[Kristian Joensen]

One thing someone could do, although it could be risky, is to create a new franchise and character that are as similar to Duke as you can get within the confines of copyright law. The risk of course being a lawsuit from GBX.

[Danukem]

Commando Nukem, on 03 December 2019 - 09:15 AM, said:

It isn't the same. Duke, when he was good, was such a integral piece of the game. His theme song, his personality, his particular style... You can't just take those things out and have the same experience. If you look at what Duke Nukem 3D might have been without those aspects... It would have been a good, even a great game, but that personality... The PERSONA was a big part of what made him great. Nobody compares. Not Sam, not Wang, no Caleb. You couldn't plug in a pretender and get the same fire.

But what I'm saying is, he could still wear jeans and have the same haircut, wear sunglasses and be voiced by JSJ. He could even say "Groovy" and some other familiar lines because that's a reference to Ash, it's not original to Duke. Give him black hair with gray highlights, give him some new lines with the same attitude, etc. His type of personality is not proprietary. If creators cannot make another character who has the same fire, then they don't have the talent to make a good Duke game either, so honestly their Duke game would have sucked anyway.

[necroslut]

Trooper Dan, on 03 December 2019 - 12:01 PM, said:

But what I'm saying is, he could still wear jeans and have the same haircut, wear sunglasses and be voiced by JSJ. He could even say "Groovy" and some other familiar lines because that's a reference to Ash, it's not original to Duke. Give him black hair with gray highlights, give him some new lines with the same attitude, etc. His type of personality is not proprietary. If creators cannot make another character who has the same fire, then they don't have the talent to make a good Duke game either, so honestly their Duke game would have sucked anyway.

You could do a spiritual sequel to anything, so why don't people do that? Why ever do a sequel or remake then? Most of the time, unless a huge amount of time has passed, it ends up feeling like a poor imitation, even if well made.

[Danukem]

necroslut, on 03 December 2019 - 05:05 PM, said:

You could do a spiritual sequel to anything, so why don't people do that? Why ever do a sequel or remake then?

Do a sequel or remake with the original IP if there is strong commercial demand for it so you can make back your development costs and make a profit. Investing in the IP when there is little demand makes no sense.

The general answer to your questions is that developers should do what makes the most sense depending on the circumstances. For Duke Nukem, there is little commercial demand for the IP and the only people who seem to be interested in making a game do not have the IP.

necroslut, on 03 December 2019 - 05:05 PM, said:

Most of the time, unless a huge amount of time has passed, it ends up feeling like a poor imitation, even if well made.

It can be done well.

Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night anyone?

If it's a poor imitation, then the people making it probably aren't very good at making games. They aren't suddenly going to be good at making games just because they are handed the original IP.

[pacman]

just cryogenize the entire team that did the first 4 episodes and have them work on new expansion packs every 2 or 3 years forever.

[Altered Reality]

Trooper Dan, on 03 December 2019 - 09:11 PM, said:

If it's a poor imitation, then the people making it probably aren't very good at making games. They aren't suddenly going to be good at making games just because they are handed the original IP.

His point was that a spiritual sequel (so, without the original IP) tends to look like a poor imitation even if it's well made, because it lacks the original IP.

[Mark]

World Tour used some original mappers and the duke IP? It wasn't a huge success. I don't have blind faith for that combo to produce greatness.

[NNC]

Mark, on 11 December 2019 - 11:50 AM, said:

World Tour used some original mappers and the duke IP? It wasn't a huge success. I don't have blind faith for that combo to produce greatness.

It could have been awesome, but the terrible port, the bugs, the pricing, the removal of the 3 add-ons infuriated the fans. Also, unlike Sigil, most levels didn't keep the original aesthetics, especially Levelord turned his maps into Roch sequels.

[Ninety-Six]

The Watchtower, on 12 December 2019 - 02:59 AM, said:

It could have been awesome, but the terrible port, the bugs, the pricing, the removal of the 3 add-ons infuriated the fans. Also, unlike Sigil, most levels didn't keep the original aesthetics, especially Levelord turned his maps into Roch sequels.

I think the former stuff is way more responsible for the failure of WT than the latter. Add on top that the currently tarnished reputation of the franchise and that a new port of the game is the kind of thing that only really interests us old school fans, and that's a dead game on launch.

[Radar]

The Watchtower, on 12 December 2019 - 02:59 AM, said:

It could have been awesome, but the terrible port, the bugs, the pricing, the removal of the 3 add-ons infuriated the fans. Also, unlike Sigil, most levels didn't keep the original aesthetics, especially Levelord turned his maps into Roch sequels.

What. If World Tour was even half deserving of being called a "Roch sequel" then I would have fallen in love with it. I think you need to replay Roch.

