[Hank]

I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here.

OccludeOlga'sOcculus wrote numerous times:



This tell me, case closed.

As for the Bible, well, if you try to read in it's context, as a road to God, it is well written. If you use it for anything else, history shows a bloody trail of those who did just that

[Danukem]

Radar 100 Watts, on 22 January 2020 - 05:31 PM, said:

I'm not sure if that's what Wieder is saying, but assuming it is, if the Bible is imperfect in conveying God's message then it should be discarded entirely.

I don't follow you. "imperfect" isn't the same as "completely wrong" or even "mostly wrong". It could be 99% right and still be imperfect. Why would you think any complex printed work translated/transcribed or otherwise processed by fallible human beings would be completely free from error?

Also, are you familiar with the paradox of the preface? https://en.wikipedia...Preface_paradox

Also also, if you are prepared to throw out your copies of the bible upon learning they may contain errors, would you do the same for your other cherished sources of information, such as your eyeballs?

[Radar]

Trooper Dan, on 22 January 2020 - 06:19 PM, said:

I don't follow you. "imperfect" isn't the same as "completely wrong" or even "mostly wrong". It could be 99% right and still be imperfect. Why would you think any complex printed work translated/transcribed or otherwise processed by fallible human beings would be completely free from error?

It depends what you mean by "wrong". When I say the Bible is perfect, I mean that the message of the Bible is perfect and conveys God's plan without error (infallibility). That doesn't mean there isn't room for error when it comes to issues of translation. Also, there is obviously some debate as to which manuscript is the superior version. Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls, Masoretic, etc? IMO It doesn't really matter because these manuscripts only deviate in grammar and minor word choice, so the overall message is not affected.

Trooper Dan, on 22 January 2020 - 06:19 PM, said:

Also, are you familiar with the paradox of the preface? https://en.wikipedia...Preface_paradox

Not until now. Again, I have no quarrel with the idea than the NKJV Bible has some inconsistencies with a respected manuscript. But I'm pretty sure after hundreds of years of editing we have the message about 99% down pat. Wieder is saying that our english Bible cannot be trusted at all. Somehow, they mistranslated hundreds of pages and God actually hates the Jews. I don't know how that works since Jesus was Jewish (even in Wieder's sense of the word, since Jesus was literally a descendant of Judah, lol).

Trooper Dan, on 22 January 2020 - 06:19 PM, said:

Also also, if you are prepared to throw out your copies of the bible upon learning they may contain errors, would you do the same for your other cherished sources of information, such as your eyeballs?

Well, Jesus said to cut off both your hands and eyeballs if they cause you to sin...

[Forge]

from what I'm gleaning - there's a difference of opinion on what the term "Israel" is referring to.

Jesus showed up to first teach the unbelieving lost sheep (children) of Israel. The jewish people who lost their way. Not unto the samaritans, nor the gentiles.
Matthew 10:6
Matthew 15:24

later are the comments that disciples will scatter and teach all nations
Matthew 26:13
Matthew 28:19-20

[Jimmy]

Radar 100 Watts, on 22 January 2020 - 02:15 PM, said:

How do you know what God thinks based on no trustworthy record of His writings?

>implying you don't have a direct uplink with God and these books are just interfaces for him to interact with you esoterically, the acts of reading sacred texts, praying, and meditation are free will acts allowing God to do things in your life and communicate truth

Radar 100 Watts, on 22 January 2020 - 02:15 PM, said:

Also, you might learn more if you attended a Bible study at an actual church.

Holy fucking kek. Actually going to a church? What are you, a pedophile?

Radar 100 Watts, on 22 January 2020 - 08:17 PM, said:

It depends what you mean by "wrong". When I say the Bible is perfect, I mean that the message of the Bible is perfect and conveys God's plan without error (infallibility). That doesn't mean there isn't room for error when it comes to issues of translation. Also, there is obviously some debate as to which manuscript is the superior version. Septuagint, Dead Sea Scrolls, Masoretic, etc? IMO It doesn't really matter because these manuscripts only deviate in grammar and minor word choice, so the overall message is not affected.

