[Mr. Tibbs]

[Zaxx]

Well, that video made the gameplay look boring. Where's the speed, where's the pacing? Those zombies serve no purpose other than to slow down player progression it seems and... uh... why would you do that for an old school shooter?

Also: am I the only one who hates the sound of that fang gun? The weapon is shooting fangs, man, that's a great idea but a generic and stupidly loud "boom-boom" sound puts no emphasis on that, it literally sounds like the original Quake nail gun with a slower firing rate.

[MusicallyInspired]

Yeah, that sound seems wrong.

Gotta say I really like the level layout design, though. Especially the outside. I was a little worried about the inside graveyard parts being too long, too frequent, and samey everywhere but it's not looking that way, especially if the concept art is anything to go by.

As for the rest, I'm just holding out hope that the game will amp up as it goes on.

[johnnythewolf]

Zaxx, on 17 April 2019 - 05:41 PM, said:

Those zombies serve no purpose other than to slow down player progression it seems and... uh... why would you do that for an old school shooter?

Probably because it is fun to gib zombies!

Zaxx, on 17 April 2019 - 05:41 PM, said:

Also: am I the only one who hates the sound of that fang gun? The weapon is shooting fangs, man, that's a great idea but a generic and stupidly loud "boom-boom" sound puts no emphasis on that, it literally sounds like the original Quake nail gun with a slower firing rate.

I love it. Machine guns in both classic and retro shooters tend to sound pretty weak, so it is good to hear one that packs a punch for once.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Zaxx, on 17 April 2019 - 05:41 PM, said:

Well, that video made the gameplay look boring. Where's the speed, where's the pacing? Those zombies serve no purpose other than to slow down player progression it seems and... uh... why would you do that for an old school shooter?

Yup. The zombies are the most boring zombies I've ever seen. I like everything else, but they need to get the gameplay right ASAP.

[Zaxx]

Yeah, I can't really come up with an FPS from the 90s where the trash mobs were this trash. In Blood zombies were pretty fast, their axes hit you hard and they had a nice amount of HP: they were a minor threat but fighting them was fun and blowing up a bunch of them with the TNT was too. In Quake zombies had a projectile attack and you had to blow them to gibs to kill them, that was a lot more interesting than what Wrath has too.

The only similar stuff I can mention is Doom 2016's zombies: they were weak as hell and there was a 0.0% chance that they'll damage you but they had a purpose as "glory kill heath pickups" during combat.

[johnnythewolf]

From what I have played of Blood, the Zombies were anything but fun: in order to save ammo, you have to constantly fight them with the Pitchfork - i.e. the worst, most unsatisfying weapon in the entire game - and most of the time, that will not even kill them and you have to wait for them to get back up so you can start over.

As for the Quake zombies, if you do not have any explosive ammo left, you just cannot kill them, unless there is a convenient Quad Damage item located nearby. Again, not really my idea of fun. And I would rather not get into my strong dislike of Doom 2016 and its decision to make glory kills a core gameplay mechanic among other things.

All in all, I do not see the problem with the WRATH zombies as they are, especially if the weapons you can use against them are all satisfying; it is just one enemy type and being in a retro shooter does not mean they necessarily have to have some annoying quirk.

[Aristotle Gumball]

" KillPixel Games
10 minutes ago
Agreed. this is the last you'll see of the zombies in this manner. I can't reveal anything other than it will be cool  "

[Micky C]

johnnythewolf, on 18 April 2019 - 06:04 AM, said:

From what I have played of Blood, the Zombies were anything but fun: in order to save ammo, you have to constantly fight them with the Pitchfork - i.e. the worst, most unsatisfying weapon in the entire game - and most of the time, that will not even kill them and you have to wait for them to get back up so you can start over.

It sounds like you’re not playing the game as it’s meant to be played. The Blood zombie enemy mechanics have more depth to them than you might have appreciated.

If you shoot them with both barrels of the double barrel shotgun (the alt-fire), it will typically kills them so they stay dead. 2 shotgun shells to kill the zombies doesn’t sound like a waste of ammo to me!
Of course, whenever the game throws a group of them at you, they basically intend for you to throw a stick of dynamite at them.

[johnnythewolf]

You do not get your hands on the shotgun right away, though, and if I recall right, the weapon does not gib zombies anyway. Not exactly satisfying.

And yes, I did throw sticks of dynamite at them, but since they move fast, it is easy to miss or get injured in the process and if I use the alternative fire, to have the dynamite go off too soon or too late.

Blood's Zombies are definitely not the worst zombies in a first-person shooter; that title goes to, Turok 2's Deadmen, as far as I am concerned. However, I still find no enjoyment in fighting them.

[Zaxx]

If a straight line between you and a zombie exists then the zombie will approach you on that route.... how is that hard to hit with a dynamite? And why would you use the alternate fire of the dynamite if there is a straight line of sight between you and an enemy? The dynamite's alt fire is for ambushing cultists basically: you bounce sticks of dynamite off walls so you can attack enemies even if you don't have a line of sight.