[Ninety-Six]

Radar 100 Watts, on 12 December 2019 - 06:09 AM, said:

What. If World Tour was even half deserving of being called a "Roch sequel" then I would have fallen in love with it. I think you need to replay Roch.

I dunno. Personally I thought AWO played better than the Roch series (sans Roch Island, which played really well in my opinion).

[Radar]

At least Roch is a series of complete maps.

[Ninety-Six]

Radar 100 Watts, on 12 December 2019 - 06:36 AM, said:

At least Roch is a series of complete maps.

...Roch was unfinished I don't understand what you mean.

[Radar]

It is only missing a final boss map. Each individual map is a complete work. The WT maps were literally left unfinished (see: Bloody Hell blue key card).

Keep in mind that Roch 2, 3, and 4 were created in a timespan of just 1 year. If each of those maps were half the size, that's already a 6 level episode of much higher quality than WT.

[Ninety-Six]

Radar 100 Watts, on 12 December 2019 - 06:54 AM, said:

It is only missing a final boss map.

Did Pascal ever say that he intended to end the series at Roch 9? I know he was planning on at least a second secret map...

Spoiler

Is it at all possible you're thinking of Red? I know that Merlijn said that there was supposed to be one in the Red episode pack that was never made...

[Radar]

That's not my point. Who knows what he would have done. All I'm saying is that calling WT maps "Roch sequels" or even saying WT plays better than Roch is a grave misjudgment of the quality of both episodes.

Spoiler

Btw, the Oostrum bros have said that the heli at the beginning of Clear the Coast can be interpreted as a sequel to Red 5.

[Ninety-Six]

Radar 100 Watts, on 12 December 2019 - 07:12 AM, said:

All I'm saying is that calling WT maps "Roch sequels" or even saying WT plays better than Roch is a grave misjudgment of the quality of both episodes.

I will have to strongly disagree. I will concede that some aspects were unfinished; I had forgotten about some of that. Though none of it is game-breaking in the slightest. It's clear that Blum and Levelord were forced to turn in incomplete maps as yet another sign of the port's rushed development cycle. But as far as what is there? In terms of enemy placement, ammo/health balance, overall general progression? Yes I would say I enjoyed playing them more than Roch.

I played Roch again just last year. I have a pretty fresh memory of it (and before the obvious question: yes. I play AWO about as often as I replay Duke 3D itself. So it's not like I have a vague memory of that, either). While I won't say the level design is bad, I will say it is a bit rougher in some patches, and can be a bit of a slog at certain points. Even compared to some of its contemporaries, the gameplay is a bit weaker (at least in my opinion). Again, it's not bad. I have played plenty of levels that play awfully, and Roch is definitely not among them. Still, the gameplay is not anything to really write home about. It was clear that Pascal was more focused on the appearance than how it played (though he gave the gameplay more thought than certain other levels that fall under the "appearance first" mentality). And I will grant that Roch looks a lot better than anything in AWO, point lights or not. But I still believe that AWO plays much better than Roch, and that is ultimately what I care about more.

[Radar]

Ninety-Six, on 12 December 2019 - 07:25 AM, said:

I will have to strongly disagree. I will concede that some aspects were unfinished; I had forgotten about some of that. Though none of it is game-breaking in the slightest. It's clear that Blum and Levelord were forced to turn in incomplete maps as yet another sign of the port's rushed development cycle. But as far as what is there? In terms of enemy placement, ammo/health balance, overall general progression? Yes I would say I enjoyed playing them more than Roch.

You know there's a reason I mentioned that multiple Roch maps were released in the same year. There were mappers in this community's history who could put out quality stuff in crunch time. There is no excuse for the fails in WT.

Ninety-Six, on 12 December 2019 - 07:25 AM, said:

I played Roch again just last year. I have a pretty fresh memory of it (and before the obvious question: yes. I play AWO about as often as I replay Duke 3D itself. So it's not like I have a vague memory of that, either). While I won't say the level design is bad, I will say it is a bit rougher in some patches, and can be a bit of a slog at certain points. Even compared to some of its contemporaries, the gameplay is a bit weaker (at least in my opinion). Again, it's not bad. I have played plenty of levels that play awfully, and Roch is definitely not among them. Still, the gameplay is not anything to really write home about. It was clear that Pascal was more focused on the appearance than how it played (though he gave the gameplay more thought than certain other levels that fall under the "appearance first" mentality). And I will grant that Roch looks a lot better than anything in AWO, point lights or not. But I still believe that AWO plays much better than Roch, and that is ultimately what I care about more.

Defend WT and our corporate Gearbox overlords if you must. Nobody in the mod scene would release sh*t like this and expect to be taken seriously. I suspect you wouldn't be playing it consistently either if it didn't show up in the episode selection menu.