Not until now. Again, I have no quarrel with the idea than the NKJV Bible has some inconsistencies with a respected manuscript. But I'm pretty sure after hundreds of years of editing we have the message about 99% down pat. Wieder is saying that our english Bible cannot be trusted at all. Somehow, they mistranslated hundreds of pages and God actually hates the Jews. I don't know how that works since Jesus was Jewish (even in Wieder's sense of the word, since Jesus was literally a descendant of Judah, lol).

This is Boomer Christianity. The authorities of man mean nothing. Stop relying on Earthly authorities and consult with the High Authority instead.

[Radar]

HorseDongSub69, on 25 January 2020 - 07:02 PM, said:

>implying you don't have a direct uplink with God and these books are just interfaces for him to interact with you esoterically, the acts of reading sacred texts, praying, and meditation are free will acts allowing God to do things in your life and communicate truth

Sure but this also romanticizes the concept of elevating the God one has concocted in their imagination instead of the God that is verified to exist through scripture.

HorseDongSub69, on 25 January 2020 - 07:02 PM, said:

Holy fucking kek. Actually going to a church? What are you, a pedophile?

I'm a brass band director. Same thing to you?

HorseDongSub69, on 25 January 2020 - 07:02 PM, said:

This is Boomer Christianity. The authorities of man mean nothing. Stop relying on Earthly authorities and consult with the High Authority instead.

No, it's First Century Christianity. Are you calling scripture an earthly authority?

[Jimmy]

Radar 100 Watts, on 25 January 2020 - 07:18 PM, said:

Sure but this also romanticizes the concept of elevating the God one has concocted in their imagination instead of the God that is verified to exist through scripture.

How poignant he uses a marriage to explain this. My woman was the last step to God for myself (and I was for her.)

It's all about letting God upload his plan directly into your brain. I find that the more synchronicities begin to pile up, the more God is trying to tell me something or lead me in some direction.

Radar 100 Watts, on 25 January 2020 - 07:18 PM, said:

I'm a brass band director. Same thing to you?

Do you guys play ska? This is a very important question.

Radar 100 Watts, on 25 January 2020 - 07:18 PM, said:

No, it's First Century Christianity. Are you calling scripture an earthly authority?

Scripture is a 3rd dimensional passageway to other dimensions. Trusting any 3rd dimension thing in totality is a trap of Satan.

The scripture is merely a tool to God. Once you have come to God you do not explicitly need the scripture any further, but it surely helps and you'd be a fool to discard it. But without discernment you could be easily led astray. The scripture means nothing to someone who doesn't know God. Just go argue with an Atheist. BuT tHe BibLe SaYs sLaVeRy Is OkAy!!1

[Forge]

Galatians 5:13 (ESV)

For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

[Forge]

[Radar]

HorseDongSub69, on 25 January 2020 - 07:41 PM, said:

How poignant he uses a marriage to explain this. My woman was the last step to God for myself (and I was for her.)

It's all about letting God upload his plan directly into your brain. I find that the more synchronicities begin to pile up, the more God is trying to tell me something or lead me in some direction.

That's all fine and I have no problem with the pedophile priest video. My point was that it is extremely easy for humans to invent the God they want to serve instead of following the narrow path God has already laid down for us.

HorseDongSub69, on 25 January 2020 - 07:41 PM, said:

Do you guys play ska? This is a very important question.

No, but it's a combination of Romanian folk + concert band style with rock-style drums at its heart. A friend of mine sent me a recording last month from behind the drum cage at practice. I'm playing drums and I also wrote the arrangement.

HorseDongSub69, on 25 January 2020 - 07:41 PM, said:

Scripture is a 3rd dimensional passageway to other dimensions. Trusting any 3rd dimension thing in totality is a trap of Satan.

