[Zaxx]

I wasn't talking in a general sense but how it should be in the case of Doom to make the plagiarism argument valid. The thing is that you have tracks that sound very different from their "sources" so plagiarism would only stand if the the two were identical when viewed on a sheet.

The opposite of this situation would be what happened with that Robin Thicke song a few years ago: that one was ruled as plagiarism by the court because even though it was different on paper it had the same vibe and partially the same instruments used as the original song.

The lesson though is that it's really fucking subjective overall because very similar stuff can co-exist independently from each other so you can't just go out and say that "oh, this sounds very similar to that other song so pay x amount of money to that other guy". That wouldn't be realistic especially when something breaks into the zeitgeist, affects everyone and then similar songs come out. The people who make those hit songs usually don't even bother because of that (+ also because they don't care, they already made all the money).

[Zaxx]

At the end though I feel this whole plagiarism debate is just a shitty attempt at discrediting the guy who's right in this case simply because it hurts that it's Duke. I should feel sorry for Randy and Duke now because GBX failed to pay for a license? That's what killed the Duke franchise? Fuck no, shitty sequels and shoddy remasters have that effect and it's just really sad that a franchise can fall so far from grace that its fans have to worry about some pocket money that the shitty publisher failed to pay.

[Sledgehammer]

Zaxx, on 02 October 2019 - 12:00 AM, said:

OR maybe this whole thing is only about the PC version.

I doubt he was paid for Sony and MS versions, but not for Steam version, that would be quite weird, in fact I doubt Randy had any kinds of agreement with Prince. Otherwise, there is no difference between Steam, PSN or Xbox digital stores that are still selling the game, likely without Prince approval. Hell, among those three, Valve seems to be getting sued much often which I think is the reason why he decided to went after them and not the rest (something which I'd like to see him doing though). Or were console versions published by someone else and that someone actually handled the situation properly? Prince never mentioned specific versions either for some reason, most likely because this is not just about PC version. Though I'd say it's quite useless to sue distributors anyway, and I doubt he would be taken seriously by court just because he went after Valve alone. Valve themselves probably will ignore him.

If he didn't know about console versions though, I hope people inform him and he decide to sue Sony with MS. They all deserve it.

Zaxx, on 02 October 2019 - 12:00 AM, said:

You don't know what's in the original agreement.

Well yeah, nobody really knows anything about the situation, we all are mostly speculating there, but it's quite irrelevant, unless you want make a disclaimer I suppose.

[Zaxx]

Sledgehammer, on 02 October 2019 - 03:11 AM, said:

I doubt he was paid for Sony and MS versions, but not for Steam version, that would be quite weird, in fact I doubt Randy had any kinds of agreement with Prince. Otherwise, there is no difference between Steam, PSN or Xbox digital stores that are still selling the game, likely without Prince approval.

Sure but if you read the complaint (and I assume you did because you're talking about it and that would be pretty weird to do without you know, reading it) it specifically says that Steam "knowingly distributed infringing copies" of World Tour and that's why they are in the complaint. The important part is "knowingly" meaning that Prince contacted them, shared the information he had and Valve didn't give a shit about it. If he didn't notify MS and Sony then there's no reason to include them and considering that Valve didn't give a shit it's likely that he simply didn't bother (and well, Bobby Prince is around 75-80 years old these days, fuck knows if he even knows about the console versions existing). Overall it's pretty negligable that Valve's in there honestly so even the angle you're getting at here is very confusing to me.

What matters to me when looking at this shit is the time it took for Prince to do anything about it really. The game's been out for almost three years at this point but Prince was already in talks with Randy since 2016 so just imagine all the bullshit this guy had to deal with to get to the point where his only option was a lawsuit. Now there is not much information available of Bobby Prince these days but what we know is that he has or in the last couple of years had some serious health problems, he received chemo and all that jazz so things seemed pretty grim for him. What I assume from this is that Randy and co. were buying time because they thought that the guy will just die eventually and the problem will just disappear.

So you know, fuck Randy.