[Ninety-Six]

Radar 100 Watts, on 12 December 2019 - 08:00 AM, said:

You know there's a reason I mentioned that multiple Roch maps were released in the same year. There were mappers in this community's history who could put out quality stuff in crunch time. There is no excuse for the fails in WT.

Considering how minor the errors were, and that most of them showed up near the end of the episode, I will have to once again disagree. Especially since, again, they didn't really impact anything.

Radar 100 Watts, on 12 December 2019 - 08:00 AM, said:

Defend WT and our corporate Gearbox overlords if you must. Nobody in the mod scene would release sh*t like this and expect to be taken seriously. I suspect you wouldn't be playing it consistently either if it didn't show up in the episode selection menu.

i have no idea why you are getting so angry

I'm not defending Gearbox, and I haven't exactly spared criticism for WT on the whole. I am only defending the levels alone, and more accurately Blum and Levelord. I even account the errors as a part of the overall package's less-than-stellar quality.

The levels were the best part of World Tour, however. And there are plenty of enjoyable elements within the levels that make them fun experiences. They made four levels each, probably in less time than Pascal had for his three. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe you're wrong. We can't know for sure, but I choose to give the benefit of the doubt because I did like the levels. I do see a lot of worth in them, and had a genuinely enjoyable time (for instance High Times is probably one of my top favorite official Duke maps).


You disagree, that's fine. But I fail to understand why it's difficult for you to grasp that I do like them. I don't know why you have to assume I only play them because they're in the selection menu (for the record I play on eDuke. I have to go out of my way to play AWO). That I can't actually enjoy them. Enjoy them more than a famous usermap series even. Do I like them as much as the original four episodes? No. Are there usermaps series I do like more than AWO? Yes, as a matter of fact the Red series is my favorite group of usermaps ever created, and I like them even more than some levels from the original 4 eps.


But the truth remains. I like AWO more than Roch. I felt and still feel that the gameplay in Roch is much weaker than the gameplay in AWO, "completeness" of the maps or not. They aren't gamebreaking or even really inconvenient. Just small oddities that do nothing.

And to bring this back to the very original point, I do indeed think that Levelord and Blum could do things at least on par with the original Duke 3D, and that their recent combo is not completely reflective of their actual talent, considering how rushed the entire product was. I simply think they've earned the benefit of the doubt.


cow a have man don't

[Radar]

lol man I'm not mad.

If you really like AWO then that's alright. I just hope you understand the fundamental difference in the logic you are applying.

-The Roch maps are good, perhaps a little weak on gameplay. They happen to have been created in a short amount of time, but they are judged by the same standard as any other map, including maps that may have taken years to complete.

-WT is a heavily flawed but charming episode. It happens to have been created in a short amount of time, so let's treat it with kid's gloves out of respect for the original mappers and wonder of what "could have been" if it was given a proper development cycle.


I personally have no regard for half-baked garbage, and I consider AWO trash. Gearbox should have gone the whole way or just not have bothered. But fanbois will always find a way to suck Randy's dick (not angry or an insult towards you, just being flamboyant). Frankly, I think Randy could do the world a favor never touching Duke again and sticking with Borderlands.

[Ninety-Six]

Radar 100 Watts, on 12 December 2019 - 09:42 AM, said:

-The Roch maps are good, perhaps a little weak on gameplay. They happen to have been created in a short amount of time, but they are judged by the same standard as any other map, including maps that may have taken years to complete.

-WT is a heavily flawed but charming episode. It happens to have been created in a short amount of time, so let's treat it with kid's gloves out of respect for the original mappers and wonder of what "could have been" if it was given a proper development cycle.

Except the problem isn't really within the maps themselves? They have minor, again, minor errors that have zero effect on gameplay. I'm not treating them with "kid gloves." I hold it to the same standard I do everything else, and in the end, I have more fun playing AWO than I do playing Roch. That is with or without seeing past the errors.

And I have no doubt that if WT had actually gone through quality testing (which it very obviously didn't given the state it was released in), those tiny errors would have been cleaned up with a little polish. My point being those errors don't affect anything. And to once again bring it back to the original issue, it's kind of ridiculous to hold those tiny errors against the mappers themselves which is my bigger point. They all didn't go through the same kind of process that fan-mappers or the originals did for quality control. But even without that, we have complete maps that are playable and fun with no glaring issues. All we have are a couple of empty secrets and a useless keycard, that easily would have been cleaned up with proper playtesting.


EDIT: I feel like we're on two different planets shouting at each other over what color the dirt is. We're obviously approaching this from two different angles.