The scripture is merely a tool to God. Once you have come to God you do not explicitly need the scripture any further, but it surely helps and you'd be a fool to discard it. But without discernment you could be easily led astray. The scripture means nothing to someone who doesn't know God. Just go argue with an Atheist. BuT tHe BibLe SaYs sLaVeRy Is OkAy!!1

Scripture serves as the backbone of our ability to understand who God is. I'm not saying we can't communicate with God, but it is limited as a result of the Fall of Man. Scripture is intended to be the catalyst for discernment.

[Tea Monster]

All this talk about De Jeebus in the GOP thread. Tut tut, ain't none of you follow the commandment of the separation of church and state?

[Hank]

Tea Monster, on 28 January 2020 - 06:24 AM, said:

All this talk about De Jeebus in the GOP thread. Tut tut, ain't none of you follow the commandment of the separation of church and state?

Separation of Religion and State was supposed to assure Freedom of Religion, not suppression of Religion.

[Radar]

Tea Monster, on 28 January 2020 - 06:24 AM, said:

All this talk about De Jeebus in the GOP thread. Tut tut, ain't none of you follow the commandment of the separation of church and state?

Yes. Do any leftists follow the commandment of "Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion?"

[Danukem]

Tea Monster, on 28 January 2020 - 06:24 AM, said:

All this talk about De Jeebus in the GOP thread. Tut tut, ain't none of you follow the commandment of the separation of church and state?

They were having a squabble and now you've united them.

[Tea Monster]

LOL.

I honestly had no idea what they were talking about after my comment. Especially the cartoon. It was the Republican treasurer Salmon Chase who caved to God botherers and had "In God we trust" first added to US currency. I'm honestly not sure what message is supposed to be conveyed there.

Religion has no place in government because you DO want freedom of religion. You practice your religion in your home/church/mosque/synagogue, not in the legislature. That's the whole point of it. It's freedom of religion - ALL religion, not just fundamental Christians. Once you start making laws that favour one religion, you are oppressing another. The founding fathers had seen what happened in England and in the early colonies (cheerfully murdering each other over scripture interpretations) and decided the state should wisely have no part in religion. I take it that went over their heads at 30,000 feet? Of course it did!

[Hank]

Cartoon
Once you need to explain it, it loses its charm
Top, one who believes in god, and sees government as it's meant to be.
Bottom, one who believes in and worships the power of the state.

Money
Yes, in God We Trust is offensive in some circles. Why? The US adapted this motto to identify against Atheist Communism, it has little to do with religion per se.

Faith vs Organized Religion
Yes, laws should not be based on organized religious doctrine, but you can't expect elected officials to keep their faith 'at home'.

[Radar]

Tea Monster, on 31 January 2020 - 07:57 AM, said:

LOL.

I honestly had no idea what they were talking about after my comment. Especially the cartoon. It was the Republican treasurer Salmon Chase who caved to God botherers and had "In God we trust" first added to US currency. I'm honestly not sure what message is supposed to be conveyed there.

I really don't care about this phrase on our currency either way, but keep in mind that Christianity is not explicitly referenced. "In God we trust" can encompass all religions (and even unbitter agnostics/deists).

Tea Monster, on 31 January 2020 - 07:57 AM, said:

Religion has no place in government because you DO want freedom of religion. You practice your religion in your home/church/mosque/synagogue, not in the legislature. That's the whole point of it. It's freedom of religion - ALL religion, not just fundamental Christians. Once you start making laws that favour one religion, you are oppressing another. The founding fathers had seen what happened in England and in the early colonies (cheerfully murdering each other over scripture interpretations) and decided the state should wisely have no part in religion. I take it that went over their heads at 30,000 feet? Of course it did!

This paragraph is a case study in leftist projection. We're simply discussing our differences in theology, and you assume we want to enact some laws to reinforce our worldview. No TM, only leftists do that. Lawmaking is no where on our minds, only liberty.