[Sledgehammer]

Yes, I did, hence comes my "if he didn't know" part as well, it can be anything (we don't even know how competent he is as a lawyer). The angle I'm getting at is that someone should let him know about consoles releases.
https://www.microsof...vot:overviewtab
https://store.playst...AGODA0000000000

[Radar]

Zaxx, on 02 October 2019 - 12:12 AM, said:

You can't though because later down the line you say this:


And that's false. Identical means just that: it has to be IDENTICAL and none of the tracks in Doom fall into that category. Even at the parts that are very similar to other songs there is always a difference in chords / melody.

When you say they aren't identical, I think you are conflating sound bytes with music theory. The songs I posted clearly have portions that are identical in all 3 of those aspects. The verse and chorus are clearly the same song. Identical chords, melody, and rhythm still leave plenty of room for added noise. Just because it's MIDI and it sounds different doesn't mean these aspects can't match.

FYI that standard that I mentioned is simply my own criteria for determining music plagiarism. But I do wish that this was the standard in American law. Sure, it would be a difficult case to prove. It's supposed to be difficult. This is after all the country of "beyond a reasonable doubt". I know you're not a lawyer, so FYI the songs don't actually have to be identical, you just have to convince a jury that they are.

[Radar]

Zaxx, on 02 October 2019 - 12:53 AM, said:

I wasn't talking in a general sense but how it should be in the case of Doom to make the plagiarism argument valid. The thing is that you have tracks that sound very different from their "sources" so plagiarism would only stand if the the two were identical when viewed on a sheet.

The opposite of this situation would be what happened with that Robin Thicke song a few years ago: that one was ruled as plagiarism by the court because even though it was different on paper it had the same vibe and partially the same instruments used as the original song.

The lesson though is that it's really fucking subjective overall because very similar stuff can co-exist independently from each other so you can't just go out and say that "oh, this sounds very similar to that other song so pay x amount of money to that other guy". That wouldn't be realistic especially when something breaks into the zeitgeist, affects everyone and then similar songs come out. The people who make those hit songs usually don't even bother because of that (+ also because they don't care, they already made all the money).

Plagiarism lawsuits on the basis of similar instrumentation should be dismissed entirely.

Zaxx, on 02 October 2019 - 01:04 AM, said:

At the end though I feel this whole plagiarism debate is just a shitty attempt at discrediting the guy who's right in this case simply because it hurts that it's Duke. I should feel sorry for Randy and Duke now because GBX failed to pay for a license? That's what killed the Duke franchise? Fuck no, shitty sequels and shoddy remasters have that effect and it's just really sad that a franchise can fall so far from grace that its fans have to worry about some pocket money that the shitty publisher failed to pay.

I said in my first post that Bobby isn't wrong to sue. And I don't care about any Duke content Randy puts out. I have no issue with another lawsuit that puts the pressure on Randy. The problem is - and this was made clear with the recent Borderlands success - that Randy seems to survive every dart thrown at him. He's a real machiavellian game developer who's playing survival of the fittest.

[Zaxx]

Spitfire, on 02 October 2019 - 04:34 AM, said:

I know you're not a lawyer

[Sledgehammer]

I thought you'd post your diploma.

[Radar]

A diploma is just a piece of paper.

[Zaxx]

What I'm having fun with is the fact that the lawyer thing even came up honestly, I mean wtf, plagiarism is not even a legal term, it's just something the law has to deal with on occasion because the system is such that nobody else can. A judge can't decide if a piece of music is plagiarism or not, really all any lawyer can do is just come up with a conslusion based on the stuff that's presented to him. That's why saying stuff like

Quote

Plagiarism lawsuits on the basis of similar instrumentation should be dismissed entirely.

is stupid because why on Earth would you want to take away even one element from millions of factors that can help in deciding something like that? Sure, you can distinguish stuff like notes being the same but who is the authority on telling how many notes can be identical in a sequence? You can't "measure" subjective shit, you can't separate stuff like the "atmoshpere" or the vibe of a song through some kind of legal fuckery. It's not an exact science at all, usually even the experts used in these cases (you know, the guys that actually decide these questions instead of a lawyer) can't say stuff for sure.

