[Radar]

Prince isn't wrong to sue. He's a jerk and a hypocrite, but he's not wrong.

[Zaxx]

Why is he a jerk and a hypocrite? What did I miss?

[cybdmn]

Zaxx, on 30 September 2019 - 08:16 AM, said:

Why is he a jerk and a hypocrite? What did I miss?

Because everybody who brings in copyright and lawyer stuff to games is a jerk and an hypocrite cunt. At least if you ask some random internet expert.

[Radar]

I wonder if he had the same deal with id software that he had with 3DR. If he also owns the rights to Doom music, then he is collecting royalties on copyrighted music.

[HulkNukem]

I've read that Prince made a dollar for every copy of Duke3D sold?
If so, that is a crazy good deal on his half.

[Zaxx]

Spitfire, on 30 September 2019 - 08:31 AM, said:

I wonder if he had the same deal with id software that he had with 3DR. If he also owns the rights to Doom music, then he is collecting royalties on copyrighted music.

Eh, I never viewed the Doom soundtrack as simply being a collection of plagiarized metal songs, I think it has its unique flavor to it. Sure, Prince lifted a lot of melodies from metal songs but through the "magic" of MIDI and a lot of added elements he made them his own.

I have never listened to E1M1 and thought "oh man, this is No Remorse from Metallica" while doing so and I think that's because Doom's soundtrack has its own atmosphere. On the other hand something like this is clearly plagiarism because the guy not only took the melodies from Doom 2016 but also the whole atmosphere so to speak:

[Radar]

HulkNukem, on 30 September 2019 - 09:39 AM, said:

I've read that Prince made a dollar for every copy of Duke3D sold?
If so, that is a crazy good deal on his half.

That's at least $3.5 million. Comparatively, the Beatles only made 25 cents per album sold ($1 split 4 ways). Crazy good deal.

[Steve 64]

I feel sorry for bobby he should get pay in full.

[NNC]

Legally he is right, but morally this is just as bad as Iron Maiden's lawsuit on Ion Fury. And he should know better the state of this franchise. He is just twisting the knife in the wounds.

[Phredreeke]

or he's playing some 4D chess hoping this forces Gearbox to sell

[Radar]

This makes me wonder, if Bobby really did get $1 per copy sold, then does that make him the best paid developer on the team? Makes me wonder what deal Ken got on the game. Hope he got a % of sales.

[Sledgehammer]

Phredreeke, on 30 September 2019 - 12:01 PM, said:

or he's playing some 4D chess hoping this forces Gearbox to sell

[Radar]

Certainly a Trump tier move. Randy's days are numbered.

[Sledgehammer]

By the way, since he's suing Valve as well, what about Sony and Microsoft?

[Jimmy]

None of Prince's Doom tracks are plagiarism and if you think so you're a fucking retard.

[Radar]

So I need to post just one comparison to prove it isn't "none"?






Frankly I'm not a Doom insider, so when you guys says it's not true I'm not sure if you're legitimately in denial, or just pretending because you're sick of everyone pointing it out.


FYI Led Zeppelin is one of my favorite bands, and I've always admitted that their first albums are heavily plagiarized. I get flak for that on music forums too.

[Zaxx]

Spitfire, on 30 September 2019 - 06:22 PM, said:

Frankly I'm not a Doom insider, so when you guys says it's not true I'm not sure if you're legitimately in denial, or just pretending because you're sick of everyone pointing it out.

The thing is that the accusations come from "surface level knowledge": sure, it can seem like plagiarism but if you look a bit deeper it's fairly clear that it's not for a few reasons:

- It's not obvious what a lot of the tracks are based on, there are different arguments out there and none of them seem to be absolutely correct.
- Doom's been around for quite a while now and nobody has come forward with a plagiarism case so far.
- As I've already said thanks to MIDI Doom sounds very different than traditional metal music.
- Bobby Prince is a musician but also a lawyer... do you think he doesn't know what plagiarism is and how to avoid it? None of the melodies sound exactly like the stuff they were based on.

And anyway I think that it's a pretentious thing to say that Prince stole the music of Doom simply because back in the day everyone loved the shit out of the soundtrack and nobody cared. It emulated popular metal, that was awesome and everybody just loved the similarity to famous metal songs.

[Morpheus Kitami]

Okay, Prince may very well be a hypocrite, but a jerk and/or immoral? That's going too far. This isn't like some world-famous band screwing over some small company just because they made a shitty mobile game. If Gearbox really did screw him out of money, then it isn't immoral to sue them. Just like if Pantera or Slayer or Alice in Chains decides tomorrow they want to sue Prince, they aren't being immoral or jerks. If tomorrow Alice in Chains sues American McGee for whatever reason, then they're jerks and the kind of people that spit on old ladies.

Spitfire, on 30 September 2019 - 10:07 AM, said:

That's at least $3.5 million. Comparatively, the Beatles only made 25 cents per album sold ($1 split 4 ways). Crazy good deal.

Jesus, that's better than most programming jobs. Probably even better than most jobs in the gaming industry, period.

[Tea Monster]

I don't know what Randy is being evasive about. A buck a copy sold? This is 'World Tour' we are talking about. Give the man a couple of bottles of Jack Daniels and problem solved!

[NightFright]

I doubt WT sold that well. Actually Prince's lawsuit is a really smart move. If successful, he'll get a lot more out of this than through royalties.

[AlektorophobiA]

I hope the outcome of this ends up being Prince's tracks being removed from World Tour, kinda like what happened to the 6th-gen GTA games on Steam (which sucked in that particular case), so people have even less of a reason to buy Randy Nukem 3D.

[Radar]

Zaxx, on 30 September 2019 - 08:19 PM, said:

The thing is that the accusations come from "surface level knowledge": sure, it can seem like plagiarism but if you look a bit deeper it's fairly clear that it's not for a few reasons:

I only need insider information to know what the consensus is among the Doom community. I can still make an educated judgment with just surface level knowledge.

Zaxx, on 30 September 2019 - 08:19 PM, said:

- It's not obvious what a lot of the tracks are based on, there are different arguments out there and none of them seem to be absolutely correct.

I don't think most of the soundtrack is plagiarized. Only a few tracks are, but the whole soundtrack is definitely inspired by popular metal songs. Of course, I don't believe derivative work is plagiarism, that would be silly. 

Zaxx, on 30 September 2019 - 08:19 PM, said:

- Doom's been around for quite a while now and nobody has come forward with a plagiarism case so far.

So? Led Zeppelin got away with ripping off Stairway To Heaven for 45 years before Spirit finally decided to sue. And just because Spirit lost in court doesn't change the fact that Jimmy Page openly admitted to lifting the intro.

P.S. JIMMY PAGE IS A PEDOPHILE. Sorry, just need to get that out, since saying that will get you banned on some guitar forums I know.

Zaxx, on 30 September 2019 - 08:19 PM, said:

- As I've already said thanks to MIDI Doom sounds very different than traditional metal music.

So? IMO In order to constitute music plagiarism, 3 details need to be identical: chord progression, melody, and rhythm. A few tunes in the Doom soundtrack nail all 3 of these aspects.

I know it's a dream, but I wish lawmakers with a musical background would write these laws. Right now, the history of music plagiarism is all over the place. Some of the best cases have lost, and some of the worst cases ever like the recent Katy Perry case somehow pull through.

Zaxx, on 30 September 2019 - 08:19 PM, said:

- Bobby Prince is a musician but also a lawyer... do you think he doesn't know what plagiarism is and how to avoid it? None of the melodies sound exactly like the stuff they were based on.

Bobby is purely a music hobbyist and got lucky pursing it professionally. He never really evolved beyond the MIDI days. It's very common for unestablished musicians to copy other artist's material before writing entirely original work.

Zaxx, on 30 September 2019 - 08:19 PM, said:

And anyway I think that it's a pretentious thing to say that Prince stole the music of Doom simply because back in the day everyone loved the shit out of the soundtrack and nobody cared. It emulated popular metal, that was awesome and everybody just loved the similarity to famous metal songs.

These two sentences are literally contradictory.

Morpheus Kitami, on 30 September 2019 - 08:25 PM, said:

Okay, Prince may very well be a hypocrite, but a jerk and/or immoral? That's going too far. This isn't like some world-famous band screwing over some small company just because they made a shitty mobile game. If Gearbox really did screw him out of money, then it isn't immoral to sue them. Just like if Pantera or Slayer or Alice in Chains decides tomorrow they want to sue Prince, they aren't being immoral or jerks. If tomorrow Alice in Chains sues American McGee for whatever reason, then they're jerks and the kind of people that spit on old ladies.

I didn't say he was immoral. I said he was a jerk and a hypocrite. He's a jerk on principle of being a hypocrite.

Morpheus Kitami, on 30 September 2019 - 08:25 PM, said:

Jesus, that's better than most programming jobs. Probably even better than most jobs in the gaming industry, period.

Yes, seems almost too good to be true. I wouldn't believe this one unless someone can provide a single fact to back that up.

[Jimmy]

Radar you sound like one of those dudes who would be like "But John Fogerty did plagiarize himself!"

[Radar]

Sueing original writers over songs they don't own anymore is a real dick move. It's like Michael Jackson sueing Paul McCartney for playing Beatles songs.

[Morpheus Kitami]

Spitfire, on 01 October 2019 - 05:17 AM, said:

I didn't say he was immoral. I said he was a jerk and a hypocrite. He's a jerk on principle of being a hypocrite.

I was just covering everyone in that. That said, I feel like there's more to someone being a jerk than what he's done here. Suing over lost royalties doesn't seem like a jerk move to me even if he did rip-off a lot of other people in Doom. If he were suing ZeniMax over lost royalties, then I'd say yes, he is a jerk.

[Sledgehammer]

Since he's not suing Sony and MS he's definitely a hypocrite (or possibly also a coward).

[Zaxx]

OR maybe this whole thing is only about the PC version. You don't know what's in the original agreement.

[NightFright]

I guess they'll really end up remapping Lee's tracks to any levels with Prince music and remove everything else. It's easy, fast and another downgrade for the entire edition. Not that Lee's tracks are bad by any means, but each track had been carefully selected to fit the mood of the level before. You can break a lot by choosing the wrong music. But hey, it would be an update for WT again, after quite a long time...

[Zaxx]

Spitfire, on 01 October 2019 - 05:17 AM, said:

I can still make an educated judgment with just surface level knowledge.

You can't though because later down the line you say this:

Quote

So? IMO In order to constitute music plagiarism, 3 details need to be identical: chord progression, melody, and rhythm. A few tunes in the Doom soundtrack nail all 3 of these aspects.

And that's false. Identical means just that: it has to be IDENTICAL and none of the tracks in Doom fall into that category. Even at the parts that are very similar to other songs there is always a difference in chords / melody.

[Fox]

I'm suspicious of your Internet lawyership.