[Forge]

Tea Monster, on 31 January 2020 - 07:57 AM, said:

England and in the early colonies (cheerfully murdering each other over scripture interpretations)

fucking lol @ the re-writing of history to suit the narrative

politics caused that

King Henry VIII married to Catherine of Aragon
Catherine of Aragon is the aunt of King Charles V of Spain
King Charles V of Spain was the Holy Roman Emperor
Holy Roman Emperor ruled over and controlled Pope Clement VII

no way was the pope going to grant Henry a divorce from the aunt of the holy roman emperor (his ruler)
this caused a break in the church of england from the catholic church which resulted in 'religious' wars in europe.
All over politics.

the point of separation of church and state is valid, but your simplification of cause-and-effect misrepresents the events that led to it

[Kyanos]

The seperation of Church and state should apply to the satanic cult too though.

[Mark]

I'm sure the separation of Church and state is temporary. They'll both date other people for a while then eventually get back together for the sake of the kids.

The last few pages have been above my pay grade to join in meaningfully so I must resort to posts like this. Darn you intellectuals.

[Tea Monster]

Forge, on 31 January 2020 - 09:45 AM, said:

fucking lol @ the re-writing of history to suit the narrative

politics caused that

King Henry VIII married to Catherine of Aragon
Catherine of Aragon is the aunt of King Charles V of Spain
King Charles V of Spain was the Holy Roman Emperor
Holy Roman Emperor ruled over and controlled Pope Clement VII

no way was the pope going to grant Henry a divorce from the aunt of the holy roman emperor (his ruler)
this caused a break in the church of england from the catholic church which resulted in 'religious' wars in europe.
All over politics.

the point of separation of church and state is valid, but your simplification of cause-and-effect misrepresents the events that led to it

This is all true, but when Protestants and Catholics kill each other, they do it in the name of God.
I've got to admire Henry in one way. "You won't grant me a divorce? Fuck you, I'll start my own Church, with blackjack and hookers."

Radar: I'm sure that there was a form of "leftist projection" back in 1776. But I highly doubt it was anything like what you are thinking about. I don't think that they went through the street shouting "But, Jefferson's telegrams!"

Photonic: But, of course!

[Forge]

Tea Monster, on 31 January 2020 - 03:10 PM, said:

This is all true, but when Protestants and Catholics kill each other, they do it in the name of God.

Politics started the fight, not religion.
'Religion' was simply the club used by the governing bodies to bash each other over the head.

[Tea Monster]

That's the really dangerous thing about religion and state. You aren't arguing a point of law or any other rational discussion. You are talking to some narcissistic asshole who is going to insist that what he wants is "The Word of God".

[Tea Monster]

And although politics is the heart of all organised religion, the masses don't see it like that, which is the entire problem and why it is so dangerous.

[Radar]

TM, who exactly are you arguing with? Is there someone here that is against the separation of church and state?

[Forge]

I think he's trying to convince himself that there's a difference between government and religion.

It's easy.

One is a bunch of man made arbitrary rules used by elitists to mind-control sheeple. The other is divine guidance from a superior being.

[Danukem]

Forge, on 02 February 2020 - 09:04 PM, said:

I think he's trying to convince himself that there's a difference between government and religion.

It's easy.

One is a bunch of man made arbitrary rules used by elitists to mind-control sheeple. The other is divine guidance from a superior being.

You mean the religion that you follow is divine guidance from a superior being. Religions that conflict with yours are more like government, right?

EDIT: By the way, my question is an implicit criticism of your definition of religion, not of your particular religious beliefs. My point is, (at least) some religions do not provide actual divine guidance.

[Forge]

Trooper Dan, on 03 February 2020 - 11:09 AM, said:

some religions do not provide actual divine guidance.

then those aren't religions, they're "better living for dummies" philosophies

[Danukem]

Forge, on 03 February 2020 - 11:57 AM, said:

then those aren't religions, they're "better living for dummies" philosophies

Is Mormonism a religion?

[Forge]

Trooper Dan, on 03 February 2020 - 12:06 PM, said:

Is Mormonism a religion?

they believe that through the power of magic underwear they can become god