither making fun of, nor supporting. The "power armor is for pussies" moment is not gameplay. I'm talking about utilizing the two weapon limit, the regenerating Health, the physics puzzles, the dropship delivery of reinforcements to the pseudo arena, the affixed turret sections. On and on. They're all bits and pieces that were collected from Call of Duty, Halo, and Half-Life 2.

[Jimmy]

Alien World Order fails to impress because the maps are not congruent with the original three episodes, or even The Birth. They're weird go-betweens of modern Duke mapping conventionalism and 3DR style mapping. They'd be fine maps if just released as user-maps by the original authors, but they do not feel like Duke Nukem 3D at all.

Also Pascal intended to make more Roch maps but because of the Taivo/Dogville debacle he said he would never publicly release a map again. I agree with Methy that Pascal was a bitchy little girl about the whole thing (my words.) As an aside, I think Fernando Márquez' New York Rebellion series and possibly other maps by him I may be forgetting are more befitting of a "Duke Nukem 3D sequel" than Alien World Order. They just don't fit. And thats okay, it doesn't make them bad maps. But it does make it a bad successor, in my opinion. This is a recurring problem when thinking of World Tour; Inevitability at some point a fan has created something not only equivalent, but better.

Was No Rest for the Wicked "nothing special" for Doom 2? Maybe. But it fit, and it had heart. I've played it multiple times and believe it's earned itself in the pantheon. World Tour just feels off and only Gearbox can be to blame.

[Outtagum]

He should've taken the power armor.

[NNC]

Roch series aged terribly imho, the maps are ugly and used unnecessary amount of details. Gameplay was also terrible with no thought put into monster placement, flow is all about key-door-button-door-key-door-end tedium.

WT's problem is its lack of coherent vision. This was an issue in Birth, but much more in AWO.

I still think Golden Carnage is the perfect Duke level, it kept the original aesthetics, but also improved it by adding more Duke-style details (not Roch style mishmash). Mirage Barrage has minor flaws, but it's also a wonderful map and a journey of its own.

I wish Allen worked more on High Times. It had some ugly glitz early on, and usermappy stuff like the recycled babe sprites, but the concept of Amsterdam was great, and Allen's genius can be seen in many parts of the map.

Yeah, the problem was the lack of episode feel, and Levelord has never been a great designer honestly. Abyss, Sewer etc turned out to be good maps by accident, and mostly because Broussard watched the work over Levelord's shoulders, not because the natural talent of the guy.

His maps aged poorly just as much as Roch maps in WT honestly.

[Jimmy]

The Amsterdam level is trash. It's loaded with gimmicks that are done poorly. The way "smoking the bong" is done is really shit considering they supplied new CONs, the Cheshire Cat shit is really stupid and does NOT fit the Duke Nukem aesthetic, and the call back to Lunatic Fringe is again stupid, because it's a real world location. Even most of the textures look like they're from Tek War or something. It's really strange to begin the episode with the map that feels most like a user-map.

[Radar]

I still love Roch to this day. The only one I don't really care for is Roch 1. I agree there are better maps out there, but Roch has a legacy as being one of the earliest high quality map series. They are the standard all maps are compared to. Duke map enthusiasts always ask "is this better than Roch?" You can't seem to escape a Roch reference (I wasn't even the first who brought them up in this thread).

[NNC]

All of those are valid points, but at least it looks like a relatable place, and captured the Amsterdam look pretty well despite the out of place graphics and other half baked stuff.

Red Ruckus looks like a random Birth level like Shop n Bag or Pigsty, except with random russian tiles thrown in. We haven't seen the Kremlin, the seven sisters or the soviet metro, just a random map. Good one, but not something that can't be made by the community.

Tour de Nukem is like Sewer mixed with an MRCK map, except with french tiles and ugly skybox thrown in. Not bad, but again, we have seen better stuff during the last two decades. Both Moscow and Paris are interchangable in this episode, and that's terribly lazy. Random skyboxes won't replace great leveldesign.

Bloody Hell is just a terrible map. While the London Tower looks nice, the rest are just some unrelated pieces glued into a torso which wasn't polished neither gameplay wise, nor aesthetic wise.

Prima Arena's uncut version is okayish for multiplayer, but it's way too simple overall, and again, Rome deserved something better.

High Times is a better map than these by the simple fact it's unquestionably Amsterdam. Blum just took some effort to model his levels after real locations. Amsterdam is just a glitzy place and don't go well with the classic Duke look.