I'm not sure where's you're coming from, but clearly we have two vastly different standards of quality. For you these issues are apparently things that bring down the whole quality of the map. For me, because it doesn't affect how any of the levels play, I pretty much ignore them since they're irrelevant.


So let me try putting it like this: When it comes to what I like and don't like in terms of levels, the first and most important question is "am I having fun." And when I compare Roch and AWO, I have more fun with the latter than the former. That's my primary metric of quality. I don't know what yours is but that is mine.

[Radar]

Well to be honest, even if those issues were fixed I still wouldn't have liked WT. There are other glaring issues that are central to the lousy theme, like the obvious fact that NO LEVELS CONNECT.

I think Duke would have been better off not being molested by Gearbox. This masterpiece of a game is now contaminated with a canonical episode known as Alien World Order. I refuse to accept it as such.

[OpenMaw]

Honestly, the best part of it was the music. Lee Jackson hadn't lost his touch.

There are some pretty bad failures within AWO. The boss is especially glaring. Granted, other than the Queen and Battlelord, Duke's bosses are underwhelming if you know how to strafe, but for fucks sake that AWO boss is a joke.

[MusicallyInspired]

The WT episode is great in all areas except the new enemies. I have spoken.

[DisgustedGrunt]

MusicallyInspired, on 13 December 2019 - 07:14 AM, said:

The WT episode is great in all areas except the new enemies. I have spoken.

This is The Way.

[Player Lin]

Radar 100 Watts, on 12 December 2019 - 10:38 AM, said:

There are other glaring issues that are central to the lousy theme, like the obvious fact that NO LEVELS CONNECT.

I think it's a problem, since original Duke levels had some connections in each levels in a episode, but the levels in AWO episode just looks like Duke warps to every (famous?) locations for no reasons, without any of explains or something, just feel so randomly...maybe they try that because of "World Tour" theme but...come on, it could be better.

And yes, I think the levels in AWO episode all are the good enough even though had some flaws, but you have to looks them separately, not the whole episode because that made them looks so randomly/inconsistent about the theme.

Nah...it just proved Gearbox Shovelware failed to polish anything about Duke...

[DNSKILL5]

I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of a new Duke Nukem game entirely, but if it's from Gearbox I would definitely believe it would not please true Duke fans, and would only please newbies or only like 2-3 people. It would bring the unwanted kind of growth to this community, and it would become much like what the Doom community has become since Doom 2016... a locker room of feces. They will do everything in their power to make Duke annoying, unfunny, uncool, and it will do nothing but piss us ALL off. The best thing for this community to do is hope Gearbox licenses the IP to a company that knows Duke's character and won't turn him into a coma inducing maniac.

[gemeaux333]

The Duke Nukem Forever recipy have pleased a lot of peoples (more than we think) but the Leslie Nielsen (rest in peace) humor doesn't seem to fit the tastes of traditionnal Duke fans... but who tell you DN3D wouldn't have been like DNF if the same technical means did exist back then ?

[OpenMaw]

gemeaux333, on 16 December 2019 - 12:59 PM, said:

The Duke Nukem Forever recipy have pleased a lot of peoples (more than we think) but the Leslie Nielsen (rest in peace) humor doesn't seem to fit the tastes of traditionnal Duke fans... but who tell you DN3D wouldn't have been like DNF if the same technical means did exist back then ?

No, it really didn't. The game had terrible reviews, both user reviews and critic reviews alike. It sold, marginally.

Tone and gameplay are not the same thing. They could have dont retarded Naked Gun-esque humor in Duke 3D at the time. All they had to do was a lot more sight gags and have annoying characters popping up all over, and make Duke more o fan asshole.


Duke Nukem Forever's gameplay systems aren't inherently bad unto themselves, but the mixture of the Call of Duty, Halo, and Half-Life 2 systems was a bad recipe. It was just bad. Overly linear, scripted levels, limited weapons, excessive hand holding, too many turret sections, etc... It's terrible.


Duke 3D succeeded at doing what it did because everything was geared towards the player being the controlling factor, not the game. The only time you lose control of Duke is for the split second at the end of a level, and during end episode cutscenes. The rest of the time, during gameplay, you control Duke. The interactivity of the world lives with the combat going on, and is not cordoned off into it's own areas like it is in Duke Forever. The story of Duke3D never gets in the way of the game of Duke Nukem 3D.

[gemeaux333]

The users review are way more nuanced than the critics actually, especially if you consider over the time

When it comes to the gameplay, it is either made to make fun of a component (COD and Halo) or to praise it (HL2), but its not always in this order :
-Power armors is for pussies
-I hate Valve puzzles

But I assume its because of Georges Broussards who wanted to stay at the level on concurence, but more like saying "Imitation is the most sincere flattery's form" than trying something original...