It seems like you don't understand the basic mechanics of the game.

[johnnythewolf]

Zaxx, on 19 April 2019 - 06:46 AM, said:

If a straight line between you and a zombie exists then the zombie will approach you on that route.... how is that hard to hit with a dynamite?

Plenty of reasons... For instance, I did not see a zombie coming and I must backtrack and circle-strafe to avoid getting injured by my own dynamite bundle.

Zaxx, on 19 April 2019 - 06:46 AM, said:

And why would you use the alternate fire of the dynamite

To blow up several zombies at once by having the dynamite detonate at the center of the group?

Zaxx, on 19 April 2019 - 06:46 AM, said:

It seems like you don't understand the basic mechanics of the game.

You yourself were describing Blood's Zombies as "pretty fast, their axes hit you hard and they had a nice amount of HP" just a few comments ago.

[Zaxx]

johnnythewolf, on 19 April 2019 - 09:28 PM, said:

Plenty of reasons... For instance, I did not see a zombie coming and I must backtrack and circle-strafe to avoid getting injured by my own dynamite bundle.

Even if an enemy is at point blank range ONE well timed jump backwards will get you out of the dynamite's splash damage. You don't have to do anything fancy, jumping is super powerful in Blood... but with that said I think that anyone with a basic sense of hand-eye coordination can aim while circle strafing.

Quote

To blow up several zombies at once by having the dynamite detonate at the center of the group?

That's not how the alternate fire of the dynamite works at all.

Quote

You yourself were describing Blood's Zombies as "pretty fast, their axes hit you hard and they had a nice amount of HP" just a few comments ago.

My point wasn't that they are tough enemies to fight (they are not) but that they are a lot more interesting than what WRATH's zombies offer. They pack a punch, sure, but they are easy to avoid and kill because Blood's mechanics and weapons are strong, to me that's a well designed "trash mob" in an FPS.

As for me saying that you don't understand the basic mechanics: I did not mean it as an insult, I just stated an obvious fact. If you don't utilize the game mechanics given to you by the developers then you have a lack of understanding of how said mechanics work. That's not a problem by default but it becomes a problem when you come to a false conclusion based on that. Compared to a lot of classic shooters Blood can be a bit weird at first so not getting its flow can happen and that's cool as long as you don't start shitting on it simply because you don't know how to play it.

[johnnythewolf]

Zaxx, on 19 April 2019 - 10:20 PM, said:

Even if an enemy is at point blank range ONE well timed jump backwards will get you out of the dynamite's splash damage. You don't have to do anything fancy, jumping is super powerful in Blood... but with that said I think that anyone with a basic sense of hand-eye coordination can aim while circle strafing.

"Nothing fancy", just something that I would normally never think to do in a classic shooter outside of maybe Serious Sam.

And I am not even going to comment on your suggestion that I somehow cannot aim...

Zaxx, on 19 April 2019 - 10:20 PM, said:

That's not how the alternate fire of the dynamite works at all.

But it does work; you just have to time your throw correctly, which is the annoying part. To be fair to the game, it does give you a Remote Detonator eventually, which makes things considerably easier.

Zaxx, on 19 April 2019 - 10:20 PM, said:

My point wasn't that they are tough enemies to fight (they are not) but that they are a lot more interesting than what WRATH's zombies offer.

But WRATH has a fast zombie variant too: you can even see it on the video's thumbnail image; it is the monster on the left. I reckon it could be made to look more distinct, but it is there.

Zaxx, on 19 April 2019 - 10:20 PM, said:

They pack a punch, sure, but they are easy to avoid and kill because Blood's mechanics and weapons are strong, to me that's a well designed "trash mob" in an FPS.

No every game has to be like Blood and there is nothing wrong with having a basic enemy type that is just there to serve as target practice/figurative punching bag, especially in a game like WRATH where even the basic melee weapon looks super satisfying to use thanks to the dismemberment mechanic.

Zaxx, on 19 April 2019 - 10:20 PM, said:

As for me saying that you don't understand the basic mechanics: I did not mean it as an insult, I just stated an obvious fact. If you don't utilize the game mechanics given to you by the developers then you have a lack of understanding of how said mechanics work. That's not a problem by default but it becomes a problem when you come to a false conclusion based on that. Compared to a lot of classic shooters Blood can be a bit weird at first so not getting its flow can happen and that's cool as long as you don't start shitting on it simply because you don't know how to play it.

"I did not mean it as an insult, yet I am going to double down on talking to you in an insulting and condescending manner!"

And I am not "shitting on" anything here, I just do not find Blood's Zombies to be fun to fight.

[Zaxx]

johnnythewolf, on 20 April 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

"I did not mean it as an insult, yet I am going to double down on talking to you in an insulting and condescending manner!"

How is me saying that based on your comments I'm 100% sure that you don't understand how the game works an insult? That's my conclusion, I'm sorry if it offends you but that's how it is, don't be a fucking snowflake. Hell, I even admitted that Blood is not the easiest FPS to get: your pistol is not a pistol but a flare gun, the gameplay relies unusually heavily on the usage of dynamite, the shotgun's alt fire is really its primary firing mode most of the time etc., it's not as obvious to pick up and play as something like Doom.