[NNC]

Btw. if Levelord released his 4 levels as Shrapnel City 2 and without the bullshit extra art, world narrative and stuff, just vanilla textures and freeware, it could have been a nice, coherent work.

[gemeaux333]

I have noticed that DNF doesn't have a proper identity (a bit like Commander Keen 6), but again Georges Broussard is to blame...!

[gemeaux333]

Some Leslie Nielsen humor :

[ck3D]

I find it really interesting to witness the evolution of the feedback Roch maps get over time, because I feel like for a while just criticizing those levels was on some kind of taboo shit. I too find that core gameplay was never their forte, with Pascal's style generally tending to flashy looks first, then articulating the layout around those, as others have mentioned. That doesn't make those maps examples of terrible gameplay per se, in my opinion (he did consider layouts e.g.. Roch 7, and most of the later levels did have a central theme of sorts), but they do feel like going through organized museums as opposed to sheer traditional Duke action with clever layout connexions and locations that are primarily designed as areas/arenas vs. trying very hard to resemble a real world location. (also a tendency I've personally had for years and years, and have been working on diluting)

Credit is due to Pascal for bringing what turned out to be alternative ways of using and thinking the engine quite early on; same type of stylistic contribution as Bob Averill or Billy Boy had, that eventually influenced generations of mappers because that's how the human mind works, new experiences will always provide inspiration to later be infused into further creation. Now, a problem with him was the hype around his releases probably got to his head; his later maps essentially became a collection of the novelty elements everybody kept praising throughout the years (at the expense of some of the core mechanics of the game) and most importantly, he always looked surrounded by yes men - they all seem to be gone now, but there used to be quite the amount of fan sites praising the maps and their author to really, really ridiculous levels. The guy had obvious talent but as a person, probably wasn't prepared to handle the intensity of the reception of his works at the time and definitely demonstrated a poor grasp on reality upon reacting to the release of Taivo's Dogville.

If I were to pick my top 3 favorite Roch maps today, it would probably just be the first three.

NWO criticism was a good read as well. I feel like the staff definitely tried to catch up on what had been done with Build for Duke for the past decade by checking out a top 10 of the highest-rated (or most viral) user maps for that one. My first impression upon discovering the levels was the same disappointment as expressed by others earlier; it just didn't feel like classic Duke, be it the art, the construction, the layouts, minus the SF level which was the only one to have moments of urban grandness - otherwise a lot of the outdoor areas in the entire episodes and most crucially in the city maps felt very enclosed with very little binding together form and function (whereas the original game excelled at that). A lot of it felt like a guided visit through colorful (or even plain-looking, e.g.. the caves in the Paris level) hallways, when a lot of what makes Duke 3D exciting is the actual exploration and figuring out in which smart ways sections of the levels connect. (could go on for longer, but I'm running out of time for now)

[Radar]

I'm probably reluctant to criticize the Roch maps because I discovered Duke as late as 2007, so I see all the content made before then from a bird's eye view. Very few maps from before that time stick out for me. But I can see why folks who have been around for a lot longer are keen on discarding the taboo of criticizing Roch maps after all these years.

I personally love later Roch maps and would not call them weak on gameplay. Rather, I would give them an A in terms of gameplay, and I'd give some newer maps an A+. Newer mappers like Mickey C, David B, Paul Bolduc, and Undertaker are really revitalizing Duke with the nonlinear style of their maps.

8 years ago, It Lives was released. How do you think the gameplay aspect of that map has aged? I still consider it the greatest map of all time.

[Ninety-Six]

Radar 100 Watts, on 19 December 2019 - 07:26 AM, said:

8 years ago, It Lives was released. How do you think the gameplay aspect of that map has aged? I still consider it the greatest map of all time.

I still go back to play that one frequently. I do think it holds up very well. It finds the right balance between visual detail and gameplay, without sacrificing much of either for the other (and it also features CON-less black magic for some of its setpieces).

It reminds me a lot of Red 5 (which makes sense, as it was cited as an influence), but I would argue that IL has slightly better gameplay in some areas. Plus it has a proper conclusion against that pseudo-boss fight.

In the end It Lives and Poisoned Lands are tied for my favorite individual user maps of all time.

[Tea Monster]

It's not dead, it's sleeping!

[hismasterplan]

A tease from Jon St. John... Here we go again.