You want my legal opinion? Doom's OST is not plagiarism because no court said that it was. There, now fuck off, that was my professional legal opinion while my "normal person" opinion is that since the soundtrack clearly has its own identity it's clearly not plagiarized.

Quote

A diploma is just a piece of paper.

Yeah, that's what people without diplomas usually say.

[Radar]

Zaxx, on 02 October 2019 - 05:33 AM, said:

What I'm having fun with is the fact that the lawyer thing even came up honestly, I mean wtf, plagiarism is not even a legal term, it's just something the law has to deal with on occasion because the system is such that nobody else can. A judge can't decide if a piece of music is plagiarism or not, really all any lawyer can do is just come up with a conslusion based on the stuff that's presented to him.

A lawyer does not come to a conclusion. A jury comes to a conclusion. A lawyer presents a case.

Zaxx, on 02 October 2019 - 05:33 AM, said:

That's why saying stuff like

is stupid because why on Earth would you want to take away even one element from millions of factors that can help in deciding something like that?

Because an X genre rip-off of a song from Y genre is still a rip-off. But a songwriter who wrote a guitar solo can't sue someone else just because they also wrote a guitar solo.

Zaxx, on 02 October 2019 - 05:33 AM, said:

Sure, you can distinguish stuff like notes being the same but who is the authority on telling how many notes can be identical in a sequence? You can't "measure" subjective shit, you can't separate stuff like the "atmoshpere" or the vibe of a song through some kind of legal fuckery. It's not an exact science at all, usually even the experts used in these cases (you know, the guys that actually decide these questions instead of a lawyer) can't say stuff for sure.

Right, and this is precisely the job of the prosecution and defense team. What I am advocating for is a consistent standard by which music plagiarism is judged.

Zaxx, on 02 October 2019 - 05:33 AM, said:

You want my legal opinion? Doom's OST is not plagiarism because no court said that it was. 

So OJ didn't murder his wife because the court didn't say so?

Zaxx, on 02 October 2019 - 05:33 AM, said:

There, now fuck off, that was my professional legal opinion while my "normal person" opinion is that since the soundtrack clearly has its own identity it's clearly not plagiarized.

Sorry, I know you usually get paid for offering your professional legal opinion. Thank you for your free consultation.

Zaxx, on 02 October 2019 - 05:33 AM, said:

Yeah, that's what people without diplomas usually say.

I have a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science from University of Michigan, Dearborn campus.

What was your major in undergrad? Where did you graduate from law?

[Sledgehammer]

Spoiler

Was it worth it? Mine is kinda the same except I'm closer to being an engineer, but I learned more useful things on my own. The paper was nice though, was useful for my current work.

I heard it's really bad in US (hit and miss), like they don't even teach people the basics so some people can't even solve trivial tasks on job interviews, especially the tasks related to arrays with numbers. Maybe times are just different or most likely it's a new hip to work in IT industry nowadays.

[Zaxx]

Spitfire, on 02 October 2019 - 06:22 AM, said:

A lawyer does not come to a conclusion. A jury comes to a conclusion. A lawyer presents a case.

"Lawyer" is a general term used for everyone who practises law, what you meant to say was attorney. Yes, it is very annoying to correct the same mistakes people make over and over again.

And we don't have juries, that's that shitty thing you guys do in the US. That's why attorneys in court look like dudes doing Powerpoint presentations over there and that's why blatantly obvious mistakes like the OJ case happen.

[Radar]

Sledgehammer, on 02 October 2019 - 06:59 AM, said:

Spoiler

Was it worth it? Mine is kinda the same except I'm closer to being an engineer, but I learned more useful things on my own. The paper was nice though, was useful for my current work.

I heard it's really bad in US (hit and miss), like they don't even teach people the basics so some people can't even solve trivial tasks on job interviews, especially the tasks related to arrays with numbers. Maybe times are just different or most likely it's a new hip to work in IT industry nowadays.

It was good for credentialing and that's it. It landed me a sick job, but it didn't teach me high-level programming or how to pass a job interview. I learned that on my own. I try to be smart though and I didn't let myself graduate with debt (never took out a single loan), so all I really lost was my time. People who graduate with 6 figure student loan debt are the stupidest fvccing people on the planet.