Quote

And I am not "shitting on" anything here, I just do not find Blood's Zombies to be fun to fight.

That's what I mean by shitting on it: I mean how can you have a negative opinion on that specific enemy if you don't even know how to approach them? Sure, if you pitchfork them to death every single time then that's shit but you know, that's not how the game plays, it's just a thing you can do in a worst case scenario or at the start of the game where your resources are quite limited.

The same goes for stuff like you saying that jumping backwards never even occured to you. I mean you start playing and the first time you press the jump button it becomes obvious that jumping is king in the game, it's super floaty and covers great distance... and then I'm supposed to say that "sure, your opinion on zombies is a legit argument"? It's fucking not, mate, that's like when I though that Alien Isolation was a shit game because "stealth just doesn't work as it should". Why did I think that? Because I didn't understand the xenomorph's AI so I couldn't utilize the game's mechanics properly, once I figured that out it became an amazing game. I was wrong, not the game, it happens.

[MusicallyInspired]

Here we go...

[johnnythewolf]

johnnythewolf, on 20 April 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

No every game has to be like Blood

Obviously, I meant to say "Not every game" there.

[Master O]

Is Wrath going to be sold on GOG in the future?

[NightFright]

Even more important: Which company or other entity out there might potentially file dubious lawsuits for copyright or trademark infringement?

[MusicallyInspired]

Bed Bath and Beyond?

Actually that would make a neat expansion. Dead, Wrath, and Beyond(/Aeon?).

[Mack]

[Master O]

MusicallyInspired, on 11 June 2019 - 12:53 PM, said:

Bed Bath and Beyond?

Actually that would make a neat expansion. Dead, Wrath, and Beyond(/Aeon?).

Bed Bath and Beyond's lawyers would probably sue, knowing how greedy lawyers generally are.

[MusicallyInspired]

Yes. That was the joke.

[johnnythewolf]

Man, I so wish those playable demos could be made publicly available, not just because I am a sucker for them but also because the level they are showcasing do not always make its way into the final game. That DUSK demo is what convinced me to get the game, as it looked so much cooler (and longer) than the E1M1 we ended up getting.

STRAFE did it and even if the final product turned out to be not so great after all, it was still very much appreciated.

Zaxx, on 20 April 2019 - 10:44 AM, said:

and then I'm supposed to say that "sure, your opinion on zombies is a legit argument"?

Yes!

Again, I just do not find Blood's Zombies to be fun to fight, even when I do it the "right" way, whereas I cannot wait to get my hands on WRATH. That is just my opinion, man!

Zaxx, on 20 April 2019 - 10:44 AM, said:

that's like when I though that Alien Isolation was a shit game because "stealth just doesn't work as it should". Why did I think that? Because I didn't understand the xenomorph's AI so I couldn't utilize the game's mechanics properly, once I figured that out it became an amazing game. I was wrong, not the game, it happens.

I would argue that Alien Isolation is indeed a "shit game" even when played "properly" (to use your terms), but that is a subject for another time...

[Altered Reality]

Mack, on 17 June 2019 - 04:46 PM, said:

Yay! More zombie yawnfest!
3:23 ZOMG that's so totally not a Scrag!
3:48 For a game that claims to take us back to 1990s PC gaming, that soul tether sure reminds me of limited saves on CONSOLES!

[Jim]

Please add a quicksave option to this. Some of us have our gaming time broken into little blocks.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Altered Reality, on 09 July 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

Yay! More zombie yawnfest!
3:23 ZOMG that's so totally not a Scrag!
3:48 For a game that claims to take us back to 1990s PC gaming, that soul tether sure reminds me of limited saves on CONSOLES!

Lol it looks worse every time they show it. I really don't understand what they're going for anymore.

[Altered Reality]

thricecursed, on 11 July 2019 - 01:43 AM, said:

Lol it looks worse every time they show it. I really don't understand what they're going for anymore.

At this point, it's safe to assume they're going for a bland game with purposefully bad graphics and exploit the myth that worse graphics automatically mean more fun and better gameplay.
Let's also add that my 2-days experiment with Darkplaces looks better than that game:

Spoiler

[Aristotle Gumball]

I think Schreiber is missing the point when he says the AI in Quake is extremely simple. You can't look at Quake monsters individually, but as a group. Having to react to all the different movement and attack patterns creates this elegant and hectic dance that few games have been able to replicate. The way they're ramping up combat in this looks almost like Serious Sam, by just throwing lots of the same enemy type at you. Feels very amateurish...

[AlektorophobiA]

The only thing the game has going on so far it's the visuals, to me it looks more visually appealing than something like DUSK (which despite the good gameplay i still think it looks worse than what mid-to-late 90's shooters actually looked like), the metroidvania aspect sounds interesting but we'll have to see how well it's implemented.