[Mike Norvak]

Is the Duke IP dead?
Yes. Close this thread.

[Altered Reality]

hismasterplan, on 27 February 2020 - 04:33 PM, said:

A tease from Jon St. John... Here we go again.

That's probably about Postal 4. Although it would be cool if Jon St. John recorded a second version of the Postal Dude's lines in Duke Nukem's voice, and it was possible to switch at will between the two versions.

[Outtagum]

The image says "royal" (like a king ) and the compass has a radiation symbol.

[OpenMaw]

It means nothing.

Even if it meant something, which it doesn't, nothing's changed. It's Gearbox. They have their own maddening interpretation of Duke that they have not let go of.

[pacman]

I don't know when, I don't know, but what do I know is that the Duke will rise again.

[Jimmy]

Imagine being this delusional.

[NightFright]

Considering how pathetic recent attempts were to make the Duke franchise remotely relevant again, there is nothing anybody can say or do to get me excited about anything Duke-related. As long as the brand rests with Gearbox, all we'll get are guest appearances in other games.

[gemeaux333]

And what about VR ressurecting Duke, it works with Half-Life, so I don't see why it woudn't worl with Duke, there are plenty of possibilities in Duke with VR setup, and not only punching things in aliens balls and faces !

[DisgustedGrunt]

gemeaux333, on 29 February 2020 - 09:51 AM, said:

And what about VR ressurecting Duke, it works with Half-Life, so I don't see why it woudn't worl with Duke, there are plenty of possibilities in Duke with VR setup, and not only punching things in aliens balls and faces !

Gearbox, that's the reason it wouldn't work.

[Radar]

Look at what happened with Doom 2016. Miracles can happen.

[Altered Reality]

Outtagum, on 28 February 2020 - 10:44 AM, said:

The image says "royal" (like a king ) and the compass has a radiation symbol.

I saw that, but I'll consider it a red herring until something disproves it.

gemeaux333, on 29 February 2020 - 09:51 AM, said:

And what about VR ressurecting Duke, it works with Half-Life, so I don't see why it woudn't worl with Duke, there are plenty of possibilities in Duke with VR setup, and not only punching things in aliens balls and faces !

VR is a means, not an end. It only makes games more immersive, not "better": if a game is already compelling on its own, it becomes even more fun in VR because players find themselves immersed in a world they like, doing things they like. But if the game is boring, a VR version of it does not make it better, because players will find themselves immersed in a boring environment, doing things they don't want to do.

[OpenMaw]

Radar 100 Watts, on 29 February 2020 - 10:46 AM, said:

Look at what happened with Doom 2016. Miracles can happen.

id Software was fully committed to Doom. They weren't getting the results they were wanting, shit canned years of work, started over, and pushed into a new direction at high risk. Again, they had commitment, and were willing to take some big risks.

Gearbox doesn't have that. Not with Randy at the top dictating how much they count the beans.That's what has been his arguement for years. "We have to keep the lights on." So all they'll do is play it safe, outsource things as much as possible, and take few risks. IE: Duke Nukem being so huge a risk to them now, they'll never do anything major with the character.

I'm sorry, that's just the way it is.

[Radar]

For sure, I definitely agree with that sentiment, as I've stated in the past. Taking Duke out of Gearbox's hands would be a necessary precursor in order for Duke to have a shot again.

[Ronin]

The only way forward I see would be Gearbox selling off the licence, can't see it happening though especially in these clown world times. AAA game developers would shit themselves trying to bring Duke back because of the pressure and expectation along with the main stream games media just waiting to bury anyone that tries to do anything not ticking enough woke boxes these days. You would need a new young team with balls and just the right level of naivety to pull it off. I see Randy holding on to the IP and doing nothing, even if just to spite the community that I believe he detests or maybe he just feels a moral obligation to keep a new Duke Nukem game from the world... but we all know Randy is not a moral man by any reasonable standard.

[Fox]

Ronin, on 29 February 2020 - 02:30 PM, said:

just to spite the community that I believe he detests

I don't think Randy really care about what some fans have to say. If he did, he would have stopped working on the industry long ago.

It's all about money. And Randy has already made it clear that Duke is not a profitable IP.

Ronin, on 29 February 2020 - 02:30 PM, said:

maybe he just feels a moral obligation to keep a new Duke Nukem game from the world... but we all know Randy is not a moral man by any reasonable standard.

Maybe. Randy has already displayed some SJW inclination. Is he compensating for something?