Zaxx, on 02 October 2019 - 07:20 AM, said:

"Lawyer" is a general term used for everyone who practises law, what you meant to say was attorney. Yes, it is very annoying to correct the same mistakes people make over and over again.

And we don't have juries, that's that shitty thing you guys do in the US. That's why attorneys in court look like dudes doing Powerpoint presentations over there and that's why blatantly obvious mistakes like the OJ case happen.

Here in America, consensus is required to put someone behind bars for 25+ years. Sure, sometimes mistakes happen, but at least this weeds out ideologically motivated convictions. Judges who act as jury and executioner is how you get political hit jobs like Tommy Robinson and Alfie Evans over there in Europe.

I ask you again Zax, where did you graduate from law school? Mikko Sandt Online College?

[Player Lin]

NightFright, on 02 October 2019 - 12:06 AM, said:

I guess they'll really end up remapping Lee's tracks to any levels with Prince music and remove everything else. It's easy, fast and another downgrade for the entire edition. Not that Lee's tracks are bad by any means, but each track had been carefully selected to fit the mood of the level before. You can break a lot by choosing the wrong music. But hey, it would be an update for WT again, after quite a long time...

No, if they do that I will DELETE my copy of WT from my Steam account...uh, is that a good idea to say that...?


(At least I still have GOG and Megaton Edition...too bad the AWO episode would be collateral damage. )

[Zaxx]

Spitfire, on 02 October 2019 - 08:27 AM, said:

I ask you again Zax, where did you graduate from law school? Mikko Sandt Online College?

You can ask again because I'm not telling you. You believe what you want, I don't care, the range of personal information I'm willing to share doesn't include my uni.

[Sledgehammer]

So, it's a uni.

[Radar]

ROFL. Ok cringelord.

[Zaxx]

As I've said you believe what you want, honestly in this case it matters even less to me than it usually would (I'm not big on the epenis thing really because there is no way on Earth that you can prove your irl credentials while keeping your anonimity so I never bothered) because I don't know much about plagiarism when it comes to the law. I'm just a layman who likes to read stuff on this matter really so really me being a lawyer or not is totally irrelevant.

There is this misconception about lawyers anyway, this "you're a lawyer so you should know about all the legal stuff" thing. That's not true, you're only amazing at the stuff you deal with while doing your job because there are a lot of different subjects and you simply can't be on the professional level in every single one of them. You wouldn't ask a dentist to do the job of a proctologist even though both of them are doctors, no?

[Radar]

Not big on the epenis thing but you're the one who said you're a lawyer. I'm a pony in real life Zax. Please ride my @$$.

[Sledgehammer]

Spitfire, on 02 October 2019 - 08:18 PM, said:

I'm a pony in real life Zax. Please ride my @$$.

[Jimmy]

If you're under the age of 35 and went to college you're a fucking idiot.

[Radar]

[OpenMaw]

HorseDongSub69, on 04 October 2019 - 12:02 PM, said:

If you're under the age of 35 and went to college you're a fucking idiot.

Woohoo!

I'm only half an idiot.



Have we heard any updates on this bullshit lately?

[Radar]

>Jimmy low-key signaling that he plans on attending college when he's 35.

[Morpheus Kitami]

One thing I don't think I or anyone else brought up during the conversation the first time around is that it was Romero's idea to use metal music in the first place. Prince did one track to show to Romero that it'd be a bad idea, which didn't work out as Prince expected. But that's a moral argument, not a legal one.

[Jimmy]

Radar 100 Watts, on 11 January 2020 - 03:22 PM, said:

>Jimmy low-key signaling that he plans on attending college when he's 35.

Waiting for that shit to be free nigga

[Radar]

HorseDongSub69, on 13 January 2020 - 05:15 PM, said:

Waiting for that shit to be free nigga

You know I actually super low-key agree with Bernie Sanders' debt forgiveness plan. That way federal students loans are obliterated the day that goes into effect, which has been a right-wing objective